Feedback: Divinity, DC survival and Time management
I'd like to discuss a little about how time is the greatest challenge to DC's survivability.
What are some of the challenges in an RPG? Some RPGs have mana, some have hit points, some have cooldowns. Neverwinter, being a real time twitch based RPG have all of the above, plus the biggest challenge of all- time (and her ugly cousin, lag, but that's a topic for another day).
Two at-wills, two dailys, three encounters, three pips of divinity, three ways to spend three stacks of empowerment. What do they have in common? To quote Gandalf, "All that we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us".
Divinity and empowerment comes down to one thing. What to do and when.
The DC is already in a time constrained role. Our battlefield positioning is crucial to maximise support and protection for ourselves and for our allies. We have some of the longest cooldown encounters in the game (Prophecy of Doom, Astral Shield), we have some of the longest interrupt-able casting animation in the game (Prophecy of Doom). We have even the longest casting at will (Blessing of Battle). Couple that with the lowest mobility and highest stamina to mobility ratio and it's a wonder we ever get anything done right.
It's not that I'm unhappy with a lot of the new changes. I like the potential and the possibilities it promises. Divinity absolutely needed to be gained faster. Except for one thing. We don't have time for all that in a twitch based real time RPG.
In business terms time is money. In DC terms time is blood, time is survival.
Divinity-empowerment vs DC survival
The DC is generally in a good place when running with a decent group. They can choose to tank/heal/DPS/buff/debuff whatever, they bring enough of everything that there's almost always a good niche they can fill. That's because we're not running for our lives, we can protect others and gain and spend divinity freely.
Where the DC struggles however, is when you have an ailing party, or in situations where you are the soloing a tough situation/ beaing the main kiter/last man alive. The problem? Divinity and Mobility.
Divinity is inversely correlated to mobility. If you want to gain divinity you have to stand still and spam and cast. You want empowerment? Stand and spam and spam some more.
Two problems arise when melee mobs get near you. The first is red zones, often in the form of point blank area of effect spells (PBAoE). The second is control effects (cc). To counter both dictates you must be on the run, either walk out, or for the latter case, dodge out. Time spent dodging is time not casting, which means no divinity which means no mechanics for preservation let alone healing or looking after the party. Currently we can rely on the little bit of encounter divinity to get us through a rotation or two for a divine encounter. With the proposed mod 5 changes it's not possible. The DC is ok right up until the point where you have a zero or negative divinity gain. Losing divinity sets up an immediate negative spiral of losing mobility to gain divinity culminating in death. It's just a matter of time. Don't believe me? Go and take on a pack or two in a Heroic Encounter. If you don't kill fast enough you're likely doomed.
Feedback
So where does this idea go? All the promise of faster divinity and strategy and combos and empowerment is for naught, if we can't gain and keep divinity in the first place. Gaining divinity, casting divinity encounters to empower normal encounters significantly increases the demand for casting time. This has a significant impact on DC survivability when kiting or trying to get out of an unfavourable situation, for PvE, and especially PvP.
I'm not asking for you to throw the system out. However we need ways to make up for lost time. We need a background divinity gain. I propose that while combat is active we have a diminishing background divinity gain at the rate of ~6 seconds per pip on the first pip 8 seconds per pip on the second and ~12 seconds for the third pip (or have it max out at 2 pips). That way we indirectly gain time on not having to spam at wills and have a choice of empowering encounters.
Failing this, I propose we bring back the divinity gain from using encounters in normal mode.
Of course, oh-so-long-and-interruptible-cast times and cooldowns still need a rework. BoH changes are a great step forward. Please keep it up.
I'd hate to see all the new changes become a white elephant. Help us now, while there's still time.
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It's not a support class. Clerics can be Leaders and Controllers.
Since most of the damage comes from DoTs and AoE powers, it's totally inside the Controller role and the 4th edition's version of the Clerics.
I disagree with this wholeheartedly. Yes, clerics may be leaders, but this isn't about what edition version cleric they've adopted. The fact remains that they have COMPLETELY messed up the original PvP spec. They SHOULDN'T be able to destroy GWFs in 3-4 moves whether they be PvP or PvE.
No one will remember what I say here, nor what @galacticgush or what @cixija has stated, but IT HAS TO BE KNOWN THAT THIS DPS SPEC WILL CAUSE A MAJOR IMBALANCE IN PVP AND PVE!
As AP generation is more more difficult with those changes, daily powers need a rework to make them having a better impact when casted: i suggest for exemple to put HoF damage back and granting HG pick damage prevention...
Nevertheless, the first priority should be, please gentlemancrush, to rework heroic feats!
being a cleric for me is all about healing , i was enjoying this part of my role, i expect u neverwinter to make us more able to heal but u know, u actually made it worse !!!!
plz fix astra shiled and add more healing for clerics who only like to heal
after all that our main role in the game pllleassse more healing!!!!!!!!:(:D:eek:
Feedback: Divinity, DC survival and Time management
....
It's not that I'm unhappy with a lot of the new changes. I like the potential and the possibilities it promises. Divinity absolutely needed to be gained faster. Except for one thing. We don't have time for all that in a twitch based real time RPG.
In business terms time is money. In DC terms time is blood, time is survival.
Divinity-empowerment vs DC survival
...
Divinity is inversely correlated to mobility. If you want to gain divinity you have to stand still and spam and cast. You want empowerment? Stand and spam and spam some more.
Two problems arise when melee mobs get near you. The first is red zones, often in the form of point blank area of effect spells (PBAoE). The second is control effects (cc). To counter both dictates you must be on the run, either walk out, or for the latter case, dodge out. Time spent dodging is time not casting, which means no divinity which means no mechanics for preservation let alone healing or looking after the party.
....
I'd hate to see all the new changes become a white elephant. Help us now, while there's still time.[/COLOR]
That was my first reaction to the divinity change: I said that they better fix the at-will powers to be more usable. They are not really usable for 2 reasons - too slow, and don't do much.
Damage is minor, AP gain is negligible - every DC gains divinity using Sunburst or DL or some other AoE, or spammable encounter like HW. That is taken away with the new mechanic (spammable Divine encounters are GREAT for fast heal/damage output - keep that!).
I was going to post something about this, but Kaelac basically said what I wanted to say.
If some of our mobility is not improved, the only at-will worth using will be DO Brand of the Sun for the passive divinity tick.
Even that is small.
Animation/Mobility/Divinity Issue
I can see the following solutions: faster at-will casting animations, add passive divinity gain (either constant in combat or for HoT effects), or add AoE component to at-wills that will generate divinity.
Sunburst
I recant my previous statement. Divine spammable SB is fine and the normal version push is fine. It's a good intro to divinity management for new DCs. Keep it.
Divinity gain through at will only is VERY UNPRODUCTIVE, especially in PvP.
In PvP, we get interrupted all the time while using at-will because the casting animation is SO RIDICULOUSLY SLOW. You rarely get 3 empowered stacks because of that.
If you're against a TR 1v1, that means practically NO DIVINITY GAIN because they stay in stealth most of the time, you can't even target them,
Suggestions:
1) Buff Divine Fortune to 25-33% per rank.
2) Divinity gain through encounter use.
3) Gain divinity overtime (someone suggested 1 dip every 8 secs).
