Never talked about gwf sentinel. But a full tank GF yes, can imho tank a lot if he focused on tankyness alone and is good at using his guard. Let's say from what i've seen, a full tank GF can tank a lot. Reflect builds if i remember well are good at that. But immortal idk. It's true that a GF still has his weaknesses. But also more base attack compared to a full tank DC, imho.
Nope. What you describe is mod 4 tank DC, and it sucked. Never said it must tank a whole team. Being a full tank, it's supposed to kill nothing but require more than 1 enemy to take down. Quite simply. Being a semi-tank healer leads to nothing in pvp. You die in seconds and do literally nothing unless your team mates babysit you all the time. What you do not understand is that in pvp enemies go straight at the DC. Being half tanky and healing a lot is useless. You die in seconds and heal nobody.
As is not op, just nab players can't understand that for those 10 seconds They must only cc to prevent the dc from using at-wills, or push the DC out of as and burst.
Key is keeping the DC busy dodging or cced. It is not immortal, just requires good focus. What can require a fix is excessive party heals. But a tank DC going full tank in pvp must be that tanky.
Or try go pvp with your supposed support- control DC and see what you do. My guess: get to mid, focused, killed fast while dealing no damage. A support class that deals no DPS and requires babysitting from team to survive? Nice damage.
Sorry dude but you've no clue about how pvp tank DC works. You descrive module 4 DC, who could be solo'd, heal some and do something only if his team was protecting him all the time at same GS. Nonsense. Sorry, that's not balance.
i disagree, mod 4 tank cleric was really hard to kill even 2vs1 even for combat bugged HR.
yeah tanks should be able to tank but dpser should be able to kill.
no matter if the victim is a tank, he should be able to do it.
not in a 1 shot of course, not i 3 moves, but after 5 minutes 1vs1 one should have the edge ideally for skill level difference. Now assuming the dpser has 19k and the cleric 14k, the dpser is not able to kill him.
i bring my case: 25k trapper HR 8k unpotted power 3k armor pen, 46k hp 2600 deflect, 1900 defence.
i was fighting a 16k tank cleric i was able to kill him after 3 min but i was dying (30% hp left) of its at wills -.-''
tl,dr tank should tank, dpser must kill otherwise it ends up with the common error: offtanks OP. See Dps DC or old GWF for further references
Never talked about gwf sentinel. But a full tank GF yes, can imho tank a lot if he focused on tankyness alone and is good at using his guard. Let's say from what i've seen, a full tank GF can tank a lot. Reflect builds if i remember well are good at that. But immortal idk. It's true that a GF still has his weaknesses. But also more base attack compared to a full tank DC, imho.
Nope. What you describe is mod 4 tank DC, and it sucked. Never said it must tank a whole team. Being a full tank, it's supposed to kill nothing but require more than 1 enemy to take down. Quite simply. Being a semi-tank healer leads to nothing in pvp. You die in seconds and do literally nothing unless your team mates babysit you all the time. What you do not understand is that in pvp enemies go straight at the DC. Being half tanky and healing a lot is useless. You die in seconds and heal nobody.
As is not op, just nab players can't understand that for those 10 seconds They must only cc to prevent the dc from using at-wills, or push the DC out of as and burst.
Key is keeping the DC busy dodging or cced. It is not immortal, just requires good focus. What can require a fix is excessive party heals. But a tank DC going full tank in pvp must be that tanky.
Or try go pvp with your supposed support- control DC and see what you do. My guess: get to mid, focused, killed fast while dealing no damage. A support class that deals no DPS and requires babysitting from team to survive? Nice damage.
Sorry dude but you've no clue about how pvp tank DC works. You descrive module 4 DC, who could be solo'd, heal some and do something only if his team was protecting him all the time at same GS. Nonsense. Sorry, that's not balance.
Are you even reading what you write?
I'm telling you once again, DC is NOT A TANK. It's a **** healer/support class! Him tanking a whole lot better alone than a pure or a secondary tank is what makes no sense at all. GF focused on survivability and with the best defensive rotation is hard to kill 1v1 but still doable. DC is not. Against some classes he can pretty much stick a toothpick in the keyboard on one of his encounter hotkeys, go afk, make coffe, come back and still be alive. Is that what you call balance?
Tell me a single mmo where a healer would be as tanky as our DC and still able to support his team. I dare you. Besides, I'm not asking to roll back DC to mod 4. I'm asking for DC to choose, whether they want to focus on self heals or on party heals. Different encounters should be for different uses. And GoF has to be nerfed one or another way.
For example, I played a mmorpg where the Priest has insane buffs, debuffs, good mobility, good heals, unable to kill anyone but undead and still a squishy. Could be easily taken out in one or two hits. Thus in GvG they always had to keep distance or be protected by a Paladin that took damage in their stead. That's where GF comes in all this. He's the natural protector of DC. Neverwinter needs more teamplay and class synergy like that and less of the 'each for his own' mentality.
For example, I played a mmorpg where the Priest has insane buffs, debuffs, good mobility, good heals, unable to kill anyone but undead and still a squishy. Could be easily taken out in one or two hits. Thus in GvG they always had to keep distance or be protected by a Paladin that took damage in their stead. That's where GF comes in all this. He's the natural protector of DC. Neverwinter needs more teamplay and class synergy like that and less of the 'each for his own' mentality.
