As a player whose main is a DC, I'd be inclined to NOT call anyone with a Sigil of the Devoted a wallet warrior. To have that artifact, you need to have played 2 toons all the way to Icewind Dale, one of them a DC which, until mod 5, was painful due to a DC only having harsh language for DPS. Oddly, you can't heal bosses to death....
As to the OP, a GS isn't the representation of how good a player is. I've seen an entire instance of 17-18k players lose a tiamat fight because the entire group was dead on green or frozen on white since no one decided to pop the right gem. That said, GS does imply available tools. I don't know about you, but if I know my task is to demolish a building, I'm more inclined to go with the group carrying sledgehammers than the ones with claw hammers.
I guess these are some of the points I am trying to make as well in defense of GS
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited December 2014
I really detest snobbery.
It doesn't matter if it's level based or gear score based, snobbery is snobbery and I know many lower geared players more than capable of holding their own in hard fights and many higher geared players unable to hold their own.
Gear only grants potential. Anybody who thinks it anything more isn't worth listening to.
A group comprised only of 10K gear score players might not be able to beat Tiamat but the world (not even the game) runs on the average performers. Sometimes people won't be the best but that doesn't mean they can't do the job.
Seriously the snobbery is unjust. It's an excuse. A scapegoat. Snobbery. Even if you need more than a group of 10K GS players there are plenty of higher geared players as long as they don't get snobby and decide to sit in the base.
As long as people work together they'll be fine. It's the snobbery that gets in the way most times.
Well that and the stupidity of standing on top of the clerics.
Ofc low GS does not mean bad player, otherwise all of us would be bad players till certain point.
For Tiamat, there should be a test: make party of players who have the lowest required GS and try to beat Tiamat. If you are not able to, then Devs need to raise GS requirement. Because, let's face it, this is dps HE and party with players predominantly below 13k GS can happen.
And after your patch strangely I'm not able to score even ONE win whereas before I was able to get quite a bunch of them (with bugged rewards, so no linu for me, but meh). After seeing almost all team on one head doing their best and head HP still draining painfully slow, you can clearly tell it's unfortunate matchup. No one to blame there.
Bids he then the spruces to singer him an anthems!
And the Woodsie Lord binders them fleshes to stone!
sigh..
they don't have the right builds... oh yay cookie cutters have set in.
you can get gear from the AH - well unless you want to actually earn it,<tactless comment removed>
and now that the flow of RP from gold sellers is drying up, people are going to see a lot more 'bad' players with low GS, simply because they can't buy a load of cheap refining stones.
some people can do a lot with a little, others can do a little with a lot.
me, I'm a casual player with 14.5k GS it's not maxed out , doesn't even have a weapon enchant.The build could certainly use work, hmm may have a use for the retrain token I found in the bag. I don't play much.
NO way in the world, having listened to the discussions of tactics required,would I queue for that fight. Not without being able to get certain things I have problems with, to cooperate (keyboard hates me)
sigh..
they don't have the right builds... oh yay cookie cutters have set in.
you can get gear from the AH - well unless you want to actually earn it, rather than pay to win.
and now that the flow of RP from gold sellers is drying up, people are going to see a lot more 'bad' players with low GS, simply because they can't buy a load of cheap refining stones.
some people can do a lot with a little, others can do a little with a lot.
me, I'm a casual player with 14.5k GS it's not maxed out , doesn't even have a weapon enchant. I don't play much.
NO way in the world, having listened to the discussions of tactics required,would I queue for that fight.
Well, you should do it at least once, just so you can see and understand the fight. Don't expect to beat it the first time, pretty much nobody does the first time. But that's ok.
It doesn't matter if it's level based or gear score based, snobbery is snobbery and I know many lower geared players more than capable of holding their own in hard fights and many higher geared players unable to hold their own....As long as people work together they'll be fine. It's the snobbery that gets in the way most times.
This I wholeheartedly agree with.
One thing for people to consider and understand is that this game has lost a number of people in our community because of how toxic the gearsnobs can be. Everything from chastising players for their gearscore or power loadouts, to kicking players who had waited in dungeon/skirmish queues for who knows how long, because it doesn't meet some artificial minimum for the random who got the party crown. Just look at your guild membership and see how many people have logged in recently (if you haven't kicked them for not logging).
If you don't like the group that you are put together with, then leave immediately so someone can fill the spot, don't try to kick them. If their loadout isn't ideal to what you want, then adapt.
While I can't speak for the devs, I can understand why the new zone doesn't have the same requirements of Icewind Dale (which frequently had player hunters who would do nothing but to to ensure that lower GS players could never complete their OpenPvP quests). The point is to be inclusive.
These are real people on the other end. For this game to grow, and hence get better, we need to make everyone feel welcome and facilitate their play rather than alienating them. If this game community declines, then we eventually lose the game. It's that simple.
One more thing: If you recognize that the tiamat fight dps isn't high enough for a 3rd round kill, speak in chat to fight for a 4th round (you can usually squeeze out a 1min 4th round). Sitting on the campfire won't secure a win.
Low GS/bad gear does not mean bad player. But it shows dedication and how much time you invested in your character. Its easy to see how some high GS people have the wrong gear/artifacts/enchants etc as easy it is to see when a low GS player has the same.