4) Unused empowered stacks give back divinity after they expire.
5) Reduce the amount of divinity required to cast (maybe half a dip for some spells).
Divinity gain through at will only is VERY UNPRODUCTIVE, especially in PvP.
In PvP, we get interrupted all the time while using at-will because the casting animation is SO RIDICULOUSLY SLOW. You rarely get 3 empowered stacks because of that.
If you're against a TR 1v1, that means practically NO DIVINITY GAIN because they stay in stealth most of the time, you can't even target them,
Suggestions:
1) Buff Divine Fortune to 25-33% per rank.
2) Divinity gain through encounter use.
3) Gain divinity overtime (someone suggested 1 dip every 8 secs).
4) Unused empowered stacks give back divinity after they expire.
5) Reduce the amount of divinity required to cast (maybe half a dip for some spells).
I second these suggestions. The DC is hideously hindered when out of combat and having no divinity. The lack of gaining some through encounters means that should a DC end combat with little divinity, they are seriously handicapped in the next encounter.
In any case, feedback so far:
The cast times on *most* DC encounters are extraordinarily high. This creates enormous breaks in combat when you not only have to switch in and out of divinity (which obviously takes time between tabbing) but manage empowered stacks and Divinity levels. This combat fluidity is further exacerbated by aforementioned cast times. This is most seen in Daunting Light, Break the Spirit (especially the missile speed), Astral Shield, and Divine Searing Light. This problem of Combat fluidity is even worse by the slow at will speeds as noted by bvira which is in effect a problem of Divinity Generation.
DC Heroic feats need some incredible attention. I suggest taking placing healing step within the line of heroic feats as only 2 dodges is becoming a burden in PvP and many PvE instances when having to dodge multiple AoE's. The rest of them need serious attention as the rewards they provide are paltry. A good example is Templar's Domain that provides 30% more Armor Penetration for 5 seconds once every 5 mins. Consider changing this to 20% with constant uptime. Numerous other feats are both sadly and hilariously underpowered.
[3]With the current design of Empowered Stacks, the Divine at-wills are currently the most useless things in the entire class. They have the worst scaling of all cleric abilities and using them literally prevents your ability to play to full potential as they actively hinder acquiring empowered stacks. Please, DO NOT IGNORE THIS. If anything, these should *also*be used to build Divinity as the damage and healing they provide pales in comparison to Encounters.
Edit: Removed the feedback on stun reduction of Break the Spirit. It needs to remain that way.
Now, for current bugs.
Edit: Reported bugs now seem to be functioning fine after testing.
I read all this days , and i read again ,47 pages, i have spent more of 20 hours in test server, and i have see only one : we going to be one spell encounter caster , we dont have time to cast anything else . We must cast 6-8 at will + 3 divinity + 1 in empoweer , and between of this we must dodge 2-3 times and run - jump .After the circle start again 6-8 at will + 3 divinity + 1 in empower , 2-3 dodge run jump run if we are alive we conunue , our game going to be like this.I forgot and one dailly in every 2 circles. We have only too chose about what we cast , nothing else . No more compo , if we go in compo the heal or debuff-buff is not enough. The heal path is not enough if we want to do daillys, i dont know if the dps path is enough for heal - buf people in party . My opinion is : the new system is carbage . I stay one week in new module only to test it , in reall time with my friends , 70 percent after i say bye and thanks to neverwinter people (players and developers) . Sorry for my mistakes in English.
The biggest problem for the DC is they are not needed. You can do all current content with no DC and it is more efficient to just run with another dps or cw.
I believe the niche for the DC should be buffer/debuffer and heals. I think the party buffs should be the best in the game. Strong damage mitigation, hp shields, dps boosts and mob debuffs. These have to be good enough to make up for not having another dps or cw, otherwise, there will never be a spot for DCs.
You have removed the large AE HoTs like hallowed ground and made a class that needs to be micro managed. Why would you make the heals All HoTs or instants, thats just dumb. There are situations for both.
The battle cleric is going to be held to the temptation SW standard and currently there is no comparison. The SW does good dps and passively heals the entire grp, but has no utility. The dps cleric needs to do far more dps and provide party utility and heals.
I would like to see Avatar changed to an ability that is dependent on the DCs range to target. So at range 70 and higher there is no bonus to damage, but, as the DC gets closer, the damage is increased to a max of 80% within 10 of target. Also, when an enemy is hit they send out a burst of radiant damage around them equal to a percentage of the DCs weapon damage, this burst also heals allies for the same amount. So a DC within range 10 of target would create a radiant burst that damaged enemies for 80% weapon damage and healed allies for the same amount. This would encourage the battle cleric to be right in the thick of things and provide some additional damage and heals passively to the grp.
I think the DC needs a couple signature spells to make them desirable in grps. Divine glow could be changed to have an AE similar to hollowed ground, currently the AE is very small. This spell really does it all and could be a good staple. A different spell (battle chant) that added a large hp shield based on the DCs max hps, and while the shield is active provided increased DR and damage for the grp.
I really believe the DC needs some major changes from its current form in preview. It is so fussy and unwieldy to play and most important there is nothing in this new build that makes the DC needed in a group.
PvP is simply not fun as a Cleric, does this overhaul change our fortune for the better? I don't think so. All it does is it just delays the inevitable death by mere seconds.
Why is Cleric unviable in PvP? Simply put it's a severe lack of dps, cc, and survivability. All of it.
Now most Cleric skill involve moving circles on the ground, dragging that small circle to where you want it, wait a few seconds for the skill to activate, and see your dps hitting air. Even when the skill connect it does laughable dps. Is it any wonder Cleric dps suck? We need real hard hitting skill that does huge spike dps with immediate effects. And not 1 such skill but minimum 3.
Cleric's CC is laughable (if it can even be call CC). A less than 1 sec stun or chain...A knockback that does negligible damage with long cooldown. We need REAL CC. How long is dazing strike? How long is the smoke bomb? How long is Singularity? How long is force choke? How long is freeze ray? How long is Takedown?.... Cleric need real CC that last just as long if not longer since we do not have the dps other class possess. It weird that such dps classes are given the best CC when it should be the other way round.
Survivability. For a class that tout healing, we can't even save our own hide with self healing. Why isn't dps class lacking dps or do more damage to themselves? Why is stealth class sneaking so well? For starter, Righteousness should amplify how much we heal ourselves, not others. Or you can give it to SW who holds the title of real healer now. Second Cleric should be wearing armor, not chainmail. And why aren't we using a shield in our spare hand? We cast divine spells for god sake. Why don't our spells do more damage to undead? Why don't our wisdom bonus give us enough CC resistance?
Exaltation is our sole effective life saver, DON'T RUIN IT.
Suggestions: - Feat Prestigious Exaltation: Divine exaltation now grants damage and control immunity for 0.6/1.2/1.8/2.4/3 seconds (give it 15 secs CD).
- Bring back blue bubble visual effect.
...
Cleric's CC is laughable (if it can even be call CC). A less than 1 sec stun or chain...A knockback that does negligible damage with long cooldown. We need REAL CC. How long is dazing strike? How long is the smoke bomb? How long is Singularity? How long is force choke? How long is freeze ray? How long is Takedown?.... Cleric need real CC that last just as long if not longer since we do not have the dps other class possess. It weird that such dps classes are given the best CC when it should be the other way round.
