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Does Low GS = Bad Player?

pointsmanpointsman Member Posts: 2,327 Arc User
edited December 2014 in PvE Discussion
That seems to be the implicit assumption that a lot of people make when they object to low GS people in the Tiamat raid. And I disagree with that.

You can say "if a person has only 10k GS that means he won't be able to substantially contribute to the raid", but it's been shown, twice now, that a 10k GS player is, under ideal conditions, able to pull his/her own weight in the Tiamat fight at least on par with an expected average DPS output of a participant. Under more realistic conditions, of course things will be different (there will be stacked buffs, there will be transit time between heads, etc.) but it is not the case that the DPS output of a 10k player is so pitifully low that he is just a hindrance. The DPS output is at least within the realm of reasonableness.

You can say "if a person has only 10k GS that means the person doesn't know how to play that character", but that isn't true either. For instance, my main is a CW. I've been playing CW for quite a long time now. If I rolled a fresh CW and got him up to 10k GS and went into Tiamat, I would know what my CW's proper role is in the raid. My hypothetical new CW's relatively low GS would not be indicative of the skill behind the player.

You can say "if a person has only 10k GS that means he's clueless about gearing up because it's so easy to get T1/T2 gear from AH", but then again, some people (myself included) want to earn our endgame gear through play, not just buy it from the shop. Plus, even if T2 sets are relatively cheap now, AD is hard to come by nowadays, especially for new players, and it is cheaper to earn it than to buy it.

You can say "if a person has only 10k GS that reduces the chances of defeating Tiamat and me getting the loot, as opposed to someone who has higher GS", and I think that is generally true (it's not necessarily true however in the case of, say, a debuff DC). But also, the game isn't just all about you. You may have a better chance at getting the loot if the 10k player is replaced by a 14k player (but then again, the 14k player might turn out to be a total idiot); meanwhile, the 10k player, which a lot of people here want to keep out of the raid entirely, doesn't get any loot at all.

At this point I think a lot of the arguments behind raising the GS requirement boil down to just simple GS snobbery. People don't want low GS players in there because of all of the prejudicial beliefs that go along with low GS (bad player, bad build, no skill, etc.). I would urge people to get beyond the prejudice and to actually form groups and discuss with your group, in the 4+ minute preparation phase, what your group is going to do. Even if your raid is going to do the zerg strategy, it's still a good idea to form groups for the purpose of killing summoners and getting gems. If you have a 10k GS person on your team, you can fight alongside this person and buff this person and help each other win.
Post edited by pointsman on
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    qutsemniequtsemnie Member Posts: 419 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Correlation vs Causation. You are reasoning entirely in terms of causation, while other people are reasoning in terms of correlation.
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    ainarelainarel Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 49 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Low GS does not necessarily mean the player is bad or not experienced - no way. Sometimes you can meet bad players with high GS, as well as vica versa. It's all individual, we can't speak generally about this aspect.
    But as for the GS requirements concerning Tiamat, it has nothing to do with how good a player is. No matter how good you are, you can't possibly hope to finish off a dragon alone, right? there have to be a few or at least a couple of other players, otherwise the attacks are too strong and your DPS is too low to survive that kind of fight. It's all there is, really. The amount of damage you can do. I remember myself at different stages, and I felt the difference even between 15k and 16k. A char is stronger with higher GS, and this is why we have the limitations of that kind in some zones.
    There's no insult in it. Simple numbers that fly out when you hit things.
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    rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    Low gearscore has a very reliable correlation with being a bad player. Low gearscore does not automatically mean it is a bad player.

    edit: I guess someone already pointed out the flaw in OP's post. Causation vs very very reliable Correlation
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    fuglymookfuglymook Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 119 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    There are so many variables as to why letting lower gs players in to Tiamat is not a good idea. Tiamat has to be considered End Game content and letting brand new characters into the mix is just plain bad idea. All previous content that was added was done at an increasing gear score requirement. It is a timed event and every phase is a burn phase so low health and low dps hinder the chance for success. The Dragon Server is an international server and not everyone can even communicate to work together. By allowing lower geared and newer players into this end game fight Cryptic/PWE has created a rift between have and have nots. A minimal gear score of 15k would follow other dungeons/events in progression. A 15k gear score is not hard to obtain and removes one less variable to this fight.
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    alkemist80alkemist80 Member Posts: 957 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Low GS does not necessarily mean that a player is bad or new to the game, but it may also mean that the player has not invested time in their toon as well. On the other hand, there are plenty of high GS players that don't know a thing about the game besides button smashing.

    However specifically for Tiamat, the fight is not tuned for a low GS. That means the fight was designed to be handled more efficiently when you have a midway balance of stats. Such as being able to put out the damage, take the damage and being able to self sustain.

