I just want to say, I rarely play my cleric and mainly play on my main (a GWF). I play as a glass cannon, and if I'm running something like VT/MC/CN, I cannot survive without that cleric. Your buffs and debuffs seriously help me maintain that top DPS spot. Your class has taken a beating over the different mods, but somehow you guys always tend to make the best of it and keep your role in the group. Seriously, thank you guys for playing your class right and giving me the ability to play mine well.
Dragon Server
Ragnos Fireborn - 18.7k GWF Half-Elf Eva Darkblood - 13.8k TR Elf Venger Force of Evil - 13.7k CW Tiefling Azaghal Belegost - 16.5k GF Dwarf Drak'ar - 13.3k HR Drow Roghthar Darkspawn - 11.5k SW Human
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited September 2014
Zuthuul, have you run with a geared temp yet doing those runs? I would like to know your experience difference in such.
In terms of buffing, would you prefer a GF or a DC at the moment?
This only discusses the in group play, doesn't touch the pvp issues in current meta, nor the slow pace of daily play (twice as long as the hr/cw/gwf and even my sw now! my 16k dc isnt a match for my not even 12k sw in terms of speed of daily pace) Nor can you explain to me why both my GWF/HR are double the tankiness value of my 3k defense AC specced DC with double the AC of my HR and 1/3 more then my GWF dies so very easily compared to those two classes. I dont need a explanation as to why THEY are superior, I need a explanation as to why the DC fails to be comparable to that standard, simply put the defense/ac stats are sub standard in comparision to the hr deflect build and the core mechanic value of the GWFs unstoppable.
I would not only rework the slow animation encounters, I would also vastly revamp the feats as well. ITs not the dc is bad buffing players dps, its that the rest of it is slightly lagging behind the meta of the game. SW changes alot, well geared fury SW can effectively replace DPS, a well geared TEMP can give any healing factor needed to a dc and a GF can pretty much be a buff bot, while adding alot more control ablity and damage then a typical DC.
All put there just is alot more viability in today's meta, for none DC runs then there ever was before.
I totally understand that a DC can effectively double a dps output.. but frankly a CW/SW combo is more then enough when supported by a GF.
Is it bad per se? no, Im ok with that part, Im less ok with how slow the dc is for daily runs, the outdated rightousness mechanic and the really bad feat lines and capstones (worse in game)
All of those should be looked at and reworked.
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clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
Why are you even asking this question? If you're looking for a striker then play a striker. Clerics are leaders, and leaders are multipliers. The whole point of actually bringing a leader along is to increase the overall effectiveness of the party, to levels beyond what any 5 non-leaders would normally be able to achieve. Note that with Hallowed Ground alone, 4 other people are already doing 30% more damage. If each of them is a monster DPSer and does 1m damage while HG is up(or let's say double/back-to-back HG, just to be realistic), congrats you just generated 1.3M more damage for your party with a single power. Have a cookie. Oh, and for some of you, think about that the next time you decide use Flame Strike/Hammer of Fate in group PvE.
What makes the Neverwinter DC unique is that to accomplish this (being a leader) it only needs a few key powers - the "standard" trio is A.Seal, A.Shield and Hallowed Ground/Divine Armor/maybe Anointed Army. Whatever else you decide to slot is up to you.
Essentially you only need 3, and sometimes even just 2, of the 9 power slots all characters get to dedicate to "buffing". There's nothing preventing you from dedicating the rest of those power slots to improving your DPS, if that's what you want. Atm our arsenal is dated and badly needs to be "modernized", as someone put it, but maybe you'll get lucky with your crits or land in a party with a CW who likes stacking things on top of each other, so that divine Searing Light spam lands you a spot in the top 3 of paingiver. One can dream.
This all Neverwinter DC 101.
Calling us buffbots is a gross oversimplification, especially considering that to power up all our strongest buffs we NEED to be doing something else more productive (eg attacking/healing).
Untrue. Not that gearscore after 12k-13k really matters, but as far as character development goes stronger characters will be able to use their dailies more frequently. Stronger attacker types who spam attacking encounters to build AP/DP faster for their dailies/key encounters will actually be able to contribute significantly to overall damage through their own personal DPS, or at least some DCs used to be able to do so in previous mods. Stronger healer types will grant higher Linked Spirit shared stats since the way the feat is supposed to work people around you are getting a portion of YOUR stats. Even Anointed Champion, because of its natural defensive bent, gets Battle Fervor in the Virtuous paragon feat path as a sort of compensation, which grants a portion of DC's power to its allies.
This is also Neverwinter DC 101.
If 12k-13k is all that matters for being a buffbot, then it is like I said what is the motivation to improve ones gs ? Power has no diminishing returns like recovery (it also benefits other classes way more to have higher power scores than for the cleric) so putting ever more into recovery will not achieve any noticeable AP gain. So the cleric has a certain point (a relatively low point as well) where it can be no better, do other classes have such usefulness caps ? What does it say about the class design if some can become godlike characters with high gs and others its simply a waste of time ?
If 12k-13k is all that matters for being a buffbot, then it is like I said what is the motivation to improve ones gs ?
Where exactly does it say that 12-13k is all that matters for being a buffbot? What I meant was that 12-13k characters should be able to tackle all content reliably, except perhaps the new ToD ones, so anything after that is just added convenience. Shouldn't you already know this?