Everybody had to start at one place, so it never means it is a bad player. It just shows a lack of dedication. I mean as soon as you hit 60 you should be having 10k GS by just spending less then 10/20k AD in AH.
That being said. The chances are that a low GS player, has never read a guide, has never tried to optimize his character for what is the correct way instead of what he thinks is right himself, is pretty high.
Also GS in the only indicator we have in this game. The chances are super high that a 20k gs character will do more for a party then a 10k gs character. Just speaking from experience. There are ofc exceptions to the rule, but they are very rare. So i also tend to judge a character by his gear. I dont really look at gearscore because most of my friends are above 20k. But when i join random PvP matches and Tiamat, inspect some people, i judge them by their GS.
These are real people on the other end. For this game to grow, and hence get better, we need to make everyone feel welcome and facilitate their play rather than alienating them. If this game community declines, then we eventually lose the game. It's that simple.
This is true. On the other hand, there are people who cannot spend all their time in front of the PC (work, school, family, what have you). Their time should be considered valuable, too. As much as I know that SOME lower GS can do very well, I hate to think yet another half an hour of my in-game time will be wasted because of bad match making (again). I'd be better off if I ditched this whole tiamat HE and focused on normal ones, at least I'd get my linu's favour faster! Is that the point?
Bids he then the spruces to singer him an anthems!
And the Woodsie Lord binders them fleshes to stone!
Firtly, GS has nothing to do with skill. This applies especially to money warriors. How many times have we all done a dungeon or a PVP match, where a high GS was a big zero. Credit card can open the way up easily, but it won't grant any skills.
Here i think, the worst thing was- ok good for the company money wise- to release the campaign tokens. Before these were introduced to the game, even the laziest and non skilled player had to acquire some sorts of skill, simply by doing the dailies. This was a good training ground!
Secondly, builds can differ very much and GS means nothing again. Saw today a CW in full BI Purified gear, everything defense, he had very low power and nearly zero crit and arm pen. His GS was very decent, but everything defense and HP. Would you invite such a CW to do the dirty work? I wouldn't.
Here we come to the biggest mistake i think the Devs made with Mod 4 and now 5. Namely the game has changed to an all PVP style. When last year i made my first toons i knew clearly, if i wish a PVE a PVP or a hybrid char. Nowadays the line has moved from PVE to PVPish maps.
What do i mean? Well if you take a look at your party members at- for example- eSoT , the ones who have a good chance to survive the high damage spikes are mostly the high HP pool chars.
I have more the feeling, when i enter a new map or dungeon, that the primary stats are useless now and only HP and more HP matters. Cause it doesn't matter how big damage a classic PVE CW can do, she will fall sooner or later without a ton of HP. The same goes for every class.
When i make a guild run, i see that the "best" player is our mate, who has the most HP. She plays a HR and in old school PVE terms she should fail, her DEX is lower, then the attic. BUT in this new style, she rocks. I personally as an old school DnD player find this very odd.
The game design has failed in my eyes with Mod 4 and 5. Before them we would have laughed at a CW coming to a dungeon with a 20 INT. Now with gear score opened up and dungeons and skirmishes demanding ONLY HP, these odd builds are more common, then ever before.
So my advise would be to the Devs to bring back old school PVE dungeons, like the currently ghost house like T1 and T2 dungeons are.
Thirdly, Community management or the Devs should do something about this new snob style or elitist HAMSTER, that is spreading like a virus over the game.
When players get kicked out of a dungeon, cause they don't have a perfect vorpal or 18k+ Gs, than the integrity of the game is falling apart and we can't talk anymore about a group based game.
Just an example, was standing before Tiamat's temple and a famous PVP guild was mocking us, me too, cause i had "only" 17,7 k GS.
This humiliation ruined my fun and i had to log off for hours.
These players should be warned or even sanctioned by Admins! Cause whenever i have reported such a manor, sadly nothing has been done. My most disgusting experience was, when a player spitted on us, yes and i still see him running around, shame...
Fourthly, if i may give an advise to Devs, make all classes equal in GS terms. What i mean is my GWF has the same boons and is higher by more than 2k, then my evenly geared CW. If now Devs would bring them both to the same level, we would have less of these discussions about GS. and i find it very unfair for a CW player or any other non fighter class to have lower GS, while being able to do the same or even more for the success of a party.
Fifthly, i hope everybody of us has a mirror at home and with a bit of common sense, really doesn't go in green and blue to a end game dungeon or PVP. This little self restraint should be there. If you enter a high end game with 10k GS, you will ruin fun for your party, for sure. On the opposite, people who demand only 18 or 20K+ GS should also go and buy a mirror and take a deep look at it.
My advise to my fellow players would be, do first the campaigns in their order, than go to Tiamat. You still can find nice and appropriate dungeons and skirmishes for your GS brackets.
Mind you i think Devs should change those very low requirements for dungeons, that is very optimistically calculated. We don't have to take Tiamat as an example, ToS is a very good one here. I have never seen a full 8k party, except a TR to do ToS successfully. Sure other players can carry you, but it is not optimal.
Thank you for your time!
The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
Somewhat.....