    If you were to have a group of low GS players, Tiamat encounter would be extremely difficult and would need to be perfectly executed for success. Hypothetically the encounter could still be completed, but not with a bunch of randoms. In that case you would need to use some kind of coordination and voice communication. Thus more in line with WoW raiding.

    Sprinkle in a few low GS with power houses, then most likely the people with low GS will still get carried through the fight, depending on class. Some mistakes can be forgiven (such as killing a head in advance) if the DPS is still high enough.

    All in all, a low GS player in Tiamat will have huge survivability issues. They most likely wouldn't have the HP, defenses nor lifesteal to handle damage from the demons and Tiamat. That is the same with a high GS glass canon build, but that is a different situation all together.

    You could still be an awesome player but in the end, for this fight, it will be a limitation of gear. You could only take so many hits and once you're out of stamina, you are done. A dead player is no DPS or support. In a zerg environment, it actually slows down others to pick someone up, unless there is down time. Hence the "zerg" mentality, you just run back and continue where you left off. Unfortunately this game has lost any balance and the critical need of a specific role, such as the raid would be dependant on the tank or healer. Success or failure would be a key role in their hands. Though that is not the case in Neverwinter and anyone that goes down is expendable (for Tiamat fight).
    Banshee (Devotion Justice Oathbound Paladin) - Crueladevil (Soulbinder Damnation Scourge Warlock) - Sindania Balefire (Master Infiltrator Trickster Rogue)

    werewolf.jpg
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    rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    alkemist80 wrote: »
    On the other hand, there are plenty of high GS players that don't know a thing about the game besides button smashing.
    .

    Can you blame them? The entire PVE content of this game has slowly transitioned to brainless button-mashing. They took away punting, they took away shard.

    Let's be realistic though. The percentage of players who know nothing but button-mash skews heavily towards the low-GS players.

    I think we should stop trying to bring up idealistic scenarios wherein the low GS players contributes more than the high GS player. It is sensational, but the boring reality is, this rarely happens and if it does, it is overcome with the thousands of occurrences of the opposite.
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    mh0rammh0ram Member Posts: 310 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    All of the 20-25K GS folks started somewhere. Were they all bad players when the highest GS you could get was around 12K? I think not.
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    rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    mh0ram wrote: »
    All of the 20-25K GS folks started somewhere. .

    They didn't start by farming Castle Never I can tell you that.
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    mh0rammh0ram Member Posts: 310 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    They didn't start by farming Castle Never I can tell you that.

    This doesn't even make sense.
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    hefisdohefisdo Member Posts: 709 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    13k or less GS doesn't mean you're bad, it means you're new.

    If you have at least 1 month in this game you'll be able to get 13k or more by buying the cheap stuff on AH. Yes, even as a DC with HP.

    Some people don't like to run with new people and that's okay as long as they don't disrespect them.
    (´・ ω ・`)
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    rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    mh0ram wrote: »
    This doesn't even make sense.

    It means you start doing lower-tiered content and work your way up.
    hefisdo wrote: »
    13k or less GS doesn't mean you're bad, it means you're new.

    If you have at least 1 month in this game you'll be able to get 13k or more by buying the cheap stuff on AH. Yes, even as a DC with HP.

    Some people don't like to run with new people and that's okay as long as they don't disrespect them.

    Having a low GS can spell that your effectiveness is awful which could equate to being bad but yes there is a difference if you put it that way.
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    alkemist80alkemist80 Member Posts: 957 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Let's be realistic though. The percentage of players who know nothing but button-mash skews heavily towards the low-GS players.

    This statement goes both ways. Yes, there are always low GS newbies that do not know how to play the level 60 "end game". Everyone started out like that.

    Then you have the newer wallet warriors that want the best of everything and buy their way to a high GS. That is not to say that everyone with a high GS is a bad or newbie player. There are plenty of people that worked their way to the top. That includes investing time into the game, getting to know the game and doing proper research and builds.

    Neverwinter, like any game and any MMO, has a handful of every category. In the end, GS is not a true statement to judge the skill and knowledge of a player. However skill and having the necessary gear to complete certain content in the game is a different category.
    Banshee (Devotion Justice Oathbound Paladin) - Crueladevil (Soulbinder Damnation Scourge Warlock) - Sindania Balefire (Master Infiltrator Trickster Rogue)

    werewolf.jpg
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    pointsmanpointsman Member Posts: 2,327 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Let's be realistic though. The percentage of players who know nothing but button-mash skews heavily towards the low-GS players.

    How do you know this? The low GS players have to rely on their skills way more than on their gear.

    I could make the opposite claim with just as much justification: The high GS players do more mindless button mashing because their awesome gear covers for all of their mistakes.
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    rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    pointsman wrote: »
    How do you know this? The low GS players have to rely on their skills way more than on their gear.

    I could make the opposite claim with just as much justification: The high GS players do more mindless button mashing because their awesome gear covers for all of their mistakes.

