zekethesinnerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 805Arc User
edited December 2014
Ahem, my dc, with full dl boons (but only 3 first gives gs, so 11 days) and 2 sharanderp boons, not playing on her at all, so wont get better, nothing in boon section beside those 5. Its 12k with t1 - 180 stats from pants/shirt, but if u add t2 it will hit 12k again. Now its dc, its not easyest class to make nice GS, personaly highest i saw was 23k (comparing to 26k gwf its a bit a diffrence) Remeber, for some stupid reason most beginners starts fom 2/4 +2/4, even end game somtimes defend this solution, im personaly not a fan of this. Not at all.
I think gf's and gwf can have this 1k more, i can tell HR can have (at least could as i remember from when i was starting in mod2) even 13k with blues and r5...
But, after all u need to rly try to NOT have more than 10k gs after couple of days of playing as new 60.
OOps forgot about dragon slayer ring, may be a bit lower then.
Ahem, my dc, with full dl boons (but only 3 first gives gs, so 11 days) and 2 sharanderp boons, not playing on her at all, so wont get better, nothing in boon section beside those 5. Its 12k with t1 - 180 stats from pants/shirt, but if u add t2 it will hit 12k again. Now its dc, its not easyest class to make nice GS, personaly highest i saw was 23k (comparing to 26k gwf its a bit a diffrence) Remeber, for some stupid reason most beginners starts fom 2/4 +2/4, even end game somtimes defend this solution, im personaly not a fan of this. Not at all.
I think gf's and gwf can have this 1k more, i can tell HR can have (at least could as i remember from when i was starting in mod2) even 13k with blues and r5...
But, after all u need to rly try to NOT have more than 10k gs after couple of days of playing as new 60.
OOps forgot about dragon slayer ring, may be a bit lower then.
10k soon after hitting 60 is easy enough on most classes. I went back and checked my DC as I've been gearing her recently and she's at around 12.5k now which includes 3 DR boons and 2 ToD boons (haven't started Sharandar yet as I loathe the place). She has the HP set, and everything else purple apart from blue shirt and pants. Mainly R5 enchants with R4 in Utility slots. But I couldn't have moved so fast without using AD from other toons to buy gear.
If I remove my High Vizier Set and gear up a Draconic Templar Set, my CW would win about 1000 GS.
If I also remove my Cultist, Erinnye and Rider of the Wild Hunt Companions and instead equip 3 165/165 Companions, I would increase my GS for an additional 990.
And if I would remove my 5 Dragon Hoard Enchantments and instead equip 5 Dark Enchantment lvl 10, I would increase my GS for an additional 1500.
With these 3 changes I could increase my GS for 3500.
And if I would remove my 5 Dragon Hoard Enchantments and instead equip 5 Dark Enchantment lvl 10, I would increase my GS for an additional 1500.
But would my CW be better?
No u would not, since movment dont counts into gs. And for sure ur cw would be not better, if i remember correctly some1 did math here, and HV 4/4 boon is somthing liek having 4.5k powah more(not sure this time, it could be much smaller number, and im after 24h without sleep)
Rigth now:
t2 set (beside AoW, diabolist) =32k ad
weap t2 set(blues may be better tho, stat wise or somthing) =18k ad max
jewel 4 pieces is 24k (mostly cheapier, and u can have t1)
9r5= 9k or so (if not radiants)
83k ad, its a bit of work, but its only couple of day, consider that we r speaking of now, not mod4 or lower, when prices where x1000%
for some items.
Its doable in 5 days of doing dailies? u dont need to have 52 leadership toons.
1. Low gs does not equate to a bad player.
2. Low gs in tiamat generally DOES make a bad difference especially if under 13K because there is generally (though not always) a relationship between GS and DPS. Tiamat is a DPS race.
