In pnp, high level magic users were always more powerfull than fighters. Imagine a battle between a wizard and a fighter in any fantasy setting, who will win?
Therefore its only natural that computer games lean in this direction.
Omg where to start to a statement like this :-).
First of all a pnp world is led by a GM that can adjust balance at his lesure second of all there are so many things in pnp that dont work in computor based world like anti magic items for others often the bane for high wizard of note.
In pnp wizard has 1d4 hp worriors have d10 items are resticted and heavely resticed at that there is no wiz with high hp high ac in pnp the differance is so huge its makes to no sence to draw a parallel like that.
In a computor game if one class is to become more powerful then all the others by default its going to become the most played class and makes the other classes non valid from start.
If you have different classes it can be for 2 major reasons in a game;
1. Each class has its strenght and weakness and when combined they can do things not possible by each alone.
2. All classes more or less do the same damage has the same abilitys in various ways but it comes down to rolyplay feeling if you want to swing a sword, shoot an arrow, fire a magic missile or smite them with the power of your God.
In NW as I see it its strenght and weakness that define the classes and therefore giving one class the ablity to become better then all the other classes is wrong in lieu of balance.
If you have a game where the strenght of tanks is to be able to withstand heavy damage and protect the party is negated so that they no longer has a role because the party withstand the heavy damage even better and dont need protection from tanks- well then the tanks has played its part and are no longer valid as a class.
If that is the game you want to play you soon find that NW will be left empty with a few left over cws trs(trying to get into some non existant pvp) and soon shut down as it no longer has any players.
In the end its up the players to stay or leave and the devs to wake up and smell the coffe either way making it go toward *AGE OF CASTERS* has been the downfall of every single game I seen...
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Agreed on both statements. CWs will be able to reach a barrier of DR hardly penetrable by fighters while being able to nulify fighters' DR easily with their powers (oh and since terror is a new bis...). Cryptic does have an a possession by wizards, CW has always been a class to dominate this game alone. Combine shield, Negation some DR and it will be just frustrating.
Except to get that bonus, the caster would need to be hit 10 times...at which point I would figured they'd be dead, right? (in PvP)
Except to get that bonus, the caster would need to be hit 10 times...at which point I would figured they'd be dead, right? (in PvP)
How about this, if there is an armor enchant ( Negation on preview ) which can allow a cloth wearing caster reach DR levels of a Plate Armor warrior, then lets have a weapon enchant that turns the heaviest melee attacks into ranged attacks. Would that be acceptable to the ranged class players? Would you like a 35k IBS crit from 80 feet away? The point of me playing a melee and you playing ranged is that Im strong in close quarters, I get near you I can drop you and you are strong at 80 feet away - you avoid me you drop me. With Negation, I get near you - you tank me! I main a GWF and I do PVP, the attacks I land on Wizards most often are my at-wills, because with current dodge its a piece of cake to avoid the fighter encounters.
Regardless if its PVE or PVP the devs are pretty much leading us toward 1 weapon and 1 armor enchant if things are to remain as they are on preview right now. If a CW can have very high ranged damage, CC, high HP, high ArmPen, 100% crit, a rank12 Terror and capped DR, then why would I or anybody else spend resources on playing a GWF/GF/Paladin? Heck, I still got enough saved in my bank to take a brand new CW from zero to BiS in a day and join the easy club. But I dont wanna do that, I like my warriors.
All I want is some freakin' level playing field, that aint too much to ask is it?
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Except to get that bonus, the caster would need to be hit 10 times...at which point I would figured they'd be dead, right? (in PvP)
The Cw in high geared already on live has reached tankiness beyond imagination.45k hp ,35% DR ,shield on tab and three long immunity dodges that -what the helll-provide DAMAGE IMMUNITY one sec after they are done,these feats qualify for me that already in mod5 pvp specced CWs have reached dangerously the tanks protection or even surpassed it.
Combine these with dot damage,procs(assailant) and the bugged storm spell and you see why overall in pages 1-1000 CWs dominate even before broken TRs and in first 100 pages CWs are only behind TRs.