Power has no diminishing returns like recovery (it also benefits other classes way more to have higher power scores than for the cleric)
Not true. I don't why you're making me repeat myself, but even a defensive DC with high power using with Linked Spirit/Battle Fervor can significantly improve other people's power stat. More aggressive DCs will be doing more damage/healing.
I honestly don't know why you'd think higher power/ArP (pointless to discuss power without ArP since ArP is essentially amplifies damage) would help other classes more than the DC. Do we not also solo dailies? Do we not have 6-8 extra power slots to spare for any other power we decide to use? Do we not attack all the time even in group PvE?
so putting ever more into recovery will not achieve any noticeable AP gain
What's your point? Are you saying that the only way to improve AP gain is to stack recovery? How about the +AP gain stat or active abilities that grant AP from gear, artifacts and companions? Ultimately you'll want purple/orange/tier 3 versions of those and as a result your GS is going to go up anyway.
If we're gonna nitpick then there are the artifact weapons (higher damage, improves everything you do) and artifact belts (cha belt is cheap atm, and will only get cheaper) and you'll also want orange versions of those sometime in the future.
So the cleric has a certain point (a relatively low point as well) where it can be no better, do other classes have such usefulness caps ?
This part basically tells me that you're either confused about something, inexperienced or that you really don't know what you're talking about. Didn't I already mention that to power up our strongest buffs we also need to constantly perform more mundane functions like attacking/healing? If you don't want to boost your power then that's your decision. Other people are more practical about these things.
What does it say about the class design if some can become godlike characters with high gs and others its simply a waste of time ?
Unfortunately, Perfect Vorpals/Lightning/Plaguefire/Terror/whatever enchants don't give high GS (or any GS at all, really) and there are CWs with roughly 13k GS running around who can easily outDPS 17k+ characters. I could remove the Perfect Vorpal on my own 16.5k striker and lots of 13k+ somethings would easily outdamage me.
Anyway technically since we can amplify other people's damage then as far as we're concerned if there are people running around with godlike DPS then more power to them. Speaking as (outwardly) decent players then I guess we should support the addition of more well-rounded dungeons or options which will allow classes like the TR (primarily single target damage) and HRs/GWFs (some builds trade damage for extra survivability) to flourish, but that doesn't have anything to do with being a DC.
For the record none of this has anything to do with the problems we have atm really, the basic playstyle is fine. The problem is that many of our feats/powers are too situational/broken and, considering the new meta, needs to be more efficient results-wise.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
Most players (like the GWF above) recognize the value of having a DC along. That said I do hope we get some damage buffs come mod 5 to our at wills and some more survivability.
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I don't think we need a damage buff, though I do think our damage powers need to be more efficient.
Example. Since the devs have started moving away from the whole "stack everything in one place and nuke them all" playstyle, then it would really help if the damage radius/AoE of Searing Light was boosted a bit, and if we had an aiming mechanism/system for it similar to the GF's Frontline Surge. Searing Light, especially the divine version, has the potential to be the single most damaging power in the entire game. Unfortunately the damage radius is abysmal.
Normal Daunting Light's radius could be larger, Hammer of Fate/Chains of Blazing Light could be un-dodgeable, Punishing Light could also drain stamina, Break the Spirit could also improve all damage the DC does to the target, stuff like that.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Why are you even asking this question? If you're looking for a striker then play a striker. Clerics are leaders, and leaders are multipliers. The whole point of actually bringing a leader along is to increase the overall effectiveness of the party, to levels beyond what any 5 non-leaders would normally be able to achieve. Note that with Hallowed Ground alone, 4 other people are already doing 30% more damage. If each of them is a monster DPSer and does 1m damage while HG is up(or let's say double/back-to-back HG, just to be realistic), congrats you just generated 1.3M more damage for your party with a single power. Have a cookie. Oh, and for some of you, think about that the next time you decide use Flame Strike/Hammer of Fate in group PvE.
What makes the Neverwinter DC unique is that to accomplish this (being a leader) it only needs a few key powers - the "standard" trio is A.Seal, A.Shield and Hallowed Ground/Divine Armor/maybe Anointed Army. Whatever else you decide to slot is up to you.
Essentially you only need 3, and sometimes even just 2, of the 9 power slots all characters get to dedicate to "buffing". There's nothing preventing you from dedicating the rest of those power slots to improving your DPS, if that's what you want. Atm our arsenal is dated and badly needs to be "modernized", as someone put it, but maybe you'll get lucky with your crits or land in a party with a CW who likes stacking things on top of each other, so that divine Searing Light spam lands you a spot in the top 3 of paingiver. One can dream.
This all Neverwinter DC 101.
Calling us buffbots is a gross oversimplification, especially considering that to power up all our strongest buffs we NEED to be doing something else more productive (eg attacking/healing).
Untrue. Not that gearscore after 12k-13k really matters, but as far as character development goes stronger characters will be able to use their dailies more frequently. Stronger attacker types who spam attacking encounters to build AP/DP faster for their dailies/key encounters will actually be able to contribute significantly to overall damage through their own personal DPS, or at least some DCs used to be able to do so in previous mods. Stronger healer types will grant higher Linked Spirit shared stats since the way the feat is supposed to work people around you are getting a portion of YOUR stats. Even Anointed Champion, because of its natural defensive bent, gets Battle Fervor in the Virtuous paragon feat path as a sort of compensation, which grants a portion of DC's power to its allies.