...
true
in pvp DC control is so bad that those new changes wont do a lot
is it possible to give soothing light control resist? like the shaman in kessel
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clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
true
in pvp DC control is so bad that those new changes wont do a lot
is it possible to give soothing light control resist? like the shaman in kessel
How cool would it be if they had things like saving throws from D&D, for a cleric you could be given options to increase your save chances through certain feats and your wisdom score to increase the chances to cleanse magic and stuns from enemies like the Illithid (representing psychic attacks).
Feedback:
Heroic Feats:
Greater Fortune: Your Wisdom now grants 1/2/3% more healing and increase the amount of bonus damage Wisdom gives you by 2/4/6%.
Initiate of the Faith : Your Stamina regenerates 5/10/15/20/25% faster
Bountiful Fortune : Gain 5/10/15/20/25% more Divine Power.
Encounter:
Prophecy of Doom: Target has lowered damage resistance for 10 seconds. If the target is still alive when this effect expires they take damage. If the target dies while affected by this power you gain AP and the power is instantly recharged. I think casting time this encounter very slow. It's should be casting more quickly.
Daunting Light: Summon a powerful column of light that burns the target.
Class Features:
Divine Fortune: You build an additional 10% more Divine Power.
Prophetic Action: Seeing into the future, you are able to shield all damage from one Encounter,Daily or red area(void zone) every 60 seconds.
I dont think having to build full divinity, cast Exaltation three time in divine mode, then again in empowered mode is a good example of the DC being a good class. Really how long did all that take in combat? and that protects one person besides the DC? IMO thats awful.
Saying that all the other classes are doing super high DPS is just proving my point. When did all the mobs die? while your trying to build divinity or maybe the second cast of Exaltation? This is the DCs big contribution? Most classes now run with 10%+ lifesteal, combined with high dps and burst heal in pots (artifact), making the DC unnecessary.
The new system is so clunky and takes way too much time.
Personally, I wish they would go back to just 2 modes. Regular and divinity mode. "Empowerment" would come from how many casts of a spell you make in divine mode. So fully empowered exaltaion would be 3 casts in divine mode. And the most important part is in divine mode there is no cast time or refresh time (you can cast while moving). I think this would remove the clunkiness and make the DC combat more fluid.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited October 2014
Hey guys,
First of all...look the thread is clean! Yay! Let's keep from theorycrafting, debating or discussing other people's feedback from this point forward.
Secondly, I am sad to say our DC Advocate has stepped down. As such Akromatik has asked me to step up until a permanent replacement can be found. I just sent off the compiled feedback for the week so thanks for continuing to give your feedback.
And finally I wanted to discuss one bit of feedback I did send to the developers: Sunburst.
This has actually been pretty debated in here so I would like to explain why I submitted feedback the PvP crowd might not agree with at first.
When I first saw the change to Sunburst I screamed "no!" like Darth Vader. It really makes the power more detrimental than helpful more often than not. I didn't think anybody would like that change yet many of you do citing it as excellent CC for PvP.
As somebody who played a cleric almost exclusively from Alpha to M2 I can see how the increased amount of CC would be helpful but I also have a lot of experience working cooperatively with groups. I can promise you I would be really wealthy if I had a dollar for every time I got chastised by friends and guild members for using divine sunburst in both PvE and PvP.
Now in my case they didn't chastise me because I used the knockback poorly; I almost always use divine sunburst effectively in both PvE and PvP. I also use it often although more in PvE than PvP. No I didn't get scolded for the execution of the spell on my end, I almost always accomplish my goals with it. I get reprimanded because of how my success reduces theirs.
I can't count how many rogues I have sent flying down bottomless pits due to Duelists' Flurry. How many times GWF's have missed IBS. How many shards have ended up harmlessly in the middle of nowhere. How many near death enemies have managed to survive due to the gap sunburst gave them.
Me successfully knocking enemies off ledges, saving overwhelmed allies or knocking enemies off a PvP node right before they capture it often results in consequences for my allies or my team. I still use Divine Sunburst a lot but part of the skill in being a good cleric is knowing when to use it and when not to use it.
I can definitely see the appeal of having a bit more CC in PvP but a knockback is not the right solution. Having a 100% knockback on Sunburst would either cause most clerics not to use it at all or refrain from using it as often as they should in both PvE and PvP. Knockbacks are situation and situation effects do not get homes on power bars especially in PvP.
As such the feedback I submitted was that the basic Sunburst should not be a knockback. The ability to choose whether the situation needed a knockback was what made Sunburst so great to begin with.
However I did agree that the additional CC in PvP would help clerics out greatly. I am afraid I am going to be lazy and not cite who came up with this suggestion originally but I feel like a stun (even a short one) would be much more beneficial to both PvE and PvP.
Stuns would provide the much needed CC in PvP and even provide a small reduction in damage (stunned opponents can't attack) both in PvE and PvP while not discouraging the use of it to heal allies.
So that was very long so:
TL;DR: The feedback I submitted regarding sunburst was that the non-divine knockback should be a stun instead to allow players to decide which would be more beneficial depending on the situation while still maintaining the increased CC on the PvP side.
Hopefully the PvP players can view this not only as a compromise but a superior option because knocking people back in PvP is often detrimental in both PvE and PvP.
Hey guys,
Secondly, I am sad to say our DC Advocate has stepped down. As such Akromatik has asked me to step up until a permanent replacement can be found. I just sent off the compiled feedback for the week so thanks for continuing to give your feedback.
Is that feedback public - or will it be public at some point? Also, are you only compiling the feedback for the power, feat and play mechanism changes, or also for other cleric-related issues - like complaints about buggy cleric gear and feedback on the new DC artifact equipment or the new armor set ?
Hehe, I wondered why it went from 39 (at last view) to 32 pages. Thanks for stepping up, Ambisinisterr.
I tinkered a little with a new import-and-upgrade of my cleric, mainly to look at the change to Empowered. I like the flexibility in tactics now being granted with Empowered being universal, but there is still one thing I feel is important to cover...
Feedback: Empowered
Some kind of metered indicator on the Divinity bar would be extremely useful to determine how many charges of Empowered we have built up. A meter indicating time left before it's gone would be nice too. I know that this is essentially indicated in the buffs list and has that text popup, but Empowered is a primary class mechanic. It HAS to be front and center to be effectively used, especially for those new to Clerics or being thrown into the waters without having checked out what's going on in Preview after the patch goes live.
I may have stated as much before, but I wanted to state so again because of a bit of experience I had. I was experimenting with various combinations of powers and Empowerment, mostly to get used to the "new groove" of Clericing. And the main impression I got was that I felt that a lot opened up for me in terms of tactics. But I had some trouble staying focused on my situational awareness, my cooldowns, and how many charges of Divinity I had consumed. As it stands now, the easy-to-remember tactic is just to throw all three charges in at once. But that may not be the best tactic at all times, and without a visual indicator of number and time remaining, we run into the Eastwood scenario where we aren't sure if we shot five bullets or six.