There is a sceleton in the closet ,in our case in NW the hidden survivability of ranged and especially CWs.
When a class has roughly the same protection with a tank but 4x the DPS and the CC,for me there is a problem.
To be more spesific in your question,the negation will give the extra time to the Cw with his dots and procs to finish you off.
Cws can be fought when they caught by surprise or stunned/proned.Negation will make them a lot harder to finish them off.And if you do not finish them off as a tank fast ,then there is a little hope before the CWs dot/procs/storm spell/cc finish you off.
GF shield lasts 8 secs ,GWFs unstop 6.
0
katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
If you add a cooldown then you'll never be able to actually reach the max stack amount.
Oh, and also make it useless.
The negation stacks fall off pretty fast. I have one on PTR and its pretty rough to try and maintain full stacks. Most of the time in PVP my guess is you wont have much more than 4 stacks.
The negation stacks fall off pretty fast. I have one on PTR and its pretty rough to try and maintain full stacks. Most of the time in PVP my guess is you wont have much more than 4 stacks.
However each stack doesnt refresh old ones, so once you get to 10 stacks the first one you got is already falling off... So if you are in constant battle (basically in PVE) you might have 6+ stacks up
In PVP there will be times with no stacks and times with a few stacks.
However each stack doesnt refresh old ones, so once you get to 10 stacks the first one you got is already falling off... So if you are in constant battle (basically in PVE) you might have 6+ stacks up
In PVP there will be times with no stacks and times with a few stacks.
True but I see this enchant coming to life in PVP on node 2 with a cleric healing. Especially with someone debuffing incoming damage
In pnp, high level magic users were always more powerfull than fighters. Imagine a battle between a wizard and a fighter in any fantasy setting, who will win?
Therefore its only natural that computer games lean in this direction.
And the battle between wizards and warriors began moreover oldest battle that his own existence! this time I'm out
BUT: Time Stop --- > Gate ---> Solar ---> Win. (PnP Lv20 D&D 3ª)
And then managed to get close?
hum ... MAYBE A ROGUE ...(these rather a magician SHOULD be afraid)
And the battle between wizards and warriors began moreover oldest battle that his own existence! this time I'm out
BUT: Time Stop --- > Gate ---> Solar ---> Win. (PnP Lv20 D&D 3ª)
And then managed to get close?
hum ... MAYBE A ROGUE ...(these rather a magician SHOULD be afraid)
Well a rogue can sneak behind the wizard and kill him with one backstab. Unless the wizard had true sight or some kind of magical protection.
But a frontal assault on a wizard, that's suicide
^
DR seems to be less and less desirable already.
Most DPS setups already has about 30% ArP in. With mod6 changes, this figure will soar towards 40-50%.
AH prices has also shown this trend more or less. Radiants are most expensive now, with the rest dropping in price or not receiving a good market. Stats are difficult to stack in mod6 and novelty enchantments with mixed stats like crit/deflect have their prices pretty much sliced after preview was up.
Dark enchantments more or less maintained but many are aware you don't need to stack it hardcore to reach respectable levels.
We can say or hope these are speculations since mod6 hasn't gone 'live'. But I believe this scenario will not deviate too much unless Cryptic decides to contemplate a major change again.
Back on Negation and DR. One probably can maintain about 5-6 stacks at optimum point like someone already pointed out. That gives 15-18% DR (which isn't really alot). In PvP, ArP just cuts right through with the ArP boosted as stated above.
Consider a few things:
- Armor Penetration will also be higher in the new module; Negation will only be useful if your DR isn't already being fully mitigated. Otherwise, you'll need to stack it to the point where it beats the opponent's ArP before it even becomes useful.
- Increasing DR gives increasing rewards up to the limit (and even then, stacking above the limit helps offset ArP). So it helps characters more the higher their DR is to begin with.
- The stacks don't stay up forever. To build and refresh them requires being hit with a lot of attacks. Currently, neither GWFs nor GFs run around hitting people with DoT attacks, nor do they use rays or beams that quickly hits someone with a bunch of ticks. (Now, they might be tempted to switch to plaguefire, which would give some of those properties.) Both melee classes predominantly rely on hitting with combos of a few strong single attacks.