This is also Neverwinter DC 101.
Mmm, AP and DP generation have nothing to do with gear (minus some artifact with +% to AP). Stronger attacks don't generate more AP or DP. And our personal dps is nothing to write home about.
And I'd like more an healer gameplay. Where I get to choose who heal and with what spell, where my contribution is fundamental, not just to help speedrunning everything.
There is no skill in placing HG and spamming every encounter whenever active. Is funny for you when one of your biggest contribution to a party is a proc of your one year old gear?
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2014
Well tyrtallow, I think everybody knows by now that you like this cleric.
What you really can't understand is that some other people don't like the gameplay cleric offers.
So can you stop repeating ad nauseam that we don't understand, that this is NW 101, and all the other BS you use to belittle who has a different opinion than yours?
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clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
edited September 2014
This part basically tells me that you're either confused about something, inexperienced or that you really don't know what you're talking about. Didn't I already mention that to power up our strongest buffs we also need to constantly perform more mundane functions like attacking/healing? If you don't want to boost your power then that's your decision. Other people are more practical about these things.
Performing all those mundane tasks of attacking/healing have the same AP gain and they are standard buffbot procedure, so whats your point here exactly ? That still does not explain how having higher gs makes one better buffbot ? As for increasing AP gain with certain companions and the belt, exactly how much percentage gain is that going to give you to use hallowed ground more frequently ? Even with a max everything AP gain, that is hardly going to make a dent in your gs.
Unfortunately, Perfect Vorpals/Lightning/Plaguefire/Terror/whatever enchants don't give high GS (or any GS at all, really) and there are CWs with roughly 13k GS running around who can easily outDPS 17k+ characters. I could remove the Perfect Vorpal on my own 16.5k striker and lots of 13k+ somethings would easily outdamage me.
Thats true, but then again everyone can use those and the question is how higher gs makes one a better buffbot dc, not how lack of gs makes one better buffbot.
Stronger healer types will grant higher Linked Spirit shared stats since the way the feat is supposed to work people around you are getting a portion of YOUR stats.
I dont even know why you even brought up this .. You, me and most people in this Temple well know that Linked Spirit has always increased the value based on the recipient stat since forever...
Never bring up a "supposed" argument, ever... especially to support whatever point you may want to prove... because it's just pathetic. This is Common Sense 101 btw.
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2014
To sum it up: are we usefull? yes, we are. Are we essential? Nope. Can a sw replace us: yes, yes he can.
And I say it again, to be usefull to the party we must play as a buffbot, nothing more.
And it's ****ing boring. A monkey can do that job after 1 day of training.
And pls stop talking about heals, lifesteal + pots beat our heals hands down.
People need to stop focusing on GS, it's pointless and really has no bearing on how good a player is. Anybody who's played this game for a while has I'm sure realized that GS is pretty much irrelevant. It's simply a measure of you're total amount of stats. Lots of people with high GS have poorly distributed stats and are actually worse than people with lower GS. This is assuming a PVE focus, and honestly DC's have no issues with AP gain. I don't know what the theoretical limit is but between Cha, Recovery you can get quite a lot of AP gain, not to mention buffs, our class feature, boons, etc. that give even more AP gain. But honestly if you really want to spam off dailys (probably HG) which I would say is pretty much the most beneficial thing a DC can do throughout a run, then use DC class artifact.
People need to stop focusing on GS, it's pointless and really has no bearing on how good a player is. Anybody who's played this game for a while has I'm sure realized that GS is pretty much irrelevant. It's simply a measure of you're total amount of stats. Lots of people with high GS have poorly distributed stats and are actually worse than people with lower GS. This is assuming a PVE focus, and honestly DC's have no issues with AP gain. I don't know what the theoretical limit is but between Cha, Recovery you can get quite a lot of AP gain, not to mention buffs, our class feature, boons, etc. that give even more AP gain. But honestly if you really want to spam off dailys (probably HG) which I would say is pretty much the most beneficial thing a DC can do throughout a run, then use DC class artifact.
You dont seem to get the point.. More GS (Power) on other classes means MORE damage.. and GS invested are felt more.. If you're a DC, more Power ofc affects damage and healing, but doesnt scale well compared to how Power can profit other classes ..
You said GS is not important, but that's really not the point. It is true that the GS itself is not important, but the fact that GS (Power) benefit other class more than DC, that's when it become an issue. You never do great with damage as a Cleric , and healing is always sub-par even with 10k Power (compared to what a 10k Power GWF can do with its damage), this thing seriously hurt Healing type DCs in PvP and force us to go Tank route...
I'd really like for DCs to benefit as much as any other class for stacking Power... So, the best choice for PvP isnt always just stacking defense attributes like right now.. Have you ever wondered why DPS DC virtuous build is a fail build for BOTH PvE and PvP?
Some comments from people of other classes when I played my DC:
When looking for dungeons: "We want you to do damage"
"Why are you bringing a DC? We don't need that heal or buffs"
In pvp: "fxxking dc stole my kill"
"We already got a dc, two will be a disaster"
When talking to others about DC gameplay: "DCs are boring. I will never even think of playing one."
