You understand, of course, this change will not affect paladins at all. There is a reason paladins are using TEB. Who will it affect? Everyone else that uses negation...
I got a very well written PM of a paladin who was going to post an explanation of how paladin incredibile survivability works and where to fix it.
Can confirm it cause i've seen a gwf in bis gear with 8k+ ARP 1v1 a geared paladin and he was seriously bringing his hp down to 20% or so. OP was healing back so 1v1 it was a stall, but 2 players with enough arp could bring the pally down fast. Or a one-rotation GF with its burst.
You will notice that lately BiS pvp DPS toons walk around with 6/7/8k arp. There's a reason.
Once the guy posts his very good explanation, you will understand. It's very well written. Guess he's collecting more feedback before posting it.
Now if in mod7 arp is going to affect negation as said in patch notes, it means that you will nullify a huge chunk of negation DR, while now it's a 30% flat dr on a separate layer, making any toon super tanky.
The scary part here is that there are some serious balancing issues wrt pvp builds, and players that don't spec for pvp (most players) will find themselves at a huge disadvantage. I really hoped more would have been done to fix balance and bugged interactions as well as something to address the gear gap and allow for dual specs prior to a whole Mod mostly dedicated to PVP went live. Very ambitious ideas held back by flawed execution and lack of resources.
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
edited July 2015
I will try to publish a guide to show those that are interested in maximizing their GWF to full potential including the build, gear choices, techniques, combos and fighting styles. This build is currently very unique and I have not seen any GWF that runs this, a guildie of mine has been given this build and at 2.9k ilvl he was effectively taking down many other opponents 500-1000 ilvl above him. Now I just need to find the time to write about this build...
A new breed of GWF using Trans Feytouched and able to withstand ridiculous damage while healing constantly and dealing insane 3 swipes and you are dead kind of damage has become widespread as of late. I'm assuming there are some "math errors" and "unintended power interactions" at work here as a class so completely dominant over all the others doesn't seem WAI. Don't mean to turn this into a boo-hoo gwfs too powerful plz nerf thread, but there does seem to be something about this particular setup being passed around the elite pvp community that may need looking into.[/quote
Iron vanguard, full destroier , lifesteal, LD/Feytouched negation BiS builds
Yea. I dont buy the speach GWFs at bis are at disadvantage against other bis. I just dont. I see to much of these beasts. They have only 1 natural enemy and its TR. They can, the same as GF, be easly killed by 2 ppl so they are not the priority. But GF and GWF have the same problem, to much dmg mulitipliers.
50 alts it's at least 18k ZEN, then at lvl70 you get 3k AD from each alt via invoking + Leadership depending on the level, but should be aprox 7k AD. Once you max leadership you can get probably up to 15k from each alt with 7-8 slots.
icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
about 1 year ago I had an average GWF with about 2 million AD lying around, and guess what... there was a 40% OFF weekly sale on character slots... then guess where I spent ALL my AD.... I think I bought about 26 character slots at that time.... then 2~3 months later that character slot was again on sale... and guess where I invested all the AD I got from the alts at the time...
you dont even need that much capitals, if you have been playing for a few months its not too hard to have 1-2 milliom AD lying around, the difference is some players spend their AD wisely to generate more AD, where other buys their epeeeen mount, shinny enchantments and then struggle with AD again, then a while later when they see those that invested their AD smartly with bigger epeeeen more shinny enchantments, they straight ahead call others exploiters or wallet warriors... in fact its a matter of how smart the players are investing their AD for better
What I don't understand is all that mud complaining about people spending money to keep this game alive and enjoy it despite it's numerous broken aspects.
What I don't understand is all that mud complaining about people spending money to keep this game alive and enjoy it despite it's numerous broken aspects.
What they do to enjoy themselves doesn't keep the game alive. It drives it to its extinction, where in the end-days, only a handful premade/pvp-guild people are left wondering to themselves where all their pickings have gone, why noone queues for PvP anymore, and how its all the devs fault that they let pvp die.
When BiS players log in to the queue as solo players, becomes the 'center' of the team by being the vanguard to the lesser equipped and inexperienced players, and then tackles other BiS players on the opponent team in a mighty clash of titans, this is having fun with EVERYONE and KEEPING THE GAME ALIVE. When they do this, people look up to them, and respect them for their skill and their gear.
When BiS players think its a good idea to call out for premades in the PvP channel, practically gathering up ALL the good/well-equipped players logged on in that timezone, into a single team, and then queueing on for GG or DOM to crush everything in front of them like an ant and spend the next 4 hours of gameplay watching the spawn point, standing around and doing nothing, that's not keeping the game alive. That's convincing casual players and new players to never set foot in PvP ever again, and basically cut off the flow of people to PvP and kill it through a slow, dwindling shrinkage of the community.
