Insane Gearscore Elitism

pointsman

So I brought my 14k DC into the Tiamat raid today.

And I was yelled at by another participant of being "undergeared".

Well.

My 14k DC has Rank 6/7's and only blue artifacts. That is true.

My 14k DC also has the 4pc High Prophet set and a Lesser Plague Fire enchant (which doesn't show up in gear score, by the way).

So what my 14k DC does when fighting Tiamat, is to apply 3xHigh Prophet stacks (30% buff) by first casting Divine Glow (15% buff), then casting 3xDivine Glow in Divine mode (45% buff), then casting Empowered Forgemaster's Flame (15% buff), while healing you with Divine Glow and Astral Seal.

Oh, also the Plague Fire debuffs (3 stacks, 15%).

So my "undergeared" DC is buffing you and debuffing Tiamat way more than any DPS class could of a similar gear score, or even one at 2k higher gear score.

So before you complain about "undergeared" players in the Temple of Tiamat, please think a little bit about how buffs and debuffs work in this game.

vasdamas

Sometimes I know that such threads usually are nothing but cries of people that actually don't care to gear up but in this case...yeah, that is really sick kind of elitism.

Also IMO 14k is enough for tiamat, seen some guys with that gear score performing better than 16-18k show-offs. Besides debuff clerics tend to have a little bit less GS than the other cleric's builds due to t1 being the best set for PvE so that guy must be an idiot for sure.

rarefaction

I was given the same speech even though as a 14k DC, ive beaten others in dps that had higher gear scores in dungeons. He told me I had no right to be there unless I completed all of dread ring, sharandar and Icewind Dale. I laughed it off and put him on ignore. I have another toon that is much higher gear score but I've grown tired of the leetism. It's getting so old.

frishter

Unfortunately people can be judgemental tools. I too judge a team that is too low gs, but that's mostly in the 10-12k gs range so I am pretty fair. I find a lot of peoples attitudes disheartening.

query523

My main is over 20KGS. That said GS is the last thing I look at when grouping. My real priorities are:
1. Are they using party chat? x3 for voice do you can communicate while playing.
2. Will they coordinate buff/ debuf? I am high crit and use PVorp but I keep a GPF in case nobody else brought one.
3. will they group mobs to focus DPS? One CW hitting Ice Storm can drastically reduce party effectiveness. I would rather have 4 people then have the fifth be that guy.
4. last and least I willlook at GS. In my experience those that fail at 1-3 are usually the folks with high GS. Even having a high Gs I am skeptical of others in my GS range because they tend to rely on personal power over coordination and teamwork.

ambisinisterr

I've said it before an I'll say it again...

Gearscore means nothing to truly experienced players. People with only 14K GS more than likely stacked the correct stats and built their character with synergy in mind rather than the large population of complete idiots who only equip things for an artificial number.

My highest geared character is around 15K GS. The second highest is 13K. Third Highest is 12K. Every one of them has completed every single piece of PvE content and has often been praised as having some of the smoothest runs people have ever had. It's amazing what characters can do when you put thought into builds and gameplay rather than some stupid number.


Quite frankly I know every single one of the community mods would be so much happier if GS was removed or at least hidden from public view. We didn't like the concept of GS in Alpha and the number of less than intelligent people living by it seems to be rising rather than falling with time.

emilemo

pointsman wrote: »

So I brought my 14k DC into the Tiamat raid today.

And I was yelled at by another participant of being "undergeared".

Well.

My 14k DC has Rank 6/7's and only blue artifacts. That is true.

My 14k DC also has the 4pc High Prophet set and a Lesser Plague Fire enchant (which doesn't show up in gear score, by the way).

So what my 14k DC does when fighting Tiamat, is to apply 3xHigh Prophet stacks (30% buff) by first casting Divine Glow (15% buff), then casting 3xDivine Glow in Divine mode (45% buff), then casting Empowered Forgemaster's Flame (15% buff), while healing you with Divine Glow and Astral Seal.

Oh, also the Plague Fire debuffs (3 stacks, 15%).

So my "undergeared" DC is buffing you and debuffing Tiamat way more than any DPS class could of a similar gear score, or even one at 2k higher gear score.

So before you complain about "undergeared" players in the Temple of Tiamat, please think a little bit about how buffs and debuffs work in this game.

See, even in the "20k zergs" there are many clueless people who, for example, often fail to defend the clerics properly. So the only thing saving the run is the huge dps. If you contribute to that you are fine.

