Did WoW BiS gear require tens of millions of AD equivalents to acquire worth $200+ only to become obsolete in fewer than 6 months? I never played WoW and am genuinely curious. I didn't think it was an expensive game.
I'll wait and see what happens to artifact gear, but IMO something already designed to level up should also level up with the wielder. Super-Mulhorands....
No because in wow you couldn't buy gear. You had to play the game. That's why this boe stuff is complete wrong as well. If it's epic anything including enchants, it needs to be bound every time.
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onecoolscatcatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 575Arc User
edited January 2015
So WoW doesn't have an auction house, trades, or any other method of selling/bartering items for in-game currency? Diablo 2 had a thriving trade system.
So WoW doesn't have an auction house, trades, or any other method of selling/bartering items for in-game currency? Diablo 2 had a thriving trade system.
It does, but it's crafting mats that sell, which are used to make enchants that once slotted become bound and can never be transfered, etc. You can also buy and sell twink gear for example. Or crafting recipes. But an epic gear piece that is not btcoa is extremely extremely rare, and never BiS.
edit*
Bear in mind my knowledge is 3 wow expansions old so about 6 years out of date.
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onecoolscatcatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 575Arc User
edited January 2015
To get back on point, Artifact gear should have been released simultaneously with the level cap raise, but that's hindsight. I think making artifact gear level with your character is an acceptable solution.
Per patch notes, Mulhorand items stop leveling after character level 60. Suggestion: let existing artifact gear level with a character up to character level 70.
Level 70 artifact gear will level up to the next level cap raise, etc.
This allows planned obsolescence while still keeping expensive gear useful for a reasonable period of time.
Ideally Devs will allow refining artifact gear better returns than the current pitiful 40%, so it becomes worthwhile.
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onecoolscatcatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 575Arc User
It does, but it's crafting mats that sell, which are used to make enchants that once slotted become bound and can never be transfered, etc. You can also buy and sell twink gear for example. Or crafting recipes. But an epic gear piece that is not btcoa is extremely extremely rare, and never BiS.
edit*
Bear in mind my knowledge is 3 wow expansions old so about 6 years out of date.
still better than my non-existent exp. I think you're looking at this through a WoW filter. NW is my first MMO so my filters are somewhat different.
still better than my non-existent exp. I think you're looking at this through a WoW filter. NW is my first MMO so my filters are somewhat different.
It's not just wow, what I outlined is the more common method in mmo's. IMO 99% of the problems neverwinter has had with exploits, economy, etc, have all come from where they broke from this system and tried to reinvent the wheel.
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onecoolscatcatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 575Arc User
edited January 2015
It's possible, but that's far outside the scope of this thread.
So WoW doesn't have an auction house, trades, or any other method of selling/bartering items for in-game currency? Diablo 2 had a thriving trade system.
I really miss diablo 2 trading it was always fun trying to get people to come into your trade instance and see what they would put up for trade because it was always a mixed bag of things.
Back on topic
What is wrong with trying new things it is never going to hit the mark most of the time if not all because when trying something new it may not meet expectations. though it may be more than one time till said expectations are met.
i really hope the lazy ppl dont get it their way and artifact trash isnt BiS in mod6, else there was no point in increasing level cap
Define 'lazy people'. I, for one, don't have the time to grind this or any other game 6-8 hours/day. My artifact gear was refined with 90% stones bought off the AH and 10% from dragon hoard drops. The effort I put into making my main a 24K beast is by no means lesser than the effort of someone who grinded every day since beta. Don't presume to know people.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I just hope they found a way to give people refinings like rank 4
The system is not that bad but the numbers are balanced around botters... 4.6kk are not farmable. 4.6kk is a number studied to make you farm, buy from ah AND occasionally thinking to buy something from zen store. Get rid of bots increase drop rates hard and lower the rp needed.
Again the system is not bad... its just studied for conditions we no longer have.
I'll be happy to see regular gear on the same level as legendary artifact eqiupment.