Except Neverwinter is not an MMOPRG, it's a single player game with extended multiplayer. The entire game is designed around solo-play, almost every dungeon can be soloed by maxed out characters, guilds are completely irrelevant. I miss those days in old MMORPGs, when dungeons were impossible to complete without a healer and a tank, when DPS classes should've built damage or they sucked, when communication and cooperation were a key to success. Unfortunately, Neverwinter is not about that.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
Except Neverwinter is not an MMOPRG, it's a single player game with extended multiplayer. The entire game is designed around solo-play, almost every dungeon can be soloed by maxed out characters, guilds are completely irrelevant. I miss those days in old MMORPGs, when dungeons were impossible to complete without a healer and a tank, when DPS classes should've built damage or they sucked, when communication and cooperation were a key to success. Unfortunately, Neverwinter is not about that.
Yes, it seems to be heading this way. The implementation of a dps tree for DC and heroic encounters are just a few examples of that. Tho I still hope it's temporary...
DCs now are capable of out DPS even TRs and CW in PvE... omg, what they did in the last module? Those TRs and Clerics broke the game... oh yes and when i miss the old days when GFs and GWF could hit someone on pvp.
Ikr... Back in the past you could count dodges and time attacks which made PvP an interesting mind game, and now DCs and TRs got their dodges doubled and just spam them like it's nothing. This game has become a NoSkillJustSpam game with 'revamps' like these. Revamps have to be done step by step with careful testing in every environment and not just some hurried pile of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> just to meet the deadline.
It's not a full DPS build you use. Not a glass cannon. It's a pvp DPS build, which is usually a balance of DPS and tankyness.
But here again, follow my reasoning:
The DC tank build in pvp is a FULL TANK. Extreme build. 100% focus on tankyness, 0% on DPS. You, as a pvp HR, should not be glass cannon, and your 46k hp tell me this. To say 'i must be able to solo the tank' you should run full DPS build but that's not doable in pvp. That is why i say it's not weird that a build not entirely focused on DPS can't solo a build entirely focused on DPS. At same GS. But your case is a bit different.
Cross-GS balance is not easy to figure out expecially for the above reason. The 19k guy is a tank class in not full DPS build but rather a balance of survivability and DPS.
Let's say the 16k tank DC is focused by a 16k pve DPS spec CW, SW, HR or TR. There imho you should have a fair fight and both being able to kill each others. One extreme build vs another extreme build.
Using that as a base, you would eventually get cross-GS balance.
As i said, imho DPS DC needs a big tone down. Tankyness on the other hand needs balance but not that much. Gof should respect healing depression. Other stuff idk.
But i stick to my idea: a tank DC in pvp should be a hard-to-kill guy that can in the meanwhile, boost a bit his allies survivability, while not making them immortal. Requiring a couple of enemies or a full DPS build to focus him.
Eas mechanic is fine to me, i see many classes being able to counter it with either cc or pushing the DC out of it.
In pvp, with current DPS overkill, a tank using only dr and self heals dies fast. Like sentinel gwfs do. So a 'burst' immunity to damage is fine to me and has counters. Would love eas to have a clear visual indicator so i can see when it is cast. Right now the mark on the ground is feeble and hard to see in battle.
In your specific case, i'd say you kill the 16k tank in 2 minutes and he can't scratch you, considering you are not full DPS but being much higher GS you can kill it solo. A same GS CW would do it faster thanks to cc.
Cc is quite important now to counter empowered mechanic. Classes with less cc are indeed at a disadvantage and only DPS takes longer to kill a tank DC. That is why a CW can do it faster while it takes more time to you.
You may need to change encounters to add some cc to your DPS.
My experience with tank DC so far on both sides (i main a gwf, alt a HR and a tank DC) is not that problematic but i can only roughly say my impressions and own ideas about how it imho should work.
@zvieris, i assume u have a DC and know DC stuff, but here comes my point:
1. If you have a cleric you know how their powers, feats, items and etc stuffs works, but you seem like not understanding how hard a DC to be immortal and what they lose to gain that advantage. Dont argue, read the following first.
2. There is no one who will count DC dodge in previous modules, cuz DC have unlimited dodge for 10 seconds (from a feat called healing step) and ppl dunno when it will trigger. So people usually dont count because it is useless, and pro cleric will never spend all dodge, they will at least save one dodge.
3. There are other way to win the game if you cannot kill that immortal DC:
a) Go to other 2 nodes and kill the rest of their team, leave someone on the node to keep the node contested if possible.
b) Turn the node red using number advantage then start roaming.
c) CC, CC and CC.
d) Kick him out of that circle.
e) You ignore him, ask your team to camp their base and kill all people except him. He cant appear at 3 places at the same time.
4. I believe if you pvp with a DC throughout so many modules you will know one thing: Dead Cleric Dont Heal, so tankiness is prioritised before anything, including healing abilities. DC is a tank!!
5. The first pvp DC guide in 2013 (GCTRL SENT DC guide) already implemented an idea: DC is a played as a tank. This is a both fact and is written in cleric history, you cannot argue with us.
Facts:
a) They are Halfling race for deflect %
b) Having high defensive stats but low offensive stats
c) Max CON/DEX instead of any class attributes
d) They can tank a few person for awhile but dont have any way to drop enemy hp to 90%.
