Sorry but.. someone who has spent / is spending money on NW, is most likely not going to risk their invested money, by abusing bugs (unless they are plain out stupid, of course). Freeloaders on the other hand are well known to be more 'prone' to giving in to the temptation of abusing glitches / bugs / whatever you may call them, due to said people not having to fear to lose anything, since they can just 'farm' enough AD to gear up a different toon if their main account gets banned. these very people also tend to be the ones complaining the most, for some reason even though they technically have zero rights of doing so.
What i said above, makes perfect sense. Pull your head out of the sand, perhaps you'll see it, too.
You see, neither of the two discussing parties is wrong so to speak. You both simply have really different ideas of what's fun and what's fair.
For embrace it's normal to pay alot of money to gear up in a game, and it's disgusting to him that players can get around the limit 24k AD per day by creating more characters. For him/her it's normal to Pay to Win. It never crossed him as any other way - It's simply cultural differences.
For the others pay to win is not the norm, and they dislike when games supports P2W and it's not possible to make your game successful without dropping alot of money on it - for those players the cash shop should only be extras and cosmetics. Things that don't affect gameplay as they feel gameplay should only be earned trough what you do, not how big your wallet is.
However I think from the volume of voices that the people who think like embrace are minority. I could be wrong since forums aren't truely representative of the actual playerbase though.
Cryptic is going a path that favors players like embrace and not the second, it's a matter of choice.
This discussing was really interesting for me, i don't know for you guys
I am the monk, martial skill transcends the battlefield
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
There are more then enough paying players, that also abuse any bug/exploit they can find ingame.
And there are more then enough F2P players, that obey the rules ingame.
But to say, that only F2P players break rules is indeed stupid. Since there is little to none GM actions taken against anyone breaking the rules ingame, so there is little to none risk to your account.
And btw. i supported the game with the purchase of ZEN, but with what is going on since Elemental Evil, and the upcoming Strongholds, i'm not going to spent another penny for it.
Why?
Because they're ignoring bugs and exploits, they're forcing changes into the game, that make no sense at all, and of course they ignore a lot of good feedback from the players to actually better the game overall.
For a full list, just read the official feedback thread in the feedback forum, and then try to find something important from all that feedback, that actually made it into a patch/update in the last weeks...
Sorry but.. someone who has spent / is spending money on NW, is most likely not going to risk their invested money, by abusing bugs (unless they are plain out stupid, of course). Freeloaders on the other hand are well known to be more 'prone' to giving in to the temptation of abusing glitches / bugs / whatever you may call them, due to said people not having to fear to lose anything, since they can just 'farm' enough AD to gear up a different toon if their main account gets banned. these very people also tend to be the ones complaining the most, for some reason even though they technically have zero rights of doing so.
What i said above, makes perfect sense. Pull your head out of the sand, perhaps you'll see it, too.
Do you live in the real world or some imaginary land? Both groups can and will break the rules.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
0
khimera906Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 898Arc User
LOL, I find this debate ridiculous. I'm a paying player, and ar the same time I find P2W, in what's supposed to be a F2P game, disgusting. Am I allowed to complain if I'm progressing my characters through in-game means, and I'm only paying real money to customize my characters? I have a leadership army of 10 characters, but also spend money on the Zen Store. Am I allowed to complain?
Here's a little fact: there is no game without the "freeloaders". It is a free to play game, they're still advertising it as such. The very fact that P2W is even possible is a failure of the game. Everyone is in title to complain because everyone is contributing in some way.
I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
Cryptic are heading towards the right direction, away from the non paying crowd (leeches/smartphone zombies) and that is not a thing one should be complaining about, in fact we should apreciate the effort that Cryptic are finally putting into the issue. In the long run, it is going to benefit the game, since it creates more $$$ for the company. The freeloaders are the zits on Neverwinter's butt, now all the devs have to do is pop them 1 by 1.
So please... stop the crying, start playing.
They are heading down the path of a server shutdown. Not many are playing anymore. No one is crying and no one is playing Neverwinter...... except the bots that moved in game and lagging it to hell.
I'll add my 2 bits in. been playing MMO's for over a decade and a half now. I am certainly not young...my teenage son can attest to that. I've been in sub based MMO's, f2p, freemium, p2w...you name it. I've seen MMO's laud hysterical claims about what they expect to do, and fall flat on their face. I've seen MMO's that surprised you when they suddenly skyrocket. Oh, and I apologize for the length hehe...I just got off on the subject and realized I wrote a novel. it's a good read though...
When I first started Neverwinter (open beta), I saw many things about its design and architecture that concerned me. The kinds of things that do not provide for a solid foundation for an MMO to really grow and sustain. But there were so many good ideas born here that I stayed and played. and paid. I'm the kind of guy that supports the things he gets benefits out of. I'm the guy that clicks on donate links for apps when I feel they are worth it.
I regularly have 2-3 subscriptions in MMO's with sub models (right now for me that is SWtOR and FFXIV). I also use cash shops consistently and have no problems spending multiple months worth of Sub prices in them. Heck, I often even put money outside my sub into the cash shop in SWtOR.
I'm only saying this to point out that I'm not a stingy guy when it comes to supporting good games.
Having said that, in all honestly....I have problems with putting money into the cash shop in this game.
I can't say that its a good design. the XP curve post 60 is designed to force you into buying their overpriced exp boosts from the cash shop. prices for critical items in game are high enough that you either have to grind incessantly, and sell incessantly, to keep up, or simply go without. This is the first game that I've felt like they almost didn't want me to level past 60...sort of like a hidden sub fee. "up to 60 you can do, but after that were gonna make you pay". I've actually stopped invoking on my alts....they're leveling up too fast, and I realize that once I hit 60, it's all going to change. So I'm reserving them for actually enjoying the game.
If the content was rewarding...if the grind was competitive...I would have been OK with that. FFXIV just released a new expansion, and the grind through the new 10 levels was more then many expected. They changed it a bit, but overall it wasn't a horrible experience at all. it was slow...but I enjoyed it. I dread leveling in this game post 60...and I do NOT look forward to the slot machine progress once I get there. I have 3 lvl 60+ toons, and so far they are 61, 61 and 62. IM not even doing the new content, I'm just trying to catch up on the old. and a few of those are halfway done with a few campaigns that I can't even do now, since they bumped them up to 70.
When I see good design in a game, with interesting story and well executed progression, that's the kind of game that makes me want to spend money in their cash shop. When I see an entire expansion locked behind a specific playstyle, and players forced into following on this mold to even progress in the game, I lose my desire to play.
PWE is getting no more money from me. I have put plenty of money into their coffers prior to mod4 (probably enough to pay for a full sub up through that time), and what I got for it is a game with all the broken stuff still broken, a worse experience once you reach 60, and once you reach 70, you won't be able to do any of the new content unless your running with a guild behind you (and of course, guild size is going to be really impacting on this as well, so the small guilds are out of luck.) hmm...yeh, no. This isn't some backwater world where there is only one MMO to play. There are at least a half dozen f2p model MMO's out there that are going in a much better direction. It's a competitive playfield, but PWE act's like their the only game in town.