    The amount of sigil of the hunter, aurora's catalog, unbalanced stats and wrong skills casted I see when I inspect them justifies my statement.

    Like I said, I will AGREE that there are lots of people who button mash but can you blame them when the PVE content has been dumbed down to mash buttons? Of course they cover up their mistakes by having awesome gear, but at least they use the right skills.
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    pointsmanpointsman Member Posts: 2,327 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    The amount of sigil of the hunter, aurora's catalog, unbalanced stats and wrong skills casted I see when I inspect them justifies my statement.

    That is a different argument.

    Low gear score is NOT the same as a bad build.

    Why do you assume that the Low GS guys are all people who picked the "wrong" artifacts?

    (And what do you have against Sigil of the Hunter anyway?)
    Like I said, I will AGREE that there are lots of people who button mash but can you blame them when the PVE content has been dumbed down to mash buttons? Of course they cover up their mistakes by having awesome gear, but at least they use the right skills.

    Low gear score is NOT the same as having no skills!

    You just continue to conflate "low GS" with "terrible player" when that is just not true, and furthermore, unbearably prejudicial.
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    rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    alkemist80 wrote: »

    Then you have the newer wallet warriors that want the best of everything and buy their way to a high GS. That is not to say that everyone with a high GS is a bad or newbie player. There are plenty of people that worked their way to the top. That includes investing time into the game, getting to know the game and doing proper research and builds.
    .

    It does speaks to investment in the game. People who invest in the game (money or time) are more prone to do research. Casual new players who don't really care are more prone to do random stuff that makes you scratch your head. Its not their fault really. This is a casual hobby to them. They are not obligated to rise from mediocrity.

    I have rarely seen a "wallet warrior" as you call it have a legendary or epic aurora's catalog. I have seen tons and tons of low GS players have that though.
    alkemist80 wrote: »
    Neverwinter, like any game and any MMO, has a handful of every category. In the end, GS is not a true statement to judge the skill and knowledge of a player. However skill and having the necessary gear to complete certain content in the game is a different category.

    Its been stated already that is it as value of high correlation and not causation. I don't think anyone would dispute that.
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    hefisdohefisdo Member Posts: 709 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    Having a low GS can spell that your effectiveness is awful which could equate to being bad but yes there is a difference if you put it that way.

    I think the OP is referring to the player, not the character.

    I was a good player with 10k GS back in M1 and I wasn't really effective in comparison to other people because I was new. My performance was bad, but I had the potential to do more.

    If I'm wrong and the topic is about bad characters, then yes, less GS can pretty much tell that a character is bad, in most cases.
    (´・ ω ・`)
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    pointsmanpointsman Member Posts: 2,327 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Quite honestly, I think we should just get rid of GS entirely.
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    hmdq#4491 hmdq Member Posts: 508 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    My 2 cents: the issue is that a "newbie" should never have items BIS in a "raid" supposedly new and the endgame with only a few months of lay. One "newbie" should go through all the stages that supposedly "elitist" passed somehow. The game wants to be democratic but just "offending" who already has more than + 2000h game!


    In my POV it is not whether or not GS or be good or bad in terms of skill, but how much time you spent in the game and learned his mechanics instead of just pushing buttons and here my friend with or without GS will always be the "monkeys without brain": and here there are many people in forum who say something and do something else in the PVP because this i usually call of: hypocrites! lol

    *** forgive yourself for bad English is not my native language, but I think it has to establish a certain level of communication! ***
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    rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    pointsman wrote: »
    That is a different argument.

    Low gear score is NOT the same as a bad build.

    Why do you assume that the Low GS guys are all people who picked the "wrong" artifacts?

    (And what do you have against Sigil of the Hunter anyway?)

    Low gear score is NOT the same as having no skills!

    You just continue to conflate "low GS" with "terrible player" when that is just not true, and furthermore, unbearably prejudicial.

    Correlation /= causation.

    I never said all low GS players pick the wrong artifacts just as you never said all wallet warriors have no skill.
    Low GS does not mean the player has no skills. Low GS merely correlates with bad builds, bad choices of gear. There are plenty of low GS players as well who do the best with what they've got.
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    rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    pointsman wrote: »
    Quite honestly, I think we should just get rid of GS entirely.

    A better solution would be to make PVE farming more viable to enable all legit f2p players to work their way up to 15k GS and eventually to 20k GS within a reasonable amount of time.
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    pointsmanpointsman Member Posts: 2,327 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Correlation /= causation.

    I never said all low GS players pick the wrong artifacts just as you never said all wallet warriors have no skill.
    Low GS does not mean the player has no skills. Low GS merely correlates with bad builds, bad choices of gear. There are plenty of low GS players as well who do the best with what they've got.

