I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that. While I'm sure there's a crapton of leadership bots on gateway, I'm also sure there's a crapton of bots running around in-game currently. They'll simply take a small loss from not being able to run quite as many leadership bots in-game as opposed to running them on gateway.
I expect this was mainly done to inconvenience non-gold farmer players, players who previously spent real money but have since built leadership armies and either heavily cutback on real money spending, or completely stopped. I bet the majority of them are using gateway to run those leadership armies, legitimately or not, and those are the ones Cryptic is trying to "force" into spending real money again.
Frankly, I still believe leadership should be removed from the game, as an AD income generator at any rate. And while I realize that's not realistically possible to do over the short-term, tossing out more poorly thought out, knee-jerk repsonse changes like this one just alienates your players...
They made it clear they don't want us to spend more than a hour a day in the game hence the Dragon hoard enchant nerf(can't be because of botters because they made it clear today the main problem is on swordcoast). As a player that spend multiple hours a day in the game it really upset me that they remove something from a system that is not even out of beta yet.
Why don't they just have everything bind on pickup and then sell a unbind item in the zen store(can be very expensive). This way botters will not find it profitable to bot. We have an option to make an item unbound and then sell it, people will buy zen with real money and everyone is happy.
There are more than BIS players in this game RIP Real Tiamat, RIP Real Demogorgon RIP real Temple of the spider. Why remove non bis content to give to bis players ???? FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)
Leadership change is interesting step... I look forward to see how it affect next mod and how many players it bring back to game, sure it has positive effect when balance is returned, sure, xD.
Here we are acting on it - getting rid of a major source for botting, which will result in a more balanced economy.
There is the main problem with almost all "your" actions - pretending of doing what players wants, while doing the exact opposite - eliminating the source of income for everyone instead of eliminating the bots and their wealth !
That way you make them even more powerful for the months to come with the newest astronomical AD sink - billions AD's for every guild just for marketplace (even lvl 1 starts from 25 million). So the result is - "you" want to balance the economy by reducing AD income and increasing spending needs while leaving the bots who already have mountains of AD on the top of the economy again. Everybody knows that bigger capital will win every economical race there is given the same conditions to start and proceed.
RIght now the economy is horrible. My friend who I convinced to join me in the game just hit level 70 two days ago. He can not afford a weapon enchant or an armor enchant. He purchased almost nothing while leveling up and sold a few items on the AH but only had 200k when he hit level 70. Co. Wards are going for nearly 500k and he needs two just to get the lowest quality enchants. How is he going to earn that? Getting what a thousand AD from skirmishes if he is on at that point in time. Takes ten minutes for a skirmish, which results in something like a hundred hours just to get lesser enchants. Part of this is the economy is inflated but removing the leadership from the gateway is going to just mean that the bots are going to move in game. They are horrible people who make money by cannibalizing game economies. They will figure out a new way to bot to gain money while newer players will just be stuck in the poor house. Other games do not have this problem because you earn money by playing the game. You get rewards from killing stuff and doing quests. But not here. With this change you need to change the entire economy. The game is built on AD and now I do not know how I will get mine. I am all for removing bots but this will just slow them down a few days while sabotaging the player base resulting in more people supporting the botters by buying from their horrible AD selling sites.
Also, rework the ingame profession interface. I do not use it. I keep the gateway open and switch to that to change my professions because it is a nicer interface. I hate using it ingame.
Now I am just going to end up taking advantage of my dual screens to keep neverwinter open in one screen so I can stay logged in while doing other stuff.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
We have information you guys may not be aware of in that the amount of people botting in Leadership on Gateway is astounding!
One quick question. Or maybe two. If you have enough data to derive how much AD is being generated by automating Leadership on the Gateway, wouldn't you then have enough data to track and ban accounts doing this?
It seems what you guys really need is a "zero tolerance" policy on game automation, both on the Gateway and in the game itself.
Not only do you need to ban the botters, but look at accounts that are profitting from accounts linked to these bot accounts. If you see an account attached to a known botter account, and then you see them buy a junk item on the AH from another player for 10,000,000 AD, you know what's going on there, too. So ban the player BUYING from the botters as well.
