Every single class in the game x5 can easily beat all content in this game with current gear levels.
GWF groups who know what Lifesteal is can easily solo any content.
3 of any single class at top gear can solo any content (excluding tiamat/and maybe mc/vt due to holds/coffins - if they cant beat the timer)
Pure DPS DCs in top gear can about go toe to toe with a Thaum CW is dps.
Really good GWFs in top gear (of which there are extremely few) can go toe to toe with a Thaum CW in dps.
SWs can blow CWs out of the water in DPS in a lot of fights.
Whats all the complaining in this thread about? Rene is a little crazy right now, but in such a good way...and guess what it brings back some group DPS that EVERYONE IN THE PARTY lost when all the debuffs got stripped from the Thaum tree.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited December 2014
It happens in all games. Once content becomes trivial, classes that can put out the most AOE damage shine. Every single MMO has this happen.
When you're taking toons through content with literally 2 to 3 times the required GS, it's going to be easy.
And even then, while CW's may be the most offensive minded class, they have by far the worst defenses. Even the toughest CW is still going to be squishier that most other classes. Of course, this only becomes obvious when you have content that challenges the gear level of a CW.
Otherwise you're just going to see CW's tap dancing through PvE content like a lightning tossing Bing Crosby.
cw is a historical problem of the game. and, being the model of efficiency, the devs proceeded wrong to level the classes before reducing this model (cut the damage in half during m2 before giving bleed for gwf / launch hr).
I hate the fact that this class be a "guaranteed investment", which other classes are "fixed" before the cw, but ...
objectively speaking it is preferable to structure the inferior classes and, from this, reallocate / cut functions of other classes currently broken "cooking the crab in the pot."
"reworks"/big nerfs need stop. as a said a person in another thread, you can not play a game where you have fear that next week a 'balance change "will destroy your class. is not historically fair, but it is the correct now.
ps: this game have a low gear requirement. relativize the difference between classes because any 16k party does all the content satisfactorily, dont make sense.
ps2:You have 5K lower DPS than a "newb CW who was using shield instead of 4th damage spell for more damage".
Really? There are many threads which have already stated reasons why you are welcome to read but I will summarize with this. No other class renders the rest obsolete with the scope of overpowering capability than the CW. None. Best damaging...
Let me stop you here. People need to move on from this "CW's do the most damage" nonsense. It is flatly not true.
I do a lot of parsing, a lot of investigation into game mechanics, a lot of experimentation with different builds and it is not at all the case that CW's are the highest damaging class. Not anymore. That ended with the introduction of the Scourge Warlock and the recent changes to the TR.
I have a 22k CW with 10.5k power, 3.3k crit, a Perfect Vorpal enchantment, and epic gear everywhere a character can have epic gear. In a typical Tiamat run I will do between 22k and 32k DPS. Where on that spectrum I fall really depends on how much time is spent running between heads and whether or not people are pushing enemies out of my kill zone.
However, I have encountered more than a few people who can beat me in damage by a healthy margin. I have a parse in front of me where I did 22k DPS and a TR in the same instance did 38k DPS (that one lasted less than 10 minutes so there was less add-time and more time spent nuking the heads, where a TR can really shine). I have another parse in front of me where, in a failed Tiamat run, I did 28.5 million damage at 24k DPS and a SW did 40.4 million damage at 34.4k DPS.
I have a TR that I just picked up for the first time since Mod 2. He has a 14.5k GS and no boons from Icewind Dale or Tyranny of Dragons. The only gear he has equipped is stuff I bought off the AH for less than 10k AD (though I did send him a GPF enchant). Even he can do 18k DPS in Tiamat.
There's just no way a CW can match the damage a properly built and well played TR or SW can pump out in Mod 5. Assertions to the contrary are either antiquated or just uninformed.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Let me stop you here. People need to move on from this "CW's do the most damage" nonsense. It is flatly not true.
I do a lot of parsing, a lot of investigation into game mechanics, a lot of experimentation with different builds and it is not at all the case that CW's are the highest damaging class. Not anymore. That ended with the introduction of the Scourge Warlock and the recent changes to the TR.