I hope that PWE and cryptic can turn it around. In spite of my negativity, This game holds some promise. The presence I've seen in the forums this last few weeks of customer reps is hopeful. But I've seen far too many MMO's that don't change regardless of whether or not they put a customer service face out there. Unless the communications are followed up on by change...it's just another marketing ploy. And I'm too old to buy into those anymore.
Embrace...I understand your devotion to the game. There are still MMO's out there that I enjoyed and loved so much I will still defend to my dying day. Even if I don't' play them anymore (LotRO was one of those for me....I so wish I could go back to the Mines of Moria days!). But you have to understand that the people dissatisfied with this game aren't just freeloaders...there are plenty of people like me who have CASH to invest in a game, and HAVE invested cash in neverwinter in the past. Right now, Neverwinter isn't worth it for me, in spite of the many aspects of the Game that I enjoy.
You know...it's interesting. A while back I watched a video about Linux and Red Hat. If you don't know who they are, they're a company that publishes a packaged "install and go" version of Linux. Which is odd since most Linux is open source. But in the interview they mentioned that they realized a long time ago that they key to success in their industry wasn't trying to sell a product that others were offering for free...but it was to sell their support and services. and make their package of free stuff better then everyone else's free stuff.
And it worked. Google did something very similar with their search engines, as well as their OS (android), and they literally changed the market. Literally. Multi-national communications companies are now following suit...Its not about product anymore....That's not good enough. What you have to do is sell your services, and make your product so polished and so inviting that people want your selection...even in a free market.
MMO's that have figured this out are growing and profiting. Marvel Heroes, GW2, and SWtOR are a few I can name personally that I've experienced that understand this concept and are delivering. and their customer bases are growing, not shrinking. PWE needs to get the point too...or they will become a dinosaur like the others that have come before them.
Heck, even Microsoft is labeling their future as the future of services, not selling a product. Windows 10 is free right now...and they don't plan on building another OS. A company the size of Microsoft has actually figured this out too...I'm hoping that PWE gets it before it's too late.
A company the size of Microsoft has actually figured this out too...I'm hoping that PWE gets it before it's too late.
Your awesome post was here. Just summed it up to save space.
Bravo sir. Bravo. I have made many posts (similar in size to yours) trying to get these very same points across to PWE and Cryptic. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem they want to hear it from me, because most of mine end up deleted. So, quite a while ago, I got the hint. PWE and Cryptic don't want to hear from players that are willing to pay them REASONABLE sums of money. They only want to hear how awesome they are from players that are willing to pay them thousands of dollars every time they come out with a new module.
I hope they listen to you, and many others, that are literally screaming the same thing at them. If not, as you say, there are lots of other games in town.
Appreciation to you, from me, and the others that are trying to get them to turn this runaway train around before it goes off the tracks for good.
Peace and well spoken sir.
Telling us about upcoming content updates, and getting those updates out the door BUG-FREE, is *AWESOME*!! Know what's even *MORE* awesome? Fixing game breaking bugs (and/or undocumented "features") that have been in EXISTING content for months/years!!! Guess which one makes me want to spend money on a game much more than the other? Hint: It's the "more awesome" one.
Brilliantly said Temji. I'm going to highlight your post in the main post. Nice one
I am the monk, martial skill transcends the battlefield
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
While your 2 examples (M$ and google) do have a pricetag in the form of lack of privacy, the idea is 100% solid.
The problems here are change, and the fear and uncertainty it brings. You see it in the music industry as well. Instead of actively selling quality downloads at reasonable prices, they've spent the last 20 years fighting downloads, increasing CD/DVD prices and paying the artists less and less. They are stuck in their ways. If it weren't for services like ITunes, they probably still wouldn't offer any downloads themselves.
The gaming/software industry is no different. It's not used to selling services. It wants to sell products and preferably those that players need on a frequent basis. Some games hesitantly glance towards that direction, GW2 and MH being 2 examples. From what I've seen from ESO, they are taking a slightly different, yet similar approach. But it will take time before the industry changes and realizes their current ways are out-of-date. I think for the next 5-6 years we'll still be seeing the old sales model but it should be fewer and fewer. Anyone who hasn't adapted by then will probably not have many players. It's not the strong or rich that will survive. It'll be the ones that are most able to adapt to what people want that will remain standing in the end.
Excellent points on M$ and gurgle. I actually bring up Google all the time to the kids to remind them that Nothing is really free in our market. Free is just another marketing approach.
It's interesting to see the battles going on with the music industry. The internet has changed so much that the old systems are making way for new systems, and I agree with you...It is an evolution of an industry.
When your the only gas station in town, you can charge whatever you want. but when you are only one of 10, and they all are offering their Gas for free...there's not much wiggle room for competition in the price itself. so the profits need to come from somewhere.
ESO is going to be interesting. I actually played it for almost 2 days non stop when it first came out I was too hooked! I hit level cap, and the VR grind (and design of end game) literally killed my motivation in about a week. I leveled a few alts, and decided to drop my sub. They're a real good example of what happens when you think you can slot players into a play style, and have it work. it wasn't a year after launch, and they were already drastically changing the end game. I've been tempted with all the changes to go back and try it again (haven't played since they redid VR levels). Still not sure if I want to pay the sub, or wait till it goes Fp2. I just remember back in the forums when they had quotes saying they had no plans for going to f2p on game launch, and that they felt they had a product that was worth a sub. I guess the market changed their mind .
On an ironic side note...FFXIV is still going strong with a sub model. I remember the conversations from Yoshi back then, after the whole 1.0 fiasco, when he took al his dev's and made them play other successful MMO's. they applied what they learned...and to this day it's a sub game that's still going strong. Sub's work when you give people a reason to sub, just like Cash shop's work when you give people a reason to buy.
I love your last statement. That in a nutshell defines the networking industry of the last 20 years.
On an ironic side note...FFXIV is still going strong with a sub model. I remember the conversations from Yoshi back then, after the whole 1.0 fiasco, when he took al his dev's and made them play other successful MMO's. they applied what they learned...and to this day it's a sub game that's still going strong. Sub's work when you give people a reason to sub, just like Cash shop's work when you give people a reason to buy.
I love your last statement. That in a nutshell defines the networking industry of the last 20 years.
This is the reason alot of player suggestions are so good - they come from otehr games that've done that, and it worked really well over there
I am the monk, martial skill transcends the battlefield
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
I'll add my 2 bits in. been playing MMO's for over a decade and a half now. I am certainly not young...my teenage son can attest to that. I've been in sub based MMO's, f2p, freemium, p2w...you name it. I've seen MMO's laud hysterical claims about what they expect to do, and fall flat on their face. I've seen MMO's that surprised you when they suddenly skyrocket. Oh, and I apologize for the length hehe...I just got off on the subject and realized I wrote a novel. it's a good read though...