There's two sides to the equation. Botters exist because people buy from them. Ban both from the game. Let people know supporting bot farmers is a dangerous activity, and if your account is found to be part of it, you're tossed as well.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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instynctiveMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,885Arc User
Seriously folks.. this isn't the end of the world.
Press your "L" key. Click "Earn Epic Rewards". Select your poison.
During the "Skirmishes" event, I can easily make 12k AD. Sometimes I'll run a dungeon, there's another 3kAD. There are Foundries set up specifically for AD rewards (they're super quick, and I consider it an exploit, but cheaters gonna cheat). PvP.
Seriously folks.. this isn't the end of the world.
Press your "L" key. Click "Earn Epic Rewards". Select your poison.
During the "Skirmishes" event, I can easily make 12k AD. Sometimes I'll run a dungeon, there's another 3kAD. There are Foundries set up specifically for AD rewards (they're super quick, and I consider it an exploit, but cheaters gonna cheat). PvP.
That's great for non-casual players . . .
This game definitely has focused on making changes to adversely impact casual players. I should know - I WAS one! (notice the past tense verb).
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!" pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all." looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
A bunch of people are saying we're punishing players, but let's put things into perspective about the game as a whole instead of what each individual player sees. We have information you guys may not be aware of in that the amount of people botting in Leadership on Gateway is astounding! They're actually ruining the economy by having so much AD that it hikes everything up, but many aren't aware of this. By removing it, the economy will be more balanced as "illegal" currency would take a hit - yes, we know there are other ways, but one step at a time.
Let's not think about this in terms of individual and immediate problems. Just because it doesn't affect you directly, doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Manyyyyy people have asked us to take care of all the botters and their monopoly of AD, but when we do something to stop some of it, the same people berate us. I'm not sure about you, but this just doesn't sound right. So I'm asking you guys to look at the bigger picture instead of what's directly in front of you and ask yourself the same questions you're asking us.
I understand your frustrations, but again, look at the bigger picture. I'll be the first to acknowledge when a decision is questionable like the XP changes and whatnot, but this one is not questionable; it's just not obvious at first.
Many people say we never act on anything the community wants. Here we are acting on it - getting rid of a major source for botting, which will result in a more balanced economy.
This is my honest opinion and I am speaking for myself, not anyone else.
I agree with the current change also i agree with your option.
1., PPL give feedback and some feedback are implemented .
Like those:
Bis forum warriors asked for harder content now melee chars suffer from 1 shooting . implemented
Many players asked for increase the amount of xp need . implemented
Many players asked for make the rp from dragonhoard bound cuz they was jellus and buyed the cheap unbound rp to get more rich later!! implemented
Many players asked for removing the raw ad from neverember and the ugly Kobold. implemented
Many players asked for more communication from devs . implemented
Many players asked to get rid of the t2 gear from tiamat & t1 from heralds. implemented
Many players asked for get rid of the bots and now devs have done somthing .
I can give ppl hou cry about this a proof those threads are still exist if you dig deep.
So i agree with sturm ppl asking stuff and later they dont like what they asked for....
What ppl dont asked for :
Removing 9 dungeons .
Removing BOE drops (t1-t2 gear) from the remaining 6 dungeons.
Making warriors die like a fly from each hit.
Suggestion to make some additional "proof to be a human" in game anti bot system every 2 hours and on log to get rid of those bots from in game too.
1) GMOP price will stay the same.
2) Ward prices will stay the same.
3) AD requirements for Strongholds will stay the same.
4) AD costs for boons etc. will stay the same.
This is the truth, they are using the botters as an excuse. So when people start cutting into the botter's profit it's suddenly toxic? Something smells here.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,220Arc User
edited July 2015
If AD botting is the problem, a better logical solution (still not a good solution) is to stop AD earning task in gateway (or strip the AD earning for the task that is started from gateway) and NOT all the leadership tasks. Allow people to do PxP tasks to level up. The 4 hour enchanted coffer (that does not produce AD) is one of my favorites. Now, I will not be able to effectively do that task.