And these are for my DC who was once on page 27 on the leader board through legitimate means and pugging only when I played her often. All of these comments are from people from top pvp guilds who know what they are doing. So this is not a matter of L2P for me or for the other people making these comments. This is rather a matter of the class really is less useful than others. I look forward to the upcoming revamp in mod 5. I hope there will be a place for DCs somewhere. Right now, I'm using her as a tank, with buffing/debuffing and healing as side effects.
I dont even know why you even brought up this .. You, me and most people in this Temple well know that Linked Spirit has always increased the value based on the recipient stat since forever...
Never bring up a "supposed" argument, ever... especially to support whatever point you may want to prove... because it's just pathetic. This is Common Sense 101 btw.
I expected you to have more sense than this godhric. It's supposed to increase stat values based on the DC's stats since that's what it says in the description. Essentially this feat has been bugged since forever. Once upon a time this arrangement was convenient, and is possibly one of the reasons why the devs chose not to fix it, but obviously things have changed way too much since then. Why do you think I keep mentioning that feats/powers needed to be fixed/updated?
The playstyle of the defensive cleric has always been about giving its allies various bonuses through healing, balancing out the fact that this cleric type is sacrificing much of its personal offense potential in order to slot more healing powers in group PvE.
Mmm, AP and DP generation have nothing to do with gear (minus some artifact with +% to AP). Stronger attacks don't generate more AP or DP. And our personal dps is nothing to write home about.
Except it does. Artifacts, artifact gear, companions, Black Ice, the new ToD set, etc. And our personal DPS is pretty strong, it's just not efficient anymore.
So can you stop repeating ad nauseam that we don't understand, that this is NW 101, and all the other BS you use to belittle who has a different opinion than yours?
I keep repeating it because of idiotic comments like the one you just made above psychaos999. Anyone aiming to increase AP gain through IS going to end up with GS anyway, which as someone points out, is merely an relative indicator of character potential. And you honestly don't think our personal DPS is "nothing to write home about"? Have you ever bothered to play as a DPSing DC, at least in solo, using a combination of skills like Terrifying Insight, Daunting Light, Searing Light and Chains of Blazing Light? Have you tried doing it for like a week, just so you get used to playstyle? Have you bothered actually giving your DC decent ArP so he tackle mobs efficiently, like every other class in the game?
Oh we have DPS. The problem is that its dated. It doesn't work anymore. Too many mobs just won't let you gather them in one place so you can drop chains on them and kill them all with a single Divine Searing Light cast. The meta is changing. Since DC DPS is like 90% based on proper positioning/placement, that has to change too.
And seriously, "different opinion than yours"? Grow a brain. That was not an opinion, that was just whining.
You said GS is not important, but that's really not the point. It is true that the GS itself is not important, but the fact that GS (Power) benefit other class more than DC, that's when it become an issue. You never do great with damage as a Cleric , and healing is always sub-par even with 10k Power (compared to what a 10k Power GWF can do with its damage), this thing seriously hurt Healing type DCs in PvP and force us to go Tank route.
DC survivability in PvP has little to do with stats. It has more to do with changing metas, CCs/CC immunity, broken feats/powers and relatively ridiculous class mechanics on other classes.
You said it yourself. DCs can have 10k power in PvP and that won't really matter if you're dying all the time, and even tanky types who go through the trouble of stacking HP/Regen/def/deflect keep dying all the time these days. Shouldn't that tell you that the problem is not with stats?
I'd really like for DCs to benefit as much as any other class for stacking Power... So, the best choice for PvP isnt always just stacking defense attributes like right now.. Have you ever wondered why DPS DC virtuous build is a fail build for BOTH PvE and PvP?
Yeah right, thanks for the support above.
DPS DCs are a different animal, but Virtuous-type attacking DCs were once very viable in PvE. Back when stacking mobs was the norm, and between the old Cycle of Change an Disciple of Divine Lore, Virtuous had an innate +20% damage to encounters. With Hallowed Ground up, it was not uncommon for divine Searing Light crits to hit for 25k+. I've seen some DCs do 200k+ damage in one hit thanks to divine Searing Light (consider that companion bonuses/artifacts didn't even exist yet). Slot HG/DA/A.Shield/A.Seal/SB and a Virtuous DC could also cover all the party's mitigation/damage boost/healing needs.
Obviously the meta has changed significantly since that time. Back then the chances of getting a CW was 1 in 3 (there were only three strikers), nowadays its 1 in 5. Back then there was a very good chance that a CW would use AS, nowadays there are better alternatives. Which is why people like me are pushing for our powers to be "modernized" or updated.
As for PvP, considering how ArP on DoTs didn't work from mod 1-4 a PvP striker cleric was doomed from the start offense-wise. We don't have to bother considering it from a survivability perspective.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
I expected you to have more sense than this godhric.
Seriously, quoting and disagreeing you with just 1 point and you already tell that I dont make sense.. I suppose ALL other person should just agree with ALL that you say and worship you for being so right.
=It's supposed to increase stat values based on the DC's stats since that's what it says in the description. Essentially this feat has been bugged since forever.