It would require modified art assets, placements, etc. and I imagine that's a huge pain to shove in when Clerics are still effectively in draft mode and things are in a frequent state of flux, but I really do hope to see something once the rough edges are smoothed out and it's time to do final refinements. In the end, yeah, maybe we can live just fine without it, but it would make the experience that much more smooth properly done.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
edited October 2014
Some feedback from playing through the Well of Dragons with my DC:
The big one: We really need a better, visual indicator of empowerment status - the whole empowerment mechanism is quite annoying, and for me it does not make the class more fun to play - however, the annoyance could be reduced substantially if it was easier to see the current empowerment status - a floating text just does not work. I would suggest changing the colors of the encounter power icons or something lake - at least put an "obvious" indicator in that area.
About solo play as a DC: Now, I have a pretty well-geared DC - close to 20K GS, in fact, and there is no solo content that is even remotely challenging - however, some of the solo content has been a bit slow - "Ghost stories" for example. This is different on preview - as an old barbarian character of mine in a pen-n-paper D&D game would have put it "Me kill stuff fast. Me like". At least if you go Righteous, the DPS increases so much that playing a Solo DC is no longer annoyingly slow, so good job there.
Hopefully the PvP players can view this not only as a compromise but a superior option because knocking people back in PvP is often detrimental in both PvE and PvP.
It's not a compromise it's making the spell worse than it is. Pushing stuff/people into pits can be a key part of the strategy as a DC. I can't count how many kills i've done in gauntlgrym pushing people into spikes. And throwing monsters off ledges can be very handy sometimes. Back when i was a **** cleric i litteraly saved runs pushing spiders.
So um it's a very partial feedback if you don't include the pvp community's feedback. Please refrain yourself to take such initiatives, it's not fair. You're not serving the players, just your own interests.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
It's not a compromise it's making the spell worse than it is. Pushing stuff/people into pits can be a key part of the strategy as a DC. I can't count how many kills i've done in gauntlgrym pushing people into spikes.
That's what divine mode is and always have been for.
It's NOT beneficial to be throwing things around 100% of the time which is the issue with saying it is good for PvP. If you step back from thinking of the situational usefulness (which always existed) and think of how knockbacks effect other players it's really more or less weeding out shortsights.
The choice to knockback is extremely useful. 100% knockbacks will cause the power to never be slotted in PvE or PvP. It's only useful on paper when you think about the situational usefulness. Go play a DC and try using divine Sunburst 100% of the time in PvE and PvP and enjoy the stream of complaints if you care to see why this feedback is shortsighted.
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited October 2014
Is all this moot if divine sunburst has *no* knockback effect? I seriously barely ever use that spell because I like chains better, so I didn't try the new version out at all. But I keep thinking I've read that it's reversed now.
TL;DR: The feedback I submitted regarding sunburst was that the non-divine knockback should be a stun instead to allow players to decide which would be more beneficial depending on the situation while still maintaining the increased CC on the PvP side.
Hopefully the PvP players can view this not only as a compromise but a superior option because knocking people back in PvP is often detrimental in both PvE and PvP.
This is fair, as long as you made it clear that it is your own desire and suggestion as a player, not as the advocate.
I'll just go with whatever they decide, but my play-testing at Preview is much more enjoyable with the default knockback. However, if they disable that default knockback then they will need to put the divine knockback back. I'm not sure how they'll do this with the zero-cooldown (not to mention it will make the zero cooldown a moot point for Sunburst). It sounds like your suggestion is to remove all knockback abilities completely, or (holyshightsters) relinquish it to Empowerment mode - ummm, no thanks.
Me successfully knocking enemies off ledges, saving overwhelmed allies or knocking enemies off a PvP node right before they capture it often results in consequences for my allies or my team. I still use Divine Sunburst a lot but part of the skill in being a good cleric is knowing when to use it and when not to use it.
This is exactly why I am against the sunburst change and my reasoning. I dont want to see the knockback go, but I dont want it to be on sunburst by default, but rather back in divinity.
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aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
edited October 2014
I haven't been able to do much testing: did they take the knockback out of divine SB? If so, it will confuse my fingers for awhile, but I'll eventually get used to it. I use it mainly too build divinity (which it can no longer do), a quick heal, or to spread HP
Been testing pretty extensively, both playing with builds and rotations and playing in the new zone and HE's. And I have to say... I'm not a fan. I get that the dev's feel that DC's weren't dynamic enough (which I vehemently disagree with), but I really feel like this whole thing was just a big, complicated nerf. Making us use our at-wills for anything other than buffing was a rather cruel way to do it. What ever happened to the days when balance was made by making other options more attractive, rather than reworking the whole class to try to mandate a different playstyle? If you wanted us to use at-wills, why didn't you just make them worth using? Make Astral Seals stack, give Lance of Faith a damage boost and speed up the animation, give Sacred Flame an AOE splash damage, etc. On live, I hit Blessing of Battle only often enough to keep the buff up, and Astral Seal between encounters. That's it. Our at-wills are really effective as buffs. They are not at all effective at spamming. But this new system forces us to use them as such. On top of that, some of our most potent contributions to the team were nerfed. I get it, everyone used the same rotation. But it wasn't too long ago when that was not a sign that they needed a nerf, but rather a sign that the other options just weren't as good. I ran the new Tiamat encounter(?) last night, with a GF, GWF and CW, and another DC. With Astral Shield on the ground, Blessing of Battle, Exaltation, and Divine Glow all in play; my entire team was wiped in (roughly) one shot. So what's the point? In fact, before the CW showed up, we just weren't getting anywhere. There's a difference between punishing and challenging gameplay: and that's giving the player the tools to work with. I had all the tools on the table. And I was completely ineffective. In fact, the only class in this game with the proper tools is the CW. This is ridiculous.
Making my gameplay more "dynamic" isn't giving me the tools I need. The new feat trees are nice, and I think they're a step in the right direction. But nerfing our encounters and divinity gain is exactly opposite. And if this game is gonna continue to try to increase the challenge by ramping up the damage and HP pools of the mobs and bosses, at least give someone other than CW's the tools to contest it. What good is healing when the new content one-shots you? We're to the point that if it isn't being controlled and your dodges are down, you die. Despite my dropping every mitigation power I have at my disposal.
The role of the DC should be firmly defined by its given tools. The only thing that got better on preview was my ability to solo content (via the DPS tree). The only group content I've been able to do is the Tiamat encounter, and so far I'm thoroughly disappointed. I just don't have the tools I need. And what's worse, you've given me more tools, but put them and the old ones further out of reach.
I think our powers need a hard look. This game hasn't needed healers since Mod 1. But we've been able to maintain our usefulness as buffers/ debuffers. Seriously. Healing is not our defining toolkit. We need to be able to prevent the team from getting one-shotted. Not be helpless to prevent it, and then equally helpless to recover. I don't even care so much about debuffing, because until CW's damage gets toned down, we're just giving them bigger numbers. It's not at all necessary. But I'd like to see a huge buff to our ability to mitigate damage. I want there to be a significant difference between having a DC in the group and not. As it stands now, (without a CW in the group) the content has the potential to be very challenging. But without the proper tools, it's just punishing.
TL;DR... Please reconsider the way we gain divinity. If you want us to spam at-wills, make it attractive to do so. Don't make it so our only useful tools are out of reach unless we do so. And buff our encounters, but make it creative and each one consistent with its base power.
For example;
Sun Burst: Knocks away and damages enemies and heals allies.