All that is subject to the precise mechanics, but it looks like Negation will basically shine the most for heavily armored characters being struck by a CW spamming Ray of Frost, not the other way around.
A GWF in usntop can stack 10 negations on you in a 2 seconds with sure strike. On LIVE, dodging classes have a very easy time avoiding the fighter enconters. GWFs dont have gap-closing encounters, so they tend to run to the wizard and spam at-wills. If you dont know that you dont pvp, if you dont pvp please do not comment on it. Also many folks run PF, even more folks have only 1 weapon enchant and cant afford to switch perfects for each fight. Even half stacks of Negation would be +15% DR which is pretty much what the new Sentinel 5 point feat gives.
Classes with weaker armor and lower DR who already have high (ranged) dps/cc/dodge and/or deflect will be the ones to benefit the most from preview Negation because it will make up for the one thing they lack.
And last but not least, Panderus mains a CW
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Hahahaha. This pizza compagny doesn't use anchovies because the boss' little cousin doesn't like it.
Dude, it's time for you to take a rest.
How many of the design decisions are based on their own experience from internal testing and actual playing hm? Seeing as how they tend to ignore player generated feedback, Id say they base most of it on their own perspectives. Combine this with the fact that devs and mods seem to simply be bad at this game ( Akromatic's infamous PVP failures ) and you can get a good idea of why so many things are out of line or flat out imbalanced.
Im not saying they favour the CW class because person A mains one. I am saying any class can get a boost or nerf based on a misconception on the devs part originating from their lack of ability to play their own game.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Post dissecting and taking sentences out of context is an online practice I abhor so I will not be drawn into it. I've said what I had to say and for the record if your dodger doesnt dodge intimidation then any more talking is pointless.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
No, GWFs don't currently play like that unless they're bad or undergeared. The good GWFs in PvP currently all rely on big hits from intimidation to inflict the majority of their damage, not spamming Sure Strike. Non-intimidation GWFs (none really exist at the higher end of PvP) will use stun lock + IBS.
lulz, GWFs both intimidation and Non-Intimidation spam sure strike, Intimidation spam it to get 5 stacks of weapon master to get more deflect and crit, non-intimidation (obviously destroyer since nobody plays instigator) spam it to get stacks of destroyer's purpose.
u wot m8?
goldenregisMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 11Arc User
edited February 2015
Can this stupid OFF-TOPIC PvP stuff end? make your own d*mn thread. This thread was to discuss the enchant reworks, and now it's devolved into PvP b*tching
Heh. Mod 0 player/guild, "The Jolly Rogers"
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited February 2015
Welcome to every single thread discussing any sort of official, unofficial or proposed change to the game.
There is not a single thread that falls under these topics that isn't quickly consumed by the same people bickering about PvP.
the purpose by the same people who think the game is eminently PVP and that this supposed game was made just for them only because they feel this right because they are avid consumers! living democracy and care for here one can not say everything except the white knights delete such your post...hilarious...because i love watch the theory of micro-power in action...rofl
the purpose by the same people who think the game is eminently PVP and that this supposed game was made just for them only because they feel this right because they are avid consumers! living democracy and care for here one can not say everything except the white knights delete such your post...hilarious...because i love watch the theory of micro-power in action...rofl
come on quit *****ing
protector enclave is full of "really perfect terror is going to be bis? wtf i have a vorpal someone wants to trade" ??
perfect vorpal + soulforged will still be bis in pve no matter how much they buff weapon damage.
so while creating and answering to this thread people will always keep a pvp point of view.
come on read the enchants, those have all pvp effects.
40% debuff to power? dr on damage taken with high stacks loss/second? debuff to recovery? you may not like pvp but these enchants have primary affect that.
Comments
Omg where to start to a statement like this :-).
First of all a pnp world is led by a GM that can adjust balance at his lesure second of all there are so many things in pnp that dont work in computor based world like anti magic items for others often the bane for high wizard of note.
In pnp wizard has 1d4 hp worriors have d10 items are resticted and heavely resticed at that there is no wiz with high hp high ac in pnp the differance is so huge its makes to no sence to draw a parallel like that.
