I agree that if jumping does confer some defensive advantage, that it ought to consume stamina, like an ordinary dodge would.
If jumping is a dodge minus the stamina consumption then it does seem like an exploit.
Well firstly I would like to capture video where, and check does jumping cause glitch or not..
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
I agree that if jumping does confer some defensive advantage, that it ought to consume stamina, like an ordinary dodge would.
If jumping is a dodge minus the stamina consumption then it does seem like an exploit.
There's no stat-grabbable disadvantages. It primarilly serves to confuse, make the red one lose track of your whereabouts - that's the legit part of it. It can effect - especially towards higher ping users - action cancels: The target simply isn't where the "shooter" anticipated it to be @ t = +300ms, based on data gathered @ t = -600ms. NW is somewhat lenient in that aspect, rather erring in favor of the attacker, but...
Also, the effect is greater the closer to the bunnyjumper you are, and the greater the changes of movement vector are.
The effect in this game is marginal in comparison to others, especially ofc egoshooters, because a) there's auto-lock-on for most ranged skills, b) aformentioned leniency regarding this, and c) all classes also have AoE attacks which serve OK as a workaround, though often at a certain loss of attack rate or damage...
Lastly, crits are purely determined by RNG, no "headshot crit box" as in an egoshooter.
Its crappily immersion breaking when that PvP-guild preform comes bouncing down the GG halways like someone tossed a handful of ping-pong balls, though...
...makes it obvious you're anyway probably facing 120k GS then, so - run or die.
Yeah this seems to be more a matter of perception and reaction time than anything else. They're trying to throw off people targeting them and if they're quick enough to chain at-wills into it, all the better. To be fair, most encounter powers will hit them regardless unless they dodge so there is no glitch or unfair advantage.
They are trying to trick YOU, not trick the game in to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> you.
There is no bug, no glitch, no unexplained stat increases, nothing. The only reason people jump is;
(a) pure habit
(b) timing/rythm
(c) throwing off combo attacks
(d) extending attack reach
(a) is simply what it states. Habit.
(b) is also a type of (a). Sometimes people jump habitually to count, or regulate self rythm. Why do some fighters/boxers hop around when they can just walk around? Same thing. Sometimes it helps them concentrate, so its also a type of habit
(c) is usually for classes with high movement speeds, like TRs or HRs, and is intended to throw off attacks or mess up enemy attack timing. The best example is against gap-closers. What happens if you jump around during fights? When a certain class uses a leap/lunge type of gap-closer, it doesn't land him at where the target is currently. It lands him where the target
WAS when the gap closer was initially activated. Even if the gap-closer lands, when the wielder has finished moving/teleporting via the gap-closer, there is a certain bit of distance created. Jumping extends this distance as far as possible.
Practical example: WK TR's VP. When you land a VP from stealth it has a very short stun. So if the target just walks around everywhere, when VP hits, then the target is stunned and can be hit with follow-ups. However, when a very fast moving TR or HR jumps around, if is activated during when the target is in mid-air, guess what happens: VP takes you to that position, but after the apex of the jump the target is actually further away, and the distance is further away so immediate follow attacks may not connect.
(d) is for melees usually - think about the TR jumping DF technique.
There's nothing wrong with jumping. The only thing wrong with it, if there is such a thing, is some people don't like it visually.
There's no stat-grabbable disadvantages. It primarilly serves to confuse, make the red one lose track of your whereabouts - that's the legit part of it. It can effect - especially towards higher ping users - action cancels: The target simply isn't where the "shooter" anticipated it to be @ t = +300ms, based on data gathered @ t = -600ms. NW is somewhat lenient in that aspect, rather erring in favor of the attacker, but...
Also, the effect is greater the closer to the bunnyjumper you are, and the greater the changes of movement vector are.
The effect in this game is marginal in comparison to others, especially ofc egoshooters, because a) there's auto-lock-on for most ranged skills, b) aformentioned leniency regarding this, and c) all classes also have AoE attacks which serve OK as a workaround, though often at a certain loss of attack rate or damage...
Lastly, crits are purely determined by RNG, no "headshot crit box" as in an egoshooter.