How about seeing the game go offline? Would you like that too ? Personally I have mixed feelings on the matter.. Everyone here needs to realize 'free' doesn't last. Maybe there are people who grinded their way to 20k GS and never bought anything but those people's only contribution to this game staying online is that they provided items on the AH for folks with less time and more money to buy
PS: I mean no offense btw, its just how things work
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
Artifacts will be able to increase in rank to 120. Artifact Equipment will most likely see a possible raise of 20 ranks also, making them go to 80. I have just started on updating artifacts so these new ranks won't be available right now.
graalx3, can you please confirm or decline that Ranking up Artifact gear will follow our current RP curve.
If nothing changes that would essentially lead to these numbers, which imo are totally out of bounds.
Rank 70: 9.04mil RP total required per item
Rank 80: 16.37mil RP total required per item
ppl who think that if they invested in an item it should stay bis forever, like artifact equipment. like somebody who thinks his 5yo car should be as valuable as a new one, because he bough it when it was new
they are stuff from previous content and a mistake of epic proportions that made a ton of ppl leave the game
there are a lot of things that could be done with artifact equipment, but it should NEVER be BiS @ lvl 70
"A lot of people leave/left the game" seems to be the universal threat around here. If the devs thought artifact gear was working against their income, then they wouldn't have extended the system, so stop the bs.
I personally would like to get rid of it as well, but not by losing millions of RP invested after only three months. It's not black or white, there are elegant solutions. Or there would have been elegant solutions, because there is no way they are altering the system now.
hmm, my English might not be the best, but there is a huge difference in what that post is saying and the natural scaling of artifact items! what that post implies is that we;ll need many many more mil rp to keep them and if that happens i seriously think is a mistake...
ppl who think that if they invested in an item it should stay bis forever, like artifact equipment. like somebody who thinks his 5yo car should be as valuable as a new one, because he bough it when it was new
they are stuff from previous content and a mistake of epic proportions that made a ton of ppl leave the game
there are a lot of things that could be done with artifact equipment, but it should NEVER be BiS @ lvl 70
Fair point man and it should apply to all gear but artifact equipment. The very idea of Artifact equipment is long term investment yielding long term benefits for most people or a 1time investment bringing PWE thousands in real life currencies which only a few players can afford anyway. Of course the idea was flawed because bots farmed millions of RP. But the main point still stands, we have this piece of gear, we slowly put RP into it and we have it increase in power just like how our character increases in power. A piece of rare armor from a dungeon can go obsolete with the next dungeon but a piece of Arti gear with months worth of RP farm or AD bought RP put into it simply cannot. There is a fine line here and crossing it will suck for players and devs/publishers alike.
PS: in using your analogy, a 5yo basic model vehicle may be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> today but take a look at that 67 Shelby. Its an old model right, very old in fact but its suped up, upgraded and extremely valuable even today. That Shelby my man is what our legendary artifacts should be in upcoming mods. Sure, by mod 7/8 we should be required to invest more RP into them.. but not so darn soon
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I have one char in full legendaries and still would love to see new items that actually drop and don't need to be refined to become BiS. I want to farm for gear, not for RP. I'm aware about but don't mind the sunk costs of those items. But that's just me. Still, I can see why people would get upset if their tediously acquired Arti gear would become inferior to other items.
PS: in using your analogy, a 5yo basic model vehicle may be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> today but take a look at that 67 Shelby. Its an old model right, very old in fact but its suped up, upgraded and extremely valuable even today. That Shelby my man is what our legendary artifacts should be in upcoming mods. Sure, by mod 7/8 we should be required to invest more RP into them.. but not so darn soon
this would be better compared to some old skin/pet or other vanity item you can get anymore(like fawn value half a year after winter event), that get their value from being rare and impossible to get new, equipment is like a work tool, its value based only on performance, and today even a corolla might own it on the track - top gear https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew5cPCYuA9o
you could buy GTR/911/Corvette for that kind of money
this would be better compared to some old skin/pet or other vanity item you can get anymore(like fawn value half a year after winter event), that get their value from being rare and impossible to get new, equipment is like a work tool, its value based only on performance, and today even a corolla might own it on the track - top gear https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew5cPCYuA9o
you could buy GTR/911/Corvette for that kind of money
Problem is you will always find someone willing to buy a shelby in order for you to buy a gtr which however is expensive too, does not randomly drop.
Tldr cars do not bind on pickup
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
Problem is you will always find someone willing to buy a shelby in order for you to buy a gtr which however is expensive too, does not randomly drop.