When I first started Neverwinter (open beta), I saw many things about its design and architecture that concerned me. The kinds of things that do not provide for a solid foundation for an MMO to really grow and sustain. But there were so many good ideas born here that I stayed and played. and paid. I'm the kind of guy that supports the things he gets benefits out of. I'm the guy that clicks on donate links for apps when I feel they are worth it.
I regularly have 2-3 subscriptions in MMO's with sub models (right now for me that is SWtOR and FFXIV). I also use cash shops consistently and have no problems spending multiple months worth of Sub prices in them. Heck, I often even put money outside my sub into the cash shop in SWtOR.
I'm only saying this to point out that I'm not a stingy guy when it comes to supporting good games.
Having said that, in all honestly....I have problems with putting money into the cash shop in this game.
I can't say that its a good design. the XP curve post 60 is designed to force you into buying their overpriced exp boosts from the cash shop. prices for critical items in game are high enough that you either have to grind incessantly, and sell incessantly, to keep up, or simply go without. This is the first game that I've felt like they almost didn't want me to level past 60...sort of like a hidden sub fee. "up to 60 you can do, but after that were gonna make you pay". I've actually stopped invoking on my alts....they're leveling up too fast, and I realize that once I hit 60, it's all going to change. So I'm reserving them for actually enjoying the game.
If the content was rewarding...if the grind was competitive...I would have been OK with that. FFXIV just released a new expansion, and the grind through the new 10 levels was more then many expected. They changed it a bit, but overall it wasn't a horrible experience at all. it was slow...but I enjoyed it. I dread leveling in this game post 60...and I do NOT look forward to the slot machine progress once I get there. I have 3 lvl 60+ toons, and so far they are 61, 61 and 62. IM not even doing the new content, I'm just trying to catch up on the old. and a few of those are halfway done with a few campaigns that I can't even do now, since they bumped them up to 70.
When I see good design in a game, with interesting story and well executed progression, that's the kind of game that makes me want to spend money in their cash shop. When I see an entire expansion locked behind a specific playstyle, and players forced into following on this mold to even progress in the game, I lose my desire to play.
PWE is getting no more money from me. I have put plenty of money into their coffers prior to mod4 (probably enough to pay for a full sub up through that time), and what I got for it is a game with all the broken stuff still broken, a worse experience once you reach 60, and once you reach 70, you won't be able to do any of the new content unless your running with a guild behind you (and of course, guild size is going to be really impacting on this as well, so the small guilds are out of luck.) hmm...yeh, no. This isn't some backwater world where there is only one MMO to play. There are at least a half dozen f2p model MMO's out there that are going in a much better direction. It's a competitive playfield, but PWE act's like their the only game in town.
I hope that PWE and cryptic can turn it around. In spite of my negativity, This game holds some promise. The presence I've seen in the forums this last few weeks of customer reps is hopeful. But I've seen far too many MMO's that don't change regardless of whether or not they put a customer service face out there. Unless the communications are followed up on by change...it's just another marketing ploy. And I'm too old to buy into those anymore.
Embrace...I understand your devotion to the game. There are still MMO's out there that I enjoyed and loved so much I will still defend to my dying day. Even if I don't' play them anymore (LotRO was one of those for me....I so wish I could go back to the Mines of Moria days!). But you have to understand that the people dissatisfied with this game aren't just freeloaders...there are plenty of people like me who have CASH to invest in a game, and HAVE invested cash in neverwinter in the past. Right now, Neverwinter isn't worth it for me, in spite of the many aspects of the Game that I enjoy.
You know...it's interesting. A while back I watched a video about Linux and Red Hat. If you don't know who they are, they're a company that publishes a packaged "install and go" version of Linux. Which is odd since most Linux is open source. But in the interview they mentioned that they realized a long time ago that they key to success in their industry wasn't trying to sell a product that others were offering for free...but it was to sell their support and services. and make their package of free stuff better then everyone else's free stuff.
And it worked. Google did something very similar with their search engines, as well as their OS (android), and they literally changed the market. Literally. Multi-national communications companies are now following suit...Its not about product anymore....That's not good enough. What you have to do is sell your services, and make your product so polished and so inviting that people want your selection...even in a free market.
MMO's that have figured this out are growing and profiting. Marvel Heroes, GW2, and SWtOR are a few I can name personally that I've experienced that understand this concept and are delivering. and their customer bases are growing, not shrinking. PWE needs to get the point too...or they will become a dinosaur like the others that have come before them.
Heck, even Microsoft is labeling their future as the future of services, not selling a product. Windows 10 is free right now...and they don't plan on building another OS. A company the size of Microsoft has actually figured this out too...I'm hoping that PWE gets it before it's too late.
I am in the same demographic as Temju, with the same gaming experience. Temju's post said succinctly much of my own observations. I too, have spent plenty of money in this game. I've personally come to the conclusion that I don't like the pure F2P model. They are almost always disingenuous.
In my opinion, the smarter model for the west is a hybrid premium model with no hidden costs. This game is full of hidden costs.
Like Temju noted, I loved the initial product, and I of course, grew up playing D&D on PnP. I keep checking back on these forms, hoping to see the positive signs of change from Cryptic. I don't expect immediate changes, but it would be reassuring to hear from the development team about real, substantive changes they are in the process of making, that addresses the players concerns.
At this point, I've come to the conclusion, that there short-cycle business models governs the entirety of their thinking, to the point, that player retention isn't really a concern to them. Their betting on short-term revenue from new players, for a short period of time.
I am also left with the impression that they take brand loyalty for granted. They expect that, those of us who are disenfranchised, will just "go away", and new players will just accept current conditions as they are.
I am reminded of a quote by one of their executives. I'll paraphrase: "There is always a drop in population after launch, but the players who stay, you can't get rid of". Admittedly, that quote is out of context, but it still leaves me with a certain impression.
At this point, my faith in Cryptic is extremely nil. I am hoping that will change.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
tl;dr version, "skin in the game" theories are wrong.
See, people are thinking that people follow the sunk-cost fallacy.
Sunk cost fallacy: "Oh, I can't stop now, I've already put so much money into it!" Lots of people fall into that.
Reverse of that: "Oh, I can't risk things now, I've already put so much money into it!"
People are only marginalists when it involves taking on additional risk; when it involves taking on less risk, well, people suddenly go all sunk-cost mentality. What a shame. I guess the point is, the people with 6k invested can "make more by cheating than by not cheating" so they cheat. The 6k they spent? That's already gone. They're not getting it back. And what's the utility of an account that's NOT as amazing as theoretically possible? None. Because you only spend 6k to be the best evaaaaar!!! so deciding not to be the best (around, never gonna keep you down~) is basically wasting that money. At least if you cheat to be the bestest, you have a chance of not getting caught.
And if you are caught and lose everything? Move on to the next game.
tl;dr version 2, the incentive structure of "paying customers don't cheat" is, unfortunately, wrong.
that someone opened this thread. And to have a moderator chime in and say keep it civil makes me smile.