Sun Burst (Divinity): Same as above, but also grants a stacking stamina gain buff to allies.
Sun Burst (Empowered): Same as base, but also dazes ememies for 1 second per empowered stack.
Chains of Blazing Light: Damages and immobilizes enemies caught in marked area.
Chains of Blazing Light (Divinity): Same as above, also slows enemies for 3 seconds after the immobilize effect.
Chains of Blazing Light (Empowered): Additional immobilize duration and damage per stack.
Exaltation: Grants a significant damage resistance buff and regeneration to an ally.
Exaltation (Divinity): Revives a downed ally, granting the same buffs as above. Additional casts will either revive others or extend the buff duration on original target by 1 second.
Exaltation (Empowered): Heals and grants an immunity bubble (muh blue bubble!) to an ally for 1 second per stack.
Note on this: I don't like that Healing Word and Exaltation heal both the target and myself. Feels like cheating. Make me work for it, so that if no target is selected it applies to me. Then we might be able to talk about getting rid of Righteousness
Astral Shield: Big golden circle, buffs damage resistance of those standing in it.
Astral Shield (Divinity): Big Blue Circle of Safetyness, buffs damage resistance and provides a fixed amount of mitigation (equal to 3% of caster's max HP). Additional casts will reinforce the original circle with additional fixed mitigation stacks.
Astral Shield (Empowered): Big golden circle same as base, but each empowered stack grants additional regeneration.
Divine Glow: Damages and significantly weakens (lowered damage output) of enemies caught in the blast. (Also increase AOE size to 20')
Divine Glow (Divinity): Same as above, but also disorients enemies. (I'm thinking the big purple question marks like when a TR stealths.)
Divine Glow (Empowered): Same as base, but duration extended for 1 sec per stack.
I genuinely don't want this to be mistaken as the oh so common MUH CLASS IS GONNA BE USELESS nonsense. I just really want the DC to be able to contest the new content. So many threads are going on and on about how ZOMG WE WANT CHALLENGING CONTENT, but if you notice; they're almost unanimously playing CW's. Try PUG'ing without a CW in CN with a 10-14k GS group. Not easy. But extremely fun. We all have the tools. But we actually have to use them. This is what I look at when I talk about balance. With the new content, I just don't know how it can be done. Not with the tools provided. And this is just punishing.
The knockback effect on normal sunburst is really not a good idea, with all the changes that is happening to the Cleric, IMO I think that that the knockback effect should have been taken away and be replace by some other type of effect, stun, daze etc. Done a lot of testing on the preview server and it is really not a good encounter to use. In PVP the tenacity on the others cause this spell to be basically nullified, so there is no point to slot it in PVP.
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arandompandaMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 107Arc User
edited October 2014
Blue mode Sunburst has zero knockback. It's exactly like normal Sunburst is now - but with zero cooldown. The discernment of when to use Sunburst's knockback situationally hasn't changed. It will still be necessary to discern on the fly just like it is now.
Simplest method is to machine-gun 3 blue-mode Sunbursts back to back then use the global empower stack for a better, heavy hitting dps spell or maybe for an empowered emergency heal like Bastion of Health. The majority of the time it'd be a waste using the empower stack on (the 4th) Sunburst when there'd likely be much better damage dealing spells also slotted. But the choice of whether to use or not use knockback mode is still there. That has not changed.
Other classes have knockbacks too that can and have caused my DC's spells to go astray and also caused my BF's GF grief - sending him flying right over the edge into oblivion along with the knockbacked boss - yet I've never seen calls by those self-same classes to the devs to "please remove knockback from Encounter XYZ because it's causing other classes problems in groups".
By the new DC Advocate's logic their classes should have knockback removed as well - for the same reasons outlined. Their use of knockback makes DC's encounters much less effective as well. There are countless times I've cast chains only to see a CW knock the adds away just as they were about to step into it...completely wasting my Encounter. Knockback from any class can and often does make other classes gameplay less effective.
Feedback: Sunburst
There are some alternate possibilities for Sunburst.
Normal mode: Keep the knockback
Blue Mode: Keep the zero-knockback
Empowered Mode: REMOVE the knockback but replace it with some other ability to go with the heal. Perhaps an empowered Sunburst could give both the 15% per stack boost in healing on PTR and give a brief CC immunity instead of knockback. This could give PvP people something they've been asking for while giving PvE-only players something closer to what they're used to on Live (example: they mess up and hit Sunburst a 4th time unintentionally).
Comments
It's not a support class. Clerics can be Leaders and Controllers.
Since most of the damage comes from DoTs and AoE powers, it's totally inside the Controller role and the 4th edition's version of the Clerics.
I'd like to discuss a little about how time is the greatest challenge to DC's survivability.
What are some of the challenges in an RPG? Some RPGs have mana, some have hit points, some have cooldowns. Neverwinter, being a real time twitch based RPG have all of the above, plus the biggest challenge of all- time (and her ugly cousin, lag, but that's a topic for another day).
Two at-wills, two dailys, three encounters, three pips of divinity, three ways to spend three stacks of empowerment. What do they have in common? To quote Gandalf, "All that we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us".
Divinity and empowerment comes down to one thing. What to do and when.
The DC is already in a time constrained role. Our battlefield positioning is crucial to maximise support and protection for ourselves and for our allies. We have some of the longest cooldown encounters in the game (Prophecy of Doom, Astral Shield), we have some of the longest interrupt-able casting animation in the game (Prophecy of Doom). We have even the longest casting at will (Blessing of Battle). Couple that with the lowest mobility and highest stamina to mobility ratio and it's a wonder we ever get anything done right.
It's not that I'm unhappy with a lot of the new changes. I like the potential and the possibilities it promises. Divinity absolutely needed to be gained faster. Except for one thing. We don't have time for all that in a twitch based real time RPG.
In business terms time is money. In DC terms time is blood, time is survival.
Divinity-empowerment vs DC survival
The DC is generally in a good place when running with a decent group. They can choose to tank/heal/DPS/buff/debuff whatever, they bring enough of everything that there's almost always a good niche they can fill. That's because we're not running for our lives, we can protect others and gain and spend divinity freely.
Where the DC struggles however, is when you have an ailing party, or in situations where you are the soloing a tough situation/ beaing the main kiter/last man alive. The problem? Divinity and Mobility.
Divinity is inversely correlated to mobility. If you want to gain divinity you have to stand still and spam and cast. You want empowerment? Stand and spam and spam some more.
Two problems arise when melee mobs get near you. The first is red zones, often in the form of point blank area of effect spells (PBAoE). The second is control effects (cc). To counter both dictates you must be on the run, either walk out, or for the latter case, dodge out. Time spent dodging is time not casting, which means no divinity which means no mechanics for preservation let alone healing or looking after the party. Currently we can rely on the little bit of encounter divinity to get us through a rotation or two for a divine encounter. With the proposed mod 5 changes it's not possible. The DC is ok right up until the point where you have a zero or negative divinity gain. Losing divinity sets up an immediate negative spiral of losing mobility to gain divinity culminating in death. It's just a matter of time. Don't believe me? Go and take on a pack or two in a Heroic Encounter. If you don't kill fast enough you're likely doomed.