I have a 22k CW with 10.5k power, 3.3k crit, a Perfect Vorpal enchantment, and epic gear everywhere a character can have epic gear. In a typical Tiamat run I will do between 22k and 32k DPS. Where on that spectrum I fall really depends on how much time is spent running between heads and whether or not people are pushing enemies out of my kill zone.
However, I have encountered more than a few people who can beat me in damage by a healthy margin. I have a parse in front of me where I did 22k DPS and a TR in the same instance did 38k DPS (that one lasted less than 10 minutes so there was less add-time and more time spent nuking the heads, where a TR can really shine). I have another parse in front of me where, in a failed Tiamat run, I did 28.5 million damage at 24k DPS and a SW did 40.4 million damage at 34.4k DPS.
I have a TR that I just picked up for the first time since Mod 2. He has a 14.5k GS and no boons from Icewind Dale or Tyranny of Dragons. The only gear he has equipped is stuff I bought off the AH for less than 10k AD (though I did send him a GPF enchant). Even he can do 18k DPS in Tiamat.
There's just no way a CW can match the damage a properly built and well played TR or SW can pump out in Mod 5. Assertions to the contrary are either antiquated or just uninformed.
Let me stop you here. People need to move on from this "CW's do the most damage" nonsense. It is flatly not true.
I do a lot of parsing, a lot of investigation into game mechanics, a lot of experimentation with different builds and it is not at all the case that CW's are the highest damaging class. Not anymore. That ended with the introduction of the Scourge Warlock and the recent changes to the TR.
I have a 22k CW with 10.5k power, 3.3k crit, a Perfect Vorpal enchantment, and epic gear everywhere a character can have epic gear. In a typical Tiamat run I will do between 22k and 32k DPS. Where on that spectrum I fall really depends on how much time is spent running between heads and whether or not people are pushing enemies out of my kill zone.
However, I have encountered more than a few people who can beat me in damage by a healthy margin. I have a parse in front of me where I did 22k DPS and a TR in the same instance did 38k DPS (that one lasted less than 10 minutes so there was less add-time and more time spent nuking the heads, where a TR can really shine). I have another parse in front of me where, in a failed Tiamat run, I did 28.5 million damage at 24k DPS and a SW did 40.4 million damage at 34.4k DPS.
I have a TR that I just picked up for the first time since Mod 2. He has a 14.5k GS and no boons from Icewind Dale or Tyranny of Dragons. The only gear he has equipped is stuff I bought off the AH for less than 10k AD (though I did send him a GPF enchant). Even he can do 18k DPS in Tiamat.
There's just no way a CW can match the damage a properly built and well played TR or SW can pump out in Mod 5. Assertions to the contrary are either antiquated or just uninformed.
Not really an agree disagree thing. He's saying that the numbers say that CW's aren't on top anymore. Considering my SW can beat an equally geared CW.........
0
darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,261Arc User
edited December 2014
Abaddon is right. Anyone who understand the mechanics of the game knows that CWs damage is just an illusion masked by the large number of ads. The true DPS (yes DPS, not paingiver) is in other classes (meet a good SW, TR). And keep in mind that the number of good or very good CWs is much higher the number of good SWs or TRs (talking about PvE)
This said, CWs are the best package in one class due to 5 things:
- Unlimited target spells: Oppressive force, Icy terrain
- Control spells
- High vizier debuff
- Renegade team buff
- Very good dmg
And still the "CWs are GODS" is not true. ANY CLASS is a GOD when we outgear the content by the double of the GS required.
But you are approaching the problem from the wrong view. The problem is not CWs or other classes. The current problem of all this feelings (despite that we outgear any content) is LIFESTEAL mechanics. When we didnt use lifesteal at the start of the game (was a rare stat, and we were low GS), the feelings and group play was totally different.
Lifesteal must be reworked to not be an INSTANT HEAL that favor DPS classes. I dont know what should be the best implementation, but I am sure that is far from what we have now. Until lifesteal is not reworked (and I think Cryptic is aware of this problem), we will have threads like this, because lifesteal is the #1 survability tool of CWs and has a high impact in his DPS and in the actual party composition.