3. I was in too many matches including one less than 5 minutes ago where we lost terribly due to too many players 13K GS and under in the instance I was in.
a lot of this come from tiamat. ppl fail and tend to blame the low GS players
in the last week, all my fails were with high GS players. (almost all are ppl crossing the red line and create a bug or overkill almost every head and fail on last phase)
with low GS group it doesn't happen, many change encounters before fighting the heads, almost all take extra care when it comes to take and activate the gems. and its rare to over kill a head with low GS group
still, I think you need decent GS to kill tiamat on time, I am not sure 13K group will make it
now to get full T2/1 set + accessories + rank 5 stones and reaching ~12k GS is cheap (probably less then the price of salvation)
you can do artifact weapon set for cheap price and some work as well
getting above this take a lot of time
finishing all the campaigns can take months
getting good companions and mount will require lot of saving
so the gap between new player and veteran player end up to be very big (I am playing a year now and still didn't make any enchant above rank 8 and beside my artifact belt, none of my artifact is maxed)
I don't see why low GS need to be bad player, most of them are new players and its got nothing to do with play good or bad
"I don't see why low GS need to be bad player, most of them are new players and its got nothing to do with play good or bad"
Agreed. GS doesn't make one a good player or a bad player. However, in Tiamat, DPS matters a lot... and typically those with 13K or higher GS (the higher, the more applicable) have stats in the correct places more often than not.
I don't see why low GS need to be bad player, most of them are new players and its got nothing to do with play good or bad
By bad, people really mean that their potential to contribute is really low.
Of course, if these new players spent money or months farming and if they took the game seriously and invested a lot of time/effort to learn everything, these "bad" players become good.
By bad, people really mean that their potential to contribute is really low.
Of course, if these new players spent money or months farming and if they took the game seriously and invested a lot of time/effort to learn everything, these "bad" players become good.
Oh I mean that, but I also mean they are bad players because they are making a bad decision to go into content to which they handicap the group. If they can't look at Tiamat (and I'll give them one run as a learning experience) and understand they need to get better gear and come back, they are a bad decision maker and that makes them a bad player. They need to go run VT enough to get the end chest weapon-off hand set at the very least. And Drake Ring sets are only a few stats off their CN versions, and I would find those perfectly acceptable.
The first 48hrs I expected a certain level of mayhem, and that most instances would fail. But when you are looking at the same low GS people who are in fail after fail TOT runs, you can't be expected to coddle them anymore. I'm never mean but I'm not going to sugar-coat this. The real and principle reason for running TOT is the Artifact weapon set, and if they can't commit enough to get their free basic Artifact(s) to Epic (and you can have 3-one basic, one class, one Skull from PvP), they must be clueless about the dedication it's going to take to level an Artifact set to the point (Epic) where it's useful to slot over the VT set.
And if you run Dread Ring Dailies and save up everything from your end chests for a month or so, when you hit these 2X refinement weekends, you'll have no problems getting those basic artifacts up to Epic. In the meantime though, I think it's too much to expect people to keep giving bad decision makers a pass and not place them on Ignore.
I agree that with extremely low GS you can easily fail tiamat
but all my last 20 fails or so were with high GS
ppl run to the heads over and over even if we have crazy DPS
and those bug fails are pain in the @#$#
you have to wait half hour for 500 RP and chance to get dragon ballz cause some 22K GWF ran straight to head thinking he can kill it solo
by some reason it doesn't happen on low GS raids???
Oh I mean that, but I also mean they are bad players because they are making a bad decision to go into content to which they handicap the group. If they can't look at Tiamat (and I'll give them one run as a learning experience) and understand they need to get better gear and come back, they are a bad decision maker and that makes them a bad player. They need to go run VT enough to get the end chest weapon-off hand set at the very least. And Drake Ring sets are only a few stats off their CN versions, and I would find those perfectly acceptable.
Yes. I would put ignorance and poor decision-making in there as well.
My point was that these players aren't inherently bad, they are bad because just like any person out there, if you do not invest your energy, resources, time and effort into anything, you will not produce.
These 10k GS players are "bad" not just because of their gear, but also because of all that.
If 13K+ fail, it is due to bad coding where the clerics bug or the heads bug. If you have too many < 13K, you either lose (complete waste of 25 minutes for the most part) or cut it so close your teeth are on edge. While I don't want a win button, I also don't want time wasted for an almost guaranteed fail if the DPS isn't there for what is often a 25 person pug.