Cleric overhaul is huge and is really coming together. All Encounter powers are getting looked at, reworked divine mode, all new feat trees.
YES, I KNOW THAT YOU KNOW it's bugged. So WHY bring this up??? Esp we are soon gonna get overhauled, it is probable that this feat can be changed WITHOUT ever being fixed to do the "supposed"
My point is this, dont bring up an argument describing a "supposed", bring an argument that match the fact and reality that is happening.
All in all, let's not continue this senseless argument.. because there will be no end.
In the end, we are gonna get reworked.. Let's just hope the rework is for the best and match most of our expectations
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clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
People need to stop focusing on GS, it's pointless and really has no bearing on how good a player is. Anybody who's played this game for a while has I'm sure realized that GS is pretty much irrelevant. It's simply a measure of you're total amount of stats. Lots of people with high GS have poorly distributed stats and are actually worse than people with lower GS. This is assuming a PVE focus, and honestly DC's have no issues with AP gain. I don't know what the theoretical limit is but between Cha, Recovery you can get quite a lot of AP gain, not to mention buffs, our class feature, boons, etc. that give even more AP gain. But honestly if you really want to spam off dailys (probably HG) which I would say is pretty much the most beneficial thing a DC can do throughout a run, then use DC class artifact.
The argument that some people badly assign their stats is not an argument for saying gs does not matter, it just means they have badly assigned their stats. Having 9000 over 4500 power is better, same goes for 1000 critical chance over 2000 chance and so on for most classes, you just have to be aware where the caps are.
Regarding the much vaunted AP gain, what the theoretical max is I don't know, I can get mine to 62% (sprite companion, 3500 recovery, 22 cha). But since anyone can have 22 cha if they choose, and 2% from the sprite companion might be a waste of zen for many, the thing that matters here is how much you put in recovery, since having 2600 recovery gives you 57% that is not a big difference.
So going back to what I first said, other classes have motivation to make their classes more potent via higher stats. If the cleric has been typecast as the buffbot (because our healing is now so weak compared to the warlock), then there is not much to aim for beyond 13k gs. Others will say that it does not matter, I say it should matter, the fact that the cleric cannot strive to become an uber cleric with say a 19k gs is inexcusable. For those who truly want to be buffbots then Cryptic should provide meaningful ways where one can really boost this, for those that want to be uber healers, because that really is the traditional role of a cleric, Cryptic must make it possible that they don't get out healed 3 to 1 by the warlock with their one feat vs the many healing feats of the cleric (also inexcusable). Right now neither of these exist, people are apologizing for the current cleric are apologizing for broken design.
In the remote possibility that they rewrote the class, how great would it be if they made it look closer to the classic D&D, a mace and shield, magic casting and a turn undead spell.
I played a cleric for a few days and deleted it because it didn't feel right. I didn't like doing ranged magic attacks, I much rather use mace and shield with it also.
Seriously, quoting and disagreeing you with just 1 point and you already tell that I dont make sense.. I suppose ALL other person should just agree with ALL that you say and worship you for being so right.
Agree with what? Facts? Does it really seem to you that I was giving out a personal opinion instead of solid information? Let's take a closer look at just what you did there. I say that "Linked Spirit is supposed to give the DC's party mates a portion of his stats", which is correct. The description says so. Therefore, the fact that it works differently tells us that it's bugged. DO YOU SEE AN OPINION IN THERE SOMEWHERE?
YES, I KNOW THAT YOU KNOW it's bugged. So WHY bring this up??? Esp we are soon gonna get overhauled, it is probable that this feat can be changed WITHOUT ever being fixed to do the "supposed"
My point is this, dont bring up an argument describing a "supposed", bring an argument that match the fact and reality that is happening.
I'm bringing it up because I thought you are/were being rational. You obviously aren't.
I guess I should spell it out for you then: you brought up the argument that Power doesn't benefit the (defensive) DC as much and that the DC's GS seems somewhat pointless. Now, IF Linked Spirit was working properly then it would give defensive DC types the motivation to stack PvE stats and ultimately this would improve their quality of life (solo-wise) as well as allow them to heal (and give people significant buffs in PvE) as normal. See the line of reasoning now?
Defensive-wise, I pointed out that stats were never the problem. As a result of that line of reasoning then I'm basically saying that a better class mechanic, implemented through powers/feats/whatever, should be implemented in order to improve DC survivability in PvE/PvP. Perhaps they could replace Sooth with a class feature power that gives +50% control resist per level or something.
My point is this, dont bring up an argument describing a "supposed", bring an argument that match the fact and reality that is happening.
That is a truly pathetic excuse considering how my argument IS based on fact and reason (I'm pretty sure I'm not the one trying to argue facts here) and you make it sound like akromatik didn't just announce the cleric advocate position.
What exactly did you think we're doing here?
If you're willing to just close your eyes and let the devs do their job then do that. Don't go around randomly quoting people who are more than willing do more just because you think we should follow your example. Some of us simply learned to be more proactive after the whole mod3 GWF fiasco.