Far as answering the main Q of the thread...Is Cryptic alienating there playerbase? I Would have to say yes. Perhaps in some aspects with good reason i.e. botters, etc. But, I fail to see how anything beneficial can be accomplished with changed to systems like the gateway.
1) Botters and the economy:
To stop botting you'll need manpower. Plain and simple. Having people working for cryptic sitting at botting entry points like Ghost stories in Neverdeath Graveyard catching bots entering/exiting, researching accounts, and banning MAC addresses would be a winning solution. MAC address spoofing can be done, but the real MAC is always in there you just have to know where to look. It would be a rather time consuming process, but in the end well worth it to once and for all rid yourselves of those that wish to cheat to get ahead.
Then being able to refocus and make the game rewarding for those that play it legit would just come easy.
But in the meantime though Cryptic would need to have people replicating items and posting them on the markets so the market doesn't crash. Cause while we all hate botters...let's face it....they do help keep prices on things like 99 stacks of rank 5 enchantments down. It would in fact be a good idea to be doing this even now though on certain high end items like Trans weapon/armor enchants, etc. People want to have nice things, but don't and won't spend upwards of $60 to get them for one character to be able to use them.
Let's look at another cryptic project called Star Trek Online. I would say without looking at numbers that Star Trek has a better handle on the economy and keeps botters out because of it. Why? Well....for starters....there main daily limited currency is dilithium (astral diamonds) which is used to refine and upgrade items to higher levels and may be converted into Zen to buy Zen store items. But is not used in the player trading process aka the Exchange (auctionhouse). Instead they use another currency for player to player trades in the auction house called Energy Credits (gold). There Duty officer assignments (profession tasks) don't reward players with very much Energy Credits (gold), and is also earned from playing content. Hence keeping higher end items a task of saving over time. Whilst keeping some items available on from the Zen store. And too there is no 50 characters per account ridiculousness allowed. Who has time to actually play 50 characters in at least 1 dungeon/pvp domination a day?? No one. But you want that flashy new ship from the Zen store only then you have to spend time playing those different characters that you do have collecting that dilithium and saving up to be able to convert it into Zen. There dilithium to zen ratio hovers below 300 dilithium to 1 zen with a daily refine limit of 8k per character.
Huge changes, lots of work, but in the end would be worth it by far.
2) Exp requirements and overflow rewards:
Oh dear what a grind it was getting my CW to level 70 from 60 BEFORE the recent exp changes. Getting my DC from 60-70 after the recent changes...omg it was awful. Doing repetitive task is not fun. So the rewards for doing the task once should be much higher than they are now. 100+ vigilance task most of them 2-3 time repeats. -.- Not fun. Futhermore...I get the storyline from doing it once. And on overflow...let me summarize that neatly to say...I got multiple characters because I enjoy multiple play styles, but getting those multiple characters rank 4 abilities of just the things I want them to have....impossible. I'm not buying something to advance me forward faster so I can have a chance to get a power point either. Now...give me the option to outright buy the power point and we can discuss that, but again...multiple characters...multiple abilities wanted to be rank 4...and not spending a ridiculous amount for anything. I wouldn't spend $60 between getting 2 characters 8 rank 4 abilities each. But, would I maybe spend $30 or sacrifice my astral diamonds for a few weeks (2 at most 3) to get it guaranteed...yea.
3) High end item's costs
If the economy as a whole was changed in this game like the above I mentioned then I just couldn't see someone having to spend upwards of $100 on a trans enchantment. Because to get a lesser enchantment could come from a lockbox or outright purchase on the Zen store or purchase in gold from trade house then refining it up to trans would take time collecting refinement points and the astral diamonds to use those refinement points. While being totally doable on one character because doing the dailies from Rhix on one character actually doesn't take a century to do, is rewarding enough, and I believe still would be on par for above mentioned economy changes. Put less thaumaturgic stones on the Zen store in a stack of 10 for like $1.25 and have it cost 250 astral diamonds or so to be applied to a lesser weapon/armor enchantment. Bingo. You just replicated what STO done that has seemingly been successful.
4) Bug fixes and player requested changes:
Bugs happen. I get that. I understand that it is humans programming these machines. It just takes a shorter process: Identify, justify, and rectify.
I don't know why there aren't more Polls on these forums for do you think this could use to be toned down. That would quickly, efficiently reach a mass consensus among players of yup we don't like this and would like to see it changed or yup love it and right on par with what I expect. Once you get that feedback, get it done and keep it moving. No need to waste time talking more about that.
Ending: All the above would come down to spending money to make money. I could only fathom how many old players would come back responding to an ad campaign of a revamped Neverwinter and how many new players would be more inclined to check it out.
At this point, and looking at the several Dev blogs about Strongholds, i think the answer to the thread question is simply:
Yes.
And as mentioned, i doubt that we will see any bug/exploit fixes in patches/updates after August 11th, since the Devs might be working full time on Underdark by then.
And if someone doesn't trust the Steam Charts to show that the game is losing players, take a good look at the items offered in the auction house.
A lot less being offered, while the prices for those few items are going up. I'm curious to see how this will turn out in a few weeks or months from now...
I do believe in killing the messenger...
Want to know why?
Because it sends a message!
0
silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
Legit channel used to average 300 every time I logged in, we are down to about half that.. on peak times you would see 600+ at times, now maybe 200+ at peak times.
When you only have 150 players willing to not cheat on at even given hour, how can a game be played!
Some of the most well known players have left for the other game, their explanation is not that the other game is better, its that its PROGRESS-ABLE by playing the game..
your grind gating EVERYTHING in game to the point of extremeness is insanity. Stop monetizing everything.. your just loosing players that would pay you for other things! My alts no longer matter, so alts stop buying companions. Ill tell you up front, I WILL never, NEVER buy a experience grind token from you, or any other game.. ever! What a sad, SAD testimony to the mmo history of games that you did this.
Ive spent money here.. as much as some others? maybe not, but a few hundred dollars isnt nothing, and now you have lost a few hundred more I probably wouldve spent. I consider myself a average MMO player/spender, who plays these games for entertainment instead of TV.. Im willing to give you some of my dollars in return for enjoyment.. when you make things so boring, why would I give you my money?
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
Mandatory disclaimer: this is all just speculation, not point of fact.
I reiterate, you guys need to stop thinking that Cryptic is trying to maximize long term profits in this. They're probably stuck in certain licensing restrictions, and are trying to keep following by their contractual obligations with minimum net expenditures. They could invest a lot of time effort and resources into the game and possibly turn out a profit, but that's a high risk venture. Letting the game just sort of trudge along, being neither a huge drain on resources nor a major profit center, is a low risk low return strategy. Of course that strategy alienates players, but, well, that's kind of the point.