Ok by mod2 having a set of T2s R6s and an artifact meant you had run some T2 dungeons because it was expensive to buy T2. Probably with the income from running those T2s you were moving to R7s. This process should have resulted in some comptancy at playing your class. By mod3 basic competance would result in 3 artifacts (2 if you only have one toon) and around the same loadout.
Right now? T2 is dirt cheap. With the earnings of running normal content to 60 one can easilly have T2s and R6s, A week or so in shara and Dread means you can IWD so you have some boons and 2-3 artifacts. You also have access to Tiamat so might have an arti weapon as well. So the example of 10K GS is rare and ultimately meaningless. At this point 14K (about where a toon lands If I played it enough to understand it and did not spend AD on it) is so easy to hit that GS does not tell you anything. 20K+ means either that the person plays a lot or that they don't mind paying cash to gear up. It can be either one. There is no way to tell unless you know them. So no, really. At this point GS is not indicative of much of anything.
Tiamat requires more damage then skill. All you need is people that knows how to do encounters, at-wills and dailies and hit the targets. Not much skill required to do that. Brute force works better than tactics in this situation.
But a bad player doing nothing in the fights are always bad nomatter what GS they have.
One big problem for new players or if you build a new toon and don't have an army of slaves doing leadership, is that we don't have access to easy RP points anymore. Upgrading anything now is pure pain and can't be done by playing a lot. AD income is far less, than it was back and with a stack of peridot over 100K ad, here you go average player.
The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
Jumping into anything without regard for how one's level of readiness *whatever that may be* will affect other players does in fact indicate that one is a bad player. Anyone who thinks that is not true needs to tug the ears, hear the pop, and then say 'I am an offender.'
How do you know this? The low GS players have to rely on their skills way more than on their gear.
I could make the opposite claim with just as much justification: The high GS players do more mindless button mashing because their awesome gear covers for all of their mistakes.
So, if we are talking 10gs, new to the game player (not alt), how much will they even know about the skills they HAVE to rely on?
If we are talking alts, an experienced person driving that 10 gs toon around, how strong are the tools at that person's disposal with a 10k toon that is built correctly?
Sure, there are different abilities that can make any class valuable in a certain way but how much DPS does a DPS class have available to contribute when their GS is 10k? 10k isn't a lot for stat allocation.
Seems that most who are offended by the GS conversations around here are the ones who actually have experience and would be far more valuable to a party at 10k than a 14k guy with no real experience. A 10gs, new to the game, inexperienced player is gonna be just that. They will probably be built wrong, probably die quickly, probably be using powers that they like or believes to be cool instead of powers that are useful for a particular fight.
I could care less who is in my parties for whatever (low GS), everyone has to learn at some point. But to think that 10gs people won't be what most expect out of a 10gs person is kinda foolish. This can be seen frequently in just simple T2s.
Yes.. ..and no. If a player can play their toon and I mean SERIOUSLY know how to play it - maybe. Let me give a healer's perspective. Can they dodge? DO they dodge? Do they freak out? Do they freeze up? Do they still know that sometimes I get stunned and need to watch their own health? Do they come prepared with the right combo of powers + buffs + skill? If so, I would definitely join them. GS is just that.. a gear score, an estimate of your GEAR score, nothing more. Way too many people put a lot of stock into gear score, and a high gear score is more of a trophy wife to stats than ability. Sadly, people forget that. Moving forward... I would say most people want to party with a higher gear score because by then it means the time it SHOULD take to FARM those items should mean that they have spent the TIME learning how to play that character. However, since a lot of players *myself guilty of this* pay to play, that means time has been cut into a fraction and I get bumped up. I have almost a 19K GS. Let's turn the tables, now. I do NOT always play the best, I have a LOT left to learn, and screw people that GS bash. Just say you need a party, and if you get down to the two minute mark - just start making your own party! If no one will party you, their loss - take the chance to learn to solo in tiamat. I don't always have a party - its nice, but isn't necessary, as most players try the zerg tactic anyways. :P
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I never said all low GS players pick the wrong artifacts just as you never said all wallet warriors have no skill.
Low GS does not mean the player has no skills. Low GS merely correlates with bad builds, bad choices of gear. There are plenty of low GS players as well who do the best with what they've got.
A low GS correlates to that? Really...I am more inclined towards ridiculously high GS correlating to that, for the simple reason that a lot of the best feats, abilities and buffs are % based and not GS based, whilst players with ridiculously high GS do things like choose companions that give direct stat buffs rather then % buffs. For example, the CW feat prestidigitation buffs your GS but it is in no way the best feat choice for a CW, or how a cantankerous mage is probably better then a dog, although the dog gives +GS. Another example is before mod 4 the best belt items were in general for classes blue not purple, for the simple reason that the blue belt had an offense slot. This would decrease a players GS in comparison to someone who used a purple belt, but it was probably better. Of coarse, lets not even discuss the people using 2/4 sets to boost their GS, as 2/4 is just inherently wrong.