In a computor game if one class is to become more powerful then all the others by default its going to become the most played class and makes the other classes non valid from start.
If you have different classes it can be for 2 major reasons in a game;
1. Each class has its strenght and weakness and when combined they can do things not possible by each alone.
2. All classes more or less do the same damage has the same abilitys in various ways but it comes down to rolyplay feeling if you want to swing a sword, shoot an arrow, fire a magic missile or smite them with the power of your God.
In NW as I see it its strenght and weakness that define the classes and therefore giving one class the ablity to become better then all the other classes is wrong in lieu of balance.
If you have a game where the strenght of tanks is to be able to withstand heavy damage and protect the party is negated so that they no longer has a role because the party withstand the heavy damage even better and dont need protection from tanks- well then the tanks has played its part and are no longer valid as a class.
If that is the game you want to play you soon find that NW will be left empty with a few left over cws trs(trying to get into some non existant pvp) and soon shut down as it no longer has any players.
In the end its up the players to stay or leave and the devs to wake up and smell the coffe either way making it go toward *AGE OF CASTERS* has been the downfall of every single game I seen...
Except to get that bonus, the caster would need to be hit 10 times...at which point I would figured they'd be dead, right? (in PvP)
WTB Class Reroll please
How about this, if there is an armor enchant ( Negation on preview ) which can allow a cloth wearing caster reach DR levels of a Plate Armor warrior, then lets have a weapon enchant that turns the heaviest melee attacks into ranged attacks. Would that be acceptable to the ranged class players? Would you like a 35k IBS crit from 80 feet away? The point of me playing a melee and you playing ranged is that Im strong in close quarters, I get near you I can drop you and you are strong at 80 feet away - you avoid me you drop me. With Negation, I get near you - you tank me! I main a GWF and I do PVP, the attacks I land on Wizards most often are my at-wills, because with current dodge its a piece of cake to avoid the fighter encounters.
Regardless if its PVE or PVP the devs are pretty much leading us toward 1 weapon and 1 armor enchant if things are to remain as they are on preview right now. If a CW can have very high ranged damage, CC, high HP, high ArmPen, 100% crit, a rank12 Terror and capped DR, then why would I or anybody else spend resources on playing a GWF/GF/Paladin? Heck, I still got enough saved in my bank to take a brand new CW from zero to BiS in a day and join the easy club. But I dont wanna do that, I like my warriors.
All I want is some freakin' level playing field, that aint too much to ask is it?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
The Cw in high geared already on live has reached tankiness beyond imagination.45k hp ,35% DR ,shield on tab and three long immunity dodges that -what the helll-provide DAMAGE IMMUNITY one sec after they are done,these feats qualify for me that already in mod5 pvp specced CWs have reached dangerously the tanks protection or even surpassed it.
Combine these with dot damage,procs(assailant) and the bugged storm spell and you see why overall in pages 1-1000 CWs dominate even before broken TRs and in first 100 pages CWs are only behind TRs.
There is a sceleton in the closet ,in our case in NW the hidden survivability of ranged and especially CWs.
When a class has roughly the same protection with a tank but 4x the DPS and the CC,for me there is a problem.
To be more spesific in your question,the negation will give the extra time to the Cw with his dots and procs to finish you off.
Cws can be fought when they caught by surprise or stunned/proned.Negation will make them a lot harder to finish them off.And if you do not finish them off as a tank fast ,then there is a little hope before the CWs dot/procs/storm spell/cc finish you off.
GF shield lasts 8 secs ,GWFs unstop 6.
Oh, and also make it useless.
The negation stacks fall off pretty fast. I have one on PTR and its pretty rough to try and maintain full stacks. Most of the time in PVP my guess is you wont have much more than 4 stacks.
But even that is ALOT of DR.
Isnt one point for stack?
I think its 3% DR per stack.
However each stack doesnt refresh old ones, so once you get to 10 stacks the first one you got is already falling off... So if you are in constant battle (basically in PVE) you might have 6+ stacks up
In PVP there will be times with no stacks and times with a few stacks.
