far simpler solution than an entire environmental redesign is changing the gems.
When gem is equipped in belt slot (you have the colored circle on your head) you (and only you) are immune to that color breath weapon. It is no longer an activated item that protects others from/clears effects of breath attacks. and then change the cooldown of tiamat's breath weapons to every 30s, ie starting at 2:00, 1:30, 1:00, 0:30, 0:00.
Now you need 4-5 ppl (really, you just need balanced DPS, so some heads could have 3 heavy DPS classes while other heads get 6, etc) with gem equipped per head. You can still help other groups but only in short bursts (such as you finish your head and jump down to help them finish their's off) but you can't 25man zerg it.
Also red breath attacks needs a boost, it can be tanked by basically everyone, even without dodge.
Tbh that sounds a little more dull having it passive. Basically all you're left to do is dps...
It's not that it will hurt anyone, it's that unless they implement full 25 man raid grouping and allow you to queue at that point it will never happen, and some of the comments I've read make it seem like that will never happen. So what we have is that people that like color parties spend their time raging and insulting everyone else for doing a zerg party. I have no in game problem doing a color tactics run if the whole group agreed but I won't try to join one at the moment because the insults that constantly fly from the pro-tactics partisans make me not want to have anything to do with them in game.
I'm not 'raging at' or 'insulting' anyone who wants to zerg. I'd just like the option to never have to group with them. Do I get upset when what could be a good Tactics run gets derailed and failed because a handful of people in the instance want to zerg? Yep. If there is an issue with Tactics groups wrecking zergs I have yet to see it. Multiple times we have managed to get mostly Tactics players into an instance and some zergheads refuse to adapt and cause a wipe. If I am in an instance where most people want to zerg I'll zerg because there is a cap of 1 Linu per hour. Zergers never extend the same courtesy so a way to segregate fromthem is pretty desireable. Anyway I'm close to being done with the boons and then I can avoid the whole mess entirely.
That removes the "zerg" tactic all together. If players managed to find a simpler solution, kudos to them. Don't strip them of it.
Instead, simply create an "elite" version of the map, in which said tactic is no longer an option.
I agree with what frishter says, it would indeed be DPS only from that point on. What's more, I imagine everyone around the middle cleric w/o the "right gem" getting killed because they had the gall to go for the green one instead of blue?
I'm not 'raging at' or 'insulting' anyone who wants to zerg. I'd just like the option to never have to group with them. Do I get upset when what could be a good Tactics run gets derailed and failed because a handful of people in the instance want to zerg? Yep. If there is an issue with Tactics groups wrecking zergs I have yet to see it. Multiple times we have managed to get mostly Tactics players into an instance and some zergheads refuse to adapt and cause a wipe. If I am in an instance where most people want to zerg I'll zerg because there is a cap of 1 Linu per hour. Zergers never extend the same courtesy so a way to segregate fromthem is pretty desireable. Anyway I'm close to being done with the boons and then I can avoid the whole mess entirely.
What your fundamentally complaining about is that they don't allow you to set up a 25 man group ahead of time. If they did you can pick your own tractics group, or you can go with a zerg group.
Most folks want to actually play with their friends and/or guild, not a bunch of random folks.
50 Linu's favors for 7th boon
30 Linu's favors for 6th boon
Killing Tiamat 80 times. That's grind.
That's the same quantity that the numbers of sigils you need for the previous boons. Except it comes from one 5-headed dragon instead of the sigils coming from one easy dragon at a time in several realms.
If it's a grind, Tiamat has to fall each time.
If on the other hand the devs want to make it a challenging skirmish, then the Boons requirements have to be changed.
So far when pugging Tiamat with my 20k main it usually fails. Tens fails in a row was yesterday, despite the strat being well-known
now. I also was successful twice, but it was when the weekly quest had proc-ed and everybody was donating for the quest, creating tiamat bonusses as a side effect.