...
If they really want a healthy PvP where more people can be interested in enjoying it, which will also allow a better chance of some of them actually becoming new "pros" in the future, then stop making premades, and stop making excuses when you don't have a premeditated engagement to fight another premade. As long as BiS players make premades, everything coming out of their mouths is nothing but a long-winded excuse in regards to why they just can't stop exploiting the status quo for their own "fun".
That being said, what I don't understand, is these BiS, premade/pvp-guild players always complaining PvP isn't fun and they don't really have challenge. They enter the game with a BiS premade, with pre-existing knowledge of how about 99% of what they face when they queue, is going to shatter like eggs before them. They basically eliminate all competition by monopolizing the random distribution of worthy, good players through solo queueing, and then they complain about how there's no challenge??? WTF???
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Kweassa, I usually respect what you say but you, as with others, are off the mark. It IS the dev's fault. It's not the duty of the player base to mold this game. Not that they do not have a hand in it but it's not the players responsibility. And you, like many others, portray pvp as a "pvp guild premade only" affair. Many pvp guild players do solo que...OFTEN.
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
I think we are a little outta topic now... but from what I have gathered in the past 2 days, it seems its only one specific potato express guild that does frequent premades on GG... and you would hardly see them in DOM... because... why... we can take a guess.....
My GWF has 2.7k IL, perf vorp, perf. barkshield (in the bankvault), soulf, full PvP set and all boons exept the last two WoD. Without neg. and feytouched he is viable to a) protect a faithful DC, b) kill bad geared PuGs or c) get killed.
I have a full PvP set on my DC, TR, HR, CW and GWF. Comparing IL, enchants, boons etc. GWF is the least fun to play atm. Without the 'right' enchants and gear you will get killed by every decent player with similar gear (exept SW).
On a sidenote, while playing PuG, I understand everyone who goes premade, bc he does not want to die 1v5 in mid while your 4 PuG teammates are capping home. There are some decent ppl playing PuG, but 60-80% seem to have a problem with the concept of teamplay. Adding insult to injury, if you give an advice or complain, you will get insulted by idiots in PvE gear who think, that they are better PvP players, bc they got more points fighting 3v1 on home, while you keep dieing 1v2 or 3 on mid or enemy node.
What I don't understand is all that mud complaining about people spending money to keep this game alive and enjoy it despite it's numerous broken aspects.
What they do to enjoy themselves doesn't keep the game alive. It drives it to its extinction, where in the end-days, only a handful premade/pvp-guild people are left wondering to themselves where all their pickings have gone, why noone queues for PvP anymore, and how its all the devs fault that they let pvp die.
While f2p players is good as game filling, I believe I should not lecture on what drives business and thus make developing games profitable - money. So no, as long as enough people pay and play it - the game is alive. I won't continue this conversation since I see where it is going to.
However I do agree placing premades with pugs is kind of lame at most.
I think we are a little outta topic now... but from what I have gathered in the past 2 days, it seems its only one specific potato express guild that does frequent premades on GG... and you would hardly see them in DOM... because... why... we can take a guess.....
Because that's the only guild premades still lose to pugs? lol
Ok, first, I'm sorry that I couldn't resist but hopefully this is the only time I'm going to post on this thread :<
Even if I'm in a PvP guild, I don't consider myself remotely in league with their gear or their premades. I mostly solo-queue because it's more fun for me. IMO if I don't win every time, that doesn't mean I'm a horrible player, that means I'm lucky to find more even matches, and I'm happy with that. I don't feel it's right to crucify the PvP guilds for the behavior of a few. Most of these people are fun, and nice and cool to hang out with.
Since we were talking about players doing something because devs won't... and you've already mentioned a certain PvP channel... and even went on a limb to ask guilds to stop premades... I mean, cheers to hoping, but...
Why don't you just start a PuG-level PvP channel instead. You vastly outnumber us, so I have no doubts it will be easy to fill a 10 man queue. Sync queue with each other and you can have your own 5v5 PuG/premade matches at your own gear level. When doing so, you are free to post on the PvP channel to say you are queueing, so you don't accidentally get sniped by high-end groups. No? Too difficult? Why bother? That's on you.
Why don't you just start a PuG-level PvP channel instead. You vastly outnumber us, so I have no doubts it will be easy to fill a 10 man queue. Sync queue with each other and you can have your own 5v5 PuG/premade matches at your own gear level. When doing so, you are free to post on the PvP channel to say you are queueing, so you don't accidentally get sniped by high-end groups. No? Too difficult? Why bother? That's on you.