From a corporate finance standpoint, I don't blame them. Neverwinter's combat system is fundamentally interesting, but it's kind of a novelty thing. I don't know that you can really support an MMO on novelty. The same goes for the IP attached to it; the people who like Neverwinter are single player game fans, so I'm not sure where they were going with that. But that IP becomes a straight jacket deciding what they can and can't do with the game, including, I imagine, shutting it down entirely. So what do you do when you've decided that your game can't be made great (or at the very least, that the resource expenditure to make the game great can't be justified by the risk associated with said investment)? You cut your losses as much as possible.
Everything needs to be considered from a "cutting costs" perspective. Increasing the number of players isn't the goal. The goal is making sure that players aren't a net drain on resources. So the kinds of suggestions that would work are those that reduce the net resources that Cryptic has to put into the game. Gateway leadership down? Great, that's less work for the servers-maybe it'll drive of some players who operate from the Gateway solely, and don't spend any money on the game. Of course, for those people who weren't logging in before, but now are logging in, it's more load on the server, so it might be a net wash.
Suggestions people make for improving the game need to keep this cost cutting ideology in mind. How can Cryptic do more with less.
But, again, this is all wild speculation. I don't want to feed misinformation.
there are many changes they can make that don't require much effort at all, so I don't believe they are just cutting losses. Like for example the low experience gain from 60 to 70, people have been complaining about it since quite a while and they don't want to change it for whatever might be their own reasons.
The reasons are the new XP booster, and those are probably selling... otherwise they would have reacted on all the feedback about XP allready.
That's a fair point. It would also explain why the XP requirements haven't been adjusted to a more sensible level.
A shame that this is only going to be a short term bonus for them and that they cant see the harm it'll do in the long run
Well in answer to what is discussion is about, they are not winning any friends in this camp. An yes Im a player who buys stuff a lot of stuff, re companions mounts, packs etc. Currently have 8 toons- one for each class and all the mages who could look after themselves prior to the drowned shore get almost instant wacked by those hunter lizards, you pick on 3 and 4 come out of nowhere and then 3 other spawns just appear, like clockwork.. and stuff me if you just have to go past some to finish one quest. And the other thing that really irritates is the way a normal quest route just happens to have a epic event in way which you cant avoid and end up getting caught up in. So either die, or spend 5min plus doing something you didnt want to do and most times its at the end of the timer so you miss out even if holding your own by your self.
ONE thing seems obvious.... the devs cant play the game, otherwise there would be no way they would expect the player base to put up with some of the BS we are expected to since Mod 6 was introduced.
1- 60 great above that with Mod 6, just well not fun...
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
AVERAGE mmo user players 25 hours a week.
Take the average time frame to just GRIND out rp, would = around 300 hours give or take and you did NOTHING else for 20 out of the 25 hours a week of playing would = 15 weeks of pure torture or 2.1 months of NOTHING ELSE of playing other then grinding RP for artifacts.. Did you get that, over 2 months of mind numbing boringness to grind out RP..
Let alone the AD and EXP gating and the overflow gating and the effing other gating they add every other week into this game.
This is supposed to be fun, not a full time job.
This game went downhill due to the amount of grinding and gating they put into the game.
This game went downhill due to the amount of grinding and gating they put into the game.
Sadly this is the new face of Neverwinter. I do appreciate a moderator actually responding. Makes me wonder if the developers read posts like this too.
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kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
This game went downhill due to the amount of grinding and gating they put into the game.
Sadly this is the new face of Neverwinter. I do appreciate a moderator actually responding. Makes me wonder if the developers read posts like this too.
I'm pretty sure that they do.
I would also like to add that while I don't have BiS anything, I still can do just about anything in the game I want to do. And I don't play full time like a lot of players do. I simply don't have the time anymore. I usually play for an hour or 2 every day. My personal opinion, and it may not be the popular one, is that people are too worried about getting their stuff to legendary or mythic quality. While that is nice to have, it is not needed and the stuff is just going to be replaced with next expansion anyway (probably will always be true, as most MMOs do this). So just worry about getting it up as high as you have time for, and try to have fun in the game while doing it.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
Im sorry, but if you REMOVE the cheating and exploits, at least 50% of all t2 runs wouldnt be done, so yes, I view getting stuff to legendary is at least a part of progress to be able to play the game.
or.. post me a ENTIRE group doing ECC legit with all sub 2.5k.. etos is the only thing even close to being done legit with normal average groups.
I would also like to add that while I don't have BiS anything, I still can do just about anything in the game I want to do. And I don't play full time like a lot of players do. I simply don't have the time anymore. I usually play for an hour or 2 every day. My personal opinion, and it may not be the popular one, is that people are too worried about getting their stuff to legendary or mythic quality. While that is nice to have, it is not needed and the stuff is just going to be replaced with next expansion anyway (probably will always be true, as most MMOs do this). So just worry about getting it up as high as you have time for, and try to have fun in the game while doing it.
I actually agree with the sentiment here, but that is part of the big reason I'm "alienated" - because I want to play a game where I have other things to worry about than grinding RP. Getting gear up to legendary or mythic quality shouldn't be the be-all end-all of the late game, but unfortunately it has been made that way by design decisions in this game. I'd much rather be worried about trying to run dungeons and explore new areas with my friends or accrue more power points to try out different powers and builds on my character than whether or not I'm grinding enough RP, but the game is *not* at all friendly to that mentality.
Dungeon content was cut significantly, and no new ones have been introduced nor are they hinting at when they'll be back except to say "not Mod 7". (I know I sound like a broken record here but this is HUGE - end-game raids/dungeons are a huge component of end-game goals in many other MMORPGs)
New areas are incredibly repetitive and grindy, not to mention level progression in the end-game slows to an absolute crawl. It's more impactful to my character to grind for RP than it is to grind for levels past 70, and that's saying something.
No solid way to participate in the only large group content (Tiamat) as a group other than to try 'timing it' properly.
If want to dump time (and not money) into the game, there really is only one outlet for me to do so - and that's grinding out RP/XP/AD. There are very, very few 'rare drops' a la WoW that you can try to hunt down in dungeons, and none whatsoever in the world at large (Time Lost Proto Drake, anyone?).
Mod 7 hopefully adds a bit more goals to aim for once you hit endgame if you're in a guild, but doesn't help with the idea of having options for less-grind oriented end game goals.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be any grind - it's an MMO after all. But it would be nice to have something to do OTHER than grind, and sadly of late this game seems to be less and less concerned with that and more and more with making the current state very hospitable to trying to "buy your way out of it".
Comments
You see, neither of the two discussing parties is wrong so to speak. You both simply have really different ideas of what's fun and what's fair.
For embrace it's normal to pay alot of money to gear up in a game, and it's disgusting to him that players can get around the limit 24k AD per day by creating more characters. For him/her it's normal to Pay to Win. It never crossed him as any other way - It's simply cultural differences.
For the others pay to win is not the norm, and they dislike when games supports P2W and it's not possible to make your game successful without dropping alot of money on it - for those players the cash shop should only be extras and cosmetics. Things that don't affect gameplay as they feel gameplay should only be earned trough what you do, not how big your wallet is.
