There aren't many DCs in the first pages of the so reliable Leaderboard, so... what's the problem again?
There aren't that many of any class in the leaderboard besides TRs. Doesn't make DC any less OP. It's just that TR is still much better and requires no skill apart from counting up till 2. If TR gets rightfully nerfed we'll see a huge increase of DCs. It has always been this way. Noobs always will choose the most broken class.
Unless there is a HUGE gs difference, you should not think about 1v1 scenarios.
It's a full tank healer.
You are not supposed to take it down alone. Or it would be a useless build as it was in module 4.
I have a problem with this.
Just fought a DC. 2x War Prophet, 2x Profound Sentinel, Thayan mainhand, blue pants (no socket), purple shirt (no socket), Thayan belt, a blue ring. 21k HP, no enchantment was greater than a rank 5 and he only had one radiant slotted (480 HP). His armour had a rank 5 cruel enchant. 2x blue artifacts. Normal Holy Avenger. Lesser Soulforged. If we are honest, this is a low-geared PVP character.
Me. 19k Conqueror GF. Greater Plague Fire. 22.6% Arpen, further 11% resistance ignored from CON. 4k power. + Tab Mark. 10% damage bonus to controlled targets (Crushing Pin feat).
If he had his Soulforged up, said DC was able to repeatedly survive my entire rotation with my 5 stacks of Reckless Attacker up;
- Bull Charge to clear him from his Shield
- 3x Griffon's Wrath (that is a chain stun following a prone)
- Anvil of Doom
Remember, every hit after the opening charge was 10% harder due to Crushing Pin.
I needed to throw Indomitable Strike in there before landing Anvil to guarantee a Soulforged proc and even then he could heal back up because I had nothing left, having expended my entire rotation.
Turn the tables: A 19k offensive DC would make mince-meat out of a 12k Protector GF.
This is not right. I take no issue with a DC from 15/16k up being able to laugh at that, but a guy with 12k GS and 21 HP being able to eat all of that is not right.
Right now DCs and TRs are out of synch. We've got 12k TRs bursting guys 6k GS above them and we've got heal-tanks surving control bursts from players that vastly out-gear them.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
Just fought a DC. 2x War Prophet, 2x Profound Sentinel, Thayan mainhand, blue pants (no socket), purple shirt (no socket), Thayan belt, a blue ring. 21k HP, no enchantment was greater than a rank 5 and he only had one radiant slotted (480 HP). His armour had a rank 5 cruel enchant. 2x blue artifacts. Normal Holy Avenger. Lesser Soulforged. If we are honest, this is a low-geared PVP character.
Me. 19k Conqueror GF. Greater Plague Fire. 22.6% Arpen, further 11% resistance ignored from CON. 4k power. + Tab Mark. 10% damage bonus to controlled targets (Crushing Pin feat).
If he had his Soulforged up, said DC was able to repeatedly survive my entire rotation with my 5 stacks of Reckless Attacker up;
- Bull Charge to clear him from his Shield
- 3x Griffon's Wrath (that is a chain stun following a prone)
- Anvil of Doom
Remember, every hit after the opening charge was 10% harder due to Crushing Pin.
I needed to throw Indomitable Strike in there before landing Anvil to guarantee a Soulforged proc and even then he could heal back up because I had nothing left, having expended my entire rotation.
Turn the tables: A 19k offensive DC would make mince-meat out of a 12k Protector GF.
This is not right. I take no issue with a DC from 15/16k up being able to laugh at that, but a guy with 12k GS and 21 HP being able to eat all of that is not right.
Right now DCs and TRs are out of synch. We've got 12k TRs bursting guys 6k GS above them and we've got heal-tanks surving control bursts from players that vastly out-gear them.
So according to you cc doesn't help either. Well that leaves us with 2 options.
a)lower enemys hp down to 40% - burst it in one go.
b)get tr to burst him from full hp in one go.
We have a problem here then - only burst classes becomes viable.
So according to you cc doesn't help either. Well that leaves us with 2 options.
a)lower enemys hp down to 46% - burst it in one go.
b)get tr to burst him from full hp in one go.
We have a problem here then - only burst classes becomes viable.
Fixed 'a)' for you. Gift of faith activates at 45%. And probably only CWs and TRs can burst down so much in one hit, other classes can't do so much damage in one hit. Fix TR and DC will emerge as the new FotM class.
So according to you cc doesn't help either. Well that leaves us with 2 options.
a)lower enemys hp down to 40% - burst it in one go.
b)get tr to burst him from full hp in one go.
We have a problem here then - only burst classes becomes viable.
CC can work, but in my experience (as a GF) it will take everything you have and some more, coupled with a considerable gear advantage to get the DC out of the way.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
CC can work, but in my experience (as a GF) it will take everything you have and some more, coupled with a considerable gear advantage to get the DC out of the way.
So its fine as long as you can have gear advantage in late game pvp where gears are maxed this would make it impossible no ?
Just fought a DC. 2x War Prophet, 2x Profound Sentinel, Thayan mainhand, blue pants (no socket), purple shirt (no socket), Thayan belt, a blue ring. 21k HP, no enchantment was greater than a rank 5 and he only had one radiant slotted (480 HP). His armour had a rank 5 cruel enchant. 2x blue artifacts. Normal Holy Avenger. Lesser Soulforged. If we are honest, this is a low-geared PVP character.
Me. 19k Conqueror GF. Greater Plague Fire. 22.6% Arpen, further 11% resistance ignored from CON. 4k power. + Tab Mark. 10% damage bonus to controlled targets (Crushing Pin feat).
If he had his Soulforged up, said DC was able to repeatedly survive my entire rotation with my 5 stacks of Reckless Attacker up;
- Bull Charge to clear him from his Shield
- 3x Griffon's Wrath (that is a chain stun following a prone)
- Anvil of Doom
Remember, every hit after the opening charge was 10% harder due to Crushing Pin.
I needed to throw Indomitable Strike in there before landing Anvil to guarantee a Soulforged proc and even then he could heal back up because I had nothing left, having expended my entire rotation.
Turn the tables: A 19k offensive DC would make mince-meat out of a 12k Protector GF.