The DC doesn't need to be typecast as a buffbot because it has always specialized in buffs, specifically damage buffs and mitigation buffs. Do you honestly think that the reason your allies are alive in PvE is more because of your actual healing, and not because of Hallowed Ground/Divine Armor/Anointed Army/Foresight/Astral Shield? Healing DOES help, but it has always been secondary survivability-wise. It's always been that way, even in beta. Consider this: Forgemaster's Flame has always done more healing than Astral Shield. It's cooldown is shorter, and it's our strongest healing power. But would it make the top 3 of any DC's list of best defensive powers? Or consider another scenario: given the option to use divine Astral Shield OR Healing Word +Soothing Light (significantly higher healing) on someone who you expect is going to receive or has just received massive damage, which power/s would you use?
Hell it's that way even in tabletop D&D. In an actual D&D fight, a cleric only stops to heal when someone absolutely needs it. Otherwise a cleric is usually busy actually fighting monsters him/herself and casting defensive/offensive spells. The devs have just been generous enough to provide support (Anointed Champion, Faithful paragon path) fpr players who just want a traditional, non-D&D MMO healer. The feats/powers are broken, but the fact is that the playstyle does have support and with the rework stuff can get fixed/updated. And there is nothing broken with the design: Faithful buffs allies so there are benefits to using heals even when less actual healing is required.
Finally Devoted Clerics are not Battle Clerics. Think Goldmoon from the Dragonlance series. It's the scholarly cleric-type which focuses on spells. Adding in Battle Cleric first would have resulted in 4 out of the original 5 classes being melee classes.
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Hell it's that way even in tabletop D&D. In an actual D&D fight, a cleric only stops to heal when someone absolutely needs it. Otherwise a cleric is usually busy actually fighting monsters him/herself and casting defensive/offensive spells.
I miss some of the 3.5 cleric stuff. Being a divine engine of destruction is fun.
I miss some of the 3.5 cleric stuff. Being a divine engine of destruction is fun.
No kidding. True sight, harm, heal, resist magic, free movement. And then the three most important things. Plate Armor, Draw upon Holy Might, and Righteous Magic.
It is proof that the devs don't know anything about clerics and very little about D&D. I could fix the class easy. Just a slight bit of modifications, I will make a thread later, I don't care if I have to program it myself it should be done.
Have you ever wondered why DPS DC virtuous build is a fail build for BOTH PvE and PvP?
But it is not.
Who told you that load of old cobblers? I have four DCs, three of which are level 60.
My Dwarf DO has the Virtuous Tree and two feats from the Righteous Tree (Righteous Rage and Ethereal Boon) and everything he could get to increase damage and his Divinity Regeneration.
He has Profound Righteous armour, a Greater Plague Fire, a Soulforged and Rank 8 Radiant, Azure and Dark enchants,
about 5k Power, >3k Crit, 2.6k Defence and ~2k Armour Penetration.
He does not have as much Recovery as I'd like (1.1k), but something has to give.
He is BY FAR the most successful of my DCs, especially in solo play. In the PvP campaign he has the first 9 Achievements and has 9/40 Triple Kills. His spot heals from Soothing Light with Cycle of Change is phenomenal and he is the only one where people in PvP ever stopped to say "Thanks!" and "Awesome heals!"
He usually uses Divine Glow or Forgemaster's Flame (as it auto-locks on target), Nimbussed Daunting Light and Sun Burst with Brand of the Sun and Lance of Faith At-Wills and Hammer of Fate or Flame Strike.
His stats are 21, 17, 14, 15, 24, 16.
But his damage is still paltry against equally geared characters of all other classes.
My first character is a Tiefling AC, and I have re-specced her at least three times.
Her stats are 17, 13, 13, 20, 20, 22
My Tiefling AC has the Faithful Tree up to Moon Shadow and the same two feats from the Righteous Tree and everything she could get to increase healing and buffing.
She has Grim Faithful armour, a Greater Terror, Rank 9 Barkshield and Rank 8 Silvery and Radiant enchants,
about 4.5k Power, <0.8k Crit, 2.8k Defence and ~<0.4k Armour Penetration but 3.2k Recovery.
In the Master of the Hunt Skirmish event she can lay down Hallowed Ground with about a 30 second gap in between.
She used to use Blessings of Battle for the buff and 9 Sacred Flames for the speed and temp hp, but recently switched to using Astral Seal the way my DO uses Brand of the Sun with Blessings of Battle as her main attack. BoB is MUCH slower, but does more damage per hit, seems to regenerate more Divinity and anyone standing near her is bound to get the buff as it is constantly being spammed.
She usually uses (Prestigious) Exaltation, Daunting Light (Astral Shield in Boss rooms of dungeons) and Sun Burst with Hallowed Ground or Flame Strike Dailies. She used to use Anointed Army or Hallowed Ground until she re-speced and got rid of Ancient Warding.
But she has very few Double Kills and NO Triple Kills, and cannot defend herself to save her life. Literally! Without a good team to defend her, she is dead meat.
All this tells me that the DC's design is so badly broken it needs some serious reworking. The dps, buffing and debuffing from the DO Dwarf should be a lot higher - so should his healing.
The healing and buffing from the Tiefling AC should be a LOT higher than it is, and her dps should be a lot better as well.
It also tells me you must have read something somewhere abut the Virtuous Tree being a Fail Build but never tried it yourself.
And none of us should have to be limited to using only 5 of the 12 heroic Feats because seven of them are just rubbish, only to find that most of the Paragon Feats are also rubbish or do not work properly.
