This is literally the most wrong thing I've ever seen someone post on these forums. The best group I ended up with so far was 5 people in the 14k range. We could have killed our head in the first round if we wanted to, yet we still had time to assist an adjacent team that struggled to keep up. Gear Score is almost meaningless. Period. End of story.
Not sure why some people seem to think gs is meaningless. People put too much emphasis on it sure, but a difference between 14k and 19k is 5000 stats. That's a huge difference. It may not necessarily be spent efficiently, but it it's hardly a meaningful difference. I'd say 14k is an acceptable minimum, you don't really want people lower than that though.
People may have asked for 15k gs for t2s which is far from required, but clearly 10k gs is FAR too low for the raid.
Not sure why some people seem to think gs is meaningless. People put too much emphasis on it sure, but a difference between 14k and 19k is 5000 stats. That's a huge difference. It may not necessarily be spent efficiently, but it it's hardly a meaningful difference. I'd say 14k is an acceptable minimum, you don't really want people lower than that though.
Because at 14k, I have everything I need. I don't even know what I would do with an extra 5k stats. And I have no motivation to get my gear score much higher because my 13 and 14k characters easily keep up with and often surpass people in the 18-20k range.
This is literally the most wrong thing I've ever seen someone post on these forums. The best group I ended up with so far was 5 people in the 14k range. We could have killed our head in the first round if we wanted to, yet we still had time to assist an adjacent team that struggled to keep up. Gear Score is almost meaningless. Period. End of story.
Dream on, dream on. Lets see, High dps group, to make it easy, buff/debuff GF and DC and 3 HV CWs (renegade, SS thraum and fire mage). Normal 14k against BIS. You can get a damage boost by 3HV stacks 30%, 3 HP stacks 30% and GF DC buffs/debuffs additional ca. 150%, lets say 200%.
Here comes he difference (just CWs, bc. they would be the main dmg). BIS CW has DC artefact, 3 more dailies every 2 minutes, 11k+ power against 5-6k power, perf vorpal, erynie of Belial (10%crit servity), wild hunt rider (+10% dmg 50-80% of the time), blink dog (+5% dmg with combat advantage), cultist (mine is green, soon blue, in epic I would say 8% on dragons, while over 50%HP), ioun stone (+3000 stats). legendary int belt, +4 int=+4% dmg, leg. weapon, 10% more base dmg. Add leg offhand with its boosts and leg. necklace to the mix and I would estimate the dmg difference to be 100%, depending on crit luck it could be even higher.
Give the BIS GF a perf. terror and the DC a gr. plf and the difference will be still higher.
For sure, a good 14k group with the right setup will outdps a bad 19k PuG group anytime, but there are worlds btw. BIS players and 14k players. I am not talking about GS pushers, but minmax players who go for optimal group dps.
Zerg works, IF you have good buffers/ debuffers in your group and no exloit DC, causing the fights to lag so hard, you cant deal dmg anymore. If a DC uses the bugged feats, let the other DCs spam astral seal, it works wonders.
Because at 14k, I have everything I need. I don't even know what I would do with an extra 5k stats. And I have no motivation to get my gear score much higher because my 13 and 14k characters easily keep up with and often surpass people in the 18-20k range.
Power and HP have no softcap. The problem with pugs is that you should assume the worst and that they don't know their class as much. If you're a lower gs and know what you're doing you can out dps someone who has more gs and doesn't know their class as well. The same person with 5000 effective gs increase is a big improvement against himself without. When dealing with pugs you want the gs to bypass the short falls.
But apart from that 13-14k isn't that tough to get and is an insult to be able to get in the (in some ways) toughest fight there is before even being able to enter the fairly simple lostmauth. The thing is to be fair, don't go asking for high unnecessary demands, but there's nothing wrong with needing a little effort to be required to enter the raid without being completely carried.
Not sure why some people seem to think gs is meaningless. People put too much emphasis on it sure, but a difference between 14k and 19k is 5000 stats. That's a huge difference. It may not necessarily be spent efficiently, but it it's hardly a meaningful difference. I'd say 14k is an acceptable minimum, you don't really want people lower than that though.
People may have asked for 15k gs for t2s which is far from required, but clearly 10k gs is FAR too low for the raid.
