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Tiamat in Module 6

abaddon523abaddon523 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Seven brave adventurers and myself attempted to banish Tiamat back to the Nine Hells on the preview server. The eight of us managed to kill off the five mini-bosses, grab gems, kill Severin, protect the clerics for one round, and attempt one run on the heads of Tiamat (mainly the Black and Red ones) before time ran out. I logged the Encounter with ACT and after looking through the data I have some observations about how the Tiamat tactics will need to change going forward:

Conclusion 1: Gems from each head will be MANDATORY for any successful run.

The predominant tactic for fighting Tiamat right now focuses on grabbing a bunch of green and blue gems and just sort of ignoring the rest. If no one has a black gem it's not a big problem. Well, now it's a big problem. Damage from the heads and especially the breath has been increased astronomically.

2efkcon.jpg

A few things to notice from this pic. Breath from the Black head has base damage from 118k to 136k. Additionally, the black dragon breath places a debuff on you. One poor adventurer took a 738k hit because of a 571% debuff from the breath. That debuff actually got up to 737%. So...yeah. Breath from the Black dragon will wipe out a run. The Red Tiamat Head isn't much better. The base damage on its breath is 120k to 180k. Even the bites of these dragons are in the 55-90k range.

Conclusion 2: Common enemies hit hard. Really, really hard.

Drawing aggro while protecting the clerics is a death wish. Let me introduce you to Legion Devil [134]. He likes to kill adventurers.

28bek95.jpg

Yes, that is base damage between 58k and 150k. The moment these enemies were not stunned/frozen/dazed we were dead. One Tiamat roar at the wrong time and you are just flat out screwed. Keep in mind, you're facing at least five of these at a time. Even putting Shield on tab made no difference. There's just no defense against this much damage.

Also these enemies have over 2 million HP. Some have over 3 million. When they spawn you're stuck with them for a long time. Just nuking them won't work. Control is the name of the game.

Conclusion 3: Armor Penetration...Get it.

The heads of Tiamat have 60% Damage Resistance. To offset that, you'll need 60% resistance ignored. That means well over 6k Armor Penetration. Otherwise you'll have a hard time putting a dent in Tiamat.

Conclusion 4: Tiamat can still be beaten...but not with random queues.

With a totally decked out group of 25, with everyone coordinated, everyone firing off gems when needed we probably could have beaten Tiamat. That we got as far as we did with only 8 indicates that much. The problem is, with a random 25 people all at different stages of experience, gear, and skill I don't think it is possible. The DPS needed for this is huge. Severin had 12 million HP. We have no idea how much HP the heads have (since the heads annihilated us before we could do much damage to them) but it sure looked like a lot more than on live. The rate of failure on Tiamat runs will be over 90%, no question.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by abaddon523 on
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Comments

  • theastromachinetheastromachine Member Posts: 83 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    More and more reason to fix the queue system so we can actually form parties to do this boss fight.
  • lazaroth666lazaroth666 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,332 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    abaddon523 wrote: »

    Conclusion 3: Armor Penetration...Get it.

    The heads of Tiamat have 60% Damage Resistance. To offset that, you'll need 60% resistance ignored. That means well over 6k Armor Penetration. Otherwise you'll have a hard time putting a dent in Tiamat.

    If 400 = 1%, wouldn't it be 24.000 ArPen for 60%? 6000/400 is only 15% ArPen or am I missing something? Thanks for the data.
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  • scathiasscathias Member Posts: 1,174 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Armor pen on preview is actually 100=1%
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  • rawlor9krawlor9k Member Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Thank you Abaddon, fine work as always.

    I don't have an issue with them making the game tougher. That was needed. I do have an issue with them making things obnoxious. I have even more of an issue of "revamping" old content and wrapping it up as "newer/harder" for new gear. It's frustrating. With nothing new to do I'm almost thinking I'm going to hit level 70 and then take a break until mod 7.
  • animalustanimalust Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 573 Bounty Hunter
    edited March 2015
    If 400 = 1%, wouldn't it be 24.000 ArPen for 60%? 6000/400 is only 15% ArPen or am I missing something? Thanks for the data.