Its crappily immersion breaking when that PvP-guild preform comes bouncing down the GG halways like someone tossed a handful of ping-pong balls, though...
...makes it obvious you're anyway probably facing 120k GS then, so - run or die.
Guys, first of all, I am not new in this monkey/bunnyhopping stuff in mmorpg. RunesOfMagic, WOW, PW, TwelveSky2 and tons of other old style and action based mmorpg who have jump had similar stuffs. Jumping in order to confuse enemy is OK. Its normal thing. However in some games jumping also caused air hitting glitch, and while character jumped in air, no one could do damage to him, because system think that you are on higher grounds or whatever.
Like yesterday during GG, 1 ranger keep bounced almost all pvp time, and you know 15+ players could not take more than 10% of his HP. And he more less killed 7 then gived midle finger and moved to other place. Too bad I didn't record that. Guys gear score ~14.
I sometimes miss the even older ones... ...DOOM, where the 2D / pseudo-3D map coordinates didn't even offer the option :^[)
I still have doom 1~3, quake 1~3 original CD's And wolfenstein. yeah, old 600 mhz cpu times.. XD
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
This game is more and more abused. Macros for interrupting CC, targetlocking, jumping, etc etc.
No more legit pvp players? Naive question.
well i know people using macros for jumping but never heard of interrupting cc cheats.
targetlocking is something the game itself seems to allow...i would disable it.
0
ryoshinetteMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 488Arc User
There have been a multitude of posts in this forum about bunnyhopping. Some claim it does not have a affect, some say, it does.
IMO it does. Some abilities target ground areas, not players. If you are not standig in the affected area, bc you are in the air, you are not affected.
This game is more and more abused. Macros for interrupting CC, targetlocking, jumping, etc etc.
No more legit pvp players? Naive question.
The only thing that's being more and more abused is the way how people simply forget the burden of proof and decide to claim any half-arsed, baseless rumour or lie without any proof or evidence whatsoever, and then send it whirling around the community as if it has any weight.
This "jump myth" has about as much credibility as Elvis sightings.
Hey, it's totally fine if I'm proven wrong. It's even better for the game if it is proven, since then we can ask for the devs to fix it. All anyone needs to do, is present evidence. For that last year and a half, no body was able to whenever this discussion came up.
It just looks completely stupid is my major problem with it. Now a lot of things look just as bad, black ice armor, the new elemental armor. Most of the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> flash and bling effects and such things. While I am not a must for a game to have "visually appealing" as its main priority it bothers me when visual effects are added that actually take away from the look and this includes bunny hopping. I know as a TR, at least one power that has its animation and positioning effect altered by jumping, but this is not a commonly used PvP power and I don't know that it isn't intended.
0
ryoshinetteMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 488Arc User
The only thing that's being more and more abused is the way how people simply forget the burden of proof and decide to claim any half-arsed, baseless rumour or lie without any proof or evidence whatsoever, and then send it whirling around the community as if it has any weight.
This "jump myth" has about as much credibility as Elvis sightings.
Hey, it's totally fine if I'm proven wrong. It's even better for the game if it is proven, since then we can ask for the devs to fix it. All anyone needs to do, is present evidence. For that last year and a half, no body was able to whenever this discussion came up.
Let's see if someone can do so this time.
So I have to record how can I use those "tricks" , then prove to you and get ban. No thanks. If you dont want to believe, we will not convince you.
The only thing that's being more and more abused is the way how people simply forget the burden of proof and decide to claim any half-arsed, baseless rumour or lie without any proof or evidence whatsoever, and then send it whirling around the community as if it has any weight.
This "jump myth" has about as much credibility as Elvis sightings.
Hey, it's totally fine if I'm proven wrong. It's even better for the game if it is proven, since then we can ask for the devs to fix it. All anyone needs to do, is present evidence. For that last year and a half, no body was able to whenever this discussion came up.
Let's see if someone can do so this time.
Macros been used since day one to switch armor and land combos faster. Macros are in itself a grey area when it comes to cheats/abuse as its does what you can do ingame just faster and more accurate. However you can also use macros to abort actions or combocansel as its also called to abuse broken mechanics ingame.
Then we come to the real cheats like tracking devices and client hacking whish also been used but that require a much deeper skillset and must be adapted with every patch.
In most mmo games there are tools used by devs to monitor 3rd programs but I daubt NW uses that. If you report a player the norm is that a dev logs on and uses these tools to confirm cheats then ban the person in question as you never get a responce from NW for a couple of days it is highly unlikely they have that option here.
There will always be some very skilled programers that can figure out how to bend the rules in a game the more you can gain from it both monetary and gamewise the more common it will be.
From what i seen its not very common in NW but that some high end pvp guilds use it there is no question about....
recognized this monkeyjumping myself, doing it somtimes myself , instictively, when somke bomed or dazed by TR´s, its like the hope to get away faster
as caster class i did see some hunter jumping like apes nonstop, but...they died same way as not jumping, and i didn´t recognized that i missed more when casting, only effect is they sometimes jump out of your hitbox, but performed very bad in doing that all time, thats probabaly the problem for melle-classes who have to time more accurat their hits
tbh it looks redicules jumping all time, even if 3 mates are beside you and wait to cap, its anoying if some freak jumps all time like a bunny on LSD
GG PvP should never be used as an example of a PvP experience. You get the right situation and that 14k GS HR will very easily do what you claim he did. Those 7 people he killed very well could have all been 12k or lower characters as well.
Why GG pvp is not good example.. ITs just perfect.. Because 1 guy can give midle finger to 15+ players and they can't take even 10% of his HP. While when you face him 1vs1 and he got beated, no I should say annihilated. Because he could not take even 10%, Hell not even 5% of my HP.. Sounds interesting isin't. Tough guy who can give midle finger to 15+ players got annihilated by 1 SW which don't have uber top end gear...
@ to anyone.. it is not confirmed that jumping cause glitch. I just wrote What I seen, maybe there where some lag/glitch or whatever.
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
@ to anyone.. it is not confirmed that jumping cause glitch. I just wrote What I seen, maybe there where some lag/glitch or whatever.
@bloodyspamer: oh I don't doubt you truly believe that is what you have seen, except that's got nothing to do with whether its what actually happened or not.
I've learned more than 20 years ago that what people think they've seen, and what actually happened are two entirely different things. That's the reason why people learned that it was important to check the records and cross-reference each other to get an accurate picture of what might have happened -- instead of trust anecdotes and hearsay on face value.
Memory is a faulty thing, and it applies to anyone, even myself. Often there are times I see a WTF?! situation, and then have to go back and check the log records to see it was nothing out of the ordinary. These things happen all the time.
Macros been used since day one to switch armor and land combos faster. Macros are in itself a grey area when it comes to cheats/abuse as its does what you can do ingame just faster and more accurate. However you can also use macros to abort actions or combocansel as its also called to abuse broken mechanics ingame.
Then we come to the real cheats like tracking devices and client hacking whish also been used but that require a much deeper skillset and must be adapted with every patch.
In most mmo games there are tools used by devs to monitor 3rd programs but I daubt NW uses that. If you report a player the norm is that a dev logs on and uses these tools to confirm cheats then ban the person in question as you never get a responce from NW for a couple of days it is highly unlikely they have that option here.
There will always be some very skilled programers that can figure out how to bend the rules in a game the more you can gain from it both monetary and gamewise the more common it will be.
From what i seen its not very common in NW but that some high end pvp guilds use it there is no question about....
actually macros are not a grey area and are against ToS
@bloodyspamer: oh I don't doubt you truly believe that is what you have seen, except that's got nothing to do with whether its what actually happened or not.
I've learned more than 20 years ago that what people think they've seen, and what actually happened are two entirely different things. That's the reason why people learned that it was important to check the records and cross-reference each other to get an accurate picture of what might have happened -- instead of trust anecdotes and hearsay on face value.
Memory is a faulty thing, and it applies to anyone, even myself. Often there are times I see a WTF?! situation, and then have to go back and check the log records to see it was nothing out of the ordinary. These things happen all the time.
Gotta fully agree with this! Gear + skill will result in casual players yelling "hax" (and being serious about it) all the time. Proof is everything. That and a reliable system for preventing/removing exploits and hacks in game.
They didn't fix the astral resonator bug for a long time, did that mean it wasn't broken?
They still haven't fixed the soul forged with res sickness bug, does that mean it's not broken?
What about the heads of Tiamat that don't always rise? I guess because they haven't fixed that it's not broken.
They probably don't know how to fix the jump bug, but clearly it's like getting extra dodges without the cost of stamina. So yes, it is a bug.
I wouldn't say it's a bug. You try to shoot where something is not. Miss. End of story.
It might even seem like a bug: Net delays make you see the enemy on the ground, while on his machine he's clearly in midair, the server mushes these two things up and decides what to do, sometimes his thumb goes up, and sometimes down. The higher your ping, the higher the chance (not meant as "random chance") that this discrepancy affects your aim. This is the story there, not the one that it is a bug.
So, to be on the safer side, it's wise to aim a bit high...
All the while, making jumping cost a wee bit of stamina wouldn't seem like a bad idea to me. But it plain and simple it is not a bug, not an exploit, just a way to help you mislead your enemy. But all by the rules.
i agree...its used as a way to "dodge" another player's attacks, it should deplete stamina, just like a GWF sprint or a TR stealth reduction as well. when you start to see GWF or GWs even hop around from node to node, especially in GG, it's like being on monkey island.
lol. this is funny. i liked how someone mentioned how 'older' players have issues with this the most. as what i would consider an older gamer, I totally hate trying to fight someone who's jumping all over the place. seriously makes me feel like a man out of my league, but a league i don't want to be a part of to begin with if that's what it takes to win.
and yeah, it was mostly rangers when I used to try pvp. probably trs too, but they were invisible most of the time so i couldn't see if they were jumping or not.
the jumping around reminds me of when i tried out a fps pvp for the first time (way late in the game compared to most) and learned that people would jump around snapping their scoped weapon for a fast kill. like what??? to me, playing like that isn't even fun. but i guess i'm just old.
It isn't that I am old as to why I dislike the jumping, but it might be that I am simply too smart (being of at least average intelligence). I prefer a certain degree of realism in my fantasy (such a phrase often seems to trouble the younger players), and by that I mean that actions and things of non magical abilities should behave similarly in the fantasy world as they do in real. I would be just as bothered if swords had longer attack ranges than archery or if we swung weapons with our feat while walking on our hands. I am not saying that jumping should not be allowed, simply that one should suffer the penalties one might expect when hit while aloft and vulnerable in such a manner (e.g. auto crit, increased damage, good chance to be proned, etc).
Introduce Quake 1 style Speed Bunny Hopping to Neverwinter! Yay!
Okay, bad joke. Yes, have jumping deplete stamina as others have suggested - problem solved.
0
nevervisitMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 19Arc User
edited March 2015
Since I'm an HR main, built for PvP. We all have hit boxes... a moving and bouncing target is harder for you to hit than if I stayed on a single plane.
Watch the veteran players who fight vs the monkeyhoppers. They time their encounters and hop step along with them. Ever watch a GF *****slap a HR out of the air with a well timed jumping bullcharge? I have, and I also do it to others. Just think about it this way.. if I'm on the ground, and you shoot me in that area, I could make you miss cause now I've jumped in the air, and it usually isn't a straight up jump, we move around, switch stances in the air (as there are feats that encourage stance dancing) then encounter you in between. It's really a beautiful thing to witness.
Comments
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
There's no stat-grabbable disadvantages. It primarilly serves to confuse, make the red one lose track of your whereabouts - that's the legit part of it. It can effect - especially towards higher ping users - action cancels: The target simply isn't where the "shooter" anticipated it to be @ t = +300ms, based on data gathered @ t = -600ms. NW is somewhat lenient in that aspect, rather erring in favor of the attacker, but...
Also, the effect is greater the closer to the bunnyjumper you are, and the greater the changes of movement vector are.
The effect in this game is marginal in comparison to others, especially ofc egoshooters, because a) there's auto-lock-on for most ranged skills, b) aformentioned leniency regarding this, and c) all classes also have AoE attacks which serve OK as a workaround, though often at a certain loss of attack rate or damage...
Lastly, crits are purely determined by RNG, no "headshot crit box" as in an egoshooter.
Its crappily immersion breaking when that PvP-guild preform comes bouncing down the GG halways like someone tossed a handful of ping-pong balls, though...
...makes it obvious you're anyway probably facing 120k GS then, so - run or die.
I sometimes miss the even older ones... ...DOOM, where the 2D / pseudo-3D map coordinates didn't even offer the option :^[)
They are trying to trick YOU, not trick the game in to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> you.
(a) pure habit
(b) timing/rythm
(c) throwing off combo attacks
(d) extending attack reach
(a) is simply what it states. Habit.
(b) is also a type of (a). Sometimes people jump habitually to count, or regulate self rythm. Why do some fighters/boxers hop around when they can just walk around? Same thing. Sometimes it helps them concentrate, so its also a type of habit
(c) is usually for classes with high movement speeds, like TRs or HRs, and is intended to throw off attacks or mess up enemy attack timing. The best example is against gap-closers. What happens if you jump around during fights? When a certain class uses a leap/lunge type of gap-closer, it doesn't land him at where the target is currently. It lands him where the target
WAS when the gap closer was initially activated. Even if the gap-closer lands, when the wielder has finished moving/teleporting via the gap-closer, there is a certain bit of distance created. Jumping extends this distance as far as possible.Practical example: WK TR's VP. When you land a VP from stealth it has a very short stun. So if the target just walks around everywhere, when VP hits, then the target is stunned and can be hit with follow-ups. However, when a very fast moving TR or HR jumps around, if is activated during when the target is in mid-air, guess what happens: VP takes you to that position, but after the apex of the jump the target is actually further away, and the distance is further away so immediate follow attacks may not connect.
(d) is for melees usually - think about the TR jumping DF technique.
There's nothing wrong with jumping. The only thing wrong with it, if there is such a thing, is some people don't like it visually.
Like yesterday during GG, 1 ranger keep bounced almost all pvp time, and you know 15+ players could not take more than 10% of his HP. And he more less killed 7 then gived midle finger and moved to other place. Too bad I didn't record that. Guys gear score ~14.
I still have doom 1~3, quake 1~3 original CD's
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
No more legit pvp players? Naive question.
.Suicide Squad.
targetlocking is something the game itself seems to allow...i would disable it.
regards
.Suicide Squad.
IMO it does. Some abilities target ground areas, not players. If you are not standig in the affected area, bc you are in the air, you are not affected.
The only thing that's being more and more abused is the way how people simply forget the burden of proof and decide to claim any half-arsed, baseless rumour or lie without any proof or evidence whatsoever, and then send it whirling around the community as if it has any weight.
This "jump myth" has about as much credibility as Elvis sightings.
Hey, it's totally fine if I'm proven wrong. It's even better for the game if it is proven, since then we can ask for the devs to fix it. All anyone needs to do, is present evidence. For that last year and a half, no body was able to whenever this discussion came up.
Let's see if someone can do so this time.
WTB Class Reroll please
So I have to record how can I use those "tricks" , then prove to you and get ban. No thanks. If you dont want to believe, we will not convince you.
.Suicide Squad.
Macros been used since day one to switch armor and land combos faster. Macros are in itself a grey area when it comes to cheats/abuse as its does what you can do ingame just faster and more accurate. However you can also use macros to abort actions or combocansel as its also called to abuse broken mechanics ingame.
Then we come to the real cheats like tracking devices and client hacking whish also been used but that require a much deeper skillset and must be adapted with every patch.
In most mmo games there are tools used by devs to monitor 3rd programs but I daubt NW uses that. If you report a player the norm is that a dev logs on and uses these tools to confirm cheats then ban the person in question as you never get a responce from NW for a couple of days it is highly unlikely they have that option here.
There will always be some very skilled programers that can figure out how to bend the rules in a game the more you can gain from it both monetary and gamewise the more common it will be.