One of my gripes is that I feel like the developers did not bother making a raid with challenging mechanics and so they balance it by not allowing players to play with friends and forcing everyone to try their luck pugging.
Yes, it would be fantastic if you could form groups before entering, and stay with the group upon entering. Also, if they wanted to make Tiamat doable at 10K or higher, they should have worked out it out that either A) everything would scale based on the group composite DPS (i.e. lower health of mobs if x number of 10K GS) or expand the time for the event so that groups with lower DPS have a chance to make it through the encounter. At present settings, the majority of the RAID needs to be 13K+.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!" pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all." looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
Please enlighten me. I asked for a GS limit and/ or a que system and many times ppl said, that this would be elitism or snobbism, why?
My point is, that I dont want to waste my time.
Without a que system you will have a max. of 5 minutes to coordinate. You dont know the build, setup, gear or skill of your teammates. Fact is, that PuGs are most likely not as effective as premades. You are more likely to fail.
I asked for a min GS why? In a perfect setup 10k players MIGHT be able to win against Tiamat, but without que, thats not going to happen. As it is, you do have just a few ways to influence you groups setup. You do have AFK ppl, disconnects and bad players, regardless of GS. Factoring this all in, your chances to win decrease with the ammount of 10-12k players in your group, bc. fact is, that you will most likely have to do your own share and then some.
True, there are good 10k players and bad 20k+ players. The difference is, that a good 20k+ player can outperform a good 10k player by miles (excluding DC and GF, bc of buff/ debuff effects).
In a bad group with many AFK ppl I had to defend the right cleric alone with my 21k GWF and it worked. Let me see a 10k player doing the same.
I dont mind helping ppl, I did it countless times with hundreds of T2 or VT runs to gear ppl up, advice or by giving them gear enchants etc.
There is a difference btw. helping and carrying. I can carry 3 10k players with my CW and another decent CW to win CN, I wont do it, bc. they dot need it and I would have to spent my time with little benefit to them and me. When it was lucrative to farm CN you took ppl who were able to contribute there, not 9k players.
Now, with Tiamat, we have end content, that you have to win for 80+ times. to get all gear and boons, for ONE char. I you want to minmax yor char, you are forced to farm it. Now, we are forced to farm wth ppl who cant contribute the same as I do and thats somehow ok, bc Tiamat would be a faceroll with 21k+ premades. What is not ok, is that you do need some ppl to outperform the average players by miles, to carry the slackers, AFKlers etc. With a decent min GS this burden would be shouldered by the group, not some high performers.
You claim, that asking for a min GS is elitism. I say, that asking for high skill/GS players to run Tiamat with 10k PuGs is entitelement. If you cant win alone, dont demand from others to do your work and compain about their elitism, if they decline.
It is not elitism, if you need to do farmruns and want to minmax effectiveness by running with high performance groups.
This is the first MMO I played, that forces ppl to run end content with PuGs and a entrance requirement, that is obviously not high enough to win the fight as PuG.
I know, that low GS players can perform well for a fact, but after ca. 100 runs I know too, that a group with more than 15 low GS players is most likely to fail, bc they wont be able to do their share of work and carry the low skill/ bad build/ AFK/ disconnected/ lagging players that are in the team.
"My point is, that I dont want to waste my time." -- excellent point. Tiamat encounter is ~30 minutes (< 15 minutes with proper DPS). Why gamble that time if you are not hardcore and only play for so much time in a day? When I wanted to get into Icewind Dale, I had to work on BOONS. When working on BOONS, I learned how much BOONS can increase GS. During that time period, I learned from my guild about proper stats, getting T1 gear, then T2 gear before going into Valindra's Tower, Malabog's Castle, and so on. I learned that Epic Shores of Turen at 13K GS min is a wipe if the entire team is at 13 K GS (unless you have either extremely fantastic players including a GF); so that thought me about over gearing (i.e. if it stated 13 K GS, wait until 15K+) as well as building up key stats like defense, armor penetration, and the like.