50 Linu's favors for 7th boon
30 Linu's favors for 6th boon
Killing Tiamat 80 times. That's grind.
You could donate to get some of those.
As you also noted, getting even to Tier 1 usually makes a huge difference in whether a typical group wins. It almost seems like we were supposed to figure out these two things go together.
It might be nice to have a personal bonus (maybe a two-day duration) for hitting the 1500 point. Maybe that would get more people's attention than the extra favor seems to.
And, while we are tinkering with the incentives, how about losing a favor if you leave an instance early? If I was Linu, I can assure you that would be the top of my list of dis-favored behavior. I'd add standing still in the entry, but it may be too hard to distinguish that from the lag.
What your fundamentally complaining about is that they don't allow you to set up a 25 man group ahead of time. If they did you can pick your own tractics group, or you can go with a zerg group.
Most folks want to actually play with their friends and/or guild, not a bunch of random folks.
1. No, I never suggested that.
2. Who do you think I was grouping with? Hint; friends and guildies. When ToT came out I hated it. An un-coordinated mess. Then someone figured out you could timed-que like we used to to stack GG parties (Luskan, no such option in Delz.). And we started doing it. I was off of work so I did an awful lot of runs. Zerg global time was 235 so you could pick a high number if you wanted to teach some newer people how to run the instance or a low timer if you had mostly vets who could group and attack swiftly. Do I always have 25 friendson? Nope. I keep odd hours. But /legit was using timed too so I could have a lot of fun runs. Yes fun. It did not feel grindy at all. Do you hear that Cryptic? I was enjoying your content for almost a week. It did not feel grindy and soul-ending.
Lately though zergheads are ignoring timers. Why plan a time when everyone is going to rush black and rotate right? So we would set up a timed entry and still get zergs in group. So fine I'll zerg, which is grindy as all get out, for a few more Linu and go back to hitting professions a couple times a day.
how about losing a favor if you leave an instance early?
Tiamat is like pvp in this respect. You know in a couple of minutes that you'll fail no matter what, but you still have to attend the whole, pointless half-hour session.
ToD = ..........
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
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urlord283Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,084Arc User
edited December 2014
Good
The current way most folks form a group to get a Soul then drop out and zerg
You know in a couple of minutes that you'll fail no matter what, but you still have to attend the whole, pointless half-hour session.
Yeah, amen to that. I know all too well that sinking feeling where the clerics take just a little bit longer than normal then the super-duper-mega-zerg on the black head turns out to be more of a medium tickle. Of course, with slick cleric work you could probably get to a 4th dragon head phase to compensate for the low DPS, but the team that is capable of the slick cleric work is the same one that doesn't need a 4th phase (or even a 3rd phase in one memorable zerg yesterday!)
I'm not a quitter so I'll battle on just for fun but it doesn't take long before you have 5 or 10 folk just standing at the camp fire, waiting for the end, and at that point it becomes very difficult to stay alive. But you have to stay to get the losers reward. So I've battled until I have a full collection of severe injuries, I've stood on the camp fire with the others, I've switched instances once to check that things are just as bad in other places (they are) and once, just for fun, I tried to pull the mobs to the camp fire. I managed to get them close enough to learn that those folk were very much not AFK and I also managed to "lure" a dragon breath attack to right in front of the fire but I have not yet managed a direct hit on the circle. I guess we all need goals in life.
I did 70+ runs. Imo ToT is easy, if your group is halfway decent.
With good groups, we zerged the heads in 2 rounds. Two good players can protect the clerics at the sides, if needed.
Mediocre groups can kill her in 3 rounds. 4-5 ppl at the sides.
Full premades should be able to kill her in one round.
If you get to many AFK/ 10k+ ppl, you lose, period.
If they would allow full premade ques, min GS would not be a problem, bc. the premade can decide, if they want to carry weaker friends and 10k-13k PuGs would not stand a chance to finish the fight with a succsess, without the other player doing the work.
Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
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urlord283Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,084Arc User
edited December 2014
I played all weekend and only one once
I hear folks say how easy it is but for the ones I joined we lost all but one
the fight is phased, which is good, because it creates diversity, you're not just attacking the boss/adds and avoid red, you complete different objectives which require tactics and cooperation
soul gems are AMAZING, using certain items in certain circumstances is a key feature of smart gameplay
CONS
there should be an option to enter as a 25 man premade PERIOD, people farm/buy gear to be competitive, they want to be the best, to complete the newest challenge if their gear and skill are appropriate and NOT carry random players
such complicated content should be properly tested before launch, crazy amount of bugs drives players away
rewards should NOT include ANYTHING that makes older content obsolete, reward players with RP, enchantments, crafting items and assets, but DON'T reward them with enormous amount of gear that none will need after a week or two
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
there should be an option to enter as a 25 man premade PERIOD, people farm/buy gear to be competitive, they want to be the best, to complete the newest challenge if their gear and skill are appropriate and NOT carry random players
such complicated content should be properly tested before launch, crazy amount of bugs drives players away
rewards should NOT include ANYTHING that makes older content obsolete, reward players with RP, enchantments, crafting items and assets, but DON'T reward them with enormous amount of gear that none will need after a week or two
Yes to everything !
I don't suffer from insanity ! ..I enjoy every minute of it ![SIGPIC][/SIGPIc]
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
edited December 2014
Look at it this way, now you won't be able to complain about people with low GS in ToT.
when can we expect to Q in with k from anywhere in WoD?
the new temple is empty and lacks the luster that tiamat deserves, alittle gold on the side ? for TIAMAT? when lostmauth an upity little wormling has liquid gold to bath in? yeah up the bar a little for tiamat
1) Low FPS. I decreased every setting I could think of and still get 1-2 fps. Sometimes I cannot move at all. Sometimes it runs smoothly for a while.
2) You depend on 24 other players, i.e. on luck.
If you aren't lucky and get into an instance with lots of powerful players you will lose. It doesn't help if my toons have a GS of 18-21k or if they are second in damage (I have ACT up and running).
It currently seems to make more sense to spend 25 minutes farming RP stuff and coffers in WoD than to do Tiamat. Otherwise none of my toons will ever get their artifact off hands.
I hear folks say how easy it is but for the ones I joined we lost all but one
Same here, many runs during week-end, zero success. And I tried a couple runs yesterday and Tiamat fell each time. Maybe Tiamat is ninja-buffed during week-ends. Or maybe the donations are better when it's not the week-end.
Same here, many runs during week-end, zero success. And I tried a couple runs yesterday and Tiamat fell each time. Maybe Tiamat is ninja-buffed during week-ends. Or maybe the donations are better when it's not the week-end.
They did not nerf him ppl que at a certain time, to get grouped together. If you get into one of this groups, you will get a win. If you end up in a 10k PuG, you lose.
Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
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sokolnichiyMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 187Arc User
edited December 2014
Sorry if i'm asking same thing as anyone before me, but...
Akro, won't turning TT into party made instance lead to the worst outcome, GS inspect and instant kick from those who treat GS as a measure of how skilful you are?
While designing mechanic for the future changes of TT please take this in consideration and try to find a way to prevent kicking by premade parties or party members with whom player was randomly assigned during queueing TT.
I was also worried about elitism rearing its ugly head and "GS inflation" meaning that anyone less than a god will be rejected, but from the description in this thread it sounds like anyone will be able to queue either on their own or in a party of up to 5. The description is not very clear but I don't think you'll be able to kick people from an instance. If you don't like the folks you are with your only option is to leave and queue again. I certainly hope that is how it works. It will be a real shame if we get another "kick 'em" type vibe.
As posted before, show me a group of 10k GS players killing Tiamat and I will stop asking for a min GS. Imo atm the 'elitist' players have to carry the AFKlers and 10k ppl.