That being said, does your DC have access to IWD ? Seriously they put IWD behind the 3 boons lock yet even 10k people can go do Tiamat which is the current top endgame imo. That brings alot of failure not only because low GS = low dps but because many of these folks have no idea how to play their class and somehow always fail to grasp the simple mechanics of the Tia encounter.

PS: For the love of Bahamut standing near the clerics must stop

PS2: Has the NVW playerbase been reduced to a group of monkeys with keyboards who only know how to attack things ?

PS3: When inside the Temple please speak in /say

PS4: Gems have a use..use them!

grumblesmorf

I did it for the first time today on my cleric who's just over 13k. We won, and I was in the gold bracket and got a nice purple to salvage along with one of those Favor things. I only died once too when I mistimed trying to dodge through a big breath attack. I was worried that 13k would mean I was a hindrance to everyone which is why I hadn't run it until today just testing the waters, but honestly I had fun and was helping out just fine. Like you said you were doing, I was buffing and debuffing, as well as doing CC. I used Forgemasters, Divine Glow, and Prophecy of Doom on the heads and switched in Chains and Sunburst for protecting the clerics. Those buffs and debuffs are very handy. I think GS is a lot less important that a lot of people make it out to be. What's more important is that you're paying attention and playing your role effectively.

emilemo

grumblesmorf wrote: »

I did it for the first time today on my cleric who's just over 13k. We won, and I was in the gold bracket and got a nice purple to salvage along with one of those Favor things. I only died once too when I mistimed trying to dodge through a big breath attack. I was worried that 13k would mean I was a hindrance to everyone which is why I hadn't run it until today just testing the waters, but honestly I had fun and was helping out just fine. Like you said you were doing, I was buffing and debuffing, as well as doing CC. I used Forgemasters, Divine Glow, and Prophecy of Doom on the heads and switched in Chains and Sunburst for protecting the clerics. Those buffs and debuffs are very handy. I think GS is a lot less important that a lot of people make it out to be. What's more important is that you're paying attention and playing your role effectively.

GS is only important as long as its relevant to skill level (PVE). Regardless if its right or wrong, people's skill level is judged by GS. Of course sometimes a lower GS player can actually be a very good one, from experience tho mostly they are not.

vasdamas

I think, I've been waiting for long for somebody to ask devs for gear score counter removal. I do realize it's the only barrier for green/blue pugs but it brings so much toxicity in PvE that sometimes I am wonder if I pressed wrong button and accidently queue'd up for PvP.
Just imagine party leaders would actually look at player's stats allocation and enchantments instead of just judging their performance by GS counter but..of course nowdays noone has got enough time for that, everyone just wants to rush the dungeons (oh wait, what dungeons?) to keep wiping at the last boss. It's not like parties wipe a lot nowdays but still, from my CN pug experience they do a lot, at dracolich at least And some of them had really well geared players.

frishter

Personally I kind of like the gs number. Just because people misjudge it doesn't mean that it doesn't mean anything. For one it's an easy way to see dungeon requirements. Although not completely accurate, it does show that you're on your way with having the points needed to beat the content, you just need to optimise it if you fail. People will still find a way to judge you without it. Oh look that guy doesn't have orange items, must be a scrub!

Not sure why some people seem to think some low gsers are good and high gsers are bad. My experience shows otherwise. I wouldn't class the happy medium as low, but the low ones are more likely to not know their class, and with high gs, even if not optimised for max effectiveness, it's pretty hard to mess up legendary items.

ambisinisterr

Which is fine and dandy Frishter...

But leaves the question...why does everybody else need to know or be able to check what your score is.

When real players play (yes I went there) it literally never comes up other than when you are purposely trying to pump people's GS up to get into content. Unless the whole group is really undergeared (heh good luck doing that nowadays) it has no bearance. Look at the idiots (this is the only way to describe them) asking for 15K+ GS to do T2 content when a year ago 14K GS was almost unheard of.

A private number would be one thing...
But the only time I have ever *needed* to be able to look at somebody else's gear score is dealing with technically impaired people who don't know how to check their GS.

And yes I have had my fair share of facepalm answers to "What is your GS?" ranging from "60" to "48K" and even "Guardian Fighter."

rashylewizz

This is why we should let us queue with our friends. Elitists can all stay with the elitists. You don't have to be burdened by a lot of them.

rashylewizz

emilemo wrote: »

See, even in the "20k zergs" there are many clueless people who, for example, often fail to defend the clerics properly. So the only thing saving the run is the huge dps. If you contribute to that you are fine.

Well, that is a bit of an exaggeration since there are no instances with full 20k GS players. 20K zergs merely imply there are more than 5 people with 20k GS.