The entire game mechanic is affected by lifesteal, even the release of new classes. Once they fix lifesteal, GFs will no more need that insane buffs to be useful in groups, and they can put the buffs into other classes like bards, clerics, or even warlords or paladins.
1 - other classes do more damage than the cw not change the fact that the cw does much more damage than it should considering what he can do for the party and for yourself. and it is for this reason that these classes "destroyed" pve even in low gear.
2 - If you reduce the efficiency of lifesteal, other classes not resist one seconds in combat. If "balance the cw" is the total annihilation of other classes, then obviously the cw is much more powerful than it should be.
BUT the "problem" between life steal X CW is the fact that you shot a encounter and "run". the encounter, independent of you, will be acting in the form of dps-control, taking care of your lifesteal and slowing opponents. again, is a problem of cw (powers/class features)+ particular type of damage.
in other hands, for cws, lifestal works like a big regeneration ready to fill your hp IF you need.
3 - only to reinforce. the performance of a 304968409k player are not reference for anything in pve. this excess gear is mere personal vanity. this game need legendary dungeons, epic foundrys to play solo, etc. is another problem.
recycle the old and obsolete content through nerfs / reworks in lifesteal is absurd.
3 - only to reinforce. the performance of a 304968409k player are not reference for anything in pve. this excess gear is mere personal vanity. this game need legendary dungeons, epic foundrys to play solo, etc. is another problem.
Except when the behavior you complain about is not possible without that high gear score that you complain about.
0
darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,261Arc User
2 - If you reduce the efficiency of lifesteal, other classes not resist one seconds in combat. If "balance the cw" is the total annihilation of other classes, then obviously the cw is much more powerful than it should be.
What class is more squishy than a CW? Are you serious? If you remove Lifesteal from the game, the CWs are the most affected. Other classes have self-heals and other tools to stay alive. And every class has DoT powers that heals them while they do other things.
Lifesteal change will happen even if you dont like it, devs already told that. Good players will adapt. Bad players will complain as allways. Ofcourse it will take time because this change will carry many other changes and a total revision of PvP. Maybe we wont see it until mod 7 who knows.
Thanks to actual lifesteal, CWs can solo CN and other things they shouldn't, I am sure other classes can do it too. If you change the lifesteal mechanic, lots of things will change. This is Dungeons and Dragons, dungeons are suposed to be explored in groups, with each class complementing each other. And thanks to lifesteal CWs (and other DPS classes also) dont need Healers or Tanks. DCs are allways welcome because the debuffs and GFs were useless until they gave them insane party buffs. But this is just a patch and is a problem to release new class-mechanics and new features, because the only thing that matters is DPS because lifesteal keeps everyone alive.
Look the templar set of CW, as an example. It is trash. Why? It doesnt give you more DPS, nor to your team. It doesnt help to make things faster because we have lifesteal. Now think that lifesteal doesnt exist or it works different. Maybe you consider it as an option for the team.
Of course we also need harder content, but thats another history....
Im so sick of everyone complaining about cws damage when they are really only taking about pvp, no one is upset with the cws pve damage. everyone who played d&d back in the day knows that pvp was NEVER part of the game.
That being said i do belive some classes need a small bost in pve damage ie the gwf (should be a bosss killer) hr (should not be a tr clone but a ranged dps)
First point in practice, individually (party is worse), speak about pve, offtank, cc, range is "illusion" to define a "squishy class".
What is important in the case of DPS is the average of:
How long am I able to fight, actively, against a number x of dangerous enemies.
X
How long do I have to keep fighting against this enemies.
The average of this is very subjective ... but, historically, the cw is not the most "squishy" in pve. during m1;m2;m3 cw is better for the defend a party than gf and have much more damage. who care if have the lowest defence?
That being said, for example, a destroyer / instigator without lifesteal are dead. I'll explain why:
First, in the case of "dot", as I have explained, the life steal works as "reserve". You shot the attack, and the active damage steal hp IF necessary, even if you run to the combat.