    No actually Armor Pen is considerably higher per point compared to the others. shoudl be 100 =1% at 70, Its the only Stat that the % gained per stat went higher in Mod 6 after lvl 60.



    Nice info btw, Didn't know Tiamat was at 60% DR don't tend to notice since so many people run with DR debuffs etc.

    Makes me really unsure how to build my SW in mod 6 -.-
  • scathiasscathias Member Posts: 1,174 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    tiamat only has 60% DR on preview. on Live it is still 24% just like all the other bosses
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  • animalustanimalust Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 573 Bounty Hunter
    edited March 2015
    scathias wrote: »
    tiamat only has 60% DR on preview. on Live it is still 24% just like all the other bosses

    most classes wont have an issue with this. they just moved a decimal over and called it an upgrade = Mod 6

    "almost" everything we can do on Live we will be able to do later, the problem and difference being the loss of fan favorite Armor Set Bonuses since there will be clear stat difference from the current Best Gear to the lvl 70 best gear, and of course the wonky *** LifeSTeal and loss of Regen.

    That new Elemental set reallllly need a better bonus for SW..
  • iambecks1iambecks1 Member Posts: 4,044 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Ugh lol , I can already see the raging and swearing and ranting and scapegoating that will become commonplace until everybody finds their feet :x
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  • pointsmanpointsman Member Posts: 2,327 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    So they are turning up the difficulty to eleventy. Terrific.

    We will go from "easy mode" PVE, to "OMG I can't even do dailies without a tank and a healer" PVE.
  • zekethesinnerzekethesinner Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 805 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    pointsman wrote: »
    So they are turning up the difficulty to eleventy. Terrific.

    We will go from "easy mode" PVE, to "OMG I can't even do dailies without a tank and a healer" PVE.


    I dont know how about u, but i am amazed. We just need que for Tiamat now.

    (Sin)cerely
    Kain


  • wixxgs1chtwixxgs1cht Member Posts: 430 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    So, what can you do?

    Grab a pure Terror (same run):
    VxNbat8.png
    Everything balanced and working as intended :-D

    Seriously, though. Given the way Tiamat is scaled right now on Preview, you really wanna farm all the Linus you could ever need RIGHT NOW. AI's damage is completely through the roof to the point where you don't even need to try to get in unless you (and the rest of the instance, mind you) are completely decked out or utilize broken mechanics (see the screenshot above). Entering with less than 50k HP is, well, not recommended.
  • finnien42finnien42 Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    So mod 6 really will be the 'screw new players' mod. Boon progression in IWD will require groups, when it didn't before. Boon progression in Tyranny of the Dragons will require preformed groups for Tiamat, when it didn't before. Everything will require tanks and healers and guilds that previous players could just zerg and solo through. Nothing new added, just a bunch of changes to screw over players who don't already have all their campaign progression complete. That sounds AWESOME.
  • koalazebraiikoalazebraii Member Posts: 108 Bounty Hunter
    edited March 2015
    at least theres now a legitimate reason to be an elitist when doing tiamat, all undergeared can now gtfoo
  • zekethesinnerzekethesinner Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 805 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    at least theres now a legitimate reason to be an elitist when doing tiamat, all undergeared can now gtfoo

    Hie hie hie, they gave us end game, on they usual weird way, but still :P

    (Sin)cerely
    Kain


  • finnien42finnien42 Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Hie hie hie, they gave us end game, on they usual weird way, but still :P

    (Sin)cerely
    Kain

    Only problem is their endgame kind of screws over the solo campaign progression that was my favorite part of the game.
  • ipuaiwahaipuaiwaha Member Posts: 46 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    While in principle I like the idea of endgame content being hard, the reality is that most players will just demand higher and higher gear requirements for people they group with. Same thing happened in WoW; it's where Gearscore started, as an addon to track the gear of who you grouped with. I guess it's more incentive to join a guild.
  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,458 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    tousseau wrote: »
    Wel... if I want the last Dragon Boon, I guess I know what I'll be doing between now and launch...