I usually see the clueless ones as having gearscore ranging from 11-13k GS but of course, there are always exceptions.

inthefade462

pointsman wrote: »

So I brought my 14k DC into the Tiamat raid today.

And I was yelled at by another participant of being "undergeared".

Well.

My 14k DC has Rank 6/7's and only blue artifacts. That is true.

Well to play devil's advocate. You realize a 20k DC can and most likely does do all of the following, just better than you right? so if they were given the choice of taking your r6/7 DC or a r8/9 DC that does everything you do but does more dmg and doesn't die, then they would obviously choose them over you. But we aren't given a choice really which is frustrating and leads to ppl yelling at strangers for having low gs and still joining tiamat. Not that I think 14k is too low personally, just saying. Devil's advocate.

My 14k DC also has the 4pc High Prophet set and a Lesser Plague Fire enchant (which doesn't show up in gear score, by the way).

Pretty sure that they fixed High prophet (Loooong after they fixed HV btw, since they never envisioned multiple DC runs) to max 3 stacks so your HP does nothing if another DC is also using HP (they are). Also your LPF is a 3% dmg buff, but again doesn't stack with other lpf so only if no one else is using a LPF, otherwise it's ALSO doing nothing.

So what my 14k DC does when fighting Tiamat, is to apply 3xHigh Prophet stacks (30% buff) by first casting Divine Glow (15% buff), then casting 3xDivine Glow in Divine mode (45% buff), then casting Empowered Forgemaster's Flame (15% buff), while healing you with Divine Glow and Astral Seal.

Honestly haven't tested DC buffs to see how they stack with one another, I know they were stacking unlimited on test and clerics were able to buff you to do billions of dmg per hit but that got nerfed. So pretty sure there is a buff stack cap so your buffs are probably not doing anything either, if there's a 20k DC sitting next to you providing the same thing.

BUT MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY:

Stop using Astral Seal! What you are contributing is nothing but LAG and that ability (combined with a couple of boons/feats) is what causes instance destroying slide show lag and causes more tiamat failures than all the 10k afk at campfire scrubs combined.

Oh, also the Plague Fire debuffs (3 stacks, 15%).

again only if nobody else is using a LPF, and it's only 3% at 3 stacks (assuming you can maintain 3 stacks)

So my "undergeared" DC is buffing you and debuffing Tiamat way more than any DPS class could of a similar gear score, or even one at 2k higher gear score.

Again, not if another DC is there. If they are, and assuming they aren't allowing buffs (DG/FF/etc) to stack then no, all you are adding is your dps, healing, and soul crushing lag if you are using Astral Seal.

So before you complain about "undergeared" players in the Temple of Tiamat, please think a little bit about how buffs and debuffs work in this game.

It would behoove you to familiarize yourself with how buffs and debuffs actually work before criticizing other players for not knowing how they work.


As long as you stop using Astral Seal you're welcome in my instance (Not that it matters since i have no control over who is in it) just know what you are actually providing and what you are only providing in theory.

rashylewizz

To add to inthefades' points, I also think that 13k players outplaying 20k players is the exception, not the rule. There are many many many more instances wherein the dps, experience and knowledge from 20k GS players are much better than lower gearscore players.

And yes, gearscore does not tell the whole story, far from it and there are certain cases in which it is wrong. However, it is the easiest and usually reliable tool in giving a quick picture of a player that we have now. Nobody has the time to spend dozens hours evaluating and getting to know each and every player they meet.

Elitism and publicly bashing players is not condoned, but let's try and face harsh realities instead of idealistically making up scenarios.

frishter

ambisinisterr wrote: »

Which is fine and dandy Frishter...

But leaves the question...why does everybody else need to know or be able to check what your score is.

When real players play (yes I went there) it literally never comes up other than when you are purposely trying to pump people's GS up to get into content. Unless the whole group is really undergeared (heh good luck doing that nowadays) it has no bearance. Look at the idiots (this is the only way to describe them) asking for 15K+ GS to do T2 content when a year ago 14K GS was almost unheard of.

A private number would be one thing...
But the only time I have ever *needed* to be able to look at somebody else's gear score is dealing with technically impaired people who don't know how to check their GS.

And yes I have had my fair share of facepalm answers to "What is your GS?" ranging from "60" to "48K" and even "Guardian Fighter."

