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Insane Gearscore Elitism

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    clericalistclericalist Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 595 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I just hope to get all my linus favours before they create a party system and thus will get kicked for having a low gs.

    Regarding the HP, for the the question if it stacks, no it does not, so two clerics with HP is not good. Regarding the HP and its use in Tiamat, here is some rough maths (and I most certainly stand under correction here). Assuming there are 24 others zerging a dragon head, and a with 30% extra damage which about 5000 extra power, that equates to 24 * 5000 = 120 000 power you add ! Next time an elitist wags his finger at you, just tell him "I am bringing over 100 000 power to Tiamat, what do you have to offer ?"
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    avengingangel93avengingangel93 Member Posts: 192 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    emilemo wrote: »
    Well you are right..but again in general. And 'general' has a habit of not applying to everyone. I'll speak for myself, if I log in tonight after work, after gym, after shower, after dinner, after social life I have no more than an hour-hour and a half to play. Tiamat is once per hour. In that short window I cant be looking for the exceptions, Im looking for a win in hope of gettin' the offhand in time for double RP. And it doesnt matter if I like it or not but joining a "secret 20k zerg" has proven to be my best chance of securing a win. Some of us just dont have the time to try and fail and not care, even if I end up in a room full of high GS tools who mess up the cleric phase these same tools burn dragon HP fast and get the job done. Its not pretty and it maybe be morally flawed but its all I got since the devs wont allow me to queue with 25 people from my guild.

    It should be a /tad/ better after this patch today, since you'd be able to que with 5 from your guild. Better than nothing, not gonna lie! It took me forever to get my offhand, but I'm just happy now I have it. Even though I failed a lot, the failures actually helped, because they gave me experience so I would do better the next time around. But aye, I see your point too.
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    charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    query523 wrote: »
    The fact that GS can be bought is one of the major reasons I ignore it. This goes back to Mod2 where I would sometimes ancounter a HR with T2 gear and CN weapons thus high GS. And I knew, given how new the class was, that they were a well-geared alt with minimal actual play experience. More recently experienced the same with SWs. Folks who have gear and do not know how to play are kind of common in the game at this point. Sogenerally I just talk to people to find out whether or not they are an asset or a liability...
    The problem is that a 10k player, outside of whatever that months fotm class is, can not do the dps of an equally skilled high gs player. I and many other have yet to see a 10k player that is anything other than a detriment to the party as even with perfect gem usage, perfect timing, etc they do not do enough damage to contribute to the fight and bring their share of the heads hp down.
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    query523query523 Member Posts: 1,515 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    charononus wrote: »
    The problem is that a 10k player, outside of whatever that months fotm class is, can not do the dps of an equally skilled high gs player. I and many other have yet to see a 10k player that is anything other than a detriment to the party as even with perfect gem usage, perfect timing, etc they do not do enough damage to contribute to the fight and bring their share of the heads hp down.

    Maybe you need to play more? I've seen 20Ks drop all gems on first attack and cause a wipe. I think another minute of 4 DPSers granted by one low GS who follows the plan is infitely superior to 5 high GS imbeciles. And yes that is something I have personally witnessed.
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    charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    query523 wrote: »
    Maybe you need to play more? I've seen 20Ks drop all gems on first attack and cause a wipe. I think another minute of 4 DPSers granted by one low GS who follows the plan is infitely superior to 5 high GS imbeciles. And yes that is something I have personally witnessed.
    I'm not saying that you can't have high gs idiots. I'm saying that even in perfect conditions 5 10k players that perform with absolute perfection wouldn't be able to bring a head down 1/3 in each phase to kill it. Will not and can not happen.
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    asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    It should be a /tad/ better after this patch today, since you'd be able to que with 5 from your guild. Better than nothing, not gonna lie! It took me forever to get my offhand, but I'm just happy now I have it. Even though I failed a lot, the failures actually helped, because they gave me experience so I would do better the next time around. But aye, I see your point too.

    Sorry to disapoint, but they decided to keep the current system, 'due to positive effects', without elaboration on said effects.