At launch running dungeons often dealt with some GS elitists, who would dropout/kick people that didn't fit "their standard" for the dungeon. Are we going to go back to that again? Really? My daughter has used an 11.5k TR and beat it several times now. My 16.7k HR hasn't beaten it once, but it's not even been live a week. Sometimes GS isn't as accurate depending on enchants/feats/boons that a given player has active. Tactics/Lag/Dropouts have been the observed difference in many attempts. There are many factors involved with the Tiamat encounter as far as success or failure, and people will surely pick that subject to shreds elsewhere. I think allowing full parties to queue up together would alleviate some of the elitist attitudes about GS (people would be with who they choose to be with), but the flip side is you'd have guilds focused on farming just the Tiamat encounter once the Hoard is maxed to sell the Artifact drop (which is inevitable anyway, but it may be why they have the queue set up the way it is.) You also have to account for the lack of Hoard reclamation going on. As the level increases, it gives buffs to all participants, making the high GS toons even mightier, and leveling the playing field for the lower GS making it more survivable for them. Once people get the strategy down and start focusing on building the Hoard, the encounter will get easier and the rewards will be better. The biggest beef I have at present is the people raging in chat during the encounter, when others don't coordinate or agree with their strategy. After the encounter is different, it's understandable, there are differences of opinion and frustration as this is an hourly event. TL;DR.
"I don't know, I'm making it up as I go..." Featured Foundry Quest:Whispers of an Ancient Evil [v3] - NW-DQ4WKW6ZG Foundry Quest: Harper Chronicles: Blacklake - NW-DCPA4W2Q5
Not sure why some people seem to think gs is meaningless. People put too much emphasis on it sure, but a difference between 14k and 19k is 5000 stats. That's a huge difference. It may not necessarily be spent efficiently, but it it's hardly a meaningful difference. I'd say 14k is an acceptable minimum, you don't really want people lower than that though.
People may have asked for 15k gs for t2s which is far from required, but clearly 10k gs is FAR too low for the raid.
GS is not meaningless. It is however pretty far down the line on priorities. We are talking Tiamat here. So I want 2-3 high Gs people in my party? Sure, it helps. But if I have a choice between a 20K who is going to ignore coms and use his gem the second he gets nervous or a 12K who is going to use chat and sequence gems to max party efficiency? Even if he stacks only buff/ de-buffs and ignores his personal DPS? I will take the 12K every **** time. If I were to math it I would say outcome = Gsx 1.8 skill. skill being a combination of communication, planning, and adaptability. I mean I could nerf any of my toons to get another 1000-1500 GS but hey would actually perform worse than they do currently due to wasted points.
How comes in all your examples there is a 14k GS player who knows how to play and a 20k GS 'idiot'. First of all, the 20k guy at last knows how to do dailies, get boons and gear up.
If the 20k guy is not p2win, he plays longer, at last more effective, than the 14k guy, so he most likely knows his classes mechanics better than most 14k players.
If you are so sure about the skill of the low GS players, let me que with my 20k+ 'idiot' friends and you guys do the dungeon with your skilled 10-14k pals. Lets see, who is able to kill the dragon.
Lets face it. For every 10k PuG who killed the dragon, there is a 'elitist idiot' who did his work and than some, to compensate for the other guys lack of dps.
GS is not meaningless. It is however pretty far down the line on priorities. We are talking Tiamat here. So I want 2-3 high Gs people in my party? Sure, it helps. But if I have a choice between a 20K who is going to ignore coms and use his gem the second he gets nervous or a 12K who is going to use chat and sequence gems to max party efficiency? Even if he stacks only buff/ de-buffs and ignores his personal DPS? I will take the 12K every **** time. If I were to math it I would say outcome = Gsx 1.8 skill. skill being a combination of communication, planning, and adaptability. I mean I could nerf any of my toons to get another 1000-1500 GS but hey would actually perform worse than they do currently due to wasted points.
Meh gem usage isn't really that hard to understand apart from the black gem which can be easily misunderstood that I hope more will pick up on. When entering the raid I usually start inspecting people. 15-16k is what I say is average, 10-12k is abysmal, 13-14 is manageable and anything over 17k is probably a player I can count on to do dps. If there aren't enough high gs to counteract the low ones, I'll probably just exist and try for another instance, and I'm pretty tolerable. If you have gs, the chances are you care more about putting effort into your toon or worked for it whereas a low gs person is more likely to be clueless. Not always, but enough to give a basic judgement. Of course I do have my other preferences, say if you're a dc, I'd prefer you'd have a high prophet set instead of something with higher gs, and a hv set for cw. I won't hold it against you, but I'd say they're work the knock in gs for something vastly more helpful especially in a 25 man raid.