Feedback
So where does this idea go? All the promise of faster divinity and strategy and combos and empowerment is for naught, if we can't gain and keep divinity in the first place. Gaining divinity, casting divinity encounters to empower normal encounters significantly increases the demand for casting time. This has a significant impact on DC survivability when kiting or trying to get out of an unfavourable situation, for PvE, and especially PvP.
I'm not asking for you to throw the system out. However we need ways to make up for lost time. We need a background divinity gain. I propose that while combat is active we have a diminishing background divinity gain at the rate of ~6 seconds per pip on the first pip 8 seconds per pip on the second and ~12 seconds for the third pip (or have it max out at 2 pips). That way we indirectly gain time on not having to spam at wills and have a choice of empowering encounters.
Failing this, I propose we bring back the divinity gain from using encounters in normal mode.
Of course, oh-so-long-and-interruptible-cast times and cooldowns still need a rework. BoH changes are a great step forward. Please keep it up.
I'd hate to see all the new changes become a white elephant. Help us now, while there's still time.
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I disagree with this wholeheartedly. Yes, clerics may be leaders, but this isn't about what edition version cleric they've adopted. The fact remains that they have COMPLETELY messed up the original PvP spec. They SHOULDN'T be able to destroy GWFs in 3-4 moves whether they be PvP or PvE.
No one will remember what I say here, nor what @galacticgush or what @cixija has stated, but IT HAS TO BE KNOWN THAT THIS DPS SPEC WILL CAUSE A MAJOR IMBALANCE IN PVP AND PVE!
Nevertheless, the first priority should be, please gentlemancrush, to rework heroic feats!
plz fix astra shiled and add more healing for clerics who only like to heal
after all that our main role in the game
pllleassse more healing !!!!!!!!:(:D:eek:
That was my first reaction to the divinity change: I said that they better fix the at-will powers to be more usable. They are not really usable for 2 reasons - too slow, and don't do much.
Damage is minor, AP gain is negligible - every DC gains divinity using Sunburst or DL or some other AoE, or spammable encounter like HW. That is taken away with the new mechanic (spammable Divine encounters are GREAT for fast heal/damage output - keep that!).
I was going to post something about this, but Kaelac basically said what I wanted to say.
If some of our mobility is not improved, the only at-will worth using will be DO Brand of the Sun for the passive divinity tick.
Even that is small.
Animation/Mobility/Divinity Issue
I can see the following solutions: faster at-will casting animations, add passive divinity gain (either constant in combat or for HoT effects), or add AoE component to at-wills that will generate divinity.
Sunburst
I recant my previous statement. Divine spammable SB is fine and the normal version push is fine. It's a good intro to divinity management for new DCs. Keep it.
In PvP, we get interrupted all the time while using at-will because the casting animation is SO RIDICULOUSLY SLOW. You rarely get 3 empowered stacks because of that.
If you're against a TR 1v1, that means practically NO DIVINITY GAIN because they stay in stealth most of the time, you can't even target them,
Suggestions:
1) Buff Divine Fortune to 25-33% per rank.
2) Divinity gain through encounter use.
3) Gain divinity overtime (someone suggested 1 dip every 8 secs).
4) Unused empowered stacks give back divinity after they expire.
5) Reduce the amount of divinity required to cast (maybe half a dip for some spells).
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
Youtube channel (PvE/PvP)
I second these suggestions. The DC is hideously hindered when out of combat and having no divinity. The lack of gaining some through encounters means that should a DC end combat with little divinity, they are seriously handicapped in the next encounter.
In any case, feedback so far:
[3]With the current design of Empowered Stacks, the Divine at-wills are currently the most useless things in the entire class. They have the worst scaling of all cleric abilities and using them literally prevents your ability to play to full potential as they actively hinder acquiring empowered stacks. Please, DO NOT IGNORE THIS. If anything, these should *also*be used to build Divinity as the damage and healing they provide pales in comparison to Encounters.
Edit: Removed the feedback on stun reduction of Break the Spirit. It needs to remain that way.
Now, for current bugs.
Edit: Reported bugs now seem to be functioning fine after testing.
I believe the niche for the DC should be buffer/debuffer and heals. I think the party buffs should be the best in the game. Strong damage mitigation, hp shields, dps boosts and mob debuffs. These have to be good enough to make up for not having another dps or cw, otherwise, there will never be a spot for DCs.
You have removed the large AE HoTs like hallowed ground and made a class that needs to be micro managed. Why would you make the heals All HoTs or instants, thats just dumb. There are situations for both.
The battle cleric is going to be held to the temptation SW standard and currently there is no comparison. The SW does good dps and passively heals the entire grp, but has no utility. The dps cleric needs to do far more dps and provide party utility and heals.
I would like to see Avatar changed to an ability that is dependent on the DCs range to target. So at range 70 and higher there is no bonus to damage, but, as the DC gets closer, the damage is increased to a max of 80% within 10 of target. Also, when an enemy is hit they send out a burst of radiant damage around them equal to a percentage of the DCs weapon damage, this burst also heals allies for the same amount. So a DC within range 10 of target would create a radiant burst that damaged enemies for 80% weapon damage and healed allies for the same amount. This would encourage the battle cleric to be right in the thick of things and provide some additional damage and heals passively to the grp.
I think the DC needs a couple signature spells to make them desirable in grps. Divine glow could be changed to have an AE similar to hollowed ground, currently the AE is very small. This spell really does it all and could be a good staple. A different spell (battle chant) that added a large hp shield based on the DCs max hps, and while the shield is active provided increased DR and damage for the grp.
I really believe the DC needs some major changes from its current form in preview. It is so fussy and unwieldy to play and most important there is nothing in this new build that makes the DC needed in a group.
Why is Cleric unviable in PvP? Simply put it's a severe lack of dps, cc, and survivability. All of it.
Now most Cleric skill involve moving circles on the ground, dragging that small circle to where you want it, wait a few seconds for the skill to activate, and see your dps hitting air. Even when the skill connect it does laughable dps. Is it any wonder Cleric dps suck? We need real hard hitting skill that does huge spike dps with immediate effects. And not 1 such skill but minimum 3.
Cleric's CC is laughable (if it can even be call CC). A less than 1 sec stun or chain...A knockback that does negligible damage with long cooldown. We need REAL CC. How long is dazing strike? How long is the smoke bomb? How long is Singularity? How long is force choke? How long is freeze ray? How long is Takedown?.... Cleric need real CC that last just as long if not longer since we do not have the dps other class possess. It weird that such dps classes are given the best CC when it should be the other way round.
Survivability. For a class that tout healing, we can't even save our own hide with self healing. Why isn't dps class lacking dps or do more damage to themselves? Why is stealth class sneaking so well? For starter, Righteousness should amplify how much we heal ourselves, not others. Or you can give it to SW who holds the title of real healer now. Second Cleric should be wearing armor, not chainmail. And why aren't we using a shield in our spare hand? We cast divine spells for god sake. Why don't our spells do more damage to undead? Why don't our wisdom bonus give us enough CC resistance?
Suggestions:
- Feat Prestigious Exaltation: Divine exaltation now grants damage and control immunity for 0.6/1.2/1.8/2.4/3 seconds (give it 15 secs CD).