In conclusion, I dont think anyone will disagree pvp cleric is a tank in NW. You are the first one to disagree anyway. If you have any question or problem you may state it out, so we can help you.
@zvieris, i assume u have a DC and know DC stuff, but here comes my point:
1. If you have a cleric you know how their powers, feats, items and etc stuffs works, but you seem like not understanding how hard a DC to be immortal and what they lose to gain that advantage. Dont argue, read the following first.
2. There is no one who will count DC dodge in previous modules, cuz DC have unlimited dodge for 10 seconds (from a feat called healing step) and ppl dunno when it will trigger. So people usually dont count because it is useless, and pro cleric will never spend all dodge, they will at least save one dodge.
3. There are other way to win the game if you cannot kill that immortal DC:
a) Go to other 2 nodes and kill the rest of their team, leave someone on the node to keep the node contested if possible.
b) Turn the node red using number advantage then start roaming.
c) CC, CC and CC.
d) Kick him out of that circle.
e) You ignore him, ask your team to camp their base and kill all people except him. He cant appear at 3 places at the same time.
4. I believe if you pvp with a DC throughout so many modules you will know one thing: Dead Cleric Dont Heal, so tankiness is prioritised before anything, including healing abilities. DC is a tank!!
5. The first pvp DC guide in 2013 (GCTRL SENT DC guide) already implemented an idea: DC is a played as a tank. This is a both fact and is written in cleric history, you cannot argue with us.
Facts:
a) They are Halfling race for deflect %
b) Having high defensive stats but low offensive stats
c) Max CON/DEX instead of any class attributes
d) They can tank a few person for awhile but dont have any way to drop enemy hp to 90%.
In conclusion, I dont think anyone will disagree pvp cleric is a tank in NW. You are the first one to disagree anyway. If you have any question or problem you may state it out, so we can help you.
Elf / Night Elf
A Nub PvP Cleric(s) Player
tank dcs are quite ok the problem is when that is mixed with a temptation SW and/or GF.
you can just say goodbye to that node no matter how many people are there to focus.
the problem is increased in presence of a purple shield CW: that CW is now immortal.
however what i think is needed is a tone down of astral shield and an internal CD of let's say 20 sec to GoF.
then we can start talk about DPS DC.
i can assure you top ranked players are indeed complaining about it.
Balance on tankyness is one thing, but i think we can all agree that zvieris' leader DC who is a healer with some survivability has no place in real pvp. Would get shot down on spot unless his team focuses on babysitting him.
Tank warriors can tank the most and DPS some according to him.
Full tank DC with 0 DPS should tank 'some', but heal like crazy his allies.
Which means in pvp the DC would either heal for few seconds and die, or being babysitted, or try to survive a bit more focusing on self heal and providing nothing else to his team.
@raydan, I already emotionless when i see this....
"GWF too tanky?? Nerf DC!!" (DC cried)
"HR immortal?? Nerf DC!!" (DC cried again)
"DC hard to kill?? Nerf DC !!" (DC cried again and again)
"You died to a DC?? Nerf DC !!" (DC:....)
The worst thing in NW pvp history as a pvp DC is healing depression from various sources. We already lost the Healing ability from AS and the pve community are not quite happy with this... Nerf us again???
@pando, thats why i said his idea is not practical and dont play serious pvp...
You simply need to understand how Gift of Faith works to get around it.
First of all, it takes a long time to build up. Only a fraction of the clerics total heals go into the gift of faith pool. So in order for the cleric to get those big instant "oh my god" type heals, they need to be doing a LOT of healing. If you deprive them of that, either via large burst damage or CC, you will make it harder for them. Secondly, the heal will only proc when a target gets below 30% health. Its possible to get around the sudden heal if you can get the cleric down to about 35% then burst them to zero in a single hit.
Sorry if this issue has been addressed, but the HR in question simply could not have had anything that would do the job in his arsenal. HRs work in little bites. No sudden bursts. Another reason (in addition to TRs) why the class is going extinct, at least in PvP.
Empowered as lasts 10 seconds. DC has no cc immunity and needs to at-will to build divine power and use divine mode encounters to then have eas up. Plenty of time to cc and burst.
A tank build with no offensive power must be able to tank tons of damage while providing SOME support.
That's the logic in a pvp where DPS classes can tank some and dish out tons of DPS.
A tank DC that can be solo'ed easily is nonsense.
Everything else, from healing to DPS can and must be balanced, but keeping in mind that a tank healer must be able to do the above.
Balance on tankyness is one thing, but i think we can all agree that zvieris' leader DC who is a healer with some survivability has no place in real pvp. Would get shot down on spot unless his team focuses on babysitting him.
Tank warriors can tank the most and DPS some according to him.
Full tank DC with 0 DPS should tank 'some', but heal like crazy his allies.
Which means in pvp the DC would either heal for few seconds and die, or being babysitted, or try to survive a bit more focusing on self heal and providing nothing else to his team.
Self explanatory.
Full tank and heal like crazy - why do they take 2 roles at once - healer and tank. Its the same as saying i pick full tank cw - i should deal damage like crazy. This does not make sense. You play full tank - your other aspects should be minimal. that what means going FULL tank.