A low GS correlates to that? Really...I am more inclined towards ridiculously high GS correlating to that, for the simple reason that a lot of the best feats, abilities and buffs are % based and not GS based, whilst players with ridiculously high GS do things like choose companions that give direct stat buffs rather then % buffs. For example, the CW feat prestidigitation buffs your GS but it is in no way the best feat choice for a CW, or how a cantankerous mage is probably better then a dog, although the dog gives +GS. Another example is before mod 4 the best belt items were in general for classes blue not purple, for the simple reason that the blue belt had an offense slot. This would decrease a players GS in comparison to someone who used a purple belt, but it was probably better. Of coarse, lets not even discuss the people using 2/4 sets to boost their GS, as 2/4 is just inherently wrong.
You seem to focus on mistakes that high GS players make and forget who we are comparing them to. 10k GS players who use auroras. 10k GS players who slot in their highest enchantment on the utility slot.
Again, we aren't comparing them to top PVP players who just abuse min-max to perfection. We are comparing them to 10k GS players.
Of course, lets not even discuss the people using 2/4 sets to boost their GS, as 2/4 is just inherently wrong.
I know many people who use 2/4 sets NOT to boost gearscore, but to adjust stats. Ive seen CWs with 4/4 outperform and be outperformed by CWs with 2/4 sets... GFs with 2 +450 def stats tanking more than GFs running a 4 piece set, just because they have less defense, and less diversive stats. Shoot, my girlfriend runs a 20.8k DC with 2/4 sets, and she outperforms DCs (dps or healing) running 4/4 sets...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
the truth is, does high GS=better player? Not necessarily, but it DOES mean a difference in power. Id rather take an 11k gs player who knows what to do in VT, than a 24k gwf that cant survive past VTs first phase though...
I don't think an 11k player should be in Temple of Tiamat. But Ive seen a LOT of 20k+ players doing stupid things in there like fighting on the clerics, not using gems, not focusing on a head, and/or afk'ing by the campfire in the beginning of the fight...
On the other hand, I see more people passing t1 and t2 dungeons to try to do endgame content... Tired of carrying people through VT or MC who have blue armor on...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
the truth is, does high GS=better player? Not necessarily, but it DOES mean a difference in power. Id rather take an 11k gs player who knows what to do in VT, than a 24k gwf that cant survive past VTs first phase though...
I don't think an 11k player should be in Temple of Tiamat. But Ive seen a LOT of 20k+ players doing stupid things in there like fighting on the clerics, not using gems, not focusing on a head, and/or afk'ing by the campfire in the beginning of the fight...
Exactly this. I have an 11k GS DC and I won't be taking her through Tiamat because a) she's too low GS and b) I'm not experienced enough yet playing DC. That fight is hard enough if you're moderately well-geared and know what you're doing.
Low GS doesn't automatically mean you're a bad player, but it DOES mean that you'll have more difficulty performing at the required level for tougher content. Skill can only compensate so much for lower DPS and survivability, especially in a DPS race like Tiamat.
There really is an honest solution to this question. Create an option to make gear score invisible to others, and/or to make your equipped gear invisible as well.
That way, there's nothing for other people to judge in a second, rather, it would be the display of one's skill which would be the arbiter of how "good" or "bad" a player is.
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
There really is an honest solution to this question. Create an option to make gear score invisible to others, and/or to make your equipped gear invisible as well.
That way, there's nothing for other people to judge in a second, rather, it would be the display of one's skill which would be the arbiter of how "good" or "bad" a player is.
I hate to sound pessimistic, but I feel like others would simply assume that you hiding your GS means it's low, and would pass you over for teaming. There may still be some benefit to being able to do this, but I do not think it would solve the problem.
The simple fact is that in order for me to determine if you are a good player, it requires a good deal of time and interaction - this is a good thing in the long run, and in a tight-knit group, but doesn't provide the kind of quick & dirty evaluation that a GS does.
This isn't to say that I *like* the GS system - quite the contrary - but it is *something* to go on - yes, we shouldn't judge a book by it's cover, but sometimes that cover can tell us something about said book...
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
There really is an honest solution to this question. Create an option to make gear score invisible to others, and/or to make your equipped gear invisible as well.
That way, there's nothing for other people to judge in a second, rather, it would be the display of one's skill which would be the arbiter of how "good" or "bad" a player is.
I hate to sound pessimistic, but I feel like others would simply assume that you hiding your GS means it's low, and would pass you over for teaming. There may still be some benefit to being able to do this, but I do not think it would solve the problem.
The simple fact is that in order for me to determine if you are a good player, it requires a good deal of time and interaction - this is a good thing in the long run, and in a tight-knit group, but doesn't provide the kind of quick & dirty evaluation that a GS does.
This isn't to say that I *like* the GS system - quite the contrary - but it is *something* to go on - yes, we shouldn't judge a book by it's cover, but sometimes that cover can tell us something about said book...
I have to agree with Bioshrike here on this. Being able to set it off, or if inspection was removed would fix nothing. There isn't a good fix for this from a technical standpoint as it's a sociology problem not a technical one.
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zekethesinnerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 805Arc User
edited December 2014
I think u guys missed a huge point in this discussion....