Tldr cars do not bind on pickup
If we're getting technical on real world analogies: Vehicles do bind on acquire on many Zones on Earth. But you can pay the Government of said zones to unbind them and let a buyer bind them to themselves! Else... you'd be exploiting!
Fair point man and it should apply to all gear but artifact equipment. The very idea of Artifact equipment is long term investment yielding long term benefits for most people or a 1time investment bringing PWE thousands in real life currencies which only a few players can afford anyway. Of course the idea was flawed because bots farmed millions of RP. But the main point still stands, we have this piece of gear, we slowly put RP into it and we have it increase in power just like how our character increases in power. A piece of rare armor from a dungeon can go obsolete with the next dungeon but a piece of Arti gear with months worth of RP farm or AD bought RP put into it simply cannot. There is a fine line here and crossing it will suck for players and devs/publishers alike.
PS: in using your analogy, a 5yo basic model vehicle may be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> today but take a look at that 67 Shelby. Its an old model right, very old in fact but its suped up, upgraded and extremely valuable even today. That Shelby my man is what our legendary artifacts should be in upcoming mods. Sure, by mod 7/8 we should be required to invest more RP into them.. but not so darn soon
Problem is your artifact equipment isn't a Shelby, it's a yugo and it's dragging the game down.
They are deleting portals as assets from foundries so everyone will sit on the same boat now.
There will be less reasons to complain if the 90 percent. Of in game population is going to be a have not.
I'm honestly surprised people are still using the Foundry to hoard. After the ICD change it seems it's much more effective to grind in open world lairs.
I'm honestly surprised people are still using the Foundry to hoard. After the ICD change it seems it's much more effective to grind in open world lairs.
That s not the point. In open world i often get nothing for more than 5 minutes... even 10 sometimes. It s annoying to be fair
Farming the christmas monsters event instead is the best idea i ever had. They were dropping like candies
If we're getting technical on real world analogies: Vehicles do bind on acquire on many Zones on Earth. But you can pay the Government of said zones to unbind them and let a buyer bind them to themselves! Else... you'd be exploiting!
Well, if it's good enough for the US government, it's good enough for Neverwinter. Time to get the devs to put in a unbinding cost on items.... :P (See what I did there. I'm gonna go over here and stand and be all proud of myself and stuff.)
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
No because in wow you couldn't buy gear. You had to play the game. That's why this boe stuff is complete wrong as well. If it's epic anything including enchants, it needs to be bound every time.
Well, here's the problem with the WoW analogy. Since the best stuff only dropped in raids, you needed to be part of a hardcore raiding group to even have a shot at it. And for the most part, that required you to play every day, raiding nightly (which required 3-6 hours a night in front of the computer) for a shot at an item you wanted. It would take weeks, if not months of hardcore play, raiding the same encounters week after week until the item you wanted randomly dropped from the boss. Then of course you had to hope you won the random roll for that item, or you had "earned" enough "points" (tallied out of game by another person) to "buy" that item (often referred to as DKP - Dragon Kill Points).
And the worst part of it was you could only kill a certain boss ONCE each week. If you needed an item from a particular boss, you only had ONE shot at it dropping ONCE per week. That's it. There was no way to farm an encounter, even if your group could do it easily. If the boss that had the item you wanted was at the end of the raid, then each week you had to spend days re-clearing the entire raid to get back to that boss, again for your ONE shot at an item.
Of course, this all assumes you had a group of 40, 25 or 10 friends/guildies that could reliably put together a raid group to kill bosses in those things. Getting that many people organized was a feat unto itself. And if you didn't, you had to know someone personally who knew someone who could vouch for you being a "great player" so you could just get invited to the raid, so you could prove yourself a competent enough person to even get in a group. The politics behind that was complete and utter BS to begin with.
WoW's system put the very best gear entirely out of reach by the average player. If you were a person who could only play 1 or 2 hours a day, a few days a week, you have approximately 0.00% chance at earning BiS gear. Heck, even if you were a great player, but couldn't devote 4-6 hour stretches 3-4 times week to raiding, you had 0.00% chance at earning BiS.