    I outdpsed a 15k CW of a friend with a bad build (before he respeced) with my 6k leadership CW toon, so GS is not everything. But chances are, that someone with a high GS brings more to the party, than a 10k PuG.

    Same build, same rotation, my 21k GS CW with perf vorpal, 5 legendaries, 5 epic companions (no GS pushers, but pure dps boons and ioun stone) will do more then twice the dps of a 12k CW. If DC and GF buff our dps for 200% it will still be twice the dmg. Same goes for every other dps class.

    To be helpful for a fight, you have to have the right class, build, skill and (to a certain level) gear. I know ppl who outdps most other players with the same class and 5k more GS bc. of their build/skill/ playstyle. That said, I dont know 99% of the players and my experience is, that most ppl who dont care about gear, boons etc. dont care about the 'best build' tactics etc., too. So if I have to run with PuGs, I prefer the 15k+ GS ppl to the ones with 10k GS.

    If gear would not have such an impact, why do high GS PvP players own their 12k PuG counterparts? Due to a bad ELO my 22k GWF has to fight 12k PuGs on a daily base. If there is not a combination of TR with some other classes, I kill them brainAFK in a 1v1 and most of the times 1v2 or even 1v3.

    Everyone who claimes, that gear does not have any imput deludes himself. You are a great player on a 14k GS toon, guess what, if you would slap some legendaries, R10s, companions etc. on your toon, you will bring even more to the table.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
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    query523query523 Member Posts: 1,515 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Sure. a whole party of 10Ks is likely to fail. Do you ever actually see that? I mean a fresh 60 in blues has a higher GS. I'd guesstimate the average GS of active players at around 15K, maybe higher now that T2 is cheap. Overall bad behavior (campfire sitting etc) is a larger cause of instance fails than GS overall. Again I have a high DPS, high GS main. I usually score in the top 2-5 on Tiamat. I just never encounter a case where low gear results in a fail. Ioften find myself in an instance where bad play results in a fail.
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    charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    query523 wrote: »
    Sure. a whole party of 10Ks is likely to fail. Do you ever actually see that? I mean a fresh 60 in blues has a higher GS. I'd guesstimate the average GS of active players at around 15K, maybe higher now that T2 is cheap. Overall bad behavior (campfire sitting etc) is a larger cause of instance fails than GS overall. Again I have a high DPS, high GS main. I usually score in the top 2-5 on Tiamat. I just never encounter a case where low gear results in a fail. Ioften find myself in an instance where bad play results in a fail.

    Philosophy difference then. I think if a whole party of people at 10k can't do something, one 10k person has no business being there. My personal thought is that the line should be at 13k where elol is (iirc).
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    szejhuludpuchaczszejhuludpuchacz Member Posts: 306 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I just hope to get all my linus favours before they create a party system and thus will get kicked for having a low gs.

    Regarding the HP, for the the question if it stacks, no it does not, so two clerics with HP is not good. Regarding the HP and its use in Tiamat, here is some rough maths (and I most certainly stand under correction here). Assuming there are 24 others zerging a dragon head, and a with 30% extra damage which about 5000 extra power, that equates to 24 * 5000 = 120 000 power you add ! Next time an elitist wags his finger at you, just tell him "I am bringing over 100 000 power to Tiamat, what do you have to offer ?"

    Calm down, cleric is specific class. HP armor, debuffs from feats and powers. Low geared clerics do same job at this point, but well geared doing it even much better. ;) Im fine with few lowbies around who know what to do. But if i see map with many 'epic heroes' i rather change map. Failed 2-3 times when lowbies done only 1,5-2 heads at 1st phase. Your debuff doesnt help much if there is only few high dps dealers around.

    I have 14 toons right now, 13x 60lv, mostly undergeared coz i focus on my main. I know the pain of low gs. My CW in old times can outdps better geared peeps (CWs included), but people dont want him from lfg (he was only 12k+). So what? PvE is trivial. Few runs and you know (if you are smart person) how to play your toon. Nowadays your gear matter more than skill -> gameplay is easy
    200_s.gif
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    query523query523 Member Posts: 1,515 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    charononus wrote: »
    Philosophy difference then. I think if a whole party of people at 10k can't do something, one 10k person has no business being there. My personal thought is that the line should be at 13k where elol is (iirc).