On the other hand, I believe blaming botting is just a pre-text and not the real reason behind this. Hence, whatever suggestion will be pointless.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
A bunch of people are saying we're punishing players, but let's put things into perspective about the game as a whole instead of what each individual player sees. We have information you guys may not be aware of in that the amount of people botting in Leadership on Gateway is astounding! They're actually ruining the economy by having so much AD that it hikes everything up, but many aren't aware of this. By removing it, the economy will be more balanced as "illegal" currency would take a hit - yes, we know there are other ways, but one step at a time.
Let's not think about this in terms of individual and immediate problems. Just because it doesn't affect you directly, doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Manyyyyy people have asked us to take care of all the botters and their monopoly of AD, but when we do something to stop some of it, the same people berate us. I'm not sure about you, but this just doesn't sound right. So I'm asking you guys to look at the bigger picture instead of what's directly in front of you and ask yourself the same questions you're asking us.
I understand your frustrations, but again, look at the bigger picture. I'll be the first to acknowledge when a decision is questionable like the XP changes and whatnot, but this one is not questionable; it's just not obvious at first.
Many people say we never act on anything the community wants. Here we are acting on it - getting rid of a major source for botting, which will result in a more balanced economy.
This is my honest opinion and I am speaking for myself, not anyone else.
Thanks for trying, but the dmg already has been done. Besides it's not enough to "repair" economy. You need to consider more AD rewards from daily and weekly task and replacing AD from invoking and from Leadership with account bound RP.
For me I agree with Strumslinger, the AD was getting way out of hand and everyone complained about the spamming of goldsellers, I'm sure we will get something back in return.
Now only ban the people that bought AD from those sites, that would be fair also.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,220Arc User
For me I agree with Strumslinger, the AD was getting way out of hand and everyone complained about the spamming of goldsellers, I'm sure we will get something back in return.
Now only ban the people that bought AD from those sites, that would be fair also.
Based on previous experience, the "return" will be a 2x AD for one weekend.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
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torontodaveMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 992Arc User
I'm fine with this.
I only did my leadership in game anyway.
Leadership via gateway is not being used as intended. =X
NW-DSQ39N5SJ - 'To Infinity, and BEYOND!' - Spelljammer Quest. Skyships, Indiana Jones moments NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
Thanks for all the fish.
I will also add another point: 5. Shirts/Pants/jewels price will drop, but not as much as everything else, because of constant AD cost.
Whilst I concur with much of what you have been saying, I just wanted to pick up on this. As a crafter who can make these items, the one thing putting me off of this in favour of just queuing Leadership tasks is the rng. If I did not have the 40% chance of failing to make the gemmed versions (thereby 'losing' the rarer crafting mats needed to make them - along with the time investment from crafting the preceding items), then I would be far happier to make more of them and sell them on the AH.
Just making a change in regards to that would, I feel, lead to prices of those items falling. It would also mean that I will in turn be investing AD into the system, from purchasing the Dragon Eggs off of the AH to use in the crafting process.
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torontodaveMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 992Arc User
Less AD from AFK sources is good.
More AD from PLAYABLE sources is even better. =D
NW-DSQ39N5SJ - 'To Infinity, and BEYOND!' - Spelljammer Quest. Skyships, Indiana Jones moments NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
Thanks for all the fish.
Comments
I expect this was mainly done to inconvenience non-gold farmer players, players who previously spent real money but have since built leadership armies and either heavily cutback on real money spending, or completely stopped. I bet the majority of them are using gateway to run those leadership armies, legitimately or not, and those are the ones Cryptic is trying to "force" into spending real money again.
Frankly, I still believe leadership should be removed from the game, as an AD income generator at any rate. And while I realize that's not realistically possible to do over the short-term, tossing out more poorly thought out, knee-jerk repsonse changes like this one just alienates your players...
Okay, Panic.
Why don't they just have everything bind on pickup and then sell a unbind item in the zen store(can be very expensive). This way botters will not find it profitable to bot. We have an option to make an item unbound and then sell it, people will buy zen with real money and everyone is happy.
RIP Real Tiamat, RIP Real Demogorgon RIP real Temple of the spider. Why remove non bis content to give to bis players ????
FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base
Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)
There is the main problem with almost all "your" actions - pretending of doing what players wants, while doing the exact opposite - eliminating the source of income for everyone instead of eliminating the bots and their wealth !