Ok, first, I'm sorry that I couldn't resist but hopefully this is the only time I'm going to post on this thread :<
Even if I'm in a PvP guild, I don't consider myself remotely in league with their gear or their premades. I mostly solo-queue because it's more fun for me. IMO if I don't win every time, that doesn't mean I'm a horrible player, that means I'm lucky to find more even matches, and I'm happy with that. I don't feel it's right to crucify the PvP guilds for the behavior of a few. Most of these people are fun, and nice and cool to hang out with.
Since we were talking about players doing something because devs won't... and you've already mentioned a certain PvP channel... and even went on a limb to ask guilds to stop premades... I mean, cheers to hoping, but...
Why don't you just start a PuG-level PvP channel instead. You vastly outnumber us, so I have no doubts it will be easy to fill a 10 man queue. Sync queue with each other and you can have your own 5v5 PuG/premade matches at your own gear level. When doing so, you are free to post on the PvP channel to say you are queueing, so you don't accidentally get sniped by high-end groups. No? Too difficult? Why bother? That's on you.
yeah sure teaming up pugs that do not communicate on TS or in any other way with a mix of PVE and PVP gear spread between 1,7 and 3,5k GS is by sure much easier compared to team up two guild premades, who all got similar gear and exploit level and that know each other , mmmh...
I just wonder how many of these so called "top players" could really be if they just use normal gear as rest of us do...
Well some players do rely heavily on gear. I can start naming names but there is no point. I will say, probably one of the most skilled players I have seen play the game is someone like Sobek. Ive pvpd with and against him and on many classes, many mods and I believe it was module 3 he was running around in rank 5s on his CW killing everything. Im not in his guild, in fact we are rivals so really no point in me saying this other than just to say, there are many very good BIS players who wouldnt care if you even the playing field. In fact, im not 100% BIS but close enough (only utility are not 12s) and id LOVE a more level playing field.
I have been advocating for a LONG time that we should only have ONE artifact (not FOUR). We should never have items with more than 1 slot (rings/artifact equipment) This right there would cut down on 3 mythics and what 4-5 extra rank 12s required?
Then (IMO) Rank 7s should be what DROPS in PVE dungeons (Rank 5s were at 60) and this again would give more players an easier way to get to rank 12.
All of these things would help the new players.
Adding more daily quests that offer 6-8k Raw AD per quest. Allowing characters to not HAVE to run professions to make AD.
Making Epic equipment BOE so that you can actually SELL things onthe AH from playing the game.... All of these things would be massive in the contribution to the game IMO. The only issue is that itll just cause massive inflation so they will really need to revisit the amount of AD leadership gives per day and scale that back as well as potentially put a "per account cap" on refining AD. This too would slightly nerf leadership farming.
All of that would create a more level playing field for PVP imo.
Comments
I got a very well written PM of a paladin who was going to post an explanation of how paladin incredibile survivability works and where to fix it.
Can confirm it cause i've seen a gwf in bis gear with 8k+ ARP 1v1 a geared paladin and he was seriously bringing his hp down to 20% or so. OP was healing back so 1v1 it was a stall, but 2 players with enough arp could bring the pally down fast. Or a one-rotation GF with its burst.
You will notice that lately BiS pvp DPS toons walk around with 6/7/8k arp. There's a reason.
Once the guy posts his very good explanation, you will understand. It's very well written. Guess he's collecting more feedback before posting it.
Now if in mod7 arp is going to affect negation as said in patch notes, it means that you will nullify a huge chunk of negation DR, while now it's a 30% flat dr on a separate layer, making any toon super tanky.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
Steel and Magic
you dont even need that much capitals, if you have been playing for a few months its not too hard to have 1-2 milliom AD lying around, the difference is some players spend their AD wisely to generate more AD, where other buys their epeeeen mount, shinny enchantments and then struggle with AD again, then a while later when they see those that invested their AD smartly with bigger epeeeen more shinny enchantments, they straight ahead call others exploiters or wallet warriors... in fact its a matter of how smart the players are investing their AD for better
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
What they do to enjoy themselves doesn't keep the game alive. It drives it to its extinction, where in the end-days, only a handful premade/pvp-guild people are left wondering to themselves where all their pickings have gone, why noone queues for PvP anymore, and how its all the devs fault that they let pvp die.
When BiS players log in to the queue as solo players, becomes the 'center' of the team by being the vanguard to the lesser equipped and inexperienced players, and then tackles other BiS players on the opponent team in a mighty clash of titans, this is having fun with EVERYONE and KEEPING THE GAME ALIVE. When they do this, people look up to them, and respect them for their skill and their gear.