However I think from the volume of voices that the people who think like embrace are minority. I could be wrong since forums aren't truely representative of the actual playerbase though.
Cryptic is going a path that favors players like embrace and not the second, it's a matter of choice.
This discussing was really interesting for me, i don't know for you guys
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
And there are more then enough F2P players, that obey the rules ingame.
But to say, that only F2P players break rules is indeed stupid. Since there is little to none GM actions taken against anyone breaking the rules ingame, so there is little to none risk to your account.
And btw. i supported the game with the purchase of ZEN, but with what is going on since Elemental Evil, and the upcoming Strongholds, i'm not going to spent another penny for it.
Why?
Because they're ignoring bugs and exploits, they're forcing changes into the game, that make no sense at all, and of course they ignore a lot of good feedback from the players to actually better the game overall.
For a full list, just read the official feedback thread in the feedback forum, and then try to find something important from all that feedback, that actually made it into a patch/update in the last weeks...
Do you live in the real world or some imaginary land? Both groups can and will break the rules.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
Here's a little fact: there is no game without the "freeloaders". It is a free to play game, they're still advertising it as such. The very fact that P2W is even possible is a failure of the game. Everyone is in title to complain because everyone is contributing in some way.
They are heading down the path of a server shutdown. Not many are playing anymore. No one is crying and no one is playing Neverwinter...... except the bots that moved in game and lagging it to hell.
When I first started Neverwinter (open beta), I saw many things about its design and architecture that concerned me. The kinds of things that do not provide for a solid foundation for an MMO to really grow and sustain. But there were so many good ideas born here that I stayed and played. and paid. I'm the kind of guy that supports the things he gets benefits out of. I'm the guy that clicks on donate links for apps when I feel they are worth it.
I regularly have 2-3 subscriptions in MMO's with sub models (right now for me that is SWtOR and FFXIV). I also use cash shops consistently and have no problems spending multiple months worth of Sub prices in them. Heck, I often even put money outside my sub into the cash shop in SWtOR.
I'm only saying this to point out that I'm not a stingy guy when it comes to supporting good games.
Having said that, in all honestly....I have problems with putting money into the cash shop in this game.
I can't say that its a good design. the XP curve post 60 is designed to force you into buying their overpriced exp boosts from the cash shop. prices for critical items in game are high enough that you either have to grind incessantly, and sell incessantly, to keep up, or simply go without. This is the first game that I've felt like they almost didn't want me to level past 60...sort of like a hidden sub fee. "up to 60 you can do, but after that were gonna make you pay". I've actually stopped invoking on my alts....they're leveling up too fast, and I realize that once I hit 60, it's all going to change. So I'm reserving them for actually enjoying the game.
If the content was rewarding...if the grind was competitive...I would have been OK with that. FFXIV just released a new expansion, and the grind through the new 10 levels was more then many expected. They changed it a bit, but overall it wasn't a horrible experience at all. it was slow...but I enjoyed it. I dread leveling in this game post 60...and I do NOT look forward to the slot machine progress once I get there. I have 3 lvl 60+ toons, and so far they are 61, 61 and 62. IM not even doing the new content, I'm just trying to catch up on the old. and a few of those are halfway done with a few campaigns that I can't even do now, since they bumped them up to 70.
When I see good design in a game, with interesting story and well executed progression, that's the kind of game that makes me want to spend money in their cash shop. When I see an entire expansion locked behind a specific playstyle, and players forced into following on this mold to even progress in the game, I lose my desire to play.
PWE is getting no more money from me. I have put plenty of money into their coffers prior to mod4 (probably enough to pay for a full sub up through that time), and what I got for it is a game with all the broken stuff still broken, a worse experience once you reach 60, and once you reach 70, you won't be able to do any of the new content unless your running with a guild behind you (and of course, guild size is going to be really impacting on this as well, so the small guilds are out of luck.) hmm...yeh, no. This isn't some backwater world where there is only one MMO to play. There are at least a half dozen f2p model MMO's out there that are going in a much better direction. It's a competitive playfield, but PWE act's like their the only game in town.
I hope that PWE and cryptic can turn it around. In spite of my negativity, This game holds some promise. The presence I've seen in the forums this last few weeks of customer reps is hopeful. But I've seen far too many MMO's that don't change regardless of whether or not they put a customer service face out there. Unless the communications are followed up on by change...it's just another marketing ploy. And I'm too old to buy into those anymore.
Embrace...I understand your devotion to the game. There are still MMO's out there that I enjoyed and loved so much I will still defend to my dying day. Even if I don't' play them anymore (LotRO was one of those for me....I so wish I could go back to the Mines of Moria days!). But you have to understand that the people dissatisfied with this game aren't just freeloaders...there are plenty of people like me who have CASH to invest in a game, and HAVE invested cash in neverwinter in the past. Right now, Neverwinter isn't worth it for me, in spite of the many aspects of the Game that I enjoy.
You know...it's interesting. A while back I watched a video about Linux and Red Hat. If you don't know who they are, they're a company that publishes a packaged "install and go" version of Linux. Which is odd since most Linux is open source. But in the interview they mentioned that they realized a long time ago that they key to success in their industry wasn't trying to sell a product that others were offering for free...but it was to sell their support and services. and make their package of free stuff better then everyone else's free stuff.
And it worked. Google did something very similar with their search engines, as well as their OS (android), and they literally changed the market. Literally. Multi-national communications companies are now following suit...Its not about product anymore....That's not good enough. What you have to do is sell your services, and make your product so polished and so inviting that people want your selection...even in a free market.
MMO's that have figured this out are growing and profiting. Marvel Heroes, GW2, and SWtOR are a few I can name personally that I've experienced that understand this concept and are delivering. and their customer bases are growing, not shrinking. PWE needs to get the point too...or they will become a dinosaur like the others that have come before them.
Heck, even Microsoft is labeling their future as the future of services, not selling a product. Windows 10 is free right now...and they don't plan on building another OS. A company the size of Microsoft has actually figured this out too...I'm hoping that PWE gets it before it's too late.
Bravo sir. Bravo. I have made many posts (similar in size to yours) trying to get these very same points across to PWE and Cryptic. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem they want to hear it from me, because most of mine end up deleted. So, quite a while ago, I got the hint. PWE and Cryptic don't want to hear from players that are willing to pay them REASONABLE sums of money. They only want to hear how awesome they are from players that are willing to pay them thousands of dollars every time they come out with a new module.
I hope they listen to you, and many others, that are literally screaming the same thing at them. If not, as you say, there are lots of other games in town.
Appreciation to you, from me, and the others that are trying to get them to turn this runaway train around before it goes off the tracks for good.
Peace and well spoken sir.
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
Excellent points on M$ and gurgle. I actually bring up Google all the time to the kids to remind them that Nothing is really free in our market. Free is just another marketing approach.
It's interesting to see the battles going on with the music industry. The internet has changed so much that the old systems are making way for new systems, and I agree with you...It is an evolution of an industry.