True but I see this enchant coming to life in PVP on node 2 with a cleric healing. Especially with someone debuffing incoming damage
And the battle between wizards and warriors began moreover oldest battle that his own existence! this time I'm out
BUT: Time Stop --- > Gate ---> Solar ---> Win. (PnP Lv20 D&D 3ª)
And then managed to get close?
hum ... MAYBE A ROGUE ...(these rather a magician SHOULD be afraid)
But a frontal assault on a wizard, that's suicide
Now with video proof!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFqeh7avbmI
DR seems to be less and less desirable already.
Most DPS setups already has about 30% ArP in. With mod6 changes, this figure will soar towards 40-50%.
AH prices has also shown this trend more or less. Radiants are most expensive now, with the rest dropping in price or not receiving a good market. Stats are difficult to stack in mod6 and novelty enchantments with mixed stats like crit/deflect have their prices pretty much sliced after preview was up.
Dark enchantments more or less maintained but many are aware you don't need to stack it hardcore to reach respectable levels.
We can say or hope these are speculations since mod6 hasn't gone 'live'. But I believe this scenario will not deviate too much unless Cryptic decides to contemplate a major change again.
Back on Negation and DR. One probably can maintain about 5-6 stacks at optimum point like someone already pointed out. That gives 15-18% DR (which isn't really alot). In PvP, ArP just cuts right through with the ArP boosted as stated above.
A GWF in usntop can stack 10 negations on you in a 2 seconds with sure strike. On LIVE, dodging classes have a very easy time avoiding the fighter enconters. GWFs dont have gap-closing encounters, so they tend to run to the wizard and spam at-wills. If you dont know that you dont pvp, if you dont pvp please do not comment on it. Also many folks run PF, even more folks have only 1 weapon enchant and cant afford to switch perfects for each fight. Even half stacks of Negation would be +15% DR which is pretty much what the new Sentinel 5 point feat gives.
Classes with weaker armor and lower DR who already have high (ranged) dps/cc/dodge and/or deflect will be the ones to benefit the most from preview Negation because it will make up for the one thing they lack.
And last but not least, Panderus mains a CW
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Hahahaha. This pizza compagny doesn't use anchovies because the boss' little cousin doesn't like it.
Dude, it's time for you to take a rest.
How many of the design decisions are based on their own experience from internal testing and actual playing hm? Seeing as how they tend to ignore player generated feedback, Id say they base most of it on their own perspectives. Combine this with the fact that devs and mods seem to simply be bad at this game ( Akromatic's infamous PVP failures ) and you can get a good idea of why so many things are out of line or flat out imbalanced.
Im not saying they favour the CW class because person A mains one. I am saying any class can get a boost or nerf based on a misconception on the devs part originating from their lack of ability to play their own game.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
omfg I laughed so hard. words cannot be more true xD
Post dissecting and taking sentences out of context is an online practice I abhor so I will not be drawn into it. I've said what I had to say and for the record if your dodger doesnt dodge intimidation then any more talking is pointless.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
lulz, GWFs both intimidation and Non-Intimidation spam sure strike, Intimidation spam it to get 5 stacks of weapon master to get more deflect and crit, non-intimidation (obviously destroyer since nobody plays instigator) spam it to get stacks of destroyer's purpose.
u wot m8?
There is not a single thread that falls under these topics that isn't quickly consumed by the same people bickering about PvP.
This........
+1
the purpose by the same people who think the game is eminently PVP and that this supposed game was made just for them only because they feel this right because they are avid consumers! living democracy and care for here one can not say everything except the white knights delete such your post...hilarious...because i love watch the theory of micro-power in action...rofl
come on quit *****ing
protector enclave is full of "really perfect terror is going to be bis? wtf i have a vorpal someone wants to trade" ??
perfect vorpal + soulforged will still be bis in pve no matter how much they buff weapon damage.
so while creating and answering to this thread people will always keep a pvp point of view.
come on read the enchants, those have all pvp effects.
40% debuff to power? dr on damage taken with high stacks loss/second? debuff to recovery? you may not like pvp but these enchants have primary affect that.