I mean, Righteous Flames? Five Ranks for a 0.5 second stun? 0.1second PER RANK?!?
When between a CW, a GWF and a TR, the only reason I am locked out of my keyboard for 5 seconds instead of 20 is BECAUSE I AM DEAD AFTER FIVE SECONDS!! :mad:
The Dwarf lives a bit longer, but I think that is due to more hp from CON and a little more Tenacity on the Profound rather than the Grim.
So the DC should be able to do the same as a Healer, Buffer, Debuffer and a DPS War Priest. Or any hybrid you like.
I have tried it all ways. I also have a Dwarf AC I have re-speced several times and I'm pretty much getting sick of how poor the DC is.
Especially since I rolled a Dragonborn Warlock conflagrating everything to Oblivion and back and NEVER having had to drink a healing potion yet - in 30 levels!
And I turned a level 60 Halfling Whisperknife Saboteur into a Black Draconian and sorted out her initial rolls and she suddenly became Perma-Stealth with her Skulker's armour.
You dont seem to get the point.. More GS (Power) on other classes means MORE damage.. and GS invested are felt more.. If you're a DC, more Power ofc affects damage and healing, but doesnt scale well compared to how Power can profit other classes ..
You said GS is not important, but that's really not the point. It is true that the GS itself is not important, but the fact that GS (Power) benefit other class more than DC, that's when it become an issue. You never do great with damage as a Cleric , and healing is always sub-par even with 10k Power (compared to what a 10k Power GWF can do with its damage), this thing seriously hurt Healing type DCs in PvP and force us to go Tank route...
I'd really like for DCs to benefit as much as any other class for stacking Power... So, the best choice for PvP isnt always just stacking defense attributes like right now.. Have you ever wondered why DPS DC virtuous build is a fail build for BOTH PvE and PvP?
So basically this isn't so much about GS as it is about power stacking, since it's the only stat with no diminishing returns. In effect it's a dump stat for once you have as much of everything else as you need. Not all classes benefit the same from stacking power though. You mention GWF's which are probably a good example, but they also benefit a lot from power stacking, because of how power scales with their dmg. It's not the same for all classes, and for example power stacking on GWF's didn't used to be nearly as useful until mod3 (I think that's right) that they changed how power affected many classes dmg output. The class this most benefited happened to be GWF's
So yes I think we can say that power stacking on a DC may not be as effective as stacking it on a different class. This can be good an bad. As you say it's like why invest all those resources on your DC if it doesn't do that much? True, maybe it's not worth it, or at least it's not a priority when you could be investing said resources in upgrading artefacts, etc. Of course this also has an upside and that is that you can obtain a comparable efectivness for essentially a much lower cost (less resources) Glass half empty, or glass half full? Depends on how you want to look at it.
I will personally never understand the never ending fixation on healing amounts and DC's that don't do much but heal people...Seems really boring to me especially with how the class mechanics are set up. Either way, healing has never been the primary focus of a DC in this game, it's simply one of our support mechanics. The primary focus is DR with passive healing support. There are then other buffs/debuffs and healing focused spells that people can use as they choose, based on what they prefer.
Honestly I can't say how good or bad a dps virtous build could be, in PVE at least, but yeah I could understand that the dmg from said build could not equal the benefit from the buffs/debuffs you could provide to the party with a diferent build. In regards to PVP well I'm not surprised at all. Offensive builds are never good in PVP. I don't know a single game that has quality PVP in which defensive oriented builds aren't the best. When has glass cannon ever been a recomended PVP set up?
So going back to what I first said, other classes have motivation to make their classes more potent via higher stats. If the cleric has been typecast as the buffbot (because our healing is now so weak compared to the warlock), then there is not much to aim for beyond 13k gs. Others will say that it does not matter, I say it should matter, the fact that the cleric cannot strive to become an uber cleric with say a 19k gs is inexcusable. For those who truly want to be buffbots then Cryptic should provide meaningful ways where one can really boost this, for those that want to be uber healers, because that really is the traditional role of a cleric, Cryptic must make it possible that they don't get out healed 3 to 1 by the warlock with their one feat vs the many healing feats of the cleric (also inexcusable). Right now neither of these exist, people are apologizing for the current cleric are apologizing for broken design.
Cleric's have been most efficient as buff bots for a long time now, it's not a new thing due to the appearance of the SW. What exactly is an uber cleric suposed to be? One that can instantly heal everybody from 0 HP to full or what? My clerics sitting at like 16.5k GS atm or so but I'm fully PVP geared, full defensive set up, righteous tree, AC, etc...If I was solely focused on offensive stats and power stacking I could have a GS quite a bit higher but I don't think that would necessarily make me a better cleric. When I choose to run PVE I don't change gear or enchants or anything, I just use the same gear and I have literally 0 issues, not only in regards to healing and supporting my group but also staying alive. Having more defensive stats to help stay alive just feels a lot more useful to me than vastly overstacking offensive stats . Anyways, we can probably all agree that it would be nice to see more balance for PVP in mod 5 since essentially every class will have undergone a major rework and balance; and more diversity for PVE players who are looking for diferent play styles
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Agree with what? Facts? Does it really seem to you that I was giving out a personal opinion instead of solid information? Let's take a closer look at just what you did there. I say that "Linked Spirit is supposed to give the DC's party mates a portion of his stats", which is correct. The description says so. Therefore, the fact that it works differently tells us that it's bugged. DO YOU SEE AN OPINION IN THERE SOMEWHERE?