Personally, I would have liked for this to be a giant temple of doom setting, where each team has to choose a different path to go down (Summoner of Green, red, etc) and your five man team only can fight that summoner, then you work your way to severin, you can fight him as a five man team, OR wait on your other teams to finish up, after he is defeated, then Tiamat is summoned and you have to fight for your life against her. A dungeon raid WITH time to plan out how to fight Tiamat. The speed at which you run through it determines how much health and DPS each head has, so it turns into either speeding through it or having a tough long fight.
As posted before, show me a group of 10k GS players killing Tiamat and I will stop asking for a min GS. Imo atm the 'elitist' players have to carry the AFKlers and 10k ppl.
And some of those AFKers are the aforementioned "elite". There are people that will win their rewards on the backs of others among all types of players. Asking that Tiamat be made only the playground of the elite is pointless. Unless they're willing to make this into a 5 team dungeon in which they can separate into epic and normal modes, I don't see any changes on that front.
But then again, this wasn't made to be your average "just throw more DPS at it" heroic encounter. I actually welcome the fact that some sort of actual strategy and planning is required.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
And some of those AFKers are the aforementioned "elite". There are people that will win their rewards on the backs of others among all types of players. Asking that Tiamat be made only the playground of the elite is pointless. Unless they're willing to make this into a 5 team dungeon in which they can separate into epic and normal modes, I don't see any changes on that front.
But then again, this wasn't made to be your average "just throw more DPS at it" heroic encounter. I actually welcome the fact that some sort of actual strategy and planning is required.
There is some points to both your arguments. There is some more than a pure dps race to tiamat. However in the short time I've been back to the game, I've seen a few failures that were pure lack of dps. One failure was a zerg run where in the first head phase the black head was the only one to go down. Because of how slow it was dying, I looked at the map to see if there were a bunch of people afk. One person was at the campfire. The rest were at the head. So while there is more to it than pure dps there is a dps check involved with the fight. IWD has a req of 10kgs and 3 boons. Considering that in theory there should be a progression to your progress post 60, it would not be outrageous to have Tiamat have a req of say 12-14kgs and 5 boons. These aren't hard to get to and would ensure that when you do get into tiamat you are useful rather than a hindrance.
Personally, I would have liked for this to be a giant temple of doom setting, where each team has to choose a different path to go down (Summoner of Green, red, etc) and your five man team only can fight that summoner, then you work your way to severin, you can fight him as a five man team, OR wait on your other teams to finish up, after he is defeated, then Tiamat is summoned and you have to fight for your life against her. A dungeon raid WITH time to plan out how to fight Tiamat. The speed at which you run through it determines how much health and DPS each head has, so it turns into either speeding through it or having a tough long fight.
I'm thinking the Cryptic had no intention of having Tiamat taken down one head at a time. That said, leave the map as it is for now, but work on modifying it in a later patch?
I see it this way:
- 25 people get in the "lobby" and find 5 waiting circles, which will each need at least 4 people on them in order for everyone to be teleported - why 4? in case some bug / lag out.
- Now, simply separate the teams: have them attack from 5 different angles (or 3 - 1 on each side, 3 in the middle, having 3 of the teams work together) by turning the map into corridors surrounded by lava. (careful on the distance, TRs might slip away)
Zerglings not happy? Give the above a decent GS requirement, call it epic and raise the drop chance a little. Then, give the current one a lower GS requirement, leave it as it is, and the zerglings are happy as well.
But first of all, please take a look at those bugs. People are losing countless hours trying to get those favors. :P
As posted before, show me a group of 10k GS players killing Tiamat and I will stop asking for a min GS. Imo atm the 'elitist' players have to carry the AFKlers and 10k ppl.
i think the 1337 players will run with 10k gs just to do it
mmmm
yeah i have 24 others in mind right now that will once it all calms down
Sorry if i'm asking same thing as anyone before me, but...
Akro, won't turning TT into party made instance lead to the worst outcome, GS inspect and instant kick from those who treat GS as a measure of how skilful you are?