In addition by doing the harder dungeons and harder (epic) skirmishes, one learns coordination specially when working with guild mates, and the NW_Legit_Community channel.
Unfortunately with mod 5 you have relatively fresh 60's who want a challenge (that desire is ok) coming to Tiamat with less than 13 K GS and then wasting the time for others who have properly geared up, booned up, etc.
Comments
I think gf's and gwf can have this 1k more, i can tell HR can have (at least could as i remember from when i was starting in mod2) even 13k with blues and r5...
But, after all u need to rly try to NOT have more than 10k gs after couple of days of playing as new 60.
OOps forgot about dragon slayer ring, may be a bit lower then.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
If I also remove my Cultist, Erinnye and Rider of the Wild Hunt Companions and instead equip 3 165/165 Companions, I would increase my GS for an additional 990.
And if I would remove my 5 Dragon Hoard Enchantments and instead equip 5 Dark Enchantment lvl 10, I would increase my GS for an additional 1500.
With these 3 changes I could increase my GS for 3500.
But would my CW be better?
No u would not, since movment dont counts into gs. And for sure ur cw would be not better, if i remember correctly some1 did math here, and HV 4/4 boon is somthing liek having 4.5k powah more(not sure this time, it could be much smaller number, and im after 24h without sleep)
Rigth now:
t2 set (beside AoW, diabolist) =32k ad
weap t2 set(blues may be better tho, stat wise or somthing) =18k ad max
jewel 4 pieces is 24k (mostly cheapier, and u can have t1)
9r5= 9k or so (if not radiants)
83k ad, its a bit of work, but its only couple of day, consider that we r speaking of now, not mod4 or lower, when prices where x1000%
for some items.
Its doable in 5 days of doing dailies? u dont need to have 52 leadership toons.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! 9k-TR deals 15556 (26334) Physical Damage to you with Lashing Blade.
At 9k they defeat hands down any other class.
But pve-wise , OP at only 9k won't ba easy
2. Low gs in tiamat generally DOES make a bad difference especially if under 13K because there is generally (though not always) a relationship between GS and DPS. Tiamat is a DPS race.
3. I was in too many matches including one less than 5 minutes ago where we lost terribly due to too many players 13K GS and under in the instance I was in.
in the last week, all my fails were with high GS players. (almost all are ppl crossing the red line and create a bug or overkill almost every head and fail on last phase)
with low GS group it doesn't happen, many change encounters before fighting the heads, almost all take extra care when it comes to take and activate the gems. and its rare to over kill a head with low GS group
still, I think you need decent GS to kill tiamat on time, I am not sure 13K group will make it
now to get full T2/1 set + accessories + rank 5 stones and reaching ~12k GS is cheap (probably less then the price of salvation)
you can do artifact weapon set for cheap price and some work as well
getting above this take a lot of time
finishing all the campaigns can take months
getting good companions and mount will require lot of saving
so the gap between new player and veteran player end up to be very big (I am playing a year now and still didn't make any enchant above rank 8 and beside my artifact belt, none of my artifact is maxed)
I don't see why low GS need to be bad player, most of them are new players and its got nothing to do with play good or bad
Agreed. GS doesn't make one a good player or a bad player. However, in Tiamat, DPS matters a lot... and typically those with 13K or higher GS (the higher, the more applicable) have stats in the correct places more often than not.
By bad, people really mean that their potential to contribute is really low.
Of course, if these new players spent money or months farming and if they took the game seriously and invested a lot of time/effort to learn everything, these "bad" players become good.
Oh I mean that, but I also mean they are bad players because they are making a bad decision to go into content to which they handicap the group. If they can't look at Tiamat (and I'll give them one run as a learning experience) and understand they need to get better gear and come back, they are a bad decision maker and that makes them a bad player. They need to go run VT enough to get the end chest weapon-off hand set at the very least. And Drake Ring sets are only a few stats off their CN versions, and I would find those perfectly acceptable.