IN other words if cleric focuses on survivability - his team presence should be reduced.
If he focuses on healing his survilability should be reduced. Noone is talking about him being as squishy as dps but if he has high output he should not be always in game to continue this output.
Oh and someone mentioned that pure dps should kill tank dc - my build is pure dps as i use it in pve mostly(switch from pve set to pvp, switch powers from area to single target.) - guess what 9k vs 16k and 11k gs, 16k pure squishy dps -> dc remained in same state after fight as he was before fight. This means i could go and do that infinitely and nothing would change.
Had you been both trapper HRs or a Trapper and a Combat HR and used you CC;s and prones and burst dmg wise you'dve have owned him. Tbh given the gs difference if you were a Trapper you may well have done it yourself.
I don't see how a Trapper would be in any better shape than an archery build. Only difference is Roots, and that is not going to prevent a DC from healing himself. Boar Charge would prone him, and that might make time enough to finish him off, but an archer build is just as capable, or even more capable of taking advantage of that because he's got Prey, and probably can do better damage to a single target than a Trapper can.
@zvieris, i use red colour because it is from my perspective. I normally feel powerless when opposite team cap and run away from me when they refuse to kill me but others. Anyway you got it right, i am away from NW for a few weeks due to my studies but i will be back soon after my final.
Btw you should know a support cleric is not viable in the meta and just like you said be either be tanky and give little support or give good support but not tanky is not realistic. You should aware every crucial support skills like HG, DA, AS etc will disappear the moment you die. That is the main reason why we go tanky: just to leave our skills on the battle field. The more tanky we are, the longer our skills remain on field, thus resulting in more support. Thats why we DC are focused first in battle if we look squishy. And because of all healing/tank skills are in AoE form, we indirectly affects those near us, working like an aura. So the best way to provide that aura continuously is by surviving. You can either be tanky and giving out decent supports or you be extreme supportive and die after in less than 1 second.
You stated that what if the opposite team has 3 DC and how to face them?? Dont forget, we fought 5 GWF/HR/other FotM premades during previous mods, and now DC is a dozen easier than them, GWF and HR kills you, DC dont. DC relying on DP to cast EAS and i assume you know this as you claimed you have a alt pvp dc. As long as you can force him spam encounters and dodging instead of using at-will, you win the battle. Gift of Faith requires the user to store heal a lot to be useful. Using your theory, this is OP but it is not. If i use a DPSer and i store a quarter of my damage for 3 minutes and burst it out when my target is lower than 45% hp, i think my target will die straight forward. So the main idea behind this is not to let them store heals !! DC cannot survive without all the above conditions and you have to counter him with either cc, number advantage or keep him busy capping other node. This is team strategy game, not everyone will cry abt DC OPness.
Last point, extreme pvp DC vs extreme pvp GF, there are no obvious answer whether who wins the game. Both have their own pro and potential. Gears matter, item combinations matter, styles matter, teammates matter. I wonder how you conclude DC is averagely tankier than GF?? Harder to kill because of heals?
i dont care about their tankiness but damage has to be scaled down!
they got 85% damage bonus by feats, 3 at wills 1 encounter and they have a daily ready, sunburst ignoring CC immunity, astral shield is out of control and god.....fire of the gods !! 100% weapon damage for 15 sec crittable ( still aoe just saying)???? really????? that's a 1500% weapon damage if not critted; carefull attack with glyphs, piercing and plague fire is a joke compared to that.
i m not asking for a full nerf to everything like people use to do with tr but just take a look at rightneous.
In PvE I often see dmg spec DC dealing more dmg than BiS CWC's. It's pretty sad. They do not have to do much to get that dmg either. Looking at them you wouldn't notice that they are dmg tree, they don't do that much.
But yeah, with crazy feats like 1500% w.dmg. Ofc..
This whole DC situation has been majorly overshadowed by the current state of TR. This probably means that TR gets fixed first, and months later DC. And at that time they have surely made something else majorly broken.
You're forgetting that the only PvP mode we have is team PvP (excluding IWD pseudo-OW pvp). You're a pure PUG player and have no idea what teamwork (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teamwork) and class synergy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synergy) is. You should go play some single player game instead of suggesting that DC should remain the only class with two main roles: tank and healer. kthxbye
In pvp every class does 2 things: survive and provide DPS.
Tank GF tanks multiple enemies for longer time and protects with cc and knights valor.
CW can cc and DPS.
TR and HR survive a lot and deal monster damage.
Every class pretty much can deal DPS and survive long enough to do so. Some better than others.
What you describe is a tank DC that either survives or support. Which is nonsense cause it means your DC would do 1 thing only (survive or support) while other classes do two things ( DPS and survive).
If a HR can DPS and survive a bit
If a TR can DPS and survive a bit
If a gwf can DPS and survive a bit (less efficiently then the two above)
If a GF can either DPS and survive or tank and protect a bit
If a CW can DPS and cc/survive a bit with shield
If a SW can DPS and survive a bit with temptation
Why in the world in your head a tank DC should survive or support?
Tank DC should tank and support a bit similar to how a GF can spec to tank and protect a bit.
Considering the idea of a DC that support a lot and survive a bit is not viable since you get heavily focused.
All the p&p BS has no place here cause a videogame is quite different. And please stick it in your head: devs already said this is a mmorpg in d&d lore, not p&p game. Got it? You want p&p rules, you go play something else.
Each class in pvp does 1 thing main (usually DPS) and survive enough to do it or, like a protector GF, tank 1st and protect.
In the same way, a tank-spec DC must be able to tank and provide a bit of support.
That's the aim of tank DC balance.
Your DC that either survive or support is nonsense. You must play your alt DC very rarely in pvp.
In pvp every class does 2 things: survive and provide DPS.
Tank GF tanks multiple enemies for longer time and protects with cc and knights valor.
CW can cc and DPS.
TR and HR survive a lot and deal monster damage.
Every class pretty much can deal DPS and survive long enough to do so. Some better than others.
What you describe is a tank DC that either survives or support. Which is nonsense cause it means your DC would do 1 thing only (survive or support) while other classes do two things ( DPS and survive).
If a HR can DPS and survive a bit
If a TR can DPS and survive a bit
If a gwf can DPS and survive a bit (less efficiently then the two above)
If a GF can either DPS and survive or tank and protect a bit
If a CW can DPS and cc/survive a bit with shield
If a SW can DPS and survive a bit with temptation
Why in the world in your head a tank DC should survive or support?
Tank DC should tank and support a bit similar to how a GF can spec to tank and protect a bit.
Considering the idea of a DC that support a lot and survive a bit is not viable since you get heavily focused.
All the p&p BS has no place here cause a videogame is quite different. And please stick it in your head: devs already said this is a mmorpg in d&d lore, not p&p game. Got it? You want p&p rules, you go play something else.
Each class in pvp does 1 thing main (usually DPS) and survive enough to do it or, like a protector GF, tank 1st and protect.
In the same way, a tank-spec DC must be able to tank and provide a bit of support.
That's the aim of tank DC balance.
Your DC that either survive or support is nonsense. You must play your alt DC very rarely in pvp.
to protect the party a tank GF sacrifices its own HP tho
What should fix the whole thing is fixing sunburst (thats a lot of extra survivability) and GoF should need visibility to work.
it makes no sense that he can heal to full someone 2 nodes away from you as much as it made no sense when knight valor worked like that
gof procs without requiring visibility of the ally.. that is the main thing that i would nerf.
like knight valor
That's a valid point. I don't mind how balance is done.
Just wanted to point out that a DC tank should be able to tank and provide a bit of support in pvp. In pve DC can go full heal and only a bit survivable if protected. In pvp it must be possibile to do the opposite or a DC would do nothing.
Also all the stuff about teamplay with lol wikipedia links where no other class requires his team to babysit him all the time is funny. So DC should require teamplay to do something, but all the other classes can both DPS and survive (aka fight) without the need of team mates being there to protect them all the time.
to protect the party a tank GF sacrifices its own HP tho
What should fix the whole thing is fixing sunburst (thats a lot of extra survivability) and GoF should need visibility to work.
it makes no sense that he can heal to full someone 2 nodes away from you as much as it made no sense when knight valor worked like that
I agree with that. I didn't say a tank DC must be immortal i said it must tank multiple enemies while supporting allies A BIT. That's the priority in pvp. When i say tank i never said they must stay at 100% hp while doing so. Tank means die slowly. The enemy then must organize and either heavily focus the DC or focus each enemy to out-DPS the DC support, ignoring the DC who is not dealing DPS.
What zvieris proposed is a DC that either survives or support, with different power. So a tank DC would survive and...do nothing else. Jump on a node and survive. Thank you, you can go perma TR to do that better.
Or the DC would heal team mates but die few seconds after jumping on the node unless his team focuses on protecting him.
In the meanwhile, the other classes can both DPS and survive a bit. They don't need to choose to either DPS or survive. But the DC yes, must choose. According to the d&d expert.
What has to be fixed MUST be fixed but zvieris idea would make DC useless in pvp. PvP requires tankiness. A dead fighter deals 0 DPS. The same way, a dead DC heals nobody.
In pvp dcs must be able to spec for tank 1st and support/ healing a bit (2nd role). Cause pvp works that way.
In pve can go full heal and as squishy as a warlock or whatever, but in pvp that is not viable.
On a side note: every class can change his rotation to increase cc when focusing a tank DC.
TR can daze heavily
HR can prone and use grasping roots
Gwf can double stun with fls-TD
GF can stun- prone-send flying
CW can naturally cc
DC can use chains and divine break the spirito to - stun-
SW might be the only one unable to cc enough, idk.
Just to say killing a tank DC 2v1 is not that hard at same GS. When eas runs out cc chain. DC can't use powers, can't stack empowered stacks and cast eas.
Changes to gof and DPS i agree are in need. And nothing else for now.
On a side note: every class can change his rotation to increase cc when focusing a tank DC.
TR can daze heavily
HR can prone and use grasping roots
Gwf can double stun with fls-TD
GF can stun- prone-send flying
CW can naturally cc
DC can use chains and divine break the spirito to - stun-
SW might be the only one unable to cc enough, idk.
Just to say killing a tank DC 2v1 is not that hard at same GS. When eas runs out cc chain. DC can't use powers, can't stack empowered stacks and cast eas.
Changes to gof and DPS i agree are in need. And nothing else for now.
Tank DC always do great support by buffing/debuffing, but gives out poor healing because of low power and crit. As long as the DC is alive, the team will get full benefits from a pvp DC just like from a BIS pve DC. Both type of DC can support the team to the same high level. The only difference is pvp DC takes both good survivability and good support while pve DC sacrifice survivability to deal high damage and give out high burst heals with vorpal. Since in pvp you cant support if you are dead, we build for survivability so our core skills can on the battle field. The problem of spike healing which people complained is due to the amount of healing stored for a few minutes. Even the pvp DC heal only about one-third of pve DC's healing amount, after a few minutes to store the heals, the total amount of heal stored can still overheal the user to 100%. So the only way to counter is to kill them asap and dont let they store heals or keep them busy from generating divinity to use EAS. I hope these info helps.
Comments
yeah tanks should be able to tank but dpser should be able to kill.
no matter if the victim is a tank, he should be able to do it.
not in a 1 shot of course, not i 3 moves, but after 5 minutes 1vs1 one should have the edge ideally for skill level difference. Now assuming the dpser has 19k and the cleric 14k, the dpser is not able to kill him.
i bring my case: 25k trapper HR 8k unpotted power 3k armor pen, 46k hp 2600 deflect, 1900 defence.
i was fighting a 16k tank cleric i was able to kill him after 3 min but i was dying (30% hp left) of its at wills -.-''
tl,dr tank should tank, dpser must kill otherwise it ends up with the common error: offtanks OP. See Dps DC or old GWF for further references
Are you even reading what you write?
I'm telling you once again, DC is NOT A TANK. It's a **** healer/support class! Him tanking a whole lot better alone than a pure or a secondary tank is what makes no sense at all. GF focused on survivability and with the best defensive rotation is hard to kill 1v1 but still doable. DC is not. Against some classes he can pretty much stick a toothpick in the keyboard on one of his encounter hotkeys, go afk, make coffe, come back and still be alive. Is that what you call balance?
Tell me a single mmo where a healer would be as tanky as our DC and still able to support his team. I dare you. Besides, I'm not asking to roll back DC to mod 4. I'm asking for DC to choose, whether they want to focus on self heals or on party heals. Different encounters should be for different uses. And GoF has to be nerfed one or another way.
For example, I played a mmorpg where the Priest has insane buffs, debuffs, good mobility, good heals, unable to kill anyone but undead and still a squishy. Could be easily taken out in one or two hits. Thus in GvG they always had to keep distance or be protected by a Paladin that took damage in their stead. That's where GF comes in all this. He's the natural protector of DC. Neverwinter needs more teamplay and class synergy like that and less of the 'each for his own' mentality.
Except Neverwinter is not an MMOPRG, it's a single player game with extended multiplayer. The entire game is designed around solo-play, almost every dungeon can be soloed by maxed out characters, guilds are completely irrelevant. I miss those days in old MMORPGs, when dungeons were impossible to complete without a healer and a tank, when DPS classes should've built damage or they sucked, when communication and cooperation were a key to success. Unfortunately, Neverwinter is not about that.
Yes, it seems to be heading this way. The implementation of a dps tree for DC and heroic encounters are just a few examples of that. Tho I still hope it's temporary...
Ikr... Back in the past you could count dodges and time attacks which made PvP an interesting mind game, and now DCs and TRs got their dodges doubled and just spam them like it's nothing. This game has become a NoSkillJustSpam game with 'revamps' like these. Revamps have to be done step by step with careful testing in every environment and not just some hurried pile of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> just to meet the deadline.
It's not a full DPS build you use. Not a glass cannon. It's a pvp DPS build, which is usually a balance of DPS and tankyness.
But here again, follow my reasoning:
The DC tank build in pvp is a FULL TANK. Extreme build. 100% focus on tankyness, 0% on DPS. You, as a pvp HR, should not be glass cannon, and your 46k hp tell me this. To say 'i must be able to solo the tank' you should run full DPS build but that's not doable in pvp. That is why i say it's not weird that a build not entirely focused on DPS can't solo a build entirely focused on DPS. At same GS. But your case is a bit different.
Cross-GS balance is not easy to figure out expecially for the above reason. The 19k guy is a tank class in not full DPS build but rather a balance of survivability and DPS.
Let's say the 16k tank DC is focused by a 16k pve DPS spec CW, SW, HR or TR. There imho you should have a fair fight and both being able to kill each others. One extreme build vs another extreme build.
Using that as a base, you would eventually get cross-GS balance.
As i said, imho DPS DC needs a big tone down. Tankyness on the other hand needs balance but not that much. Gof should respect healing depression. Other stuff idk.
But i stick to my idea: a tank DC in pvp should be a hard-to-kill guy that can in the meanwhile, boost a bit his allies survivability, while not making them immortal. Requiring a couple of enemies or a full DPS build to focus him.
Eas mechanic is fine to me, i see many classes being able to counter it with either cc or pushing the DC out of it.
In pvp, with current DPS overkill, a tank using only dr and self heals dies fast. Like sentinel gwfs do. So a 'burst' immunity to damage is fine to me and has counters. Would love eas to have a clear visual indicator so i can see when it is cast. Right now the mark on the ground is feeble and hard to see in battle.
In your specific case, i'd say you kill the 16k tank in 2 minutes and he can't scratch you, considering you are not full DPS but being much higher GS you can kill it solo. A same GS CW would do it faster thanks to cc.