- Bring back blue bubble visual effect.
true
in pvp DC control is so bad that those new changes wont do a lot
is it possible to give soothing light control resist? like the shaman in kessel
How cool would it be if they had things like saving throws from D&D, for a cleric you could be given options to increase your save chances through certain feats and your wisdom score to increase the chances to cleanse magic and stuns from enemies like the Illithid (representing psychic attacks).
Heroic Feats:
Greater Fortune: Your Wisdom now grants 1/2/3% more healing and increase the amount of bonus damage Wisdom gives you by 2/4/6%.
Initiate of the Faith : Your Stamina regenerates 5/10/15/20/25% faster
Bountiful Fortune : Gain 5/10/15/20/25% more Divine Power.
Encounter:
Prophecy of Doom: Target has lowered damage resistance for 10 seconds. If the target is still alive when this effect expires they take damage. If the target dies while affected by this power you gain AP and the power is instantly recharged. I think casting time this encounter very slow. It's should be casting more quickly.
Daunting Light: Summon a powerful column of light that burns the target.
Class Features:
Divine Fortune: You build an additional 10% more Divine Power.
Prophetic Action: Seeing into the future, you are able to shield all damage from one Encounter,Daily or red area(void zone) every 60 seconds.
Saying that all the other classes are doing super high DPS is just proving my point. When did all the mobs die? while your trying to build divinity or maybe the second cast of Exaltation? This is the DCs big contribution? Most classes now run with 10%+ lifesteal, combined with high dps and burst heal in pots (artifact), making the DC unnecessary.
The new system is so clunky and takes way too much time.
Personally, I wish they would go back to just 2 modes. Regular and divinity mode. "Empowerment" would come from how many casts of a spell you make in divine mode. So fully empowered exaltaion would be 3 casts in divine mode. And the most important part is in divine mode there is no cast time or refresh time (you can cast while moving). I think this would remove the clunkiness and make the DC combat more fluid.
First of all...look the thread is clean! Yay! Let's keep from theorycrafting, debating or discussing other people's feedback from this point forward.
Secondly, I am sad to say our DC Advocate has stepped down. As such Akromatik has asked me to step up until a permanent replacement can be found. I just sent off the compiled feedback for the week so thanks for continuing to give your feedback.
And finally I wanted to discuss one bit of feedback I did send to the developers: Sunburst.
This has actually been pretty debated in here so I would like to explain why I submitted feedback the PvP crowd might not agree with at first.
When I first saw the change to Sunburst I screamed "no!" like Darth Vader. It really makes the power more detrimental than helpful more often than not. I didn't think anybody would like that change yet many of you do citing it as excellent CC for PvP.
As somebody who played a cleric almost exclusively from Alpha to M2 I can see how the increased amount of CC would be helpful but I also have a lot of experience working cooperatively with groups. I can promise you I would be really wealthy if I had a dollar for every time I got chastised by friends and guild members for using divine sunburst in both PvE and PvP.
Now in my case they didn't chastise me because I used the knockback poorly; I almost always use divine sunburst effectively in both PvE and PvP. I also use it often although more in PvE than PvP. No I didn't get scolded for the execution of the spell on my end, I almost always accomplish my goals with it. I get reprimanded because of how my success reduces theirs.
I can't count how many rogues I have sent flying down bottomless pits due to Duelists' Flurry. How many times GWF's have missed IBS. How many shards have ended up harmlessly in the middle of nowhere. How many near death enemies have managed to survive due to the gap sunburst gave them.
Me successfully knocking enemies off ledges, saving overwhelmed allies or knocking enemies off a PvP node right before they capture it often results in consequences for my allies or my team. I still use Divine Sunburst a lot but part of the skill in being a good cleric is knowing when to use it and when not to use it.
I can definitely see the appeal of having a bit more CC in PvP but a knockback is not the right solution. Having a 100% knockback on Sunburst would either cause most clerics not to use it at all or refrain from using it as often as they should in both PvE and PvP. Knockbacks are situation and situation effects do not get homes on power bars especially in PvP.
As such the feedback I submitted was that the basic Sunburst should not be a knockback. The ability to choose whether the situation needed a knockback was what made Sunburst so great to begin with.
However I did agree that the additional CC in PvP would help clerics out greatly. I am afraid I am going to be lazy and not cite who came up with this suggestion originally but I feel like a stun (even a short one) would be much more beneficial to both PvE and PvP.
Stuns would provide the much needed CC in PvP and even provide a small reduction in damage (stunned opponents can't attack) both in PvE and PvP while not discouraging the use of it to heal allies.
So that was very long so:
TL;DR: The feedback I submitted regarding sunburst was that the non-divine knockback should be a stun instead to allow players to decide which would be more beneficial depending on the situation while still maintaining the increased CC on the PvP side.
Hopefully the PvP players can view this not only as a compromise but a superior option because knocking people back in PvP is often detrimental in both PvE and PvP.
Is that feedback public - or will it be public at some point? Also, are you only compiling the feedback for the power, feat and play mechanism changes, or also for other cleric-related issues - like complaints about buggy cleric gear and feedback on the new DC artifact equipment or the new armor set ?
I tinkered a little with a new import-and-upgrade of my cleric, mainly to look at the change to Empowered. I like the flexibility in tactics now being granted with Empowered being universal, but there is still one thing I feel is important to cover...
Feedback: Empowered
Some kind of metered indicator on the Divinity bar would be extremely useful to determine how many charges of Empowered we have built up. A meter indicating time left before it's gone would be nice too. I know that this is essentially indicated in the buffs list and has that text popup, but Empowered is a primary class mechanic. It HAS to be front and center to be effectively used, especially for those new to Clerics or being thrown into the waters without having checked out what's going on in Preview after the patch goes live.
I may have stated as much before, but I wanted to state so again because of a bit of experience I had. I was experimenting with various combinations of powers and Empowerment, mostly to get used to the "new groove" of Clericing. And the main impression I got was that I felt that a lot opened up for me in terms of tactics. But I had some trouble staying focused on my situational awareness, my cooldowns, and how many charges of Divinity I had consumed. As it stands now, the easy-to-remember tactic is just to throw all three charges in at once. But that may not be the best tactic at all times, and without a visual indicator of number and time remaining, we run into the Eastwood scenario where we aren't sure if we shot five bullets or six.
It would require modified art assets, placements, etc. and I imagine that's a huge pain to shove in when Clerics are still effectively in draft mode and things are in a frequent state of flux, but I really do hope to see something once the rough edges are smoothed out and it's time to do final refinements. In the end, yeah, maybe we can live just fine without it, but it would make the experience that much more smooth properly done.
The big one: We really need a better, visual indicator of empowerment status - the whole empowerment mechanism is quite annoying, and for me it does not make the class more fun to play - however, the annoyance could be reduced substantially if it was easier to see the current empowerment status - a floating text just does not work. I would suggest changing the colors of the encounter power icons or something lake - at least put an "obvious" indicator in that area.
About solo play as a DC: Now, I have a pretty well-geared DC - close to 20K GS, in fact, and there is no solo content that is even remotely challenging - however, some of the solo content has been a bit slow - "Ghost stories" for example. This is different on preview - as an old barbarian character of mine in a pen-n-paper D&D game would have put it "Me kill stuff fast. Me like". At least if you go Righteous, the DPS increases so much that playing a Solo DC is no longer annoyingly slow, so good job there.