Lets see what a player with a bit experience (other games, next toon, helpfull guiild, some frients, asking around) will do after reaching lvl60:
-will have at least 30-50k rAD (if he took it slow, couple days of storyline, firsttimer prolly did, alting one have this kind of manies, i assume that, since he was smart enought to find out he can make an alt)
-will buy purple t2 set for around 34k ad or less ( lets asume he is not gwf/sw aiming for BiS) + some blue jewel and blue non-gemmed shirt/pants +r5 x9
-will get one low-rank arti (making it blue now cost under 50k ad, but nah)
-will farm sharander for first 2 boons in first day after reaching 60
-well need next 11-13 days to get first 3 DR boons (depends if he want or not to try his chances on cwards from weekly chest)
After only this what is stated above he will have at least 13-14k gs, so whole point in considereing what 10k gs scrub can do or not is STUPID. Good player wont stay 10k gs for longer than 1 day, will prolly overjump this cap by 30% just after hiting 60, at least that what player who can think will do. Thats what casual would do, that what expd one would do. What if he stayed 10k? for more than, i dont know, 10 days? well that was much in mod1! Playing 1h day in 10 days he should be able to easy overcome 10k gs cap by those 3-4k gs, If he didnt? well then HE IS A BAD PLAYER.
We can discuss here if 10k player is a bad or good player, coz if he stayed on 10k he is JUST BAD or some kind of overcasual loging in once per week for 20min. R U guis kidding me right now? We can cleary assume, that if player stayed on 10k, and HAVE TIME to going tiamat, instead of imporving his toon, its somthing rly wrong with him.
Question is not, what low gs player is doing in Tiamat's temple, question is, what player with gametime under 100h is doing in WoD? heck, with account gametimer under 500h! (as nolifer my less /played l60 has arcound 300h, my poor, abandoned dc QQ)
I know many people who use 2/4 sets NOT to boost gearscore, but to adjust stats. Ive seen CWs with 4/4 outperform and be outperformed by CWs with 2/4 sets... GFs with 2 +450 def stats tanking more than GFs running a 4 piece set, just because they have less defense, and less diversive stats. Shoot, my girlfriend runs a 20.8k DC with 2/4 sets, and she outperforms DCs (dps or healing) running 4/4 sets...
Ohhhh, and this... r u sure u r not comparing conq gf with 4/4 and prot with 2/4? Coz u know... for gf its acctualy rly hard to fall under 5k defense, and above 5k defense those 450 more does not rly matter... Or maybe u r comparing 20k 2/4 with 14k 4/4? and 20k hp diffrence? Coz what u wrote here can be only explained by cluelessness of one of those gf's, or ur cluelessness...
Tho, cant say much about dc, beside that only usefull 4/4 dc sets r about party debuffing, and 450 powah is always better for ones dps/healing.
From the other site, if 4/4 HV cw was outdpsed by 2/4 cw with same amount of gs, same build, same skills, and none of them was "i run first to hit first and make the highest dps [kill trashes before second cw will even hit them]), then it was somthing rly wrong with this HV 4/4 set (but u didnt said it was HV, it may have been joke-like BI set [FOR THE GLORY OF SATA...GLYPHS!], or even focal magi)
Arguments u state here r pointless, cant be verify in any way by us, and may by manipulated by u, to present ur "right" point of view.
I think u guys missed a huge point in this discussion....
Lets see what a player with a bit experience (other games, next toon, helpfull guiild, some frients, asking around) will do after reaching lvl60:
-will have at least 30-50k rAD (if he took it slow, couple days of storyline, firsttimer prolly did, alting one have this kind of manies, i assume that, since he was smart enought to find out he can make an alt)
-will buy purple t2 set for around 34k ad or less ( lets asume he is not gwf/sw aiming for BiS) + some blue jewel and blue non-gemmed shirt/pants +r5 x9
-will get one low-rank arti (making it blue now cost under 50k ad, but nah)
-will farm sharander for first 2 boons in first day after reaching 60
-well need next 11-13 days to get first 3 DR boons (depends if he want or not to try his chances on cwards from weekly chest)
After only this what is stated above he will have at least 13-14k gs
Um... no. No he won't. This is more-or-less what I did when levelling my DC (I did the DR boons first) and she's sitting at a little over 11k. Unless AD has become a whole lot more plentiful since the launch of Mod 5 I think you're overestimating how much a fresh 60 will have for a start.
Also, GS differs from class to class. Back in the day, my TR hit 60 with a GS under 10k which was much lower than most of my other toons.
My TR has T2 armour, T2 weapon set from CN, all other gear purple except blue gemmed pants and shirt, 2 purple and one blue Artifacts, R6 enchants, Lesser weapon and armour enchant, all DR and Sharandar boons, first three ToD boons. A few other bits and pieces. And her GS is not quite 15k.
I think people are really overestimating how easy it is to get high GS. Diminishing returns kicks in with gear.
Comments
I guess these are some of the points I am trying to make as well in defense of GS
This. Please and Thank You.
It doesn't matter if it's level based or gear score based, snobbery is snobbery and I know many lower geared players more than capable of holding their own in hard fights and many higher geared players unable to hold their own.
Gear only grants potential. Anybody who thinks it anything more isn't worth listening to.
A group comprised only of 10K gear score players might not be able to beat Tiamat but the world (not even the game) runs on the average performers. Sometimes people won't be the best but that doesn't mean they can't do the job.
Seriously the snobbery is unjust. It's an excuse. A scapegoat. Snobbery. Even if you need more than a group of 10K GS players there are plenty of higher geared players as long as they don't get snobby and decide to sit in the base.