In the case of a melee burst like destroyer, you need to "Off tank" the opponent "100% of the time" to cause damage, which implies that the life steal for him works as an average between the damage taken and hp steal... 100% of the time, even in red zones. if i receive a BIG damage, i need run, run=0 dps, 0dps=0 life steal.
again, cw have low defence if you compare to gwf BUT have cc/range/dodge and active damage stealing hp even if you "run" to the red zones.
but the MOST IMPORTANT about life steal and cw balance is: even if iam wrong, change things can destroy the game. no more reworks or big changes. BUT, again, sw is not a alibi to the historical advantage of cw. and nobody can deny this.
0
darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,261Arc User
In the case of a melee burst like destroyer, you need to "Off tank" the opponent "100% of the time" to cause damage, which implies that the life steal for him works as an average between the damage taken and hp steal... 100% of the time, even against in red zones. if i receive a BIG damage, i need run, run=0 dps, 0dps=0 life steal.
again, cw have low defence if you compare to gwf BUT have cc/range and active damage stealing hp even if you "run" to the red zones.
Of course, if you read my post, I said that lifesteal change will carry lots of changes to balance all the things, in all the classes, and also items, and other things, including your Destroyer. Thats why is a VERY HARD change and must be done carefully.
And btw, if a CW plays at range he is 30%-40% less effective, so I wont take that in consideration.
Ofcourse, if you read my post, I said that lifesteal change will carry lots of changes, in all the classes, and also items, and other things, including your Destroyer.
And btw, if a CW plays at range he is 30%-40% less effective, so I wont take that in consideration.
1 - for destroyer changes: but the MOST IMPORTANT about life steal and cw balance is: even if iam wrong, change things can destroy the game. no more reworks or big changes.
that include gwf be more powerfull than the necessary. will happen... you know the rules of "balance"...
2 - for the range thing: iam not speak about be out of the combat freeze everthing. iam speak about DONT NEED off tank. only receive some feel damages and avoid the big part of this.
For damage comparison, did you use Paingiver as a reference?
CW are good at Crowd Control and the best way to control a mob is too kill it. But at the same time, CW aren't that good at boss killing. Especially when there isn't a lot of add.
But I prefer the game as it is know without any meter than with it.
Finally, as a returning player from M3, the whole balance is way better than in IWD.
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beatannierMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 692Arc User
It`s not about aoe or st, but about how long we fight with foe.
I'm sorry but you still really don't have ST damage which is what boss killing means. Go up against a SW or TR that's built for pve damage and you'll see what I mean. MoF or SS, CW's are not boss killers, they are add killers.
Where did anyone say that? It's not a matter of sitting out of st fights but knowing your strengths, and knowing that paingiver is a meaningless score. A tr or sw will destroy cw st damage, however some people see the paingiver and think that cw's are just top dps in every situation because of it.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited January 2015
And to that point, the paingiver says nothing about DPS, only total damage done.
People think it's the same thing. :rolleyes:
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
0
aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
Comments
GWF groups who know what Lifesteal is can easily solo any content.
3 of any single class at top gear can solo any content (excluding tiamat/and maybe mc/vt due to holds/coffins - if they cant beat the timer)
Pure DPS DCs in top gear can about go toe to toe with a Thaum CW is dps.
Really good GWFs in top gear (of which there are extremely few) can go toe to toe with a Thaum CW in dps.
SWs can blow CWs out of the water in DPS in a lot of fights.
Whats all the complaining in this thread about? Rene is a little crazy right now, but in such a good way...and guess what it brings back some group DPS that EVERYONE IN THE PARTY lost when all the debuffs got stripped from the Thaum tree.
When you're taking toons through content with literally 2 to 3 times the required GS, it's going to be easy.
And even then, while CW's may be the most offensive minded class, they have by far the worst defenses. Even the toughest CW is still going to be squishier that most other classes. Of course, this only becomes obvious when you have content that challenges the gear level of a CW.
Otherwise you're just going to see CW's tap dancing through PvE content like a lightning tossing Bing Crosby.
I hate the fact that this class be a "guaranteed investment", which other classes are "fixed" before the cw, but ...
objectively speaking it is preferable to structure the inferior classes and, from this, reallocate / cut functions of other classes currently broken "cooking the crab in the pot."