    Again. Depends on play IMHO. A great example of this in ToT is the CW that keeps hitting Ice Storm im cleric phase. Functionally a 0 GS (nobody at all) contributes more to overall DPS than a 20K CW who keeps scattering mobs and diluting the overall DPS. The instance would in fact clear faster if that individual sat at the campfire.
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    charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    query523 wrote: »
    Again. Depends on play IMHO. A great example of this in ToT is the CW that keeps hitting Ice Storm im cleric phase. Functionally a 0 GS (nobody at all) contributes more to overall DPS than a 20K CW who keeps scattering mobs and diluting the overall DPS. The instance would in fact clear faster if that individual sat at the campfire.

    I think you're too stuck on your 20k idiot example and missing the entire point.
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    m1nuendm1nuend Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Again...

    It's not necessarily to remove it although I would love if it was just utterly crushed and burned to a crisp with a lovely marshmallow roast to boot...

    But there is no reason to have it public information. People will find it much harder to go by it if they can't see what other people's GS is. Keep the horrible number but remove the ability for other people to see it. You can still tell people your useless number and you can still use it to guage if you are ready for content but the elitists would actually have to do a bit of brainwork to figure out if a person is lying about their GS.

    I don't think it would matter. Removing GS might even make it worse, as people would have to look to what tier set you were using and how many legendaries you had. They would have to rely on their own subjective perception of what good enough is. (And those most intent on GS are often the same who lack the ability to properly estimate usefulness based on gear).

    ---

    Which I also think is a problem in Tiamat. Players try to estimate whether it will be successful or not depending on how the kill summoners phase go. Some will jump ship if it doesn't live up to their subjective perception of good enough. I think they are more often than not being erroneous in their calculation. And the more they are in high DPS runs, the more they will be skeptical to groups who are slower, but who could still do it.


    As for OP. I think the people who complain about 14k are in the minority. I think most (who are themselves above) consider 11-12k to be the cutoff. Maybe 13k.
    39275e2ac4.jpg
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    avengingangel93avengingangel93 Member Posts: 192 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    charononus wrote: »
    I think you're too stuck on your 20k idiot example and missing the entire point.

    Sounds like the guy is all about those numbers, not the bass XD
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    avengingangel93avengingangel93 Member Posts: 192 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    asterotg wrote: »
    Sorry to disapoint, but they decided to keep the current system, 'due to positive effects', without elaboration on said effects.

    Dang. I was hoping they'd bring that out. *le sigh*
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    isuuck2isuuck2 Member Posts: 491 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    you can have low gearscore but if you are competent then you can accomplish a lot. Gear does make you more effective if you are specced correctly but it is more about how you play and if you can communicate and formulate strategies.
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    pointsmanpointsman Member Posts: 2,327 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Just to follow up on a few things.

    Yes I got the math wrong on the Plague Fire debuffs. Sorry.

    But PF does stack, just not with other PFs of the same rank. So a Lesser PF and a Greater PF will stack, but a Lesser will not stack with a Lesser.

    And when it comes to lag, Astral Seal isn't the problem per se, it is the combination of Astral Seal, Burning Guidance boon, and a Faithful DC feat that Righteous DC's don't get access to (I believe it is Shared Burdens). Although I thought it was ninja-fixed; maybe not.

    And on the question of whether a 20k DC would be more effective than a 14k DC: well, for some things yes, for other things no.

    The main debuff tool is Divine Glow, and that is a fixed percentage of target debuff, regardless if the DC is 14k or 20k.

    The damage and healing components of Divine Glow would obviously be larger with 20k DC than with 14k DC, but then again, DCs don't generally cast Divine Glow for these reasons. Its main utility is for buffing/debuffing.

    It is likewise similar with Forgemaster's Flame. Empowered FF grants allies 5% additional damage per stack, regardless if the DC is 14k or 20k. The DoT component of FF would be higher with 20k DC than with 14k DC, but not the buff.