Well it would be more useful if there was more content than just the tiamat raid. Our guild has their gs in their comments and back in the day that was a good indicator to see if you were ready for CN or needed to work on your t2 gear. If we had several high gs players that we know can handle the run well, then we could take a lower gs player for CN who may or may not have done it before. We weren't elitists. We just wanted an easy way to identify the content for your level and how well you'd be able to do it in case we need to bring better help. Over time that became less important, but the number itself was a nice basic indicator. That's not to say that we didn't see high gs'ers that weren't perfect, and I myself was probably counted as a low gs'er having started doing CN in rank 4s and being too cheap to upgrade when removal costs were quite high.

If it did get removed, then it's removed. But the number itself isn't really flawed, just the people who put too much emphasis on it. Unfortunately they will continue to put too much emphasis on other unimportant things instead. I do agree that it's a shame that some people want twice the minimum gs.

ambisinisterr

Again...

It's not necessarily to remove it although I would love if it was just utterly crushed and burned to a crisp with a lovely marshmallow roast to boot...

But there is no reason to have it public information. People will find it much harder to go by it if they can't see what other people's GS is. Keep the horrible number but remove the ability for other people to see it. You can still tell people your useless number and you can still use it to guage if you are ready for content but the elitists would actually have to do a bit of brainwork to figure out if a person is lying about their GS.

thefabricant

Ergh, I am in the GS should be removed category. Although I got a high GS now, I know that if I geared down to 9/10k gs my CW would still be a bigger asset then a large number of the 15/16k buffoons. Having completed CN in a full <10k gs group I can say it wasn't easy and it took us a long time but the fact of the matter is there are groups of people who can actually run content at the GS intended by the dungeon and if people had to judge by stats and not GS then things would be a lot fairer. It also means they have to have a basic understanding of what armour and what stats are correct for a class other then their own and knowing details about other classes makes you a more valuable asset to the party simply because you understand somewhat that persons party role. I feel running and completing epic dread vault should be a prerequisite for setting GS requirements as that dungeon doesn't suffer fools lightly, regardless of their GS.

avengingangel93

The amount of times I have been discriminated against because of my GS is ridiculous. I am a 24k GS HR one year on, I was one of those people who made an HR back when they first came out and has played one ever since so I do know what I am talking about, and over the time I have been playing, I still find it laughable when people call you out for being a certain GS or not. I have personally never, nor will I ever, join a "20k zerg" party that spams in the well, because I know that there are those 10k less than them, and do a far better job than these so-called "pros" and "experienced" players. I do not care what GS I run with, be they T1 dungeons all the way up to Tiamat, and I will not discriminate against players simply because their numbers are "not as high as they could be." Pathetic, in my opinion.

pmabraham

Good day:

While GS by itself is meaningless, there are times it does have a lot of meaning. I..e. if you are under 12K in Tiamat, then chances are high no matter how well your stats and play style, the DPS isn't going to be there. If you believe I'm wrong, get 25 people under 12K each to go in, stay in the exact same gear (so they are still all under 12K gs for the entire fight), win, and take pictures including the gear.

I believe 14K gs is close enough to what I believe to be a minimum as one of several key factors for Tiamat that personally I wouldn't question a 14K gs person unless I saw they achieved it by 2/2 where they were more gs playing vs. looking for the right bonuses, stats, etc.

On the topic of people fighting right on top of the clerics, I could not agree more. This morning, the instance I was in lost for several points:

1. Extremely low DPS; most of the players were in the 10K gs range.
2. Players fighting on top of the clerics.
3. Players not listening to say where they were doing their own thing vs. following zerg.

Since Tiamat is a DPS race (in addition to knowing where to fight such as not on the clerics), yes, GS as it relates to DPS does matter.

Thank you.

szejhuludpuchacz

pmabraham wrote: »

Since Tiamat is a DPS race (in addition to knowing where to fight such as not on the clerics), yes, GS as it relates to DPS does matter.

+++

GS is important for some classes. GWFs heavily rely on it, when CW can be 16k and still outdps 20k+ GWFs with range, much faster AP gain and OP OF. Low GWF cant hit hard dragon's head, ofc buffs/debuffs help lowbies but still they are far behind better geared players.

emilemo

avengingangel93 wrote: »

The amount of times I have been discriminated against because of my GS is ridiculous. I am a 24k GS HR one year on, I was one of those people who made an HR back when they first came out and has played one ever since so I do know what I am talking about, and over the time I have been playing, I still find it laughable when people call you out for being a certain GS or not. I have personally never, nor will I ever, join a "20k zerg" party that spams in the well, because I know that there are those 10k less than them, and do a far better job than these so-called "pros" and "experienced" players. I do not care what GS I run with, be they T1 dungeons all the way up to Tiamat, and I will not discriminate against players simply because their numbers are "not as high as they could be." Pathetic, in my opinion.