Cc is quite important now to counter empowered mechanic. Classes with less cc are indeed at a disadvantage and only DPS takes longer to kill a tank DC. That is why a CW can do it faster while it takes more time to you.
You may need to change encounters to add some cc to your DPS.
My experience with tank DC so far on both sides (i main a gwf, alt a HR and a tank DC) is not that problematic but i can only roughly say my impressions and own ideas about how it imho should work.
1. If you have a cleric you know how their powers, feats, items and etc stuffs works, but you seem like not understanding how hard a DC to be immortal and what they lose to gain that advantage. Dont argue, read the following first.
2. There is no one who will count DC dodge in previous modules, cuz DC have unlimited dodge for 10 seconds (from a feat called healing step) and ppl dunno when it will trigger. So people usually dont count because it is useless, and pro cleric will never spend all dodge, they will at least save one dodge.
3. There are other way to win the game if you cannot kill that immortal DC:
a) Go to other 2 nodes and kill the rest of their team, leave someone on the node to keep the node contested if possible.
b) Turn the node red using number advantage then start roaming.
c) CC, CC and CC.
d) Kick him out of that circle.
e) You ignore him, ask your team to camp their base and kill all people except him. He cant appear at 3 places at the same time.
4. I believe if you pvp with a DC throughout so many modules you will know one thing: Dead Cleric Dont Heal, so tankiness is prioritised before anything, including healing abilities. DC is a tank!!
5. The first pvp DC guide in 2013 (GCTRL SENT DC guide) already implemented an idea: DC is a played as a tank. This is a both fact and is written in cleric history, you cannot argue with us.
Facts:
a) They are Halfling race for deflect %
b) Having high defensive stats but low offensive stats
c) Max CON/DEX instead of any class attributes
d) They can tank a few person for awhile but dont have any way to drop enemy hp to 90%.
In conclusion, I dont think anyone will disagree pvp cleric is a tank in NW. You are the first one to disagree anyway. If you have any question or problem you may state it out, so we can help you.
Elf / Night Elf
A Nub PvP Cleric(s) Player
tank dcs are quite ok the problem is when that is mixed with a temptation SW and/or GF.
you can just say goodbye to that node no matter how many people are there to focus.
the problem is increased in presence of a purple shield CW: that CW is now immortal.
however what i think is needed is a tone down of astral shield and an internal CD of let's say 20 sec to GoF.
then we can start talk about DPS DC.
i can assure you top ranked players are indeed complaining about it.
Tank warriors can tank the most and DPS some according to him.
Full tank DC with 0 DPS should tank 'some', but heal like crazy his allies.
Which means in pvp the DC would either heal for few seconds and die, or being babysitted, or try to survive a bit more focusing on self heal and providing nothing else to his team.
Self explanatory.
"GWF too tanky?? Nerf DC!!" (DC cried)
"HR immortal?? Nerf DC!!" (DC cried again)
"DC hard to kill?? Nerf DC !!" (DC cried again and again)
"You died to a DC?? Nerf DC !!" (DC:....)
The worst thing in NW pvp history as a pvp DC is healing depression from various sources. We already lost the Healing ability from AS and the pve community are not quite happy with this... Nerf us again???
@pando, thats why i said his idea is not practical and dont play serious pvp...
A tank build with no offensive power must be able to tank tons of damage while providing SOME support.
That's the logic in a pvp where DPS classes can tank some and dish out tons of DPS.
A tank DC that can be solo'ed easily is nonsense.
Everything else, from healing to DPS can and must be balanced, but keeping in mind that a tank healer must be able to do the above.
Full tank and heal like crazy - why do they take 2 roles at once - healer and tank. Its the same as saying i pick full tank cw - i should deal damage like crazy. This does not make sense. You play full tank - your other aspects should be minimal. that what means going FULL tank.
IN other words if cleric focuses on survivability - his team presence should be reduced.
If he focuses on healing his survilability should be reduced. Noone is talking about him being as squishy as dps but if he has high output he should not be always in game to continue this output.
Oh and someone mentioned that pure dps should kill tank dc - my build is pure dps as i use it in pve mostly(switch from pve set to pvp, switch powers from area to single target.) - guess what 9k vs 16k and 11k gs, 16k pure squishy dps -> dc remained in same state after fight as he was before fight. This means i could go and do that infinitely and nothing would change.
Btw you should know a support cleric is not viable in the meta and just like you said be either be tanky and give little support or give good support but not tanky is not realistic. You should aware every crucial support skills like HG, DA, AS etc will disappear the moment you die. That is the main reason why we go tanky: just to leave our skills on the battle field. The more tanky we are, the longer our skills remain on field, thus resulting in more support. Thats why we DC are focused first in battle if we look squishy. And because of all healing/tank skills are in AoE form, we indirectly affects those near us, working like an aura. So the best way to provide that aura continuously is by surviving. You can either be tanky and giving out decent supports or you be extreme supportive and die after in less than 1 second.