This is not right. I take no issue with a DC from 15/16k up being able to laugh at that, but a guy with 12k GS and 21 HP being able to eat all of that is not right.
Right now DCs and TRs are out of synch. We've got 12k TRs bursting guys 6k GS above them and we've got heal-tanks surving control bursts from players that vastly out-gear them.
you don't complain about a bug
you scream for nerf cause you play other class
1)did this healer DC threaten to kill you at any time?
2) if it was DPS DC, was it still "impossible" to kill?
3) comparing 19K DPS DC to other classes AT THE SAME GS, how far OP DC is?
cause I get hang in the air and ice knife of 50K drop on me
stab in the back for 40K and it wasn't even daily
GWF mange to do 20K damage to me with simple at will
me on the other hand take 2 sec to cast 5K damage at will.
DC have many powers and party buffs that are not related to GS, it was always like this
at high levels DC is even weak, and as ppl said before, check the leader board
instead of complaining about sun burst bug, you continue to ask for nerf with no good rason
you don't complain about a bug
you scream for nerf cause you play other class
1)did this healer DC threaten to kill you at any time?
2) if it was DPS DC, was it still "impossible" to kill?
3) comparing 19K DPS DC to other classes AT THE SAME GS, how far OP DC is?
cause I get hang in the air and ice knife of 50K drop on me
stab in the back for 40K and it wasn't even daily
GWF mange to do 20K damage to me with simple at will
me on the other hand take 2 sec to cast 5K damage at will.
DC have many powers and party buffs that are not related to GS, it was always like this
at high levels DC is even weak, and as ppl said before, check the leader board
instead of complaining about sun burst bug, you continue to ask for nerf with no good rason
We have mentioned that only burst classes can currently kill dcs of this build so your comment on trs and cw doesn't help with the topic.
The topic is how to fight them if you don't have the burst and so far we got nothing substantial.
Counter arguments to yours
1)The game balance should not allow unresolvable fights - as someone mentioned in a different post, every fight should have resources that you spend and when you are out the fight is over. In this case the resources are generated faster than they can be spent. Which leaves us with bad game play. Every class should have a window of opportunity to be killed.
2)Clerics are not supposed to be superior in dps over purely dps classes. Why:
a) Clerics have both healing and dps powers - if their dps is superior than pure dps classes, then the additional healing would put them in even superior advantage.
b) Clerics strength comes from their impact on the team as all of their powers are designed for that - if they are stronger then others in 1v1 versus single target oriented chars, than the difference will only grow in team fights - and as we have seen from experience currently Cleric has this superiority even with the disadvantage from gear.
3)These amounts of damages comes from powers that are currently broken - if you read the other threads you would see that people are constantly complaining about them too.
Further more the topic is about unkillable not dps clerics. If they cant be killed with clear gear advantage, how do we kill them without one.
With exception of GWF - i personally have never seen something like that they usually grow in their survivability as the gs improves, not in damage. Maybe that was top gs player with strange build? Anyway gwf are currently one of the weakest classes due to the hit of the nerf hammer, and i rarely see them with high kill ratio/points in domination because of that, with exeption of pugs vs elite.
i dont care about their tankiness but damage has to be scaled down!
they got 85% damage bonus by feats, 3 at wills 1 encounter and they have a daily ready, sunburst ignoring CC immunity, astral shield is out of control and god.....fire of the gods !! 100% weapon damage for 15 sec crittable ( still aoe just saying)???? really????? that's a 1500% weapon damage if not critted; carefull attack with glyphs, piercing and plague fire is a joke compared to that.
i m not asking for a full nerf to everything like people use to do with tr but just take a look at rightneous.
lol This ^
So many people complaining about TR damage right now who obv haven't been hit by a high end DC dot.
We have mentioned that only burst classes can currently kill dcs of this build so your comment on trs and cw doesn't help with the topic.
The topic is how to fight them if you don't have the burst and so far we got nothing substantial.
Counter arguments to yours
1)The game balance should not allow unresolvable fights - as someone mentioned in a different post, every fight should have resources that you spend and when you are out the fight is over. In this case the resources are generated faster than they can be spent. Which leaves us with bad game play. Every class should have a window of opportunity to be killed.
2)Clerics are not supposed to be superior in dps over purely dps classes. Why:
a) Clerics have both healing and dps powers - if their dps is superior than pure dps classes, then the additional healing would put them in even superior advantage.
b) Clerics strength comes from their impact on the team as all of their powers are designed for that - if they are stronger then others in 1v1 versus single target oriented chars, than the difference will only grow in team fights - and as we have seen from experience currently Cleric has this superiority even with the disadvantage from gear.
3)These amounts of damages comes from powers that are currently broken - if you read the other threads you would see that people are constantly complaining about them too.
Further more the topic is about unkillable not dps clerics. If they cant be killed with clear gear advantage, how do we kill them without one.
With exception of GWF - i personally have never seen something like that they usually grow in their survivability as the gs improves, not in damage. Maybe that was top gs player with strange build? Anyway gwf are currently one of the weakest classes due to the hit of the nerf hammer, and i rarely see them with high kill ratio/points in domination because of that, with exeption of pugs vs elite.
U should not speak this if u played since beta or at least from Mod 1. DC always have to feed and CANNOT 1v1 ANY OTHER CLASS WITHOUT DYING LATER IN ANY GS BRACKET. Luckily we got a revamp after feeding for years. (Yeah~ years... u never know how a beta pvp DC suffers...)
Personally although i dunno what makes DC so imbalance because i got several types of losing or dying way when i meet other classes.
1. I have no chance or no one to heal.
2. I am focused first.
3. I am cc-ed by CW.
4. I am knocked out from node by GF.
5. I face a good GWF and cannot kill him, leaving node red contested.
6. Someone send a TR to hunt me.
7. HR damm hiding here and there and i cant do anything to secure my node.
8. SW super runner and burst heal like mad there and i cant catch him.
So what can i do if i am heal-oriented tank? I cant kill!! DPS-oriented?? I die faster ok?? Just play and seek for advice or just ignore the poor DC. What do u expect a DC to do? DC sacrifice his CC abilities to do higher dmg than CW, sacrifice dps to do healing. Or u want him to be a free kill dummy like past 4 modules?