That way you make them even more powerful for the months to come with the newest astronomical AD sink - billions AD's for every guild just for marketplace (even lvl 1 starts from 25 million). So the result is - "you" want to balance the economy by reducing AD income and increasing spending needs while leaving the bots who already have mountains of AD on the top of the economy again. Everybody knows that bigger capital will win every economical race there is given the same conditions to start and proceed.
Also, rework the ingame profession interface. I do not use it. I keep the gateway open and switch to that to change my professions because it is a nicer interface. I hate using it ingame.
Now I am just going to end up taking advantage of my dual screens to keep neverwinter open in one screen so I can stay logged in while doing other stuff.
One quick question. Or maybe two. If you have enough data to derive how much AD is being generated by automating Leadership on the Gateway, wouldn't you then have enough data to track and ban accounts doing this?
It seems what you guys really need is a "zero tolerance" policy on game automation, both on the Gateway and in the game itself.
Not only do you need to ban the botters, but look at accounts that are profitting from accounts linked to these bot accounts. If you see an account attached to a known botter account, and then you see them buy a junk item on the AH from another player for 10,000,000 AD, you know what's going on there, too. So ban the player BUYING from the botters as well.
There's two sides to the equation. Botters exist because people buy from them. Ban both from the game. Let people know supporting bot farmers is a dangerous activity, and if your account is found to be part of it, you're tossed as well.
Press your "L" key. Click "Earn Epic Rewards". Select your poison.
During the "Skirmishes" event, I can easily make 12k AD. Sometimes I'll run a dungeon, there's another 3kAD. There are Foundries set up specifically for AD rewards (they're super quick, and I consider it an exploit, but cheaters gonna cheat). PvP.
"...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
That's great for non-casual players . . .
This game definitely has focused on making changes to adversely impact casual players. I should know - I WAS one! (notice the past tense verb).
Ugh!
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
I agree with the current change also i agree with your option.
1., PPL give feedback and some feedback are implemented .
Like those:
Bis forum warriors asked for harder content now melee chars suffer from 1 shooting . implemented
Many players asked for increase the amount of xp need . implemented
Many players asked for make the rp from dragonhoard bound cuz they was jellus and buyed the cheap unbound rp to get more rich later!! implemented
Many players asked for removing the raw ad from neverember and the ugly Kobold. implemented
Many players asked for more communication from devs . implemented
Many players asked to get rid of the t2 gear from tiamat & t1 from heralds. implemented
Many players asked for get rid of the bots and now devs have done somthing .
I can give ppl hou cry about this a proof those threads are still exist if you dig deep.
So i agree with sturm ppl asking stuff and later they dont like what they asked for....
What ppl dont asked for :
Removing 9 dungeons .
Removing BOE drops (t1-t2 gear) from the remaining 6 dungeons.
Making warriors die like a fly from each hit.
Suggestion to make some additional "proof to be a human" in game anti bot system every 2 hours and on log to get rid of those bots from in game too.
This is the truth, they are using the botters as an excuse. So when people start cutting into the botter's profit it's suddenly toxic? Something smells here.
On the other hand, I believe blaming botting is just a pre-text and not the real reason behind this. Hence, whatever suggestion will be pointless.
Thanks for trying, but the dmg already has been done. Besides it's not enough to "repair" economy. You need to consider more AD rewards from daily and weekly task and replacing AD from invoking and from Leadership with account bound RP.
Once again, thx.
Now only ban the people that bought AD from those sites, that would be fair also.
Based on previous experience, the "return" will be a 2x AD for one weekend.
I only did my leadership in game anyway.
Leadership via gateway is not being used as intended. =X
NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
Thanks for all the fish.
Whilst I concur with much of what you have been saying, I just wanted to pick up on this. As a crafter who can make these items, the one thing putting me off of this in favour of just queuing Leadership tasks is the rng. If I did not have the 40% chance of failing to make the gemmed versions (thereby 'losing' the rarer crafting mats needed to make them - along with the time investment from crafting the preceding items), then I would be far happier to make more of them and sell them on the AH.
Just making a change in regards to that would, I feel, lead to prices of those items falling. It would also mean that I will in turn be investing AD into the system, from purchasing the Dragon Eggs off of the AH to use in the crafting process.
More AD from PLAYABLE sources is even better. =D
NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
Thanks for all the fish.