You stated that what if the opposite team has 3 DC and how to face them?? Dont forget, we fought 5 GWF/HR/other FotM premades during previous mods, and now DC is a dozen easier than them, GWF and HR kills you, DC dont. DC relying on DP to cast EAS and i assume you know this as you claimed you have a alt pvp dc. As long as you can force him spam encounters and dodging instead of using at-will, you win the battle. Gift of Faith requires the user to store heal a lot to be useful. Using your theory, this is OP but it is not. If i use a DPSer and i store a quarter of my damage for 3 minutes and burst it out when my target is lower than 45% hp, i think my target will die straight forward. So the main idea behind this is not to let them store heals !! DC cannot survive without all the above conditions and you have to counter him with either cc, number advantage or keep him busy capping other node. This is team strategy game, not everyone will cry abt DC OPness.
Last point, extreme pvp DC vs extreme pvp GF, there are no obvious answer whether who wins the game. Both have their own pro and potential. Gears matter, item combinations matter, styles matter, teammates matter. I wonder how you conclude DC is averagely tankier than GF?? Harder to kill because of heals?
like knight valor
In PvE I often see dmg spec DC dealing more dmg than BiS CWC's. It's pretty sad. They do not have to do much to get that dmg either. Looking at them you wouldn't notice that they are dmg tree, they don't do that much.
But yeah, with crazy feats like 1500% w.dmg. Ofc..
This whole DC situation has been majorly overshadowed by the current state of TR. This probably means that TR gets fixed first, and months later DC. And at that time they have surely made something else majorly broken.
Point being, there is no hope.
In pvp every class does 2 things: survive and provide DPS.
Tank GF tanks multiple enemies for longer time and protects with cc and knights valor.
CW can cc and DPS.
TR and HR survive a lot and deal monster damage.
Every class pretty much can deal DPS and survive long enough to do so. Some better than others.
What you describe is a tank DC that either survives or support. Which is nonsense cause it means your DC would do 1 thing only (survive or support) while other classes do two things ( DPS and survive).
If a HR can DPS and survive a bit
If a TR can DPS and survive a bit
If a gwf can DPS and survive a bit (less efficiently then the two above)
If a GF can either DPS and survive or tank and protect a bit
If a CW can DPS and cc/survive a bit with shield
If a SW can DPS and survive a bit with temptation
Why in the world in your head a tank DC should survive or support?
Tank DC should tank and support a bit similar to how a GF can spec to tank and protect a bit.
Considering the idea of a DC that support a lot and survive a bit is not viable since you get heavily focused.
All the p&p BS has no place here cause a videogame is quite different. And please stick it in your head: devs already said this is a mmorpg in d&d lore, not p&p game. Got it? You want p&p rules, you go play something else.
Each class in pvp does 1 thing main (usually DPS) and survive enough to do it or, like a protector GF, tank 1st and protect.
In the same way, a tank-spec DC must be able to tank and provide a bit of support.
That's the aim of tank DC balance.
Your DC that either survive or support is nonsense. You must play your alt DC very rarely in pvp.
to protect the party a tank GF sacrifices its own HP tho
What should fix the whole thing is fixing sunburst (thats a lot of extra survivability) and GoF should need visibility to work.
it makes no sense that he can heal to full someone 2 nodes away from you as much as it made no sense when knight valor worked like that
That's a valid point. I don't mind how balance is done.
Just wanted to point out that a DC tank should be able to tank and provide a bit of support in pvp. In pve DC can go full heal and only a bit survivable if protected. In pvp it must be possibile to do the opposite or a DC would do nothing.
Also all the stuff about teamplay with lol wikipedia links where no other class requires his team to babysit him all the time is funny. So DC should require teamplay to do something, but all the other classes can both DPS and survive (aka fight) without the need of team mates being there to protect them all the time.
I agree with that. I didn't say a tank DC must be immortal i said it must tank multiple enemies while supporting allies A BIT. That's the priority in pvp. When i say tank i never said they must stay at 100% hp while doing so. Tank means die slowly. The enemy then must organize and either heavily focus the DC or focus each enemy to out-DPS the DC support, ignoring the DC who is not dealing DPS.
What zvieris proposed is a DC that either survives or support, with different power. So a tank DC would survive and...do nothing else. Jump on a node and survive. Thank you, you can go perma TR to do that better.
Or the DC would heal team mates but die few seconds after jumping on the node unless his team focuses on protecting him.
In the meanwhile, the other classes can both DPS and survive a bit. They don't need to choose to either DPS or survive. But the DC yes, must choose. According to the d&d expert.
What has to be fixed MUST be fixed but zvieris idea would make DC useless in pvp. PvP requires tankiness. A dead fighter deals 0 DPS. The same way, a dead DC heals nobody.
In pvp dcs must be able to spec for tank 1st and support/ healing a bit (2nd role). Cause pvp works that way.
In pve can go full heal and as squishy as a warlock or whatever, but in pvp that is not viable.
TR can daze heavily
HR can prone and use grasping roots
Gwf can double stun with fls-TD
GF can stun- prone-send flying
CW can naturally cc
DC can use chains and divine break the spirito to - stun-
SW might be the only one unable to cc enough, idk.
Just to say killing a tank DC 2v1 is not that hard at same GS. When eas runs out cc chain. DC can't use powers, can't stack empowered stacks and cast eas.
Changes to gof and DPS i agree are in need. And nothing else for now.
well sunburst ignoring CC immunity
@raydan, that is a bug and will be fixed soon.
Yeah that too. Forgot to mention it.