BTW, you should notice this is the only chance we can complete our pvp campaign right? We can never double kill (not even triple) unless we go troll build or gear stomp the opponents, now this is our chance if we want to do our campaign. Last time we are attackless, having average healing and tankiness (compared to GWF and GF) and cannot face anybody decent 1v1. In your theory, you will ask why should this class exist?? It is so underpowered and yet not receiving any buff but tons of nerfs for 5 mods (pre-mod 1 to mod 4)!!
Yet, we are still playing as a pvp DC (although not a lot, maybe 5% of total DC only, rest are pve DC). We are trained to be annoying and practicing suicide every game, every time, every where to free up sometime for our allies to do something. Instead of qq-ing, why dont u adapt the spirit of us and accept the revamp of our skills?? You can be annoying to DC and i pretty sure they will hate u.
Dont forget about healing depression. It will reduce our faithful feats effect to minimal. If someone suggest our feat health trigger percentage be lowered to 20% or lower. We will die to SW anytime ok??
Okay after rereading this thread I realized that it was a whole bunch of nonsense.
-OP states that the DC wasn't attacking. You can't build empowered stacks to even be unkillable, withou attacking even if with at wills.
-Also pretty ridiculous how someone states that the heals are OP. Unless the DC is bursting you down in 3 hits like last Mod HR, then you shouldn't be complaining about the DC heals. Also don't confuse paths
-The DC is the only class that is doing their job. They are FAR from unkillable
-Stop crying because you can't kill a class. It's not your JOB to kill the class so get someone who has that job
-A DC with any lower than 30k health IS NOT unkillable. Get that fact straight. I've tested it with other chars!
Unless there is a HUGE gs difference, you should not think about 1v1 scenarios.
It's a full tank healer.
You are not supposed to take it down alone. Or it would be a useless build as it was in module 4.
You have an enemy that is focused on tanking and healing. And nothing else. Focus him with other players. Any class has CC to some degree. The better suited for the task are obviously CWs and TRs right now. GWFs and GFs can help too.
Point is, if you don't have enough CC or if you don't focus enough, you struggle. It's not an easy task and it's not supposed to be easy to take down a full tank DC. Yet, with some strategy as described above and some focused CC and DPS, you can do it. As said, just need to do not waste DPS when the DC is inside EAS, group CC-burst when out of EAS, group CC to prevent from using at-wills/ healing when inside EAS, knock out of EAS if you're a GF, DC or CW with repel, and burst. Repeat till it's dead. He may shoot gift of faith one time and heal if the burst is not too fast. But after that, with the above strategy, he will eventually fall.
If you don't have enough DPS, focus, or strategy, the DC will seem unkillable.
People got used at tank DC that yeah, could tank a bit, but would fall in 1v1 quite often. Now tank DCs do what they are supposed to do: be hard to take down, and heal. I don't know if a tone down is needed. May be gift of faith needs to respect healing depression but imho even BiS DCs would go down when focused by 2-3 BiS enemies. Feels balanced to me but i play a 11k tank DC alt, so may be at BiS level it's different. For my own personal experience it feels quite fair now: if the enemy fails at focusing me with enough CC, i can tank forever. If the enemy is strong and focuses me for good or my team is too weak to protect me, i fall. Sometimes even quite fast. Current TRs with permadaze or 1-shot kills can be a threat too. Need to dodge dazes or it gets nasty.
CC can work, but in my experience (as a GF) it will take everything you have and some more, coupled with a considerable gear advantage to get the DC out of the way.
I got into the same situation you described. Plus some more.
- my main is a gwf so i face tank DC from a fighter point of view.
- faced some tank GF on not great GS and they are quite tanky, can stall more geared enemies for long too
- i also play a tank DC scrub at 11k GS and got in the same situation u described
DPS DC need a tone down. Out of queston. Can't use it to balance tank build since i find DPS DC specifically to burst way too much. So yeah, a DPS DC would burst down anything including the 12k tank DC you faced. And easily. On the other side, when i face a tank DC with my gwf i consider this:
It's a full tank healer. And i'm not a full DPS build. On top of that, GF is not a DPS class, in your case. A tank DC is supposed to tank 2-3 DPS classes at same GS. Only build able to solo it at same gs should be a full glass cannon dps build that would also die from a full tank dc puny damage. So i'd say a full dps cw, or tr, or hr may be. Dps classes in their full dps build, cause you face a tank class in its full tank build. Is it possibile a more geared player at higher GS can't solo it but only do that much? I'd say yes. GF is not a DPS burst class. A CW, a TR, a HR at same GS as you would most likely do the job through either higher cc or burst. But these are DPS classes so at higher GS i'd give them the power to burst down a full tank, even if they are not in full dps build. A GF or gwf is most likely weak in cc and DPS to take down a full tank who is supposed to take on multiple enemies at esame GS.
Also, you should be a full DPS GF to talk about soloing a full tank. It's an extreme build, 100% focused on tanking and healing. If you are, as most pvp fighters, a mix of DPS and survivability, you are non-maxed DPS build vs a max tank. It's not your usual 12k vs 19k. You're facing a specialist. I've also seen one 13k full tank GF holding a node for long vs 3 more geared enemies. Some classes can focus on tankiness and achieve impressive results in that field. With weaknesses.
A full tank imho needs to go down fast only vs 3+ enemies in pvp. 2v1 go down slowly. 1v1 unkillable if well played/build. At same GS. Scale up to a tank class (GF) with a pvp build where DPS are not maxed ( you're not a glass cannon GF in pvp usually). You should still not be killing him solo. At same GS you would barely scratch him. At higher GS you almost kill him.
Go glass cannon (100% DPS focus) and you fill that gap to kill fast the 100% tank with lower GS.
Tank DC is pretty much balanced, just need right tactic and keeping in mind you're facing a 100% tank, so it's an extreme build and you need either extreme DPS or some help.
DPS DC is in need of a DPS tone down. Too much burst right now and monster dots kill people too fast imho.