"reworks"/big nerfs need stop. as a said a person in another thread, you can not play a game where you have fear that next week a 'balance change "will destroy your class. is not historically fair, but it is the correct now.
ps: this game have a low gear requirement. relativize the difference between classes because any 16k party does all the content satisfactorily, dont make sense.
ps2:You have 5K lower DPS than a "newb CW who was using shield instead of 4th damage spell for more damage".
Spare me the excuses.
huehuehueheu. the folcloric cw elitism...
Let me stop you here. People need to move on from this "CW's do the most damage" nonsense. It is flatly not true.
I do a lot of parsing, a lot of investigation into game mechanics, a lot of experimentation with different builds and it is not at all the case that CW's are the highest damaging class. Not anymore. That ended with the introduction of the Scourge Warlock and the recent changes to the TR.
I have a 22k CW with 10.5k power, 3.3k crit, a Perfect Vorpal enchantment, and epic gear everywhere a character can have epic gear. In a typical Tiamat run I will do between 22k and 32k DPS. Where on that spectrum I fall really depends on how much time is spent running between heads and whether or not people are pushing enemies out of my kill zone.
However, I have encountered more than a few people who can beat me in damage by a healthy margin. I have a parse in front of me where I did 22k DPS and a TR in the same instance did 38k DPS (that one lasted less than 10 minutes so there was less add-time and more time spent nuking the heads, where a TR can really shine). I have another parse in front of me where, in a failed Tiamat run, I did 28.5 million damage at 24k DPS and a SW did 40.4 million damage at 34.4k DPS.
I have a TR that I just picked up for the first time since Mod 2. He has a 14.5k GS and no boons from Icewind Dale or Tyranny of Dragons. The only gear he has equipped is stuff I bought off the AH for less than 10k AD (though I did send him a GPF enchant). Even he can do 18k DPS in Tiamat.
There's just no way a CW can match the damage a properly built and well played TR or SW can pump out in Mod 5. Assertions to the contrary are either antiquated or just uninformed.
Agreed. /10 chars.
Disagreed.
Not really an agree disagree thing. He's saying that the numbers say that CW's aren't on top anymore. Considering my SW can beat an equally geared CW.........
This said, CWs are the best package in one class due to 5 things:
- Unlimited target spells: Oppressive force, Icy terrain
- Control spells
- High vizier debuff
- Renegade team buff
- Very good dmg
And still the "CWs are GODS" is not true. ANY CLASS is a GOD when we outgear the content by the double of the GS required.
But you are approaching the problem from the wrong view. The problem is not CWs or other classes. The current problem of all this feelings (despite that we outgear any content) is LIFESTEAL mechanics. When we didnt use lifesteal at the start of the game (was a rare stat, and we were low GS), the feelings and group play was totally different.
Lifesteal must be reworked to not be an INSTANT HEAL that favor DPS classes. I dont know what should be the best implementation, but I am sure that is far from what we have now. Until lifesteal is not reworked (and I think Cryptic is aware of this problem), we will have threads like this, because lifesteal is the #1 survability tool of CWs and has a high impact in his DPS and in the actual party composition.
The entire game mechanic is affected by lifesteal, even the release of new classes. Once they fix lifesteal, GFs will no more need that insane buffs to be useful in groups, and they can put the buffs into other classes like bards, clerics, or even warlords or paladins.
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2 - If you reduce the efficiency of lifesteal, other classes not resist one seconds in combat. If "balance the cw" is the total annihilation of other classes, then obviously the cw is much more powerful than it should be.
BUT the "problem" between life steal X CW is the fact that you shot a encounter and "run". the encounter, independent of you, will be acting in the form of dps-control, taking care of your lifesteal and slowing opponents. again, is a problem of cw (powers/class features)+ particular type of damage.
in other hands, for cws, lifestal works like a big regeneration ready to fill your hp IF you need.
3 - only to reinforce. the performance of a 304968409k player are not reference for anything in pve. this excess gear is mere personal vanity. this game need legendary dungeons, epic foundrys to play solo, etc. is another problem.
recycle the old and obsolete content through nerfs / reworks in lifesteal is absurd.
Except when the behavior you complain about is not possible without that high gear score that you complain about.
Lifesteal change will happen even if you dont like it, devs already told that. Good players will adapt. Bad players will complain as allways. Ofcourse it will take time because this change will carry many other changes and a total revision of PvP. Maybe we wont see it until mod 7 who knows.