    So a 20k DC would be a little bit better than a 14k DC, but not hugely better.
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    kolatmasterkolatmaster Member Posts: 3,111 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Greetings all!

    Just wanted to chime in briefly...

    As a 21k GS Scourge Warlock, and one who strives to balance his stats as much as possible w/o inflating them uncessarily, I'll readily state I don't give a Cindy Loo Who what someone's GS is. If they can carry themselves well in game, slot the appropriate powers, listen to/give solid advice and chat about XYZ encounter intelligently... I'm game to run with ya! :cool:
    va8Ru.gif
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    urlord283urlord283 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,084 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    What is the Min GS?
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    charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    urlord283 wrote: »
    What is the Min GS?
    10k currently iirc
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    lewstelamon01lewstelamon01 Member Posts: 7,415 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I've said it before an I'll say it again...

    Gearscore means nothing to truly experienced players. People with only 14K GS more than likely stacked the correct stats and built their character with synergy in mind rather than the large population of complete idiots who only equip things for an artificial number.

    My highest geared character is around 15K GS. The second highest is 13K. Third Highest is 12K. Every one of them has completed every single piece of PvE content and has often been praised as having some of the smoothest runs people have ever had. It's amazing what characters can do when you put thought into builds and gameplay rather than some stupid number.


    Quite frankly I know every single one of the community mods would be so much happier if GS was removed or at least hidden from public view. We didn't like the concept of GS in Alpha and the number of less than intelligent people living by it seems to be rising rather than falling with time.

    There's another term for GS I like to use: Big Number Epeen Syndrome. When skill is quantified by some as a tangible and observable variable so they don't have to time and effort watching said player in an actual battle, people tend to just give it a glance and move on. That's the snap judgement nature of society today.

    However, I don't go for the school of "higher GS = moar skill". I don't go for the 2/4 set to inflate numbers. I've found that set bonus you get from being 4/4 is a LOT better than any stat bonus for going split set can give. Take Accursed Diabolist for instance. I'll take 60k flat damage increase over 400 or so of a random stat any day. Yet that 60k bonus from Hellfire stacks doesn't show up in GS...but you'll definitely see it in the overall damage done.

    I've also found that 5k power means squat if you have < 1k armor pen. That 5k power may as well be 2k power for all the waterballoons you're chucking at the mobs.

    Bottom line: GS isn't quite as important as how you're distributing it. The "moar power!!" school of thought doesn't cut it if you're not looking at how to reduce those defenses.
    ROLL TIDE ROLL

    Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?

    PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
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    plaviaplavia Member Posts: 540 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    14K DC can contribute a lot in tiamat, DC buff powers are not related to GS so 9K DC can contribute a lot
    BUT
    in general you can't do it if your group have low GS.
    some time we fail and you see that DPS is just not high enough.
    even if you do the cleric in good time. for the heads you need decent DPS

    I know its considered good farming zone now.

    but for all the new players
    please finish the other campaigns before coming to tiamat. (sharndar, dread ring, icewind)
    beside GS you will get many boons that will make you viable for raids like tiamat
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    charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    There's another term for GS I like to use: Big Number Epeen Syndrome. When skill is quantified by some as a tangible and observable variable so they don't have to time and effort watching said player in an actual battle, people tend to just give it a glance and move on. That's the snap judgement nature of society today.

    However, I don't go for the school of "higher GS = moar skill". I don't go for the 2/4 set to inflate numbers. I've found that set bonus you get from being 4/4 is a LOT better than any stat bonus for going split set can give. Take Accursed Diabolist for instance. I'll take 60k flat damage increase over 400 or so of a random stat any day. Yet that 60k bonus from Hellfire stacks doesn't show up in GS...but you'll definitely see it in the overall damage done.

    I've also found that 5k power means squat if you have < 1k armor pen. That 5k power may as well be 2k power for all the waterballoons you're chucking at the mobs.