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kacsaneverMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 167Arc User
i dont care about their tankiness but damage has to be scaled down!
they got 85% damage bonus by feats, 3 at wills 1 encounter and they have a daily ready, sunburst ignoring CC immunity, astral shield is out of control and god.....fire of the gods !! 100% weapon damage for 15 sec crittable ( still aoe just saying)???? really????? that's a 1500% weapon damage if not critted; carefull attack with glyphs, piercing and plague fire is a joke compared to that.
i m not asking for a full nerf to everything like people use to do with tr but just take a look at rightneous.
I just wanna correct your mistakes and agree w/ bugs you mentioned. My replies are for the underlined parts in order.
1. SB: Yes, it is a BUG. Has been reported many times so far. I as a DC hope it will be fixed soon. It is a game breaker BUG in PvP and gives too much advantage in PvE I do not wanna have.
2. AS: True, it gives flat 30% DR instead of the old 24% w/o the heal. Tuning down to 24% would be enough. As soon as it is done, if you could not kill the DC w/ this DR or knock out the DC from shield it is your problem (let her/him be cared by someone who can).
3. FoG: Not true. It was fixed. FoG can NOT crit and it is NOT dispersed as an AoE on activation. It was fixed during the test phase so please, do not broadcast false info.
As I already wrote in this thread, there are buged skills(DG/BtS/SB)/feats(CG) need to be fixed. Do it first then we will see.
I just wanna correct your mistakes and agree w/ bugs you mentioned. My replies are for the underlined parts in order.
1. SB: Yes, it is a BUG. Has been reported many times so far. I as a DC hope it will be fixed soon. It is a game breaker BUG in PvP and gives too much advantage in PvE I do not wanna have.
2. AS: True, it gives flat 30% DR instead of the old 24% w/o the heal. Tuning down to 24% would be enough. As soon as it is done, if you could not kill the DC w/ this DR or knock out the DC from shield it is your problem (let her/him be cared by someone who can).
3. FoG: Not true. It was fixed. FoG can NOT crit and it is NOT dispersed as an AoE on activation. It was fixed during the test phase so please, do not broadcast false info.
As I already wrote in this thread, there are buged skills(DG/BtS/SB)/feats(CG) need to be fixed. Do it first then we will see.
its definitely aoe, i got hit by that behind my bait and switch dummy.
and can tick up to 30k so maybe cannot crit but some strange interaction is happening.
about AS, the point is that a dps DC should not fully benefit from that kind of defence
What you say about tank DC is nonsense. If DC was full tank and could do nothing besides tanking it would be fine that he wouldn't die against 1v1 or 1v2 ever like it is now. But the thing is, he can make other teammates immortal at the same time without losing anything. In fact, he fills his GoF faster when there are team mates around. Now either DC keeps his self heals to max and only give minor support, or provide great support but lose survivability. There's no other way around.
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kacsaneverMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 167Arc User
its definitely aoe, i got hit by that behind my bait and switch dummy.
and can tick up to 30k so maybe cannot crit but some strange interaction is happening.
about AS, the point is that a dps DC should not fully benefit from that kind of defence
If you think we can test it on test server in IWD (or you can do it w/ one of your friends). If it was true, then it is a bug - what a surprise. I can imagine that the code counts the hit dealt on your dummy as you were hit -> BUG. But procing on you wont cause it procing anyone else around you.
The increased damage is because of the increased damage (in- and outgoing) from buffs/debuffs.
What you say about tank DC is nonsense. .......... Now either DC keeps his self heals to max and only give minor support, or provide great support but lose survivability. There's no other way around.
TBH, Tank DC does support a lot and not that kind of be tanky and support a little only. Every DC skills that benefits himself also affect his allies. (eg. HW, Ex, AS, SB, DG, HG, DA etc). Thats why DC is counted as support, you must be near to him so that his skill when protect and heal him will also heal u. That guy you quote basically got the correct info and know how the mechanics run, at least i agree to him.
TBH, Tank DC does support a lot and not that kind of be tanky and support a little only. Every DC skills that benefits himself also affect his allies. (eg. HW, Ex, AS, SB, DG, HG, DA etc). Thats why DC is counted as support, you must be near to him so that his skill when protect and heal him will also heal u. That guy you quote basically got the correct info and know how the mechanics run, at least i agree to him.
I think you misunderstood. I was talking how DC should be adjusted and not how he currently is. Currently he's both the best tank in pvp and makes everyone in his team tanks. And the combo of DC + KV GF is litterally immortal. Only the currently broken TR keeps DC in check. If TR gets nerfed and DC stays, the fotm players will migrate to DC and make pvp unbearable again.
What you say about tank DC is nonsense. If DC was full tank and could do nothing besides tanking it would be fine that he wouldn't die against 1v1 or 1v2 ever like it is now. But the thing is, he can make other teammates immortal at the same time without losing anything. In fact, he fills his GoF faster when there are team mates around. Now either DC keeps his self heals to max and only give minor support, or provide great support but lose survivability. There's no other way around.
How is it nonsense, i only talked about tankyness since the topic is DC survivability.
If you take a look at my previous posts, i stated how tank DC should improve team surcivability but not make them immortal.
Also, you are wrong. Your DC that heals a lot and loses survivability is the real nonsense. A tank DC can only go for full tankyness in pvp and give some support. The second option you descrive would be dead fast and a dead DC heals nothing at all. Tank DC in pvp is always focused heavily. Ever played one? Can't afford to lose tankyness. You first tank and survive, in the meanwhile you give support. PvP is not pve where a GF can aggro all the mobs off you. In pvp enemies come after you like a pack of hungry wolves. If you focus on party heals first and sacrifice tankyness, you die fast and are useless. Nonsense.
So i commented on how a tank DC should tank.
About support, it should improve his team survivability or else would be a useless point holder less effective than a perma. But not make them immortal.
About GF-tank DC combo: a double tank combo like that is supposed to be problematic. It's a class meant to protect with a class meant to support so they synergize well. You can also put together 2 red glyphed cws and they will burn fighters on the spot. What must be done is balancing the class itself to tank like they do now and give some support but not making the team immortal.