Thanks to actual lifesteal, CWs can solo CN and other things they shouldn't, I am sure other classes can do it too. If you change the lifesteal mechanic, lots of things will change. This is Dungeons and Dragons, dungeons are suposed to be explored in groups, with each class complementing each other. And thanks to lifesteal CWs (and other DPS classes also) dont need Healers or Tanks. DCs are allways welcome because the debuffs and GFs were useless until they gave them insane party buffs. But this is just a patch and is a problem to release new class-mechanics and new features, because the only thing that matters is DPS because lifesteal keeps everyone alive.
Look the templar set of CW, as an example. It is trash. Why? It doesnt give you more DPS, nor to your team. It doesnt help to make things faster because we have lifesteal. Now think that lifesteal doesnt exist or it works different. Maybe you consider it as an option for the team.
Of course we also need harder content, but thats another history....
Caturday Survivor
Elemental Evil Survivor
Undermontain Survivor
Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
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That being said i do belive some classes need a small bost in pve damage ie the gwf (should be a bosss killer) hr (should not be a tr clone but a ranged dps)
First point in practice, individually (party is worse), speak about pve, offtank, cc, range is "illusion" to define a "squishy class".
What is important in the case of DPS is the average of:
How long am I able to fight, actively, against a number x of dangerous enemies.
X
How long do I have to keep fighting against this enemies.
The average of this is very subjective ... but, historically, the cw is not the most "squishy" in pve. during m1;m2;m3 cw is better for the defend a party than gf and have much more damage. who care if have the lowest defence?
That being said, for example, a destroyer / instigator without lifesteal are dead. I'll explain why:
First, in the case of "dot", as I have explained, the life steal works as "reserve". You shot the attack, and the active damage steal hp IF necessary, even if you run to the combat.
In the case of a melee burst like destroyer, you need to "Off tank" the opponent "100% of the time" to cause damage, which implies that the life steal for him works as an average between the damage taken and hp steal... 100% of the time, even in red zones. if i receive a BIG damage, i need run, run=0 dps, 0dps=0 life steal.
again, cw have low defence if you compare to gwf BUT have cc/range/dodge and active damage stealing hp even if you "run" to the red zones.
but the MOST IMPORTANT about life steal and cw balance is: even if iam wrong, change things can destroy the game. no more reworks or big changes. BUT, again, sw is not a alibi to the historical advantage of cw. and nobody can deny this.
Of course, if you read my post, I said that lifesteal change will carry lots of changes to balance all the things, in all the classes, and also items, and other things, including your Destroyer. Thats why is a VERY HARD change and must be done carefully.
And btw, if a CW plays at range he is 30%-40% less effective, so I wont take that in consideration.
Caturday Survivor
Elemental Evil Survivor
Undermontain Survivor
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1 - for destroyer changes: but the MOST IMPORTANT about life steal and cw balance is: even if iam wrong, change things can destroy the game. no more reworks or big changes.
that include gwf be more powerfull than the necessary. will happen... you know the rules of "balance"...
2 - for the range thing: iam not speak about be out of the combat freeze everthing. iam speak about DONT NEED off tank. only receive some feel damages and avoid the big part of this.
CW are good at Crowd Control and the best way to control a mob is too kill it. But at the same time, CW aren't that good at boss killing. Especially when there isn't a lot of add.
But I prefer the game as it is know without any meter than with it.
Finally, as a returning player from M3, the whole balance is way better than in IWD.
MoF doesn't have anything that suddenly gives them spectacular st damage. MoF is still aoe damage.
I'm sorry but you still really don't have ST damage which is what boss killing means. Go up against a SW or TR that's built for pve damage and you'll see what I mean. MoF or SS, CW's are not boss killers, they are add killers.
Where did anyone say that? It's not a matter of sitting out of st fights but knowing your strengths, and knowing that paingiver is a meaningless score. A tr or sw will destroy cw st damage, however some people see the paingiver and think that cw's are just top dps in every situation because of it.
People think it's the same thing. :rolleyes:
The post above me.
No, that may be what you read, but they're saying you aren't a striker class but an aoe controller class.