While Neverwinter's system is extremely grinding, and I personal believe there's MUCH better ways to do the Artifact Equipment system, at least it's open to anyone. Given enough time, be it months or years, you can earn BiS everything. That's why I shudder when I hear the suggestions the the very BiS stuff should be locked behind some terribly difficult encounter that takes an enormous amount of effort to overcome, because it will lock out 99% of the players from even experiencing it.
Earning something like a Legendary Mainhand or Offhand for an average to casual player is simply not possible it WoW.
And it was terrible.
So let's make sure when we're bringing up what WoW (and many other MMOs) does, compare apples to apples.
Comments
No because in wow you couldn't buy gear. You had to play the game. That's why this boe stuff is complete wrong as well. If it's epic anything including enchants, it needs to be bound every time.
It does, but it's crafting mats that sell, which are used to make enchants that once slotted become bound and can never be transfered, etc. You can also buy and sell twink gear for example. Or crafting recipes. But an epic gear piece that is not btcoa is extremely extremely rare, and never BiS.
edit*
Bear in mind my knowledge is 3 wow expansions old so about 6 years out of date.
Per patch notes, Mulhorand items stop leveling after character level 60.
Suggestion: let existing artifact gear level with a character up to character level 70.
Level 70 artifact gear will level up to the next level cap raise, etc.
This allows planned obsolescence while still keeping expensive gear useful for a reasonable period of time.
Ideally Devs will allow refining artifact gear better returns than the current pitiful 40%, so it becomes worthwhile.
still better than my non-existent exp. I think you're looking at this through a WoW filter. NW is my first MMO so my filters are somewhat different.
It's not just wow, what I outlined is the more common method in mmo's. IMO 99% of the problems neverwinter has had with exploits, economy, etc, have all come from where they broke from this system and tried to reinvent the wheel.
I really miss diablo 2 trading it was always fun trying to get people to come into your trade instance and see what they would put up for trade because it was always a mixed bag of things.
Back on topic
What is wrong with trying new things it is never going to hit the mark most of the time if not all because when trying something new it may not meet expectations. though it may be more than one time till said expectations are met.
Define 'lazy people'. I, for one, don't have the time to grind this or any other game 6-8 hours/day. My artifact gear was refined with 90% stones bought off the AH and 10% from dragon hoard drops. The effort I put into making my main a 24K beast is by no means lesser than the effort of someone who grinded every day since beta. Don't presume to know people.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I'll be happy to see regular gear on the same level as legendary artifact eqiupment.
The system is not that bad but the numbers are balanced around botters... 4.6kk are not farmable. 4.6kk is a number studied to make you farm, buy from ah AND occasionally thinking to buy something from zen store. Get rid of bots increase drop rates hard and lower the rp needed.
Again the system is not bad... its just studied for conditions we no longer have.
How about seeing the game go offline? Would you like that too ? Personally I have mixed feelings on the matter.. Everyone here needs to realize 'free' doesn't last. Maybe there are people who grinded their way to 20k GS and never bought anything but those people's only contribution to this game staying online is that they provided items on the AH for folks with less time and more money to buy
PS: I mean no offense btw, its just how things work
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
If nothing changes that would essentially lead to these numbers, which imo are totally out of bounds.
Rank 70: 9.04mil RP total required per item
Rank 80: 16.37mil RP total required per item
(Numbers taken from [URL="from https://www.desmos.com/calculator/5wrbi8iwqn"]here[/URL]. Also, see this post.)
Could you also please provide some information as for means of RP generation in Mod6?
Thanks
holy <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>! 16.37 x 5 = 81M............... come on man.. Y U DO THIS TO US?!
ppl who think that if they invested in an item it should stay bis forever, like artifact equipment. like somebody who thinks his 5yo car should be as valuable as a new one, because he bough it when it was new
they are stuff from previous content and a mistake of epic proportions that made a ton of ppl leave the game
there are a lot of things that could be done with artifact equipment, but it should NEVER be BiS @ lvl 70
I personally would like to get rid of it as well, but not by losing millions of RP invested after only three months. It's not black or white, there are elegant solutions. Or there would have been elegant solutions, because there is no way they are altering the system now.
hmm, my English might not be the best, but there is a huge difference in what that post is saying and the natural scaling of artifact items! what that post implies is that we;ll need many many more mil rp to keep them and if that happens i seriously think is a mistake...