As long as people work together they'll be fine. It's the snobbery that gets in the way most times.
Well that and the stupidity of standing on top of the clerics.
For Tiamat, there should be a test: make party of players who have the lowest required GS and try to beat Tiamat. If you are not able to, then Devs need to raise GS requirement. Because, let's face it, this is dps HE and party with players predominantly below 13k GS can happen.
And after your patch strangely I'm not able to score even ONE win whereas before I was able to get quite a bunch of them (with bugged rewards, so no linu for me, but meh). After seeing almost all team on one head doing their best and head HP still draining painfully slow, you can clearly tell it's unfortunate matchup. No one to blame there.
they don't have the right builds... oh yay cookie cutters have set in.
you can get gear from the AH - well unless you want to actually earn it,<tactless comment removed>
and now that the flow of RP from gold sellers is drying up, people are going to see a lot more 'bad' players with low GS, simply because they can't buy a load of cheap refining stones.
some people can do a lot with a little, others can do a little with a lot.
me, I'm a casual player with 14.5k GS it's not maxed out , doesn't even have a weapon enchant.The build could certainly use work, hmm may have a use for the retrain token I found in the bag. I don't play much.
NO way in the world, having listened to the discussions of tactics required,would I queue for that fight. Not without being able to get certain things I have problems with, to cooperate (keyboard hates me)
Well, you should do it at least once, just so you can see and understand the fight. Don't expect to beat it the first time, pretty much nobody does the first time. But that's ok.
This I wholeheartedly agree with.
One thing for people to consider and understand is that this game has lost a number of people in our community because of how toxic the gearsnobs can be. Everything from chastising players for their gearscore or power loadouts, to kicking players who had waited in dungeon/skirmish queues for who knows how long, because it doesn't meet some artificial minimum for the random who got the party crown. Just look at your guild membership and see how many people have logged in recently (if you haven't kicked them for not logging).
If you don't like the group that you are put together with, then leave immediately so someone can fill the spot, don't try to kick them. If their loadout isn't ideal to what you want, then adapt.
While I can't speak for the devs, I can understand why the new zone doesn't have the same requirements of Icewind Dale (which frequently had player hunters who would do nothing but to to ensure that lower GS players could never complete their OpenPvP quests). The point is to be inclusive.
These are real people on the other end. For this game to grow, and hence get better, we need to make everyone feel welcome and facilitate their play rather than alienating them. If this game community declines, then we eventually lose the game. It's that simple.
One more thing: If you recognize that the tiamat fight dps isn't high enough for a 3rd round kill, speak in chat to fight for a 4th round (you can usually squeeze out a 1min 4th round). Sitting on the campfire won't secure a win.
Everybody had to start at one place, so it never means it is a bad player. It just shows a lack of dedication. I mean as soon as you hit 60 you should be having 10k GS by just spending less then 10/20k AD in AH.
That being said. The chances are that a low GS player, has never read a guide, has never tried to optimize his character for what is the correct way instead of what he thinks is right himself, is pretty high.
Also GS in the only indicator we have in this game. The chances are super high that a 20k gs character will do more for a party then a 10k gs character. Just speaking from experience. There are ofc exceptions to the rule, but they are very rare. So i also tend to judge a character by his gear. I dont really look at gearscore because most of my friends are above 20k. But when i join random PvP matches and Tiamat, inspect some people, i judge them by their GS.
This is true. On the other hand, there are people who cannot spend all their time in front of the PC (work, school, family, what have you). Their time should be considered valuable, too. As much as I know that SOME lower GS can do very well, I hate to think yet another half an hour of my in-game time will be wasted because of bad match making (again). I'd be better off if I ditched this whole tiamat HE and focused on normal ones, at least I'd get my linu's favour faster! Is that the point?
My opinion is very complex.
Firtly, GS has nothing to do with skill. This applies especially to money warriors. How many times have we all done a dungeon or a PVP match, where a high GS was a big zero. Credit card can open the way up easily, but it won't grant any skills.
Here i think, the worst thing was- ok good for the company money wise- to release the campaign tokens. Before these were introduced to the game, even the laziest and non skilled player had to acquire some sorts of skill, simply by doing the dailies. This was a good training ground!
Secondly, builds can differ very much and GS means nothing again. Saw today a CW in full BI Purified gear, everything defense, he had very low power and nearly zero crit and arm pen. His GS was very decent, but everything defense and HP. Would you invite such a CW to do the dirty work? I wouldn't.
Here we come to the biggest mistake i think the Devs made with Mod 4 and now 5. Namely the game has changed to an all PVP style. When last year i made my first toons i knew clearly, if i wish a PVE a PVP or a hybrid char. Nowadays the line has moved from PVE to PVPish maps.
What do i mean? Well if you take a look at your party members at- for example- eSoT , the ones who have a good chance to survive the high damage spikes are mostly the high HP pool chars.
I have more the feeling, when i enter a new map or dungeon, that the primary stats are useless now and only HP and more HP matters. Cause it doesn't matter how big damage a classic PVE CW can do, she will fall sooner or later without a ton of HP. The same goes for every class.