    Yesterday I couldn't bear the thought of another 48 Tiamat runs for my CW (which would be the third to get the last boon). Instead I blew 18k Zen and went on a coffer buying spree. I'm that burned out on it.
    So mod 6 really will be the 'screw new players' mod.

    It appears to be worse than that. It will be the 'screw anyone who isn't a BiS PvP'er with full rank 10's' mod. I predict that the Safe Keeping IWD daily, the Drake Pens daily, and the Cult Prison daily will become so frustrating and infuriating that we'll see yet another mass exodus. Seriously, who wants to sit around in WoD spamming "lfg CP" for half an hour, every time the quest pops up?

    Back in my AD&D PnP days we called it "killer DM syndrome". My friends describe it as "the DM just wants to kill you", but IMHO it's a bit of a misnomer. To me it really means that the DM has lost sight of the fact that it's supposed to be a fun heroic fantasy game (special emphasis on "fun"). Frustrating encounters and endless hamster wheels are by no means fun -- except perhaps for people who are sado-masochistic, or people who enjoy comparing the size of...erm...certain parts of their anatomy to rivals.

    If trying to do Gurth's daily quest to kill polar bears becomes more like trying to get a Mother Lode group going (where you're dying over and over and over again), I'll gladly just pass, and I suspect that the vast majority of players who aren't BiS PvP elitists will as well.

    Devs, consider the source of whatever feedback you're getting re: difficulty. It appears to be badly biased.
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  • zephyrpillar1zephyrpillar1 Member Posts: 125 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Well, this was interesting
  • rversantrversant Member Posts: 896 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    wixxgs1cht wrote: »
    So, what can you do?

    Grab a pure Terror (same run):
    VxNbat8.png
    Everything balanced and working as intended :-D

    Seriously, though. Given the way Tiamat is scaled right now on Preview, you really wanna farm all the Linus you could ever need RIGHT NOW. AI's damage is completely through the roof to the point where you don't even need to try to get in unless you (and the rest of the instance, mind you) are completely decked out or utilize broken mechanics (see the screenshot above). Entering with less than 50k HP is, well, not recommended.

    I seriously hope that the terror damage is bugged then...
    if not. That needs a ridiulous nerf. a weapon enchantment shouldn't do 66% of your dps.

    Edit : whats the damage from a P/T Bile look like then? hahaha
    People are way too negative, Why cant we just all get along.


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  • rollingonitrollingonit Member Posts: 1,322 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Saw that. Just thought to myself wow... sigh... wow...

    If thats not bugged... idk what to think. Think about players with no enchants.... how much damage... wow.... much wow.
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  • denvalddenvald Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 702 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I would be ok with this change if we could form groups for this.
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  • lazaroth666lazaroth666 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,332 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    animalust wrote: »
    No actually Armor Pen is considerably higher per point compared to the others. shoudl be 100 =1% at 70, Its the only Stat that the % gained per stat went higher in Mod 6 after lvl 60.

    Thanks a lot for answering my question. :)
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  • methecsgodmethecsgod Member Posts: 163 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I have absolutely no problem with this. It will take time to beat Tiamat, it will be a challenge, people will compete for first ever etc. Noone should be able to finish a boss raid on day 1.
  • finnien42finnien42 Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    methecsgod wrote: »
    I have absolutely no problem with this. It will take time to beat Tiamat, it will be a challenge, people will compete for first ever etc. Noone should be able to finish a boss raid on day 1.

    What about the fact that the boons require 80 Tiamat kills?
  • piejalpiejal Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 403 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Need item level req for tiamat at least 2500-2700
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I WOULD have no problem with this, IF we could do it premade. The way it is now, with 10k PuGs, it will be undoable.
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  • methecsgodmethecsgod Member Posts: 163 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    finnien42 wrote: »
    What about the fact that the boons require 80 Tiamat kills?

    Once you gear up, you will be able to kill Tiamat the same way as now. 80 kills is, what, a couple weeks?
  • lirithiellirithiel Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Maybe now players will attempt to take on Tiamat the way it was meant to be done - 5/5. I was never and still am not a fan of this braindead zerg tactic.
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