While designing mechanic for the future changes of TT please take this in consideration and try to find a way to prevent kicking by premade parties or party members with whom player was randomly assigned during queueing TT.
Thx in advance.
lol people should be able to choose who they want to play with. period.
Comments
Tbh that sounds a little more dull having it passive. Basically all you're left to do is dps...
I'm not 'raging at' or 'insulting' anyone who wants to zerg. I'd just like the option to never have to group with them. Do I get upset when what could be a good Tactics run gets derailed and failed because a handful of people in the instance want to zerg? Yep. If there is an issue with Tactics groups wrecking zergs I have yet to see it. Multiple times we have managed to get mostly Tactics players into an instance and some zergheads refuse to adapt and cause a wipe. If I am in an instance where most people want to zerg I'll zerg because there is a cap of 1 Linu per hour. Zergers never extend the same courtesy so a way to segregate fromthem is pretty desireable. Anyway I'm close to being done with the boons and then I can avoid the whole mess entirely.
Instead, simply create an "elite" version of the map, in which said tactic is no longer an option.
I agree with what frishter says, it would indeed be DPS only from that point on. What's more, I imagine everyone around the middle cleric w/o the "right gem" getting killed because they had the gall to go for the green one instead of blue?
What your fundamentally complaining about is that they don't allow you to set up a 25 man group ahead of time. If they did you can pick your own tractics group, or you can go with a zerg group.
Most folks want to actually play with their friends and/or guild, not a bunch of random folks.
30 Linu's favors for 6th boon
Killing Tiamat 80 times. That's grind.
That's the same quantity that the numbers of sigils you need for the previous boons. Except it comes from one 5-headed dragon instead of the sigils coming from one easy dragon at a time in several realms.
If it's a grind, Tiamat has to fall each time.
If on the other hand the devs want to make it a challenging skirmish, then the Boons requirements have to be changed.
So far when pugging Tiamat with my 20k main it usually fails. Tens fails in a row was yesterday, despite the strat being well-known
now. I also was successful twice, but it was when the weekly quest had proc-ed and everybody was donating for the quest, creating tiamat bonusses as a side effect.
You could donate to get some of those.
As you also noted, getting even to Tier 1 usually makes a huge difference in whether a typical group wins. It almost seems like we were supposed to figure out these two things go together.
It might be nice to have a personal bonus (maybe a two-day duration) for hitting the 1500 point. Maybe that would get more people's attention than the extra favor seems to.
And, while we are tinkering with the incentives, how about losing a favor if you leave an instance early? If I was Linu, I can assure you that would be the top of my list of dis-favored behavior. I'd add standing still in the entry, but it may be too hard to distinguish that from the lag.
1. No, I never suggested that.
2. Who do you think I was grouping with? Hint; friends and guildies. When ToT came out I hated it. An un-coordinated mess. Then someone figured out you could timed-que like we used to to stack GG parties (Luskan, no such option in Delz.). And we started doing it. I was off of work so I did an awful lot of runs. Zerg global time was 235 so you could pick a high number if you wanted to teach some newer people how to run the instance or a low timer if you had mostly vets who could group and attack swiftly. Do I always have 25 friendson? Nope. I keep odd hours. But /legit was using timed too so I could have a lot of fun runs. Yes fun. It did not feel grindy at all. Do you hear that Cryptic? I was enjoying your content for almost a week. It did not feel grindy and soul-ending.
Lately though zergheads are ignoring timers. Why plan a time when everyone is going to rush black and rotate right? So we would set up a timed entry and still get zergs in group. So fine I'll zerg, which is grindy as all get out, for a few more Linu and go back to hitting professions a couple times a day.
Tiamat is like pvp in this respect. You know in a couple of minutes that you'll fail no matter what, but you still have to attend the whole, pointless half-hour session.