Then, if sinergy with other classes prove too strong, you tweak stuff. You do not nerf straight one class. Tankyness is OK imho. What must be looked at are party heals in pvp and DPS overkill on DPS DC.
I think you misunderstood. I was talking how DC should be adjusted and not how he currently is. Currently he's both the best tank in pvp and makes everyone in his team tanks. And the combo of DC + KV GF is litterally immortal. Only the currently broken TR keeps DC in check. If TR gets nerfed and DC stays, the fotm players will migrate to DC and make pvp unbearable again.
I think you misunderstood
there is a reason why clerics looks like this (especially the hat)
[IMG][/img]
[IMG][/img]
[IMG][/img]
clerics are meant to be cruel and immortal
with all the respect to the hammers, swords, knifes and books you bring into battle
we bring the wrath of the gods
I think you misunderstood. I was talking how DC should be adjusted and not how he currently is. Currently he's both the best tank in pvp and makes everyone in his team tanks. And the combo of DC + KV GF is litterally immortal. Only the currently broken TR keeps DC in check. If TR gets nerfed and DC stays, the fotm players will migrate to DC and make pvp unbearable again.
Fotm players go for op classes. Immortal teams of 5 tank dcs would just stall a match forever, killing nobody. Not really attractive. More likely they would go for current DPS DC.
It's a full tank healer. And i'm not a full DPS build. On top of that, GF is not a DPS class, in your case. A tank DC is supposed to tank 2-3 DPS classes at same GS. Only build able to solo it at same gs should be a full glass cannon dps build that would also die from a full tank dc puny damage. So i'd say a full dps cw, or tr, or hr may be. Dps classes in their full dps build, cause you face a tank class in its full tank build. Is it possibile a more geared player at higher GS can't solo it but only do that much? I'd say yes. GF is not a DPS burst class. A CW, a TR, a HR at same GS as you would most likely do the job through either higher cc or burst. But these are DPS classes so at higher GS i'd give them the power to burst down a full tank, even if they are not in full dps build. A GF or gwf is most likely weak in cc and DPS to take down a full tank who is supposed to take on multiple enemies at esame GS.
Also, you should be a full DPS GF to talk about soloing a full tank. It's an extreme build, 100% focused on tanking and healing. If you are, as most pvp fighters, a mix of DPS and survivability, you are non-maxed DPS build vs a max tank. It's not your usual 12k vs 19k. You're facing a specialist. I've also seen one 13k full tank GF holding a node for long vs 3 more geared enemies. Some classes can focus on tankiness and achieve impressive results in that field. With weaknesses.
A full tank imho needs to go down fast only vs 3+ enemies in pvp. 2v1 go down slowly. 1v1 unkillable if well played/build. At same GS. Scale up to a tank class (GF) with a pvp build where DPS are not maxed ( you're not a glass cannon GF in pvp usually). You should still not be killing him solo. At same GS you would barely scratch him. At higher GS you almost kill him.
Go glass cannon (100% DPS focus) and you fill that gap to kill fast the 100% tank with lower GS.
Tank DC is pretty much balanced, just need right tactic and keeping in mind you're facing a 100% tank, so it's an extreme build and you need either extreme DPS or some help.
DPS DC is in need of a DPS tone down. Too much burst right now and monster dots kill people too fast imho.
You put a 12k Protector GF or a 12k Sentinel GWF on a node and focus it, it will die in seconds. Guaranteed. There is no ways that a 12k tanky GWF or GF would survive my 19k Conqueror and it is folly to argue otherwise.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
Yes, it is nonsense because DC is not a tank. It's a support class + sub-controler. Now take a real protector GF and compare to the faithful DC:
1. Low damage - check (DC), check (GF)
2. Good support - check (DC), check (GF)
3. Good defence - check (DC), check (GF)
4. Immortality - check (DC)
5. Making your team immortal - check (DC)
GF has a weakness - his back. Even if he's abusing target lock he can be countered during the moments he attacks. Not to mention he's easy to handle with any 2 classes even if they're undergeared. Whereas DC doesn't have any weaknesses as long as he's properly geared. His GoF automatically activates even if he's sent flying, it works from soulforged too. Not to mention that DC got 4 dodges, his AS is OP beyond imagination and even without GoF his healing is insane.
So please, stop telling that DC should be tanking half a team easily and still provide support to theirs. Also, it's up to the team to protect their healers so they can support their team. And not the healers tanking a whole team by themselves leisurely and supporting theirs at the same time. That's bull****.
In other games healers either use healing on themselves or on their party with AoE skills having huge delays and halved effect. That's what our clerics need.
You put a 12k Protector GF or a 12k Sentinel GWF on a node and focus it, it will die in seconds. Guaranteed. There is no ways that a 12k tanky GWF or GF would survive my 19k Conqueror and it is folly to argue otherwise.
Never talked about gwf sentinel. But a full tank GF yes, can imho tank a lot if he focused on tankyness alone and is good at using his guard. Let's say from what i've seen, a full tank GF can tank a lot. Reflect builds if i remember well are good at that. But immortal idk. It's true that a GF still has his weaknesses. But also more base attack compared to a full tank DC, imho.
Yes, it is nonsense because DC is not a tank. It's a support class + sub-controler. Now take a real protector GF and compare to the faithful DC:
1. Low damage - check (DC), check (GF)
2. Good support - check (DC), check (GF)
3. Good defence - check (DC), check (GF)
4. Immortality - check (DC)
5. Making your team immortal - check (DC)
GF has a weakness - his back. Even if he's abusing target lock he can be countered during the moments he attacks. Not to mention he's easy to handle with any 2 classes even if they're undergeared. Whereas DC doesn't have any weaknesses as long as he's properly geared. His GoF automatically activates even if he's sent flying, it works from soulforged too. Not to mention that DC got 4 dodges, his AS is OP beyond imagination and even without GoF his healing is insane.
So please, stop telling that DC should be tanking half a team easily and still provide support to theirs. Also, it's up to the team to protect their healers so they can support their team. And not the healers tanking a whole team by themselves leisurely and supporting theirs at the same time. That's bull****.