The first 48hrs I expected a certain level of mayhem, and that most instances would fail. But when you are looking at the same low GS people who are in fail after fail TOT runs, you can't be expected to coddle them anymore. I'm never mean but I'm not going to sugar-coat this. The real and principle reason for running TOT is the Artifact weapon set, and if they can't commit enough to get their free basic Artifact(s) to Epic (and you can have 3-one basic, one class, one Skull from PvP), they must be clueless about the dedication it's going to take to level an Artifact set to the point (Epic) where it's useful to slot over the VT set.
And if you run Dread Ring Dailies and save up everything from your end chests for a month or so, when you hit these 2X refinement weekends, you'll have no problems getting those basic artifacts up to Epic. In the meantime though, I think it's too much to expect people to keep giving bad decision makers a pass and not place them on Ignore.
but all my last 20 fails or so were with high GS
ppl run to the heads over and over even if we have crazy DPS
and those bug fails are pain in the @#$#
you have to wait half hour for 500 RP and chance to get dragon ballz cause some 22K GWF ran straight to head thinking he can kill it solo
by some reason it doesn't happen on low GS raids???
Yes. I would put ignorance and poor decision-making in there as well.
My point was that these players aren't inherently bad, they are bad because just like any person out there, if you do not invest your energy, resources, time and effort into anything, you will not produce.
These 10k GS players are "bad" not just because of their gear, but also because of all that.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
My point is, that I dont want to waste my time.
Without a que system you will have a max. of 5 minutes to coordinate. You dont know the build, setup, gear or skill of your teammates. Fact is, that PuGs are most likely not as effective as premades. You are more likely to fail.
I asked for a min GS why? In a perfect setup 10k players MIGHT be able to win against Tiamat, but without que, thats not going to happen. As it is, you do have just a few ways to influence you groups setup. You do have AFK ppl, disconnects and bad players, regardless of GS. Factoring this all in, your chances to win decrease with the ammount of 10-12k players in your group, bc. fact is, that you will most likely have to do your own share and then some.
True, there are good 10k players and bad 20k+ players. The difference is, that a good 20k+ player can outperform a good 10k player by miles (excluding DC and GF, bc of buff/ debuff effects).
In a bad group with many AFK ppl I had to defend the right cleric alone with my 21k GWF and it worked. Let me see a 10k player doing the same.
I dont mind helping ppl, I did it countless times with hundreds of T2 or VT runs to gear ppl up, advice or by giving them gear enchants etc.
There is a difference btw. helping and carrying. I can carry 3 10k players with my CW and another decent CW to win CN, I wont do it, bc. they dot need it and I would have to spent my time with little benefit to them and me. When it was lucrative to farm CN you took ppl who were able to contribute there, not 9k players.
Now, with Tiamat, we have end content, that you have to win for 80+ times. to get all gear and boons, for ONE char. I you want to minmax yor char, you are forced to farm it. Now, we are forced to farm wth ppl who cant contribute the same as I do and thats somehow ok, bc Tiamat would be a faceroll with 21k+ premades. What is not ok, is that you do need some ppl to outperform the average players by miles, to carry the slackers, AFKlers etc. With a decent min GS this burden would be shouldered by the group, not some high performers.
You claim, that asking for a min GS is elitism. I say, that asking for high skill/GS players to run Tiamat with 10k PuGs is entitelement. If you cant win alone, dont demand from others to do your work and compain about their elitism, if they decline.
It is not elitism, if you need to do farmruns and want to minmax effectiveness by running with high performance groups.
This is the first MMO I played, that forces ppl to run end content with PuGs and a entrance requirement, that is obviously not high enough to win the fight as PuG.
I know, that low GS players can perform well for a fact, but after ca. 100 runs I know too, that a group with more than 15 low GS players is most likely to fail, bc they wont be able to do their share of work and carry the low skill/ bad build/ AFK/ disconnected/ lagging players that are in the team.
In addition by doing the harder dungeons and harder (epic) skirmishes, one learns coordination specially when working with guild mates, and the NW_Legit_Community channel.
Unfortunately with mod 5 you have relatively fresh 60's who want a challenge (that desire is ok) coming to Tiamat with less than 13 K GS and then wasting the time for others who have properly geared up, booned up, etc.