Anyway, tiamat is supposedly at the end of the campaign (though it doesn't quite work that way atm) so it's only common sense to have some for of gs requirement bump. Something as low as matching epic LoLs 13k would probably be enough for me not to have to worry if people will bring it down. Something that I'd currently rather not waste my time when I've missed out on 5 favours that I should have gotten from bugs. I don't really think a full t1/2 set, selection of boons, rank 6-7 enchants and preferably epic weapon or some sort with some for of enchant (preferably a lesser soulforged) is that much to expect as a pretty basic requirement (give or take) for something high end.
The ones that rage do show disgusting behaviour though as ian mentioned.
How comes in all your examples there is a 14k GS player who knows how to play and a 20k GS 'idiot'. First of all, the 20k guy at last knows how to do dailies, get boons and gear up.
If the 20k guy is not p2win, he plays longer, at last more effective, than the 14k guy, so he most likely knows his classes mechanics better than most 14k players.
If you are so sure about the skill of the low GS players, let me que with my 20k+ 'idiot' friends and you guys do the dungeon with your skilled 10-14k pals. Lets see, who is able to kill the dragon.
Lets face it. For every 10k PuG who killed the dragon, there is a 'elitist idiot' who did his work and than some, to compensate for the other guys lack of dps.
Generally speaking, 20k GS means bad choice of companions, enchants and gear. All in favor of boosting GS rather than effectiveness.
There IS exceptions but they aren't too common.
Note that 20K GS isn't hard to get for GF and GWF due to their feats, so I don't count them here.
0
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited December 2014
Please use the following thread for feedback on the Tiamat Encounter folks. Thanks!
Comments
Not sure why some people seem to think gs is meaningless. People put too much emphasis on it sure, but a difference between 14k and 19k is 5000 stats. That's a huge difference. It may not necessarily be spent efficiently, but it it's hardly a meaningful difference. I'd say 14k is an acceptable minimum, you don't really want people lower than that though.
People may have asked for 15k gs for t2s which is far from required, but clearly 10k gs is FAR too low for the raid.
Because at 14k, I have everything I need. I don't even know what I would do with an extra 5k stats. And I have no motivation to get my gear score much higher because my 13 and 14k characters easily keep up with and often surpass people in the 18-20k range.
I'm really happy about zerging, specially when someone calls "Don't Zerg OMG!".
Dream on, dream on. Lets see, High dps group, to make it easy, buff/debuff GF and DC and 3 HV CWs (renegade, SS thraum and fire mage). Normal 14k against BIS. You can get a damage boost by 3HV stacks 30%, 3 HP stacks 30% and GF DC buffs/debuffs additional ca. 150%, lets say 200%.
Here comes he difference (just CWs, bc. they would be the main dmg). BIS CW has DC artefact, 3 more dailies every 2 minutes, 11k+ power against 5-6k power, perf vorpal, erynie of Belial (10%crit servity), wild hunt rider (+10% dmg 50-80% of the time), blink dog (+5% dmg with combat advantage), cultist (mine is green, soon blue, in epic I would say 8% on dragons, while over 50%HP), ioun stone (+3000 stats). legendary int belt, +4 int=+4% dmg, leg. weapon, 10% more base dmg. Add leg offhand with its boosts and leg. necklace to the mix and I would estimate the dmg difference to be 100%, depending on crit luck it could be even higher.
Give the BIS GF a perf. terror and the DC a gr. plf and the difference will be still higher.
For sure, a good 14k group with the right setup will outdps a bad 19k PuG group anytime, but there are worlds btw. BIS players and 14k players. I am not talking about GS pushers, but minmax players who go for optimal group dps.
Zerg works, IF you have good buffers/ debuffers in your group and no exloit DC, causing the fights to lag so hard, you cant deal dmg anymore. If a DC uses the bugged feats, let the other DCs spam astral seal, it works wonders.
Power and HP have no softcap. The problem with pugs is that you should assume the worst and that they don't know their class as much. If you're a lower gs and know what you're doing you can out dps someone who has more gs and doesn't know their class as well. The same person with 5000 effective gs increase is a big improvement against himself without. When dealing with pugs you want the gs to bypass the short falls.
But apart from that 13-14k isn't that tough to get and is an insult to be able to get in the (in some ways) toughest fight there is before even being able to enter the fairly simple lostmauth. The thing is to be fair, don't go asking for high unnecessary demands, but there's nothing wrong with needing a little effort to be required to enter the raid without being completely carried.
At launch running dungeons often dealt with some GS elitists, who would dropout/kick people that didn't fit "their standard" for the dungeon. Are we going to go back to that again? Really? My daughter has used an 11.5k TR and beat it several times now. My 16.7k HR hasn't beaten it once, but it's not even been live a week. Sometimes GS isn't as accurate depending on enchants/feats/boons that a given player has active. Tactics/Lag/Dropouts have been the observed difference in many attempts. There are many factors involved with the Tiamat encounter as far as success or failure, and people will surely pick that subject to shreds elsewhere. I think allowing full parties to queue up together would alleviate some of the elitist attitudes about GS (people would be with who they choose to be with), but the flip side is you'd have guilds focused on farming just the Tiamat encounter once the Hoard is maxed to sell the Artifact drop (which is inevitable anyway, but it may be why they have the queue set up the way it is.) You also have to account for the lack of Hoard reclamation going on. As the level increases, it gives buffs to all participants, making the high GS toons even mightier, and leveling the playing field for the lower GS making it more survivable for them. Once people get the strategy down and start focusing on building the Hoard, the encounter will get easier and the rewards will be better. The biggest beef I have at present is the people raging in chat during the encounter, when others don't coordinate or agree with their strategy. After the encounter is different, it's understandable, there are differences of opinion and frustration as this is an hourly event. TL;DR.
Featured Foundry Quest: Whispers of an Ancient Evil [v3] - NW-DQ4WKW6ZG
Foundry Quest: Harper Chronicles: Blacklake - NW-DCPA4W2Q5
GS is not meaningless. It is however pretty far down the line on priorities. We are talking Tiamat here. So I want 2-3 high Gs people in my party? Sure, it helps. But if I have a choice between a 20K who is going to ignore coms and use his gem the second he gets nervous or a 12K who is going to use chat and sequence gems to max party efficiency? Even if he stacks only buff/ de-buffs and ignores his personal DPS? I will take the 12K every **** time. If I were to math it I would say outcome = Gsx 1.8 skill. skill being a combination of communication, planning, and adaptability. I mean I could nerf any of my toons to get another 1000-1500 GS but hey would actually perform worse than they do currently due to wasted points.
If the 20k guy is not p2win, he plays longer, at last more effective, than the 14k guy, so he most likely knows his classes mechanics better than most 14k players.
If you are so sure about the skill of the low GS players, let me que with my 20k+ 'idiot' friends and you guys do the dungeon with your skilled 10-14k pals. Lets see, who is able to kill the dragon.
Lets face it. For every 10k PuG who killed the dragon, there is a 'elitist idiot' who did his work and than some, to compensate for the other guys lack of dps.
Meh gem usage isn't really that hard to understand apart from the black gem which can be easily misunderstood that I hope more will pick up on. When entering the raid I usually start inspecting people. 15-16k is what I say is average, 10-12k is abysmal, 13-14 is manageable and anything over 17k is probably a player I can count on to do dps. If there aren't enough high gs to counteract the low ones, I'll probably just exist and try for another instance, and I'm pretty tolerable. If you have gs, the chances are you care more about putting effort into your toon or worked for it whereas a low gs person is more likely to be clueless. Not always, but enough to give a basic judgement. Of course I do have my other preferences, say if you're a dc, I'd prefer you'd have a high prophet set instead of something with higher gs, and a hv set for cw. I won't hold it against you, but I'd say they're work the knock in gs for something vastly more helpful especially in a 25 man raid.
Anyway, tiamat is supposedly at the end of the campaign (though it doesn't quite work that way atm) so it's only common sense to have some for of gs requirement bump. Something as low as matching epic LoLs 13k would probably be enough for me not to have to worry if people will bring it down. Something that I'd currently rather not waste my time when I've missed out on 5 favours that I should have gotten from bugs. I don't really think a full t1/2 set, selection of boons, rank 6-7 enchants and preferably epic weapon or some sort with some for of enchant (preferably a lesser soulforged) is that much to expect as a pretty basic requirement (give or take) for something high end.
The ones that rage do show disgusting behaviour though as ian mentioned.
Generally speaking, 20k GS means bad choice of companions, enchants and gear. All in favor of boosting GS rather than effectiveness.
There IS exceptions but they aren't too common.
Note that 20K GS isn't hard to get for GF and GWF due to their feats, so I don't count them here.
Tiamat Encounter - Community Feedback Thread
Safe travels,
Archmage Zebular of Mystryl
PWE Community Moderator
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