In other games healers either use healing on themselves or on their party with AoE skills having huge delays and halved effect. That's what our clerics need.
Nope. What you describe is mod 4 tank DC, and it sucked. Never said it must tank a whole team. Being a full tank, it's supposed to kill nothing but require more than 1 enemy to take down. Quite simply. Being a semi-tank healer leads to nothing in pvp. You die in seconds and do literally nothing unless your team mates babysit you all the time. What you do not understand is that in pvp enemies go straight at the DC. Being half tanky and healing a lot is useless. You die in seconds and heal nobody.
As is not op, just nab players can't understand that for those 10 seconds They must only cc to prevent the dc from using at-wills, or push the DC out of as and burst.
Key is keeping the DC busy dodging or cced. It is not immortal, just requires good focus. What can require a fix is excessive party heals. But a tank DC going full tank in pvp must be that tanky.
Or try go pvp with your supposed support- control DC and see what you do. My guess: get to mid, focused, killed fast while dealing no damage. A support class that deals no DPS and requires babysitting from team to survive? Nice damage.
Sorry dude but you've no clue about how pvp tank DC works. You descrive module 4 DC, who could be solo'd, heal some and do something only if his team was protecting him all the time at same GS. Nonsense. Sorry, that's not balance.
Comments
However, it's 2 classes this time.
We are searching for the way to counter those clerics - so far we got
a)Kill them to half hp, then one shot them without triggering GoF,
b)One shot them with tr execution.
c)Don't play classes with no cc.
There aren't that many of any class in the leaderboard besides TRs. Doesn't make DC any less OP. It's just that TR is still much better and requires no skill apart from counting up till 2. If TR gets rightfully nerfed we'll see a huge increase of DCs. It has always been this way. Noobs always will choose the most broken class.
I have a problem with this.
Just fought a DC. 2x War Prophet, 2x Profound Sentinel, Thayan mainhand, blue pants (no socket), purple shirt (no socket), Thayan belt, a blue ring. 21k HP, no enchantment was greater than a rank 5 and he only had one radiant slotted (480 HP). His armour had a rank 5 cruel enchant. 2x blue artifacts. Normal Holy Avenger. Lesser Soulforged. If we are honest, this is a low-geared PVP character.
Me. 19k Conqueror GF. Greater Plague Fire. 22.6% Arpen, further 11% resistance ignored from CON. 4k power. + Tab Mark. 10% damage bonus to controlled targets (Crushing Pin feat).
If he had his Soulforged up, said DC was able to repeatedly survive my entire rotation with my 5 stacks of Reckless Attacker up;
- Bull Charge to clear him from his Shield
- 3x Griffon's Wrath (that is a chain stun following a prone)
- Anvil of Doom
Remember, every hit after the opening charge was 10% harder due to Crushing Pin.
I needed to throw Indomitable Strike in there before landing Anvil to guarantee a Soulforged proc and even then he could heal back up because I had nothing left, having expended my entire rotation.
Turn the tables: A 19k offensive DC would make mince-meat out of a 12k Protector GF.
This is not right. I take no issue with a DC from 15/16k up being able to laugh at that, but a guy with 12k GS and 21 HP being able to eat all of that is not right.
Right now DCs and TRs are out of synch. We've got 12k TRs bursting guys 6k GS above them and we've got heal-tanks surving control bursts from players that vastly out-gear them.
So according to you cc doesn't help either. Well that leaves us with 2 options.
a)lower enemys hp down to 40% - burst it in one go.
b)get tr to burst him from full hp in one go.
We have a problem here then - only burst classes becomes viable.
Fixed 'a)' for you. Gift of faith activates at 45%. And probably only CWs and TRs can burst down so much in one hit, other classes can't do so much damage in one hit. Fix TR and DC will emerge as the new FotM class.
CC can work, but in my experience (as a GF) it will take everything you have and some more, coupled with a considerable gear advantage to get the DC out of the way.
So its fine as long as you can have gear advantage in late game pvp where gears are maxed this would make it impossible no ?
you don't complain about a bug
you scream for nerf cause you play other class
1)did this healer DC threaten to kill you at any time?
2) if it was DPS DC, was it still "impossible" to kill?
3) comparing 19K DPS DC to other classes AT THE SAME GS, how far OP DC is?
cause I get hang in the air and ice knife of 50K drop on me
stab in the back for 40K and it wasn't even daily
GWF mange to do 20K damage to me with simple at will
me on the other hand take 2 sec to cast 5K damage at will.
DC have many powers and party buffs that are not related to GS, it was always like this
at high levels DC is even weak, and as ppl said before, check the leader board
instead of complaining about sun burst bug, you continue to ask for nerf with no good rason
We have mentioned that only burst classes can currently kill dcs of this build so your comment on trs and cw doesn't help with the topic.
The topic is how to fight them if you don't have the burst and so far we got nothing substantial.
Counter arguments to yours
1)The game balance should not allow unresolvable fights - as someone mentioned in a different post, every fight should have resources that you spend and when you are out the fight is over. In this case the resources are generated faster than they can be spent. Which leaves us with bad game play. Every class should have a window of opportunity to be killed.
2)Clerics are not supposed to be superior in dps over purely dps classes. Why:
a) Clerics have both healing and dps powers - if their dps is superior than pure dps classes, then the additional healing would put them in even superior advantage.
b) Clerics strength comes from their impact on the team as all of their powers are designed for that - if they are stronger then others in 1v1 versus single target oriented chars, than the difference will only grow in team fights - and as we have seen from experience currently Cleric has this superiority even with the disadvantage from gear.
3)These amounts of damages comes from powers that are currently broken - if you read the other threads you would see that people are constantly complaining about them too.
Further more the topic is about unkillable not dps clerics. If they cant be killed with clear gear advantage, how do we kill them without one.
With exception of GWF - i personally have never seen something like that they usually grow in their survivability as the gs improves, not in damage. Maybe that was top gs player with strange build? Anyway gwf are currently one of the weakest classes due to the hit of the nerf hammer, and i rarely see them with high kill ratio/points in domination because of that, with exeption of pugs vs elite.
lol This ^
So many people complaining about TR damage right now who obv haven't been hit by a high end DC dot.