    Well, YOU are clearly using "low GS" to mean "bad build" or "no skill", because, news flash, a legendary artifact no matter which one, be it Catalog or DC Sigil, significantly boosts GS.
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    jaotutjaotut Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 576 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    People with low GS needs to stop justifying to us how they're not bad players. If we know nothing about another player, what would we rather see? Someone with 10K GS who lacks the gear and most likely experience compare to someone with higher GS? No, Of course not.

    If you claim that you have been playing for quite a long time, then I ask you, what have you been doing this whole time in game? You can make a minimum of 24k AD a day on each character. that's 168k AD a week by just refining your RAD. Go and take a look on the AH how cheap enchantments are. It doesn't cost much to improve your gear. Then there are boons, that are FREE. Go do them, you should have most of them.

    If you don't make the effort to have decent gear, then don't expect people to give you the respect you deserve by first glance at your gear.

    GS is actually not the most important thing. the right type of enchantments and gear is more important. The minimum requirement for Tiamat should be a Lesser Soulforge in armor, a Normal+ weapon enchantment. AND a relatively high resistance ignored around 20%+ if you're a dps class.
    Merlin - CW Merlyn - HR Psylocke - TR Black Widow - GWF


    Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
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    hefisdohefisdo Member Posts: 709 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    pointsman wrote: »
    Quite honestly, I think we should just get rid of GS entirely.

    I think the item designers should make 4p sets that are actually better.
    (´・ ω ・`)
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    rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    pointsman wrote: »
    Well, YOU are clearly using "low GS" to mean "bad build" or "no skill", because, news flash, a legendary artifact no matter which one, be it Catalog or DC Sigil, significantly boosts GS.

    Correct legendary artifacts do boost GS. Now tell me, how many "wallet warriors" have a legendary aurora's artifact? I usually see them with the more efficient Sigil of the DC.

    Look at the other side, how many low GS players have a blue or purple aurora's artifact.
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    pointsmanpointsman Member Posts: 2,327 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Correct legendary artifacts do boost GS. Now tell me, how many "wallet warriors" have a legendary aurora's artifact? I usually see them with the more efficient Sigil of the DC.

    Look at the other side, how many low GS players have a blue or purple aurora's artifact.

    well I have to translate your words, since by "low GS" what you really mean is "bad player".

    If you are asking me how many bad players make poor choices on artifacts, I would say, well duh, that's pretty much a truism.

    If you are asking me how many low GS players have purple DC sigils, that would be very few, because once a player starts getting purple artifacts, their GS's aren't low anymore.

    If you are asking me how many low GS players have green/blue DC sigils, I would say - pretty much everyone with green/blue artifacts are low GS, regardless of which artifact it is, and that includes DC sigils.
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    rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    pointsman wrote: »
    well I have to translate your words, since by "low GS" what you really mean is "bad player".

    If you are asking me how many low GS players have green/blue DC sigils, I would say - pretty much everyone with green/blue artifacts are low GS, regardless of which artifact it is, and that includes DC sigils.

    Low GS players means their current potential effectiveness to contribute is really low. I think that is a fair statement.

    As for the DC, MOST of them have terrible gear/enchantment/artifact choices (this means there are cheaper gear options that would benefit them a lot more). There are lots of exceptions sure.
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    lilhamletlilhamlet Member Posts: 260 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Correct legendary artifacts do boost GS. Now tell me, how many "wallet warriors" have a legendary aurora's artifact? I usually see them with the more efficient Sigil of the DC.

    As a player whose main is a DC, I'd be inclined to NOT call anyone with a Sigil of the Devoted a wallet warrior. To have that artifact, you need to have played 2 toons all the way to Icewind Dale, one of them a DC which, until mod 5, was painful due to a DC only having harsh language for DPS. Oddly, you can't heal bosses to death....

    As to the OP, a GS isn't the representation of how good a player is. I've seen an entire instance of 17-18k players lose a tiamat fight because the entire group was dead on green or frozen on white since no one decided to pop the right gem. That said, GS does imply available tools. I don't know about you, but if I know my task is to demolish a building, I'm more inclined to go with the group carrying sledgehammers than the ones with claw hammers.

    One more thing, in my reference to the white dragon head situation (and most of the heads)... see that red circle underneath you?... dodge!.... please.... for pity's sake!.... dodge!
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    peerukott1peerukott1 Member Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    10 k gs at level 60 would hint at a very casual player in the current economical climate in game though. Basically without putting a dime of real life money into the game you should be able to amass enough ad simply by leveling up and doing a few dailies - I mean literally a few not farming them. That you should be around gs 12k when reaching end game from where you can with little effort reach gs 14-15k.

    Seriously the entire well of dragons should have had a gs limit and a boon limit higher then icewind dale had. I find it only fair that people should do a little work to get there. Basically it is easier to get into the well then into the Icewind Dale and the benefits of the well are far bigger.
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