When i make a guild run, i see that the "best" player is our mate, who has the most HP. She plays a HR and in old school PVE terms she should fail, her DEX is lower, then the attic. BUT in this new style, she rocks. I personally as an old school DnD player find this very odd.
The game design has failed in my eyes with Mod 4 and 5. Before them we would have laughed at a CW coming to a dungeon with a 20 INT. Now with gear score opened up and dungeons and skirmishes demanding ONLY HP, these odd builds are more common, then ever before.
So my advise would be to the Devs to bring back old school PVE dungeons, like the currently ghost house like T1 and T2 dungeons are.
Thirdly, Community management or the Devs should do something about this new snob style or elitist HAMSTER, that is spreading like a virus over the game.
When players get kicked out of a dungeon, cause they don't have a perfect vorpal or 18k+ Gs, than the integrity of the game is falling apart and we can't talk anymore about a group based game.
Just an example, was standing before Tiamat's temple and a famous PVP guild was mocking us, me too, cause i had "only" 17,7 k GS.
This humiliation ruined my fun and i had to log off for hours.
These players should be warned or even sanctioned by Admins! Cause whenever i have reported such a manor, sadly nothing has been done. My most disgusting experience was, when a player spitted on us, yes and i still see him running around, shame...
Fourthly, if i may give an advise to Devs, make all classes equal in GS terms. What i mean is my GWF has the same boons and is higher by more than 2k, then my evenly geared CW. If now Devs would bring them both to the same level, we would have less of these discussions about GS. and i find it very unfair for a CW player or any other non fighter class to have lower GS, while being able to do the same or even more for the success of a party.
Fifthly, i hope everybody of us has a mirror at home and with a bit of common sense, really doesn't go in green and blue to a end game dungeon or PVP. This little self restraint should be there. If you enter a high end game with 10k GS, you will ruin fun for your party, for sure. On the opposite, people who demand only 18 or 20K+ GS should also go and buy a mirror and take a deep look at it.
My advise to my fellow players would be, do first the campaigns in their order, than go to Tiamat. You still can find nice and appropriate dungeons and skirmishes for your GS brackets.
Mind you i think Devs should change those very low requirements for dungeons, that is very optimistically calculated. We don't have to take Tiamat as an example, ToS is a very good one here. I have never seen a full 8k party, except a TR to do ToS successfully. Sure other players can carry you, but it is not optimal.
Thank you for your time!
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
Ok by mod2 having a set of T2s R6s and an artifact meant you had run some T2 dungeons because it was expensive to buy T2. Probably with the income from running those T2s you were moving to R7s. This process should have resulted in some comptancy at playing your class. By mod3 basic competance would result in 3 artifacts (2 if you only have one toon) and around the same loadout.
Right now? T2 is dirt cheap. With the earnings of running normal content to 60 one can easilly have T2s and R6s, A week or so in shara and Dread means you can IWD so you have some boons and 2-3 artifacts. You also have access to Tiamat so might have an arti weapon as well. So the example of 10K GS is rare and ultimately meaningless. At this point 14K (about where a toon lands If I played it enough to understand it and did not spend AD on it) is so easy to hit that GS does not tell you anything. 20K+ means either that the person plays a lot or that they don't mind paying cash to gear up. It can be either one. There is no way to tell unless you know them. So no, really. At this point GS is not indicative of much of anything.
But a bad player doing nothing in the fights are always bad nomatter what GS they have.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
So, if we are talking 10gs, new to the game player (not alt), how much will they even know about the skills they HAVE to rely on?
If we are talking alts, an experienced person driving that 10 gs toon around, how strong are the tools at that person's disposal with a 10k toon that is built correctly?
Sure, there are different abilities that can make any class valuable in a certain way but how much DPS does a DPS class have available to contribute when their GS is 10k? 10k isn't a lot for stat allocation.
Seems that most who are offended by the GS conversations around here are the ones who actually have experience and would be far more valuable to a party at 10k than a 14k guy with no real experience. A 10gs, new to the game, inexperienced player is gonna be just that. They will probably be built wrong, probably die quickly, probably be using powers that they like or believes to be cool instead of powers that are useful for a particular fight.
I could care less who is in my parties for whatever (low GS), everyone has to learn at some point. But to think that 10gs people won't be what most expect out of a 10gs person is kinda foolish. This can be seen frequently in just simple T2s.
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A low GS correlates to that? Really...I am more inclined towards ridiculously high GS correlating to that, for the simple reason that a lot of the best feats, abilities and buffs are % based and not GS based, whilst players with ridiculously high GS do things like choose companions that give direct stat buffs rather then % buffs. For example, the CW feat prestidigitation buffs your GS but it is in no way the best feat choice for a CW, or how a cantankerous mage is probably better then a dog, although the dog gives +GS. Another example is before mod 4 the best belt items were in general for classes blue not purple, for the simple reason that the blue belt had an offense slot. This would decrease a players GS in comparison to someone who used a purple belt, but it was probably better. Of coarse, lets not even discuss the people using 2/4 sets to boost their GS, as 2/4 is just inherently wrong.
You seem to focus on mistakes that high GS players make and forget who we are comparing them to. 10k GS players who use auroras. 10k GS players who slot in their highest enchantment on the utility slot.