When your the only gas station in town, you can charge whatever you want. but when you are only one of 10, and they all are offering their Gas for free...there's not much wiggle room for competition in the price itself. so the profits need to come from somewhere.
ESO is going to be interesting. I actually played it for almost 2 days non stop when it first came out
On an ironic side note...FFXIV is still going strong with a sub model. I remember the conversations from Yoshi back then, after the whole 1.0 fiasco, when he took al his dev's and made them play other successful MMO's. they applied what they learned...and to this day it's a sub game that's still going strong. Sub's work when you give people a reason to sub, just like Cash shop's work when you give people a reason to buy.
I love your last statement. That in a nutshell defines the networking industry of the last 20 years.
This is the reason alot of player suggestions are so good - they come from otehr games that've done that, and it worked really well over there
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
I am in the same demographic as Temju, with the same gaming experience. Temju's post said succinctly much of my own observations. I too, have spent plenty of money in this game. I've personally come to the conclusion that I don't like the pure F2P model. They are almost always disingenuous.
In my opinion, the smarter model for the west is a hybrid premium model with no hidden costs. This game is full of hidden costs.
Like Temju noted, I loved the initial product, and I of course, grew up playing D&D on PnP. I keep checking back on these forms, hoping to see the positive signs of change from Cryptic. I don't expect immediate changes, but it would be reassuring to hear from the development team about real, substantive changes they are in the process of making, that addresses the players concerns.
At this point, I've come to the conclusion, that there short-cycle business models governs the entirety of their thinking, to the point, that player retention isn't really a concern to them. Their betting on short-term revenue from new players, for a short period of time.
I am also left with the impression that they take brand loyalty for granted. They expect that, those of us who are disenfranchised, will just "go away", and new players will just accept current conditions as they are.
I am reminded of a quote by one of their executives. I'll paraphrase: "There is always a drop in population after launch, but the players who stay, you can't get rid of". Admittedly, that quote is out of context, but it still leaves me with a certain impression.
At this point, my faith in Cryptic is extremely nil. I am hoping that will change.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/3fmj6w/8000_account_vac_banned/
Every game I see this. Spend $8000 or spend $0; somebodies in both camps are gonna try cheating.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
See, people are thinking that people follow the sunk-cost fallacy.
Sunk cost fallacy: "Oh, I can't stop now, I've already put so much money into it!" Lots of people fall into that.
Reverse of that: "Oh, I can't risk things now, I've already put so much money into it!"
People are only marginalists when it involves taking on additional risk; when it involves taking on less risk, well, people suddenly go all sunk-cost mentality. What a shame. I guess the point is, the people with 6k invested can "make more by cheating than by not cheating" so they cheat. The 6k they spent? That's already gone. They're not getting it back. And what's the utility of an account that's NOT as amazing as theoretically possible? None. Because you only spend 6k to be the best evaaaaar!!! so deciding not to be the best (around, never gonna keep you down~) is basically wasting that money. At least if you cheat to be the bestest, you have a chance of not getting caught.
And if you are caught and lose everything? Move on to the next game.
tl;dr version 2, the incentive structure of "paying customers don't cheat" is, unfortunately, wrong.
Far as answering the main Q of the thread...Is Cryptic alienating there playerbase? I Would have to say yes. Perhaps in some aspects with good reason i.e. botters, etc. But, I fail to see how anything beneficial can be accomplished with changed to systems like the gateway.
1) Botters and the economy:
To stop botting you'll need manpower. Plain and simple. Having people working for cryptic sitting at botting entry points like Ghost stories in Neverdeath Graveyard catching bots entering/exiting, researching accounts, and banning MAC addresses would be a winning solution. MAC address spoofing can be done, but the real MAC is always in there you just have to know where to look. It would be a rather time consuming process, but in the end well worth it to once and for all rid yourselves of those that wish to cheat to get ahead.
Then being able to refocus and make the game rewarding for those that play it legit would just come easy.
But in the meantime though Cryptic would need to have people replicating items and posting them on the markets so the market doesn't crash. Cause while we all hate botters...let's face it....they do help keep prices on things like 99 stacks of rank 5 enchantments down. It would in fact be a good idea to be doing this even now though on certain high end items like Trans weapon/armor enchants, etc. People want to have nice things, but don't and won't spend upwards of $60 to get them for one character to be able to use them.
Let's look at another cryptic project called Star Trek Online. I would say without looking at numbers that Star Trek has a better handle on the economy and keeps botters out because of it. Why? Well....for starters....there main daily limited currency is dilithium (astral diamonds) which is used to refine and upgrade items to higher levels and may be converted into Zen to buy Zen store items. But is not used in the player trading process aka the Exchange (auctionhouse). Instead they use another currency for player to player trades in the auction house called Energy Credits (gold). There Duty officer assignments (profession tasks) don't reward players with very much Energy Credits (gold), and is also earned from playing content. Hence keeping higher end items a task of saving over time. Whilst keeping some items available on from the Zen store. And too there is no 50 characters per account ridiculousness allowed. Who has time to actually play 50 characters in at least 1 dungeon/pvp domination a day?? No one. But you want that flashy new ship from the Zen store only then you have to spend time playing those different characters that you do have collecting that dilithium and saving up to be able to convert it into Zen. There dilithium to zen ratio hovers below 300 dilithium to 1 zen with a daily refine limit of 8k per character.
Huge changes, lots of work, but in the end would be worth it by far.
2) Exp requirements and overflow rewards:
Oh dear what a grind it was getting my CW to level 70 from 60 BEFORE the recent exp changes. Getting my DC from 60-70 after the recent changes...omg it was awful. Doing repetitive task is not fun. So the rewards for doing the task once should be much higher than they are now. 100+ vigilance task most of them 2-3 time repeats. -.- Not fun. Futhermore...I get the storyline from doing it once. And on overflow...let me summarize that neatly to say...I got multiple characters because I enjoy multiple play styles, but getting those multiple characters rank 4 abilities of just the things I want them to have....impossible. I'm not buying something to advance me forward faster so I can have a chance to get a power point either. Now...give me the option to outright buy the power point and we can discuss that, but again...multiple characters...multiple abilities wanted to be rank 4...and not spending a ridiculous amount for anything. I wouldn't spend $60 between getting 2 characters 8 rank 4 abilities each. But, would I maybe spend $30 or sacrifice my astral diamonds for a few weeks (2 at most 3) to get it guaranteed...yea.
3) High end item's costs
If the economy as a whole was changed in this game like the above I mentioned then I just couldn't see someone having to spend upwards of $100 on a trans enchantment. Because to get a lesser enchantment could come from a lockbox or outright purchase on the Zen store or purchase in gold from trade house then refining it up to trans would take time collecting refinement points and the astral diamonds to use those refinement points. While being totally doable on one character because doing the dailies from Rhix on one character actually doesn't take a century to do, is rewarding enough, and I believe still would be on par for above mentioned economy changes. Put less thaumaturgic stones on the Zen store in a stack of 10 for like $1.25 and have it cost 250 astral diamonds or so to be applied to a lesser weapon/armor enchantment. Bingo. You just replicated what STO done that has seemingly been successful.
4) Bug fixes and player requested changes:
Bugs happen. I get that. I understand that it is humans programming these machines. It just takes a shorter process: Identify, justify, and rectify.
I don't know why there aren't more Polls on these forums for do you think this could use to be toned down. That would quickly, efficiently reach a mass consensus among players of yup we don't like this and would like to see it changed or yup love it and right on par with what I expect. Once you get that feedback, get it done and keep it moving. No need to waste time talking more about that.
Ending: All the above would come down to spending money to make money. I could only fathom how many old players would come back responding to an ad campaign of a revamped Neverwinter and how many new players would be more inclined to check it out.
Yes.
And as mentioned, i doubt that we will see any bug/exploit fixes in patches/updates after August 11th, since the Devs might be working full time on Underdark by then.
And if someone doesn't trust the Steam Charts to show that the game is losing players, take a good look at the items offered in the auction house.
A lot less being offered, while the prices for those few items are going up. I'm curious to see how this will turn out in a few weeks or months from now...
When you only have 150 players willing to not cheat on at even given hour, how can a game be played!
Some of the most well known players have left for the other game, their explanation is not that the other game is better, its that its PROGRESS-ABLE by playing the game..
your grind gating EVERYTHING in game to the point of extremeness is insanity. Stop monetizing everything.. your just loosing players that would pay you for other things! My alts no longer matter, so alts stop buying companions. Ill tell you up front, I WILL never, NEVER buy a experience grind token from you, or any other game.. ever! What a sad, SAD testimony to the mmo history of games that you did this.
Ive spent money here.. as much as some others? maybe not, but a few hundred dollars isnt nothing, and now you have lost a few hundred more I probably wouldve spent. I consider myself a average MMO player/spender, who plays these games for entertainment instead of TV.. Im willing to give you some of my dollars in return for enjoyment.. when you make things so boring, why would I give you my money?
I reiterate, you guys need to stop thinking that Cryptic is trying to maximize long term profits in this. They're probably stuck in certain licensing restrictions, and are trying to keep following by their contractual obligations with minimum net expenditures. They could invest a lot of time effort and resources into the game and possibly turn out a profit, but that's a high risk venture. Letting the game just sort of trudge along, being neither a huge drain on resources nor a major profit center, is a low risk low return strategy. Of course that strategy alienates players, but, well, that's kind of the point.
From a corporate finance standpoint, I don't blame them. Neverwinter's combat system is fundamentally interesting, but it's kind of a novelty thing. I don't know that you can really support an MMO on novelty. The same goes for the IP attached to it; the people who like Neverwinter are single player game fans, so I'm not sure where they were going with that. But that IP becomes a straight jacket deciding what they can and can't do with the game, including, I imagine, shutting it down entirely. So what do you do when you've decided that your game can't be made great (or at the very least, that the resource expenditure to make the game great can't be justified by the risk associated with said investment)? You cut your losses as much as possible.
Everything needs to be considered from a "cutting costs" perspective. Increasing the number of players isn't the goal. The goal is making sure that players aren't a net drain on resources. So the kinds of suggestions that would work are those that reduce the net resources that Cryptic has to put into the game. Gateway leadership down? Great, that's less work for the servers-maybe it'll drive of some players who operate from the Gateway solely, and don't spend any money on the game. Of course, for those people who weren't logging in before, but now are logging in, it's more load on the server, so it might be a net wash.
Suggestions people make for improving the game need to keep this cost cutting ideology in mind. How can Cryptic do more with less.
But, again, this is all wild speculation. I don't want to feed misinformation.
That's a fair point. It would also explain why the XP requirements haven't been adjusted to a more sensible level.
A shame that this is only going to be a short term bonus for them and that they cant see the harm it'll do in the long run
ONE thing seems obvious.... the devs cant play the game, otherwise there would be no way they would expect the player base to put up with some of the BS we are expected to since Mod 6 was introduced.
1- 60 great above that with Mod 6, just well not fun...
Take the average time frame to just GRIND out rp, would = around 300 hours give or take and you did NOTHING else for 20 out of the 25 hours a week of playing would = 15 weeks of pure torture or 2.1 months of NOTHING ELSE of playing other then grinding RP for artifacts.. Did you get that, over 2 months of mind numbing boringness to grind out RP..
Let alone the AD and EXP gating and the overflow gating and the effing other gating they add every other week into this game.
This is supposed to be fun, not a full time job.
This game went downhill due to the amount of grinding and gating they put into the game.
Sadly this is the new face of Neverwinter. I do appreciate a moderator actually responding. Makes me wonder if the developers read posts like this too.
I'm pretty sure that they do.
I would also like to add that while I don't have BiS anything, I still can do just about anything in the game I want to do. And I don't play full time like a lot of players do. I simply don't have the time anymore. I usually play for an hour or 2 every day. My personal opinion, and it may not be the popular one, is that people are too worried about getting their stuff to legendary or mythic quality. While that is nice to have, it is not needed and the stuff is just going to be replaced with next expansion anyway (probably will always be true, as most MMOs do this). So just worry about getting it up as high as you have time for, and try to have fun in the game while doing it.
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
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or.. post me a ENTIRE group doing ECC legit with all sub 2.5k.. etos is the only thing even close to being done legit with normal average groups.
I actually agree with the sentiment here, but that is part of the big reason I'm "alienated" - because I want to play a game where I have other things to worry about than grinding RP. Getting gear up to legendary or mythic quality shouldn't be the be-all end-all of the late game, but unfortunately it has been made that way by design decisions in this game. I'd much rather be worried about trying to run dungeons and explore new areas with my friends or accrue more power points to try out different powers and builds on my character than whether or not I'm grinding enough RP, but the game is *not* at all friendly to that mentality.
Dungeon content was cut significantly, and no new ones have been introduced nor are they hinting at when they'll be back except to say "not Mod 7". (I know I sound like a broken record here but this is HUGE - end-game raids/dungeons are a huge component of end-game goals in many other MMORPGs)
New areas are incredibly repetitive and grindy, not to mention level progression in the end-game slows to an absolute crawl. It's more impactful to my character to grind for RP than it is to grind for levels past 70, and that's saying something.
No solid way to participate in the only large group content (Tiamat) as a group other than to try 'timing it' properly.
If want to dump time (and not money) into the game, there really is only one outlet for me to do so - and that's grinding out RP/XP/AD. There are very, very few 'rare drops' a la WoW that you can try to hunt down in dungeons, and none whatsoever in the world at large (Time Lost Proto Drake, anyone?).
Mod 7 hopefully adds a bit more goals to aim for once you hit endgame if you're in a guild, but doesn't help with the idea of having options for less-grind oriented end game goals.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be any grind - it's an MMO after all. But it would be nice to have something to do OTHER than grind, and sadly of late this game seems to be less and less concerned with that and more and more with making the current state very hospitable to trying to "buy your way out of it".