From what i seen its not very common in NW but that some high end pvp guilds use it there is no question about....
as caster class i did see some hunter jumping like apes nonstop, but...they died same way as not jumping, and i didn´t recognized that i missed more when casting, only effect is they sometimes jump out of your hitbox, but performed very bad in doing that all time, thats probabaly the problem for melle-classes who have to time more accurat their hits
tbh it looks redicules jumping all time, even if 3 mates are beside you and wait to cap, its anoying if some freak jumps all time like a bunny on LSD
Why GG pvp is not good example.. ITs just perfect.. Because 1 guy can give midle finger to 15+ players and they can't take even 10% of his HP. While when you face him 1vs1 and he got beated, no I should say annihilated. Because he could not take even 10%, Hell not even 5% of my HP.. Sounds interesting isin't. Tough guy who can give midle finger to 15+ players got annihilated by 1 SW which don't have uber top end gear...
@ to anyone.. it is not confirmed that jumping cause glitch. I just wrote What I seen, maybe there where some lag/glitch or whatever.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
You would have made one helluva inquisitor/witch hunter in the medieval ages.
@bloodyspamer: oh I don't doubt you truly believe that is what you have seen, except that's got nothing to do with whether its what actually happened or not.
I've learned more than 20 years ago that what people think they've seen, and what actually happened are two entirely different things. That's the reason why people learned that it was important to check the records and cross-reference each other to get an accurate picture of what might have happened -- instead of trust anecdotes and hearsay on face value.
Memory is a faulty thing, and it applies to anyone, even myself. Often there are times I see a WTF?! situation, and then have to go back and check the log records to see it was nothing out of the ordinary. These things happen all the time.
actually macros are not a grey area and are against ToS
Gotta fully agree with this! Gear + skill will result in casual players yelling "hax" (and being serious about it) all the time. Proof is everything. That and a reliable system for preventing/removing exploits and hacks in game.
They didn't fix the astral resonator bug for a long time, did that mean it wasn't broken?
They still haven't fixed the soul forged with res sickness bug, does that mean it's not broken?
What about the heads of Tiamat that don't always rise? I guess because they haven't fixed that it's not broken.
They probably don't know how to fix the jump bug, but clearly it's like getting extra dodges without the cost of stamina. So yes, it is a bug.
Need to prove that it's broken first. Everything you've mentioned had proof. Pics, videos, etc..
What proof do you have with the jump bug again? So far, for the last year and a half, nothing.
Nobody here is against fixing something that's proven to be broken. Just prove it first.
I wouldn't say it's a bug. You try to shoot where something is not. Miss. End of story.
It might even seem like a bug: Net delays make you see the enemy on the ground, while on his machine he's clearly in midair, the server mushes these two things up and decides what to do, sometimes his thumb goes up, and sometimes down. The higher your ping, the higher the chance (not meant as "random chance") that this discrepancy affects your aim. This is the story there, not the one that it is a bug.
So, to be on the safer side, it's wise to aim a bit high...
All the while, making jumping cost a wee bit of stamina wouldn't seem like a bad idea to me. But it plain and simple it is not a bug, not an exploit, just a way to help you mislead your enemy. But all by the rules.
and yeah, it was mostly rangers when I used to try pvp. probably trs too, but they were invisible most of the time so i couldn't see if they were jumping or not.
the jumping around reminds me of when i tried out a fps pvp for the first time (way late in the game compared to most) and learned that people would jump around snapping their scoped weapon for a fast kill. like what??? to me, playing like that isn't even fun. but i guess i'm just old.
This is getting very old.
Okay, bad joke. Yes, have jumping deplete stamina as others have suggested - problem solved.
Watch the veteran players who fight vs the monkeyhoppers. They time their encounters and hop step along with them. Ever watch a GF *****slap a HR out of the air with a well timed jumping bullcharge? I have, and I also do it to others. Just think about it this way.. if I'm on the ground, and you shoot me in that area, I could make you miss cause now I've jumped in the air, and it usually isn't a straight up jump, we move around, switch stances in the air (as there are feats that encourage stance dancing) then encounter you in between. It's really a beautiful thing to witness.