Again, we aren't comparing them to top PVP players who just abuse min-max to perfection. We are comparing them to 10k GS players.
I know many people who use 2/4 sets NOT to boost gearscore, but to adjust stats. Ive seen CWs with 4/4 outperform and be outperformed by CWs with 2/4 sets... GFs with 2 +450 def stats tanking more than GFs running a 4 piece set, just because they have less defense, and less diversive stats. Shoot, my girlfriend runs a 20.8k DC with 2/4 sets, and she outperforms DCs (dps or healing) running 4/4 sets...
I don't think an 11k player should be in Temple of Tiamat. But Ive seen a LOT of 20k+ players doing stupid things in there like fighting on the clerics, not using gems, not focusing on a head, and/or afk'ing by the campfire in the beginning of the fight...
On the other hand, I see more people passing t1 and t2 dungeons to try to do endgame content... Tired of carrying people through VT or MC who have blue armor on...
Low GS doesn't automatically mean you're a bad player, but it DOES mean that you'll have more difficulty performing at the required level for tougher content. Skill can only compensate so much for lower DPS and survivability, especially in a DPS race like Tiamat.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
That way, there's nothing for other people to judge in a second, rather, it would be the display of one's skill which would be the arbiter of how "good" or "bad" a player is.
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I hate to sound pessimistic, but I feel like others would simply assume that you hiding your GS means it's low, and would pass you over for teaming. There may still be some benefit to being able to do this, but I do not think it would solve the problem.
The simple fact is that in order for me to determine if you are a good player, it requires a good deal of time and interaction - this is a good thing in the long run, and in a tight-knit group, but doesn't provide the kind of quick & dirty evaluation that a GS does.
This isn't to say that I *like* the GS system - quite the contrary - but it is *something* to go on - yes, we shouldn't judge a book by it's cover, but sometimes that cover can tell us something about said book...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Lets see what a player with a bit experience (other games, next toon, helpfull guiild, some frients, asking around) will do after reaching lvl60:
-will have at least 30-50k rAD (if he took it slow, couple days of storyline, firsttimer prolly did, alting one have this kind of manies, i assume that, since he was smart enought to find out he can make an alt)
-will buy purple t2 set for around 34k ad or less ( lets asume he is not gwf/sw aiming for BiS) + some blue jewel and blue non-gemmed shirt/pants +r5 x9
-will get one low-rank arti (making it blue now cost under 50k ad, but nah)
-will farm sharander for first 2 boons in first day after reaching 60
-well need next 11-13 days to get first 3 DR boons (depends if he want or not to try his chances on cwards from weekly chest)
After only this what is stated above he will have at least 13-14k gs, so whole point in considereing what 10k gs scrub can do or not is STUPID. Good player wont stay 10k gs for longer than 1 day, will prolly overjump this cap by 30% just after hiting 60, at least that what player who can think will do. Thats what casual would do, that what expd one would do. What if he stayed 10k? for more than, i dont know, 10 days? well that was much in mod1! Playing 1h day in 10 days he should be able to easy overcome 10k gs cap by those 3-4k gs, If he didnt? well then HE IS A BAD PLAYER.
We can discuss here if 10k player is a bad or good player, coz if he stayed on 10k he is JUST BAD or some kind of overcasual loging in once per week for 20min. R U guis kidding me right now? We can cleary assume, that if player stayed on 10k, and HAVE TIME to going tiamat, instead of imporving his toon, its somthing rly wrong with him.
Question is not, what low gs player is doing in Tiamat's temple, question is, what player with gametime under 100h is doing in WoD? heck, with account gametimer under 500h! (as nolifer my less /played l60 has arcound 300h, my poor, abandoned dc QQ)
Ohhhh, and this... r u sure u r not comparing conq gf with 4/4 and prot with 2/4? Coz u know... for gf its acctualy rly hard to fall under 5k defense, and above 5k defense those 450 more does not rly matter... Or maybe u r comparing 20k 2/4 with 14k 4/4? and 20k hp diffrence? Coz what u wrote here can be only explained by cluelessness of one of those gf's, or ur cluelessness...
Tho, cant say much about dc, beside that only usefull 4/4 dc sets r about party debuffing, and 450 powah is always better for ones dps/healing.
From the other site, if 4/4 HV cw was outdpsed by 2/4 cw with same amount of gs, same build, same skills, and none of them was "i run first to hit first and make the highest dps [kill trashes before second cw will even hit them]), then it was somthing rly wrong with this HV 4/4 set (but u didnt said it was HV, it may have been joke-like BI set [FOR THE GLORY OF SATA...GLYPHS!], or even focal magi)
Arguments u state here r pointless, cant be verify in any way by us, and may by manipulated by u, to present ur "right" point of view.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
Also, GS differs from class to class. Back in the day, my TR hit 60 with a GS under 10k which was much lower than most of my other toons.
My TR has T2 armour, T2 weapon set from CN, all other gear purple except blue gemmed pants and shirt, 2 purple and one blue Artifacts, R6 enchants, Lesser weapon and armour enchant, all DR and Sharandar boons, first three ToD boons. A few other bits and pieces. And her GS is not quite 15k.
I think people are really overestimating how easy it is to get high GS. Diminishing returns kicks in with gear.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder