Well duh. They introduced green artifact gear with RNG nonesense that you have to spend millions of AD on to actually make it BIS instead of back then when you farmed dungeons to get the BIS ancient gear.
Feels a lot like the drug dealer/gambling casino business model. Get customers hooked on your product, and once they lose complete control of themselves, bilk them for all they are worth. Can't say that I am up in arms, yet, but I'd say that Criptic sure straddles the line of what is acceptable. I'd propose that users DO something to let them know when they've crossed it. For example, a day, or better yet, a week of protest where nobody logs in.
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited January 2015
I've posted this many times in the thread, but it's not really an effective "cash sink". It's a time sink. And a big one.
Which is fine. A cornerstone of MMOs is getting players to sink their time into something while new content is delivered, to try and keep them hooked in the game.
The big problems to me are:
A) The mechanics of refining are simply not fun. The system sucks, quite frankly. It doesn't feel connected to the character. Picking up little stones and tossing them into your stuff isn't very epic.
C) The system hurts people trying to play multiple characters. It forces people to HAVE to focus on one toon, to make them feel like they're progressing.
D) And from an RP perspective, I think using EXP makes a lot more in-game sense than all these piles and piles of magic stones that have somehow been created. Or see a minion explode and drop 3-4 pieces of trash green loot.
Obviously. Rogers said so himself. If there's no money to be had from a certain change, don't expect that change to happen.
As noble as that intention is, you'll never convince people to keep away from the game. Not even for an hour. Even if you'd convince 100% of the forum population to refrain from logging on (which you won't, but for the sake of argument let's accept you would), there's still the remaining 80% of the game's population that doesn't read the forums. And then there's the 10% whales with too much money on their hands that simply don't give a dam. I honestly doubt the game would even notice if the active forum members alone left the game for a few days.
Its just a blimp, heck I stopped spending money months ago when ToD came out, I hated it that much. But they dont care.
They would have to see a pretty drastic reduction for them to change something, game companies can be too stubborn sometimes.
This is an awesome idea but I have to agree with the pessimists who say it will never happen because there's no money to be had in it. In fact, it would lead to less money since it would mean fewer people get fed up with the grind and buying RP stones. Too bad, because as you say it makes a lot more sense that experience using a weapon will forge stronger bonds between the wielder and the weapon, and such a system seems much less cumbersome than tossing RP stones in 5 at a time too.
Really sad how the F2P model works against making the best game possible for the players sometimes.
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited January 2015
Personally, I'd like to see a Livestream where Arkomatik takes 4.6 million RP worth of Peridots and puts it in his weapon to get it to Legendary. If he can't finish before the hour is up, everyone wins a prize
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
0
silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
Personally, I'd like to see a Livestream where Arkomatik takes 4.6 million RP worth of Peridots and puts it in his weapon to get it to Legendary. If he can't finish before the hour is up, everyone wins a prize
pffft, he hits godemode on everything he does anyways.
Everyone hates the system (well maybe 2% like the current system) but it wont change, becuase people keep buying stuff.
Its simple as this, when people stop buying stuff, they will change it. However, you can be stubborn enough to harm the game enough that you wont get people back either.
Every person who buys something from them at this time, is just helping the encouragement of the system.
I've posted this many times in the thread, but it's not really an effective "cash sink". It's a time sink. And a big one.
I don't think can agree. By the time I get my hands on an artifact, a lot of guys already have them maxed out. How's that done without paying cash? At the risk of stating the obvious...again, with dungeon runs a thing of the past, does it not seem to you that there is a deliberate attempt to eliminate in-game ways of accumulating ADs? Dangling all that potential GS and then making it more difficult to take advantage of it by farming? (Longer cool downs.) How's that not a trend towards making investment in time less a factor, and investment in cash more of one?
I like this because it add a lot of usability to the system. I doubt it will shorten the necessary grind though. If they wanted to make it easier for players, they would have plethora options to add RP.
I think adding RP as a currency like black ice would have the same effect. You would need to have an option to convert your gems and enchantments to RP (salvage?) and feed your artifact stuff with the RP.
But no matter how implemented, we desperately need easier ways of feeding complete stacks into the gear...
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited January 2015
Well, if they're trying to monetize it, they're doing a bad job of it.
The only thing you can buy off the Zen market is Blood Rubies. Otherwise, you're just transferring Zen to AD, which doesn't exactly make them money. Think of it this way, if I put 1.5 million AD up on the ZAX and then you transfer roughly $30 of Zen to AD to buy that AD, wealth has just been transferred.
So now instead of spending real money to buy a Dragon Ioun stone off the Zen market, I just use the Zen I got from in game. So while Cryptic makes money on one transaction, they don't on the other.
Now imagine if there was a bunch of ways to get refinements points by buying them directly from Cryptic. You buy Zen, then buy directly from Cryptic. Now there's now Zen being injected into the game, so if I want to buy that Ioun Stone, I have to give Cryptic $30, too. So in the second transaction they make $60 instead of $30.
So if their plan is to monetize refinement, they're doing a terrible job of it
I don't think can agree. By the time I get my hands on an artifact, a lot of guys already have them maxed out. How's that done without paying cash? At the risk of stating the obvious...again, with dungeon runs a thing of the past, does it not seem to you that there is a deliberate attempt to eliminate in-game ways of accumulating ADs? Dangling all that potential GS and then making it more difficult to take advantage of it by farming? (Longer cool downs.) How's that not a trend towards making investment in time less a factor, and investment in cash more of one?
Zactamundo
However, I do have a ray of positive expectation. I do think they read and take in what the advanced players on the forum project and suggest. Why? It would be intelligent to do so. The mere fact that they have created this game in which its positive traits are potent enough to keep us returning in spite of the things we all agree we want upgraded in itself suggests intell. The elite business minds behind PW or Crypic are aware of and respect the phenomenon of critial mass...the magical- like number that if and when that number of people feel and think a certain way, it makes it easier for the entire mass (this games gaming pop in this instance) to swiftly synchronize to the same perceptions. When that happens....theres nothing that the business owners can do but ride out the resultant changes.
Take the NHL for example...they P-issed off so many of the fans in the last lock-out, and the longer it went, you could read between the headlines how the owners started to realize, that the product they have that addicted fans wil pay almost whatever it takes to consume it may begin to strongly in a quickening like way reverse if that line is drawn. Media went into overdrive to program the NHL consuming masses to feel ...positive.
Crypic knows about that line but they also know that fans being p-issed off is like the fish fighting on the hook...it causes the fish/game fan to lean in even more subconsciously...energy flows where attention goes. BUT if and when that fish awakens due to that hook being too intense... (the negative game experiences) then the domino effect can happen.
At the risk of coming off as a <censored>, if Cryptic were willing to reward us with refining points for experience, the current system would work just fine. Just load chests with black opals instead a stray peridot or worthless low rank enchantments?
GENIUS. 10/10 for you sir. This is how things should be.
Edit: Remove single item cap for refinement window. Instead of 5 slots which contain each 1 item, and having to farm clicks for xx hours to put in your 600 rank 4s and 6 stacks of peridot, let us place one STACK of item per slot.
This game is supposed to be fun, not a refinement simulator, and clicking the refinement window for hours is not what I call fun. Besides, the REAL work is acquiring the refining points, putting them in is just useless labor. This is yet another QoL improvement for the refining system.
I am the monk, martial skill transcends the battlefield
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
thumbs up!
I love all the ideas that can make the refining process become cheaper.
This refining system give ppl a goal to aim, at least... Im getting lost with the current system, especially every time i think about building a new char...
Let's keep this idea in the spotlight until mod 6. Experience comes from such diverse activities that it would go a long way towards make refining less of a chore and more of a reward for enjoying whichever aspect of the game appeals to you. Something needs change and this is a fantastic way to address the issue.
Let's keep this idea in the spotlight until mod 6. Experience comes from such diverse activities that it would go a long way towards make refining less of a chore and more of a reward for enjoying whichever aspect of the game appeals to you. Something needs change and this is a fantastic way to address the issue.
You think cryptic will be pressured to implement this in mod 6.5 / mod 7 if it was heavily spotlighted? Might not be a bad idea at all.
This is a good step. Of course, I'd still like to see challenging heroic dungeons that drop black opals.
I'm gonna repost what I said in the preview section. The idea is fine and all, but we still need to make dungeons more rewarding.
DDs and Skirmishes add little XP, so this system is flawed as the RP system in the way that you can't really progress while doing the stuff you'd like to do. In an exp based system you would need to revisit all those dailies we love so much to be most effective. Which means you are running around Sharandar killing mobs. Which is the same we are doing right now with the Dragon Hoard enchants.
So I don't see the improvement if nothing changes in the DD reward structure.
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited January 2015
Yep, central to this idea would be taking a pass at experience rewarded, especially at max level, for dungeons and encounters.
You want to make running content worthwhile. If I were in charge, I'd re-evaluate every "end game" activity, and make sure that the rewards vs the time made sense, but done so in such a way that the person who loves PvP vs. the person who loves Dungeons vs. the person who loves solo quests vs. the person who participates in the foundry still feels like they're being adequately rewarded for partaking in the content they enjoy most.
That's central to the entire idea: Let people feel rewarded by participating in the content they enjoy the most.
That's the secret sauce in the customer retention sandwich.
I love the idea... I love it very much, but somewhere deep inside me saying that, don't implement it.. Because this is much better than actually having dragon hoard. I can easily make 1k rp with this system. Not only that, daily quests give you up to 4k exp each. I'll admit, this idea is very smart and massive "+1" from me.. However, I love the hard way . I bet many players worked hard for their legendary. And this is like a knife into the chest to me. I want to see total RP reduced slightly than having easy rp farm option.
While this idea is good, imagine everyone getting their legendary within few days.
Maybe someone can prove me wrong. Just remember guys, we are talking about ultimate gear in the game. (With the current setup, getting 250k exp is really easy).
Not the oldest necro I've seen, but a good attempt!
Definitely not an Arc User.
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Damn this is so bittersweet...but if a thread has not been posted in for 30 days, it's considered a dead thread. Please start a fresh thread on the topic, as due to how the game changes, this discussion may no longer be relevant to the game.
Even though this is. But dems the rules around here, and no one's posts, no matter how amazing or ridiculously good looking that poster is, are above the rules.
Comments
Which is fine. A cornerstone of MMOs is getting players to sink their time into something while new content is delivered, to try and keep them hooked in the game.
The big problems to me are:
A) The mechanics of refining are simply not fun. The system sucks, quite frankly.
C) The system hurts people trying to play multiple characters. It forces people to HAVE to focus on one toon, to make them feel like they're progressing.
D) And from an RP perspective, I think using EXP makes a lot more in-game sense than all these piles and piles of magic stones that have somehow been created. Or see a minion explode and drop 3-4 pieces of trash green loot.
Its just a blimp, heck I stopped spending money months ago when ToD came out, I hated it that much. But they dont care.
They would have to see a pretty drastic reduction for them to change something, game companies can be too stubborn sometimes.
Really sad how the F2P model works against making the best game possible for the players sometimes.
pffft, he hits godemode on everything he does anyways.
Everyone hates the system (well maybe 2% like the current system) but it wont change, becuase people keep buying stuff.
Its simple as this, when people stop buying stuff, they will change it. However, you can be stubborn enough to harm the game enough that you wont get people back either.
Every person who buys something from them at this time, is just helping the encouragement of the system.
I think adding RP as a currency like black ice would have the same effect. You would need to have an option to convert your gems and enchantments to RP (salvage?) and feed your artifact stuff with the RP.
But no matter how implemented, we desperately need easier ways of feeding complete stacks into the gear...
The only thing you can buy off the Zen market is Blood Rubies. Otherwise, you're just transferring Zen to AD, which doesn't exactly make them money. Think of it this way, if I put 1.5 million AD up on the ZAX and then you transfer roughly $30 of Zen to AD to buy that AD, wealth has just been transferred.
So now instead of spending real money to buy a Dragon Ioun stone off the Zen market, I just use the Zen I got from in game. So while Cryptic makes money on one transaction, they don't on the other.
Now imagine if there was a bunch of ways to get refinements points by buying them directly from Cryptic. You buy Zen, then buy directly from Cryptic. Now there's now Zen being injected into the game, so if I want to buy that Ioun Stone, I have to give Cryptic $30, too. So in the second transaction they make $60 instead of $30.
So if their plan is to monetize refinement, they're doing a terrible job of it
$20 for 150,000 refinement points seems pretty stiff considering there are 7 slots for artifacts and each of those requires 3-4 million in RP.
Zactamundo
However, I do have a ray of positive expectation. I do think they read and take in what the advanced players on the forum project and suggest. Why? It would be intelligent to do so. The mere fact that they have created this game in which its positive traits are potent enough to keep us returning in spite of the things we all agree we want upgraded in itself suggests intell. The elite business minds behind PW or Crypic are aware of and respect the phenomenon of critial mass...the magical- like number that if and when that number of people feel and think a certain way, it makes it easier for the entire mass (this games gaming pop in this instance) to swiftly synchronize to the same perceptions. When that happens....theres nothing that the business owners can do but ride out the resultant changes.
Take the NHL for example...they P-issed off so many of the fans in the last lock-out, and the longer it went, you could read between the headlines how the owners started to realize, that the product they have that addicted fans wil pay almost whatever it takes to consume it may begin to strongly in a quickening like way reverse if that line is drawn. Media went into overdrive to program the NHL consuming masses to feel ...positive.
Crypic knows about that line but they also know that fans being p-issed off is like the fish fighting on the hook...it causes the fish/game fan to lean in even more subconsciously...energy flows where attention goes. BUT if and when that fish awakens due to that hook being too intense... (the negative game experiences) then the domino effect can happen.
Edit: Remove single item cap for refinement window. Instead of 5 slots which contain each 1 item, and having to farm clicks for xx hours to put in your 600 rank 4s and 6 stacks of peridot, let us place one STACK of item per slot.
This game is supposed to be fun, not a refinement simulator, and clicking the refinement window for hours is not what I call fun. Besides, the REAL work is acquiring the refining points, putting them in is just useless labor. This is yet another QoL improvement for the refining system.
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
I love all the ideas that can make the refining process become cheaper.
This refining system give ppl a goal to aim, at least... Im getting lost with the current system, especially every time i think about building a new char...
Traxus Atheanes GF
Bastiel Atheanes DC
Ellara Atheanes CW
Keira Atheanes TR
Sarasin Atheanes SW
Jerkface McGee HR
-MANTARA- OP
You think cryptic will be pressured to implement this in mod 6.5 / mod 7 if it was heavily spotlighted? Might not be a bad idea at all.
This is a good step. Of course, I'd still like to see challenging heroic dungeons that drop black opals.
DDs and Skirmishes add little XP, so this system is flawed as the RP system in the way that you can't really progress while doing the stuff you'd like to do. In an exp based system you would need to revisit all those dailies we love so much to be most effective. Which means you are running around Sharandar killing mobs. Which is the same we are doing right now with the Dragon Hoard enchants.
So I don't see the improvement if nothing changes in the DD reward structure.
You want to make running content worthwhile. If I were in charge, I'd re-evaluate every "end game" activity, and make sure that the rewards vs the time made sense, but done so in such a way that the person who loves PvP vs. the person who loves Dungeons vs. the person who loves solo quests vs. the person who participates in the foundry still feels like they're being adequately rewarded for partaking in the content they enjoy most.
That's central to the entire idea: Let people feel rewarded by participating in the content they enjoy the most.
That's the secret sauce in the customer retention sandwich.
I +1 or +100 this SO much!
Amen!
Within reason of course, since what some people seem to love the most is griefing other players.
While this idea is good, imagine everyone getting their legendary within few days.
Maybe someone can prove me wrong. Just remember guys, we are talking about ultimate gear in the game. (With the current setup, getting 250k exp is really easy).
Even though this is. But dems the rules around here, and no one's posts, no matter how amazing or ridiculously good looking that poster is, are above the rules.