It's not a compromise it's making the spell worse than it is. Pushing stuff/people into pits can be a key part of the strategy as a DC. I can't count how many kills i've done in gauntlgrym pushing people into spikes. And throwing monsters off ledges can be very handy sometimes. Back when i was a **** cleric i litteraly saved runs pushing spiders.
So um it's a very partial feedback if you don't include the pvp community's feedback. Please refrain yourself to take such initiatives, it's not fair. You're not serving the players, just your own interests.
That's what divine mode is and always have been for.
It's NOT beneficial to be throwing things around 100% of the time which is the issue with saying it is good for PvP. If you step back from thinking of the situational usefulness (which always existed) and think of how knockbacks effect other players it's really more or less weeding out shortsights.
The choice to knockback is extremely useful. 100% knockbacks will cause the power to never be slotted in PvE or PvP. It's only useful on paper when you think about the situational usefulness. Go play a DC and try using divine Sunburst 100% of the time in PvE and PvP and enjoy the stream of complaints if you care to see why this feedback is shortsighted.
Neverwinter Census 2017
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This is fair, as long as you made it clear that it is your own desire and suggestion as a player, not as the advocate.
I'll just go with whatever they decide, but my play-testing at Preview is much more enjoyable with the default knockback. However, if they disable that default knockback then they will need to put the divine knockback back. I'm not sure how they'll do this with the zero-cooldown (not to mention it will make the zero cooldown a moot point for Sunburst). It sounds like your suggestion is to remove all knockback abilities completely, or (holyshightsters) relinquish it to Empowerment mode - ummm, no thanks.
This is exactly why I am against the sunburst change and my reasoning. I dont want to see the knockback go, but I dont want it to be on sunburst by default, but rather back in divinity.
Making my gameplay more "dynamic" isn't giving me the tools I need. The new feat trees are nice, and I think they're a step in the right direction. But nerfing our encounters and divinity gain is exactly opposite. And if this game is gonna continue to try to increase the challenge by ramping up the damage and HP pools of the mobs and bosses, at least give someone other than CW's the tools to contest it. What good is healing when the new content one-shots you? We're to the point that if it isn't being controlled and your dodges are down, you die. Despite my dropping every mitigation power I have at my disposal.
The role of the DC should be firmly defined by its given tools. The only thing that got better on preview was my ability to solo content (via the DPS tree). The only group content I've been able to do is the Tiamat encounter, and so far I'm thoroughly disappointed. I just don't have the tools I need. And what's worse, you've given me more tools, but put them and the old ones further out of reach.
I think our powers need a hard look. This game hasn't needed healers since Mod 1. But we've been able to maintain our usefulness as buffers/ debuffers. Seriously. Healing is not our defining toolkit. We need to be able to prevent the team from getting one-shotted. Not be helpless to prevent it, and then equally helpless to recover. I don't even care so much about debuffing, because until CW's damage gets toned down, we're just giving them bigger numbers. It's not at all necessary. But I'd like to see a huge buff to our ability to mitigate damage. I want there to be a significant difference between having a DC in the group and not. As it stands now, (without a CW in the group) the content has the potential to be very challenging. But without the proper tools, it's just punishing.
TL;DR... Please reconsider the way we gain divinity. If you want us to spam at-wills, make it attractive to do so. Don't make it so our only useful tools are out of reach unless we do so. And buff our encounters, but make it creative and each one consistent with its base power.
For example;
Sun Burst: Knocks away and damages enemies and heals allies.
Sun Burst (Divinity): Same as above, but also grants a stacking stamina gain buff to allies.
Sun Burst (Empowered): Same as base, but also dazes ememies for 1 second per empowered stack.
Chains of Blazing Light: Damages and immobilizes enemies caught in marked area.
Chains of Blazing Light (Divinity): Same as above, also slows enemies for 3 seconds after the immobilize effect.
Chains of Blazing Light (Empowered): Additional immobilize duration and damage per stack.
Exaltation: Grants a significant damage resistance buff and regeneration to an ally.
Exaltation (Divinity): Revives a downed ally, granting the same buffs as above. Additional casts will either revive others or extend the buff duration on original target by 1 second.
Exaltation (Empowered): Heals and grants an immunity bubble (muh blue bubble!) to an ally for 1 second per stack.
Note on this: I don't like that Healing Word and Exaltation heal both the target and myself. Feels like cheating. Make me work for it, so that if no target is selected it applies to me. Then we might be able to talk about getting rid of Righteousness
Astral Shield: Big golden circle, buffs damage resistance of those standing in it.
Astral Shield (Divinity): Big Blue Circle of Safetyness, buffs damage resistance and provides a fixed amount of mitigation (equal to 3% of caster's max HP). Additional casts will reinforce the original circle with additional fixed mitigation stacks.
Astral Shield (Empowered): Big golden circle same as base, but each empowered stack grants additional regeneration.
Divine Glow: Damages and significantly weakens (lowered damage output) of enemies caught in the blast. (Also increase AOE size to 20')
Divine Glow (Divinity): Same as above, but also disorients enemies. (I'm thinking the big purple question marks like when a TR stealths.)
Divine Glow (Empowered): Same as base, but duration extended for 1 sec per stack.
I genuinely don't want this to be mistaken as the oh so common MUH CLASS IS GONNA BE USELESS nonsense. I just really want the DC to be able to contest the new content. So many threads are going on and on about how ZOMG WE WANT CHALLENGING CONTENT, but if you notice; they're almost unanimously playing CW's. Try PUG'ing without a CW in CN with a 10-14k GS group. Not easy. But extremely fun. We all have the tools. But we actually have to use them. This is what I look at when I talk about balance. With the new content, I just don't know how it can be done. Not with the tools provided. And this is just punishing.
PS: INB4 L2P and such flame
Simplest method is to machine-gun 3 blue-mode Sunbursts back to back then use the global empower stack for a better, heavy hitting dps spell or maybe for an empowered emergency heal like Bastion of Health. The majority of the time it'd be a waste using the empower stack on (the 4th) Sunburst when there'd likely be much better damage dealing spells also slotted. But the choice of whether to use or not use knockback mode is still there. That has not changed.
Other classes have knockbacks too that can and have caused my DC's spells to go astray and also caused my BF's GF grief - sending him flying right over the edge into oblivion along with the knockbacked boss - yet I've never seen calls by those self-same classes to the devs to "please remove knockback from Encounter XYZ because it's causing other classes problems in groups".
By the new DC Advocate's logic their classes should have knockback removed as well - for the same reasons outlined. Their use of knockback makes DC's encounters much less effective as well. There are countless times I've cast chains only to see a CW knock the adds away just as they were about to step into it...completely wasting my Encounter. Knockback from any class can and often does make other classes gameplay less effective.
Feedback: Sunburst
There are some alternate possibilities for Sunburst.
Normal mode: Keep the knockback
Blue Mode: Keep the zero-knockback
Empowered Mode: REMOVE the knockback but replace it with some other ability to go with the heal. Perhaps an empowered Sunburst could give both the 15% per stack boost in healing on PTR and give a brief CC immunity instead of knockback. This could give PvP people something they've been asking for while giving PvE-only players something closer to what they're used to on Live (example: they mess up and hit Sunburst a 4th time unintentionally).