    Bottom line: GS isn't quite as important as how you're distributing it. The "moar power!!" school of thought doesn't cut it if you're not looking at how to reduce those defenses.
    I don't think that most people that are arguing for a higher gs requirement are unaware of this. You of course want a viable set, and stats that make the most of your role. What many of us are saying is the line for what's required should be a little higher, because assuming someone did the math right in another thread the group needs to put out 13 million damage per minute, 520,000 per person per min. Now assuming that that is correct, I'm going to strip myself down to 10k tonight and see how close I can get to that number with ACT. I don't think I'll be anywhere near close.
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    hefisdohefisdo Member Posts: 709 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    This isn't elitism, this is stupid people that don't know how differently the GS works through classes and mechanics.

    Elitism would be someone be kicked because he isn't equipped with BiS only.
    (´・ ω ・`)
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    izatarizatar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,161 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Even in this anti-elitist thread, there is elitism.

    "don't stand next to the clerics" you say.

    Why? Do you know how the mechanics of that battle work? What is it exactly you think happens when someone stands next to the clerics? Are you sure?
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    frishterfrishter Member Posts: 3,522 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Bottom line: GS isn't quite as important as how you're distributing it. The "moar power!!" school of thought doesn't cut it if you're not looking at how to reduce those defenses.

    To be fair, I don't think people associate gs with score. Only that they have the tools for the job. Albeit asking a soldier to swat a fly.
    charononus wrote: »
    I'm going to strip myself down to 10k tonight and see how close I can get to that number with ACT. I don't think I'll be anywhere near close.

    That would be interesting.
    izatar wrote: »
    Even in this anti-elitist thread, there is elitism.

    "don't stand next to the clerics" you say.

    Why? Do you know how the mechanics of that battle work? What is it exactly you think happens when someone stands next to the clerics? Are you sure?

    Because the dragon breath targets a player and if that player is near the cleric, it slows things down. Sometimes it's not so bad, there's plenty of time for 3 rounds and it's rare to need a 4th one which you'd need to ace the defending rounds to do, while a good group should manage to do it in 3 in the first place. It can at worst slow things down a lot though. But yeah, try to avoid doing it. If anyone rages at you, ignore them. People are jerks. Earlier I was rages at for advising not to kill the heads since the regenerate with more health. No harsh tone, all caps or exclamation marks, just a simple tip to make sure other runs go smoother.
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    izatarizatar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,161 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    frishter wrote: »
    T
    Because the dragon breath targets a player and if that player is near the cleric, it slows things down.

    No it doesnt.
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    korpakukac1korpakukac1 Member Posts: 96 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    My 12,7kgs Fury SW is usually 4-7th in Tiamat...
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    izatarizatar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,161 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    My 12,7kgs Fury SW is usually 4-7th in Tiamat...

    Score in Tiamat only reflects the last few seconds of combat in the entire battle. You can do nothing for 20 minutes, then go do some AOEs at the last second and end up on top.

    Try putting up the score screen (press X) while playing. Watch how that silly thing works.
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    rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    query523 wrote: »
    Again. Depends on play IMHO. A great example of this in ToT is the CW that keeps hitting Ice Storm im cleric phase. Functionally a 0 GS (nobody at all) contributes more to overall DPS than a 20K CW who keeps scattering mobs and diluting the overall DPS. The instance would in fact clear faster if that individual sat at the campfire.

    Nope. It still largely depends on gearscore and stats. When you are talking about a difference of 2-4k GS, then play becomes the big big variable.
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    izatarizatar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,161 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    query523 wrote: »
    Again. Depends on play IMHO. A great example of this in ToT is the CW that keeps hitting Ice Storm im cleric phase. Functionally a 0 GS (nobody at all) contributes more to overall DPS than a 20K CW who keeps scattering mobs and diluting the overall DPS. The instance would in fact clear faster if that individual sat at the campfire.

    Oh my, no. You have it all confused. The clerics heal up fastest if that CW is keeping the cleric protected by knocking back the mobs. DPS during the cleric phase is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is keeping he mobs not aggroed on the cleric. So any type of CC or aggro-getter is more important than damage.
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