U should not speak this if u played since beta or at least from Mod 1. DC always have to feed and CANNOT 1v1 ANY OTHER CLASS WITHOUT DYING LATER IN ANY GS BRACKET. Luckily we got a revamp after feeding for years. (Yeah~ years... u never know how a beta pvp DC suffers...)
Personally although i dunno what makes DC so imbalance because i got several types of losing or dying way when i meet other classes.
1. I have no chance or no one to heal.
2. I am focused first.
3. I am cc-ed by CW.
4. I am knocked out from node by GF.
5. I face a good GWF and cannot kill him, leaving node red contested.
6. Someone send a TR to hunt me.
7. HR damm hiding here and there and i cant do anything to secure my node.
8. SW super runner and burst heal like mad there and i cant catch him.
So what can i do if i am heal-oriented tank? I cant kill!! DPS-oriented?? I die faster ok?? Just play and seek for advice or just ignore the poor DC. What do u expect a DC to do? DC sacrifice his CC abilities to do higher dmg than CW, sacrifice dps to do healing. Or u want him to be a free kill dummy like past 4 modules?
BTW, you should notice this is the only chance we can complete our pvp campaign right? We can never double kill (not even triple) unless we go troll build or gear stomp the opponents, now this is our chance if we want to do our campaign. Last time we are attackless, having average healing and tankiness (compared to GWF and GF) and cannot face anybody decent 1v1. In your theory, you will ask why should this class exist?? It is so underpowered and yet not receiving any buff but tons of nerfs for 5 mods (pre-mod 1 to mod 4)!!
Yet, we are still playing as a pvp DC (although not a lot, maybe 5% of total DC only, rest are pve DC). We are trained to be annoying and practicing suicide every game, every time, every where to free up sometime for our allies to do something. Instead of qq-ing, why dont u adapt the spirit of us and accept the revamp of our skills?? You can be annoying to DC and i pretty sure they will hate u.
Dont forget about healing depression. It will reduce our faithful feats effect to minimal. If someone suggest our feat health trigger percentage be lowered to 20% or lower. We will die to SW anytime ok??
-OP states that the DC wasn't attacking. You can't build empowered stacks to even be unkillable, withou attacking even if with at wills.
-Also pretty ridiculous how someone states that the heals are OP. Unless the DC is bursting you down in 3 hits like last Mod HR, then you shouldn't be complaining about the DC heals. Also don't confuse paths
-The DC is the only class that is doing their job. They are FAR from unkillable
-Stop crying because you can't kill a class. It's not your JOB to kill the class so get someone who has that job
-A DC with any lower than 30k health IS NOT unkillable. Get that fact straight. I've tested it with other chars!
I got into the same situation you described. Plus some more.
- my main is a gwf so i face tank DC from a fighter point of view.
- faced some tank GF on not great GS and they are quite tanky, can stall more geared enemies for long too
- i also play a tank DC scrub at 11k GS and got in the same situation u described
DPS DC need a tone down. Out of queston. Can't use it to balance tank build since i find DPS DC specifically to burst way too much. So yeah, a DPS DC would burst down anything including the 12k tank DC you faced. And easily. On the other side, when i face a tank DC with my gwf i consider this:
It's a full tank healer. And i'm not a full DPS build. On top of that, GF is not a DPS class, in your case. A tank DC is supposed to tank 2-3 DPS classes at same GS. Only build able to solo it at same gs should be a full glass cannon dps build that would also die from a full tank dc puny damage. So i'd say a full dps cw, or tr, or hr may be. Dps classes in their full dps build, cause you face a tank class in its full tank build. Is it possibile a more geared player at higher GS can't solo it but only do that much? I'd say yes. GF is not a DPS burst class. A CW, a TR, a HR at same GS as you would most likely do the job through either higher cc or burst. But these are DPS classes so at higher GS i'd give them the power to burst down a full tank, even if they are not in full dps build. A GF or gwf is most likely weak in cc and DPS to take down a full tank who is supposed to take on multiple enemies at esame GS.
Also, you should be a full DPS GF to talk about soloing a full tank. It's an extreme build, 100% focused on tanking and healing. If you are, as most pvp fighters, a mix of DPS and survivability, you are non-maxed DPS build vs a max tank. It's not your usual 12k vs 19k. You're facing a specialist. I've also seen one 13k full tank GF holding a node for long vs 3 more geared enemies. Some classes can focus on tankiness and achieve impressive results in that field. With weaknesses.
A full tank imho needs to go down fast only vs 3+ enemies in pvp. 2v1 go down slowly. 1v1 unkillable if well played/build. At same GS. Scale up to a tank class (GF) with a pvp build where DPS are not maxed ( you're not a glass cannon GF in pvp usually). You should still not be killing him solo. At same GS you would barely scratch him. At higher GS you almost kill him.
Go glass cannon (100% DPS focus) and you fill that gap to kill fast the 100% tank with lower GS.
Tank DC is pretty much balanced, just need right tactic and keeping in mind you're facing a 100% tank, so it's an extreme build and you need either extreme DPS or some help.
DPS DC is in need of a DPS tone down. Too much burst right now and monster dots kill people too fast imho.
I just wanna correct your mistakes and agree w/ bugs you mentioned. My replies are for the underlined parts in order.
1. SB: Yes, it is a BUG. Has been reported many times so far. I as a DC hope it will be fixed soon. It is a game breaker BUG in PvP and gives too much advantage in PvE I do not wanna have.
2. AS: True, it gives flat 30% DR instead of the old 24% w/o the heal. Tuning down to 24% would be enough. As soon as it is done, if you could not kill the DC w/ this DR or knock out the DC from shield it is your problem (let her/him be cared by someone who can).
3. FoG: Not true. It was fixed. FoG can NOT crit and it is NOT dispersed as an AoE on activation. It was fixed during the test phase so please, do not broadcast false info.