When BiS players think its a good idea to call out for premades in the PvP channel, practically gathering up ALL the good/well-equipped players logged on in that timezone, into a single team, and then queueing on for GG or DOM to crush everything in front of them like an ant and spend the next 4 hours of gameplay watching the spawn point, standing around and doing nothing, that's not keeping the game alive. That's convincing casual players and new players to never set foot in PvP ever again, and basically cut off the flow of people to PvP and kill it through a slow, dwindling shrinkage of the community.
...
If they really want a healthy PvP where more people can be interested in enjoying it, which will also allow a better chance of some of them actually becoming new "pros" in the future, then stop making premades, and stop making excuses when you don't have a premeditated engagement to fight another premade. As long as BiS players make premades, everything coming out of their mouths is nothing but a long-winded excuse in regards to why they just can't stop exploiting the status quo for their own "fun".
That being said, what I don't understand, is these BiS, premade/pvp-guild players always complaining PvP isn't fun and they don't really have challenge. They enter the game with a BiS premade, with pre-existing knowledge of how about 99% of what they face when they queue, is going to shatter like eggs before them. They basically eliminate all competition by monopolizing the random distribution of worthy, good players through solo queueing, and then they complain about how there's no challenge??? WTF???
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
I have a full PvP set on my DC, TR, HR, CW and GWF. Comparing IL, enchants, boons etc. GWF is the least fun to play atm. Without the 'right' enchants and gear you will get killed by every decent player with similar gear (exept SW).
On a sidenote, while playing PuG, I understand everyone who goes premade, bc he does not want to die 1v5 in mid while your 4 PuG teammates are capping home. There are some decent ppl playing PuG, but 60-80% seem to have a problem with the concept of teamplay. Adding insult to injury, if you give an advice or complain, you will get insulted by idiots in PvE gear who think, that they are better PvP players, bc they got more points fighting 3v1 on home, while you keep dieing 1v2 or 3 on mid or enemy node.
However I do agree placing premades with pugs is kind of lame at most. Because that's the only guild premades still lose to pugs? lol
Even if I'm in a PvP guild, I don't consider myself remotely in league with their gear or their premades. I mostly solo-queue because it's more fun for me. IMO if I don't win every time, that doesn't mean I'm a horrible player, that means I'm lucky to find more even matches, and I'm happy with that. I don't feel it's right to crucify the PvP guilds for the behavior of a few. Most of these people are fun, and nice and cool to hang out with.
Since we were talking about players doing something because devs won't... and you've already mentioned a certain PvP channel... and even went on a limb to ask guilds to stop premades... I mean, cheers to hoping, but...
Why don't you just start a PuG-level PvP channel instead. You vastly outnumber us, so I have no doubts it will be easy to fill a 10 man queue. Sync queue with each other and you can have your own 5v5 PuG/premade matches at your own gear level. When doing so, you are free to post on the PvP channel to say you are queueing, so you don't accidentally get sniped by high-end groups. No? Too difficult? Why bother? That's on you.
Pretty good idea ^
yeah sure teaming up pugs that do not communicate on TS or in any other way with a mix of PVE and PVP gear spread between 1,7 and 3,5k GS is by sure much easier compared to team up two guild premades, who all got similar gear and exploit level and that know each other , mmmh...
Well some players do rely heavily on gear. I can start naming names but there is no point. I will say, probably one of the most skilled players I have seen play the game is someone like Sobek. Ive pvpd with and against him and on many classes, many mods and I believe it was module 3 he was running around in rank 5s on his CW killing everything. Im not in his guild, in fact we are rivals so really no point in me saying this other than just to say, there are many very good BIS players who wouldnt care if you even the playing field. In fact, im not 100% BIS but close enough (only utility are not 12s) and id LOVE a more level playing field.
I have been advocating for a LONG time that we should only have ONE artifact (not FOUR). We should never have items with more than 1 slot (rings/artifact equipment) This right there would cut down on 3 mythics and what 4-5 extra rank 12s required?
Then (IMO) Rank 7s should be what DROPS in PVE dungeons (Rank 5s were at 60) and this again would give more players an easier way to get to rank 12.
All of these things would help the new players.
Adding more daily quests that offer 6-8k Raw AD per quest. Allowing characters to not HAVE to run professions to make AD.
Making Epic equipment BOE so that you can actually SELL things onthe AH from playing the game.... All of these things would be massive in the contribution to the game IMO. The only issue is that itll just cause massive inflation so they will really need to revisit the amount of AD leadership gives per day and scale that back as well as potentially put a "per account cap" on refining AD. This too would slightly nerf leadership farming.
All of that would create a more level playing field for PVP imo.