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
The current way most folks form a group to get a Soul then drop out and zerg
I hate that
Yeah, amen to that. I know all too well that sinking feeling where the clerics take just a little bit longer than normal then the super-duper-mega-zerg on the black head turns out to be more of a medium tickle. Of course, with slick cleric work you could probably get to a 4th dragon head phase to compensate for the low DPS, but the team that is capable of the slick cleric work is the same one that doesn't need a 4th phase (or even a 3rd phase in one memorable zerg yesterday!)
I'm not a quitter so I'll battle on just for fun but it doesn't take long before you have 5 or 10 folk just standing at the camp fire, waiting for the end, and at that point it becomes very difficult to stay alive. But you have to stay to get the losers reward. So I've battled until I have a full collection of severe injuries, I've stood on the camp fire with the others, I've switched instances once to check that things are just as bad in other places (they are) and once, just for fun, I tried to pull the mobs to the camp fire. I managed to get them close enough to learn that those folk were very much not AFK and I also managed to "lure" a dragon breath attack to right in front of the fire but I have not yet managed a direct hit on the circle. I guess we all need goals in life.
Maybe that encounter needs a surrender button.
With good groups, we zerged the heads in 2 rounds. Two good players can protect the clerics at the sides, if needed.
Mediocre groups can kill her in 3 rounds. 4-5 ppl at the sides.
Full premades should be able to kill her in one round.
If you get to many AFK/ 10k+ ppl, you lose, period.
If they would allow full premade ques, min GS would not be a problem, bc. the premade can decide, if they want to carry weaker friends and 10k-13k PuGs would not stand a chance to finish the fight with a succsess, without the other player doing the work.
I hear folks say how easy it is but for the ones I joined we lost all but one
PROS
CONS
Yes to everything !
I'll love watching the forum/chat for people still annoyed about losing... and I'm curious about what the next request will be.. hehe
when can we expect to Q in with k from anywhere in WoD?
the new temple is empty and lacks the luster that tiamat deserves, alittle gold on the side ? for TIAMAT? when lostmauth an upity little wormling has liquid gold to bath in? yeah up the bar a little for tiamat
1) Low FPS. I decreased every setting I could think of and still get 1-2 fps. Sometimes I cannot move at all. Sometimes it runs smoothly for a while.
2) You depend on 24 other players, i.e. on luck.
If you aren't lucky and get into an instance with lots of powerful players you will lose. It doesn't help if my toons have a GS of 18-21k or if they are second in damage (I have ACT up and running).
It currently seems to make more sense to spend 25 minutes farming RP stuff and coffers in WoD than to do Tiamat. Otherwise none of my toons will ever get their artifact off hands.
Same here, many runs during week-end, zero success. And I tried a couple runs yesterday and Tiamat fell each time. Maybe Tiamat is ninja-buffed during week-ends. Or maybe the donations are better when it's not the week-end.
They did not nerf him ppl que at a certain time, to get grouped together. If you get into one of this groups, you will get a win. If you end up in a 10k PuG, you lose.
Akro, won't turning TT into party made instance lead to the worst outcome, GS inspect and instant kick from those who treat GS as a measure of how skilful you are?
While designing mechanic for the future changes of TT please take this in consideration and try to find a way to prevent kicking by premade parties or party members with whom player was randomly assigned during queueing TT.
Thx in advance.
And some of those AFKers are the aforementioned "elite". There are people that will win their rewards on the backs of others among all types of players. Asking that Tiamat be made only the playground of the elite is pointless. Unless they're willing to make this into a 5 team dungeon in which they can separate into epic and normal modes, I don't see any changes on that front.
But then again, this wasn't made to be your average "just throw more DPS at it" heroic encounter. I actually welcome the fact that some sort of actual strategy and planning is required.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
I suggested a solution to that earlier
i think the 1337 players will run with 10k gs just to do it
mmmm
yeah i have 24 others in mind right now that will once it all calms down
lol people should be able to choose who they want to play with. period.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com