i guess we;ll see soon
Fair point man and it should apply to all gear but artifact equipment. The very idea of Artifact equipment is long term investment yielding long term benefits for most people or a 1time investment bringing PWE thousands in real life currencies which only a few players can afford anyway. Of course the idea was flawed because bots farmed millions of RP. But the main point still stands, we have this piece of gear, we slowly put RP into it and we have it increase in power just like how our character increases in power. A piece of rare armor from a dungeon can go obsolete with the next dungeon but a piece of Arti gear with months worth of RP farm or AD bought RP put into it simply cannot. There is a fine line here and crossing it will suck for players and devs/publishers alike.
PS: in using your analogy, a 5yo basic model vehicle may be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> today but take a look at that 67 Shelby. Its an old model right, very old in fact but its suped up, upgraded and extremely valuable even today. That Shelby my man is what our legendary artifacts should be in upcoming mods. Sure, by mod 7/8 we should be required to invest more RP into them.. but not so darn soon
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
this would be better compared to some old skin/pet or other vanity item you can get anymore(like fawn value half a year after winter event), that get their value from being rare and impossible to get new, equipment is like a work tool, its value based only on performance, and today even a corolla might own it on the track - top gear https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew5cPCYuA9o
you could buy GTR/911/Corvette for that kind of money
Tldr cars do not bind on pickup
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
Problem is your artifact equipment isn't a Shelby, it's a yugo and it's dragging the game down.
There will be less reasons to complain if the 90 percent. Of in game population is going to be a have not.
That s not the point. In open world i often get nothing for more than 5 minutes... even 10 sometimes. It s annoying to be fair
Farming the christmas monsters event instead is the best idea i ever had. They were dropping like candies
Well, if it's good enough for the US government, it's good enough for Neverwinter. Time to get the devs to put in a unbinding cost on items.... :P (See what I did there. I'm gonna go over here and stand and be all proud of myself and stuff.)
Well, here's the problem with the WoW analogy. Since the best stuff only dropped in raids, you needed to be part of a hardcore raiding group to even have a shot at it. And for the most part, that required you to play every day, raiding nightly (which required 3-6 hours a night in front of the computer) for a shot at an item you wanted. It would take weeks, if not months of hardcore play, raiding the same encounters week after week until the item you wanted randomly dropped from the boss. Then of course you had to hope you won the random roll for that item, or you had "earned" enough "points" (tallied out of game by another person) to "buy" that item (often referred to as DKP - Dragon Kill Points).
And the worst part of it was you could only kill a certain boss ONCE each week. If you needed an item from a particular boss, you only had ONE shot at it dropping ONCE per week. That's it. There was no way to farm an encounter, even if your group could do it easily. If the boss that had the item you wanted was at the end of the raid, then each week you had to spend days re-clearing the entire raid to get back to that boss, again for your ONE shot at an item.
Of course, this all assumes you had a group of 40, 25 or 10 friends/guildies that could reliably put together a raid group to kill bosses in those things. Getting that many people organized was a feat unto itself. And if you didn't, you had to know someone personally who knew someone who could vouch for you being a "great player" so you could just get invited to the raid, so you could prove yourself a competent enough person to even get in a group. The politics behind that was complete and utter BS to begin with.
WoW's system put the very best gear entirely out of reach by the average player. If you were a person who could only play 1 or 2 hours a day, a few days a week, you have approximately 0.00% chance at earning BiS gear. Heck, even if you were a great player, but couldn't devote 4-6 hour stretches 3-4 times week to raiding, you had 0.00% chance at earning BiS.
While Neverwinter's system is extremely grinding, and I personal believe there's MUCH better ways to do the Artifact Equipment system, at least it's open to anyone. Given enough time, be it months or years, you can earn BiS everything. That's why I shudder when I hear the suggestions the the very BiS stuff should be locked behind some terribly difficult encounter that takes an enormous amount of effort to overcome, because it will lock out 99% of the players from even experiencing it.
Earning something like a Legendary Mainhand or Offhand for an average to casual player is simply not possible it WoW.
And it was terrible.
So let's make sure when we're bringing up what WoW (and many other MMOs) does, compare apples to apples.