As I already wrote in this thread, there are buged skills(DG/BtS/SB)/feats(CG) need to be fixed. Do it first then we will see.
its definitely aoe, i got hit by that behind my bait and switch dummy.
and can tick up to 30k so maybe cannot crit but some strange interaction is happening.
about AS, the point is that a dps DC should not fully benefit from that kind of defence
What you say about tank DC is nonsense. If DC was full tank and could do nothing besides tanking it would be fine that he wouldn't die against 1v1 or 1v2 ever like it is now. But the thing is, he can make other teammates immortal at the same time without losing anything. In fact, he fills his GoF faster when there are team mates around. Now either DC keeps his self heals to max and only give minor support, or provide great support but lose survivability. There's no other way around.
If you think we can test it on test server in IWD (or you can do it w/ one of your friends). If it was true, then it is a bug - what a surprise. I can imagine that the code counts the hit dealt on your dummy as you were hit -> BUG. But procing on you wont cause it procing anyone else around you.
The increased damage is because of the increased damage (in- and outgoing) from buffs/debuffs.
TBH, Tank DC does support a lot and not that kind of be tanky and support a little only. Every DC skills that benefits himself also affect his allies. (eg. HW, Ex, AS, SB, DG, HG, DA etc). Thats why DC is counted as support, you must be near to him so that his skill when protect and heal him will also heal u. That guy you quote basically got the correct info and know how the mechanics run, at least i agree to him.
I think you misunderstood. I was talking how DC should be adjusted and not how he currently is. Currently he's both the best tank in pvp and makes everyone in his team tanks. And the combo of DC + KV GF is litterally immortal. Only the currently broken TR keeps DC in check. If TR gets nerfed and DC stays, the fotm players will migrate to DC and make pvp unbearable again.
How is it nonsense, i only talked about tankyness since the topic is DC survivability.
If you take a look at my previous posts, i stated how tank DC should improve team surcivability but not make them immortal.
Also, you are wrong. Your DC that heals a lot and loses survivability is the real nonsense. A tank DC can only go for full tankyness in pvp and give some support. The second option you descrive would be dead fast and a dead DC heals nothing at all. Tank DC in pvp is always focused heavily. Ever played one? Can't afford to lose tankyness. You first tank and survive, in the meanwhile you give support. PvP is not pve where a GF can aggro all the mobs off you. In pvp enemies come after you like a pack of hungry wolves. If you focus on party heals first and sacrifice tankyness, you die fast and are useless. Nonsense.
So i commented on how a tank DC should tank.
About support, it should improve his team survivability or else would be a useless point holder less effective than a perma. But not make them immortal.
About GF-tank DC combo: a double tank combo like that is supposed to be problematic. It's a class meant to protect with a class meant to support so they synergize well. You can also put together 2 red glyphed cws and they will burn fighters on the spot. What must be done is balancing the class itself to tank like they do now and give some support but not making the team immortal.
Then, if sinergy with other classes prove too strong, you tweak stuff. You do not nerf straight one class. Tankyness is OK imho. What must be looked at are party heals in pvp and DPS overkill on DPS DC.
I think you misunderstood
there is a reason why clerics looks like this (especially the hat)
[IMG][/img]
[IMG][/img]
[IMG][/img]
clerics are meant to be cruel and immortal
with all the respect to the hammers, swords, knifes and books you bring into battle
we bring the wrath of the gods
Fotm players go for op classes. Immortal teams of 5 tank dcs would just stall a match forever, killing nobody. Not really attractive. More likely they would go for current DPS DC.
You put a 12k Protector GF or a 12k Sentinel GWF on a node and focus it, it will die in seconds. Guaranteed. There is no ways that a 12k tanky GWF or GF would survive my 19k Conqueror and it is folly to argue otherwise.
Yes, it is nonsense because DC is not a tank. It's a support class + sub-controler. Now take a real protector GF and compare to the faithful DC:
1. Low damage - check (DC), check (GF)
2. Good support - check (DC), check (GF)
3. Good defence - check (DC), check (GF)
4. Immortality - check (DC)
5. Making your team immortal - check (DC)
GF has a weakness - his back. Even if he's abusing target lock he can be countered during the moments he attacks. Not to mention he's easy to handle with any 2 classes even if they're undergeared. Whereas DC doesn't have any weaknesses as long as he's properly geared. His GoF automatically activates even if he's sent flying, it works from soulforged too. Not to mention that DC got 4 dodges, his AS is OP beyond imagination and even without GoF his healing is insane.
So please, stop telling that DC should be tanking half a team easily and still provide support to theirs. Also, it's up to the team to protect their healers so they can support their team. And not the healers tanking a whole team by themselves leisurely and supporting theirs at the same time. That's bull****.
In other games healers either use healing on themselves or on their party with AoE skills having huge delays and halved effect. That's what our clerics need.
Never talked about gwf sentinel. But a full tank GF yes, can imho tank a lot if he focused on tankyness alone and is good at using his guard. Let's say from what i've seen, a full tank GF can tank a lot. Reflect builds if i remember well are good at that. But immortal idk. It's true that a GF still has his weaknesses. But also more base attack compared to a full tank DC, imho.
Nope. What you describe is mod 4 tank DC, and it sucked. Never said it must tank a whole team. Being a full tank, it's supposed to kill nothing but require more than 1 enemy to take down. Quite simply. Being a semi-tank healer leads to nothing in pvp. You die in seconds and do literally nothing unless your team mates babysit you all the time. What you do not understand is that in pvp enemies go straight at the DC. Being half tanky and healing a lot is useless. You die in seconds and heal nobody.
As is not op, just nab players can't understand that for those 10 seconds They must only cc to prevent the dc from using at-wills, or push the DC out of as and burst.
Key is keeping the DC busy dodging or cced. It is not immortal, just requires good focus. What can require a fix is excessive party heals. But a tank DC going full tank in pvp must be that tanky.
Or try go pvp with your supposed support- control DC and see what you do. My guess: get to mid, focused, killed fast while dealing no damage. A support class that deals no DPS and requires babysitting from team to survive? Nice damage.
Sorry dude but you've no clue about how pvp tank DC works. You descrive module 4 DC, who could be solo'd, heal some and do something only if his team was protecting him all the time at same GS. Nonsense. Sorry, that's not balance.