You got things a bit mixed up there. When people call for "20K zerg" what they are actually calling for is a skilled group of people. This is what having high GS should mean and its what it means to me. If someone asks for 20k only for the high number with disregard to player skill attached to that number then said someone is a moron...

PS: Needs to be noted that the only thing saving a brainless Tia run is high DPS, which is not present on a 10-12K toon.

avengingangel93

emilemo wrote: »

You got things a bit mixed up there. When people call for "20K zerg" what they are actually calling for is a skilled group of people. This is what having high GS should mean and its what it means to me. If someone asks for 20k only for the high number with disregard to player skill attached to that number then said someone is a moron...

PS: Needs to be noted that the only thing saving a brainless Tia run is high DPS, which is not present on a 10-12K toon.

Just because someone has over 20k GS does not mean they have skill. It may /seem/ like it, and a lot of people over 20k GS are indeed skilled, however GS doesn't mean anything. They can be completely and utterly useless. I know exactly what they want for a "20k zerg" and as for 10-12k GS peeps not doing much DPS.... in general, this is true, but there are always exceptions to this rule. There are exceptions to EVERY rule.

ghoulz66

Just ignore em. Proly the same elitist blanks that demand that you have a GS of 15k to do a FH run with them.

szejhuludpuchacz

Well, with tactical run (grouping) 10k players are even worse: less buffs/debuffs, 5-man group must handle 1 head and killing it simultaneously. So zerg help low geared when tactical run need high DPS. Zerg will fail if there is too many low geared players (or lag/bugs).

query523

szejhuludpuchacz wrote: »

Well, with tactical run (grouping) 10k players are even worse: less buffs/debuffs, 5-man group must handle 1 head and killing it simultaneously. So zerg help low geared when tactical run need high DPS. Zerg will fail if there is too many low geared players (or lag/bugs).

Completely un-true. I have taken low-GS friends on Tactical runs several times. In Tactical a low GS buff/de-buff who will hold their gem until 3rd breath weapon is >>>>>>+ a 20kGS DPS class who will fail to do so.

szejhuludpuchacz

ghoulz66 wrote: »

Just ignore em. Proly the same elitist blanks that demand that you have a GS of 15k to do a FH run with them.

LOL, it is my will who will i choose... If you want challenge - run with peeps under 10k and go CN without soul. I want take my gear off and do it someday with my friends.

szejhuludpuchacz

query523 wrote: »

Completely un-true. I have taken low-GS friends on Tactical runs several times. In Tactical a low GS buff/de-buff who will hold their gem until 3rd breath weapon is >>>>>>+ a 20kGS DPS class who will fail to do so.

Im talking about ungeard randoms. You dont know if they are skilled, you can see only their low gs. GS can be bought, or GS can be something they worked hard on it.

But GS does matter to DPS. This is what im saying.

emilemo

avengingangel93 wrote: »

Just because someone has over 20k GS does not mean they have skill. It may /seem/ like it, and a lot of people over 20k GS are indeed skilled, however GS doesn't mean anything. They can be completely and utterly useless. I know exactly what they want for a "20k zerg" and as for 10-12k GS peeps not doing much DPS.... in general, this is true, but there are always exceptions to this rule. There are exceptions to EVERY rule.

Well you are right..but again in general. And 'general' has a habit of not applying to everyone. I'll speak for myself, if I log in tonight after work, after gym, after shower, after dinner, after social life I have no more than an hour-hour and a half to play. Tiamat is once per hour. In that short window I cant be looking for the exceptions, Im looking for a win in hope of gettin' the offhand in time for double RP. And it doesnt matter if I like it or not but joining a "secret 20k zerg" has proven to be my best chance of securing a win. Some of us just dont have the time to try and fail and not care, even if I end up in a room full of high GS tools who mess up the cleric phase these same tools burn dragon HP fast and get the job done. Its not pretty and it maybe be morally flawed but its all I got since the devs wont allow me to queue with 25 people from my guild.

query523

szejhuludpuchacz wrote: »

Im talking about ungeard randoms. You dont know if they are skilled, you can see only their low gs. GS can be bought, or GS can be something they worked hard on it.

But GS does matter to DPS. This is what im saying.

The fact that GS can be bought is one of the major reasons I ignore it. This goes back to Mod2 where I would sometimes ancounter a HR with T2 gear and CN weapons thus high GS. And I knew, given how new the class was, that they were a well-geared alt with minimal actual play experience. More recently experienced the same with SWs. Folks who have gear and do not know how to play are kind of common in the game at this point. Sogenerally I just talk to people to find out whether or not they are an asset or a liability...