I'm bringing it up because I thought you are/were being rational. You obviously aren't.
I guess I should spell it out for you then: you brought up the argument that Power doesn't benefit the (defensive) DC as much and that the DC's GS seems somewhat pointless. Now, IF Linked Spirit was working properly then it would give defensive DC types the motivation to stack PvE stats and ultimately this would improve their quality of life (solo-wise) as well as allow them to heal (and give people significant buffs in PvE) as normal. See the line of reasoning now?
Defensive-wise, I pointed out that stats were never the problem. As a result of that line of reasoning then I'm basically saying that a better class mechanic, implemented through powers/feats/whatever, should be implemented in order to improve DC survivability in PvE/PvP. Perhaps they could replace Sooth with a class feature power that gives +50% control resist per level or something.
That is a truly pathetic excuse considering how my argument IS based on fact and reason (I'm pretty sure I'm not the one trying to argue facts here) and you make it sound like akromatik didn't just announce the cleric advocate position.
What exactly did you think we're doing here?
If you're willing to just close your eyes and let the devs do their job then do that. Don't go around randomly quoting people who are more than willing do more just because you think we should follow your example. Some of us simply learned to be more proactive after the whole mod3 GWF fiasco.
The DC doesn't need to be typecast as a buffbot because it has always specialized in buffs, specifically damage buffs and mitigation buffs. Do you honestly think that the reason your allies are alive in PvE is more because of your actual healing, and not because of Hallowed Ground/Divine Armor/Anointed Army/Foresight/Astral Shield? Healing DOES help, but it has always been secondary survivability-wise. It's always been that way, even in beta. Consider this: Forgemaster's Flame has always done more healing than Astral Shield. It's cooldown is shorter, and it's our strongest healing power. But would it make the top 3 of any DC's list of best defensive powers? Or consider another scenario: given the option to use divine Astral Shield OR Healing Word +Soothing Light (significantly higher healing) on someone who you expect is going to receive or has just received massive damage, which power/s would you use?
Hell it's that way even in tabletop D&D. In an actual D&D fight, a cleric only stops to heal when someone absolutely needs it. Otherwise a cleric is usually busy actually fighting monsters him/herself and casting defensive/offensive spells. The devs have just been generous enough to provide support (Anointed Champion, Faithful paragon path) fpr players who just want a traditional, non-D&D MMO healer. The feats/powers are broken, but the fact is that the playstyle does have support and with the rework stuff can get fixed/updated. And there is nothing broken with the design: Faithful buffs allies so there are benefits to using heals even when less actual healing is required.
Finally Devoted Clerics are not Battle Clerics. Think Goldmoon from the Dragonlance series. It's the scholarly cleric-type which focuses on spells. Adding in Battle Cleric first would have resulted in 4 out of the original 5 classes being melee classes.
I stop playing this game, I think some other games have more to offer, for my taste.
So I really don't care anymore.
But you really are a stupid man thinking to be something else. You write wall of banalities and sell them as gold, thinking that noone have a better insight than yours. I'd really like to know what this attitude has bought you in real life. my little forum warrior!
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clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
I stop playing this game, I think some other games have more to offer, for my taste.
So I really don't care anymore.
But you really are a stupid man thinking to be something else. You write wall of banalities and sell them as gold, thinking that noone have a better insight than yours. I'd really like to know what this attitude has bought you in real life. my little forum warrior!
I was stating my opinions, like everyone here should be doing, it is called a DISCUSSION FORUM after all !
If you want to discuss stupid, saying you don't care about the game and then spend your time writing ramblings here, what do you call that ?
Pretty sure he was quoting me, but he really doesn't add anything particularly notable to the discussion regardless. The times he's spoken up in previous threads it was to ask something someone else had already answered, to whine about something or to pass along circular arguments that ended up pissing off even other people whose opinions were more or less the exact opposite of mine.
Right now he's apparently doing his smug mastermind impression.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
Honestly I can't say how good or bad a dps virtous build could be, in PVE at least, but yeah I could understand that the dmg from said build could not equal the benefit from the buffs/debuffs you could provide to the party with a diferent build. In regards to PVP well I'm not surprised at all.
You have a party around you in PvP? That do not step outside a blue Astral Shield, or do not run off to pick up a floating potion just as you cast something to heal them?
When has glass cannon ever been a recomended PVP set up?
Aren't Hunter Rangers supposed to be Glass Cannons?
What about a Trickster Rogue in Perma-Stealth? I just made one by re-speccing one of my Halflings to a Draconian Whisperknife Saboteur with a free Race Re-Roll. I made her black and she looks pretty cool. Although, as a DC, I hate them with a passion almost as much as the CWs, I find it does take a lot of skill to keep the Stealth up at the moment, and the play-style is completely different. I just finished my first Daily level 60 Arena and Lord Protector's PvP and ended up with more AD than I could refine. I did not kill much, but I did get some prize gear for coming top as I kept capping 1 and 3 and died the fewest times.
But as soon as anything hit me, I was out of the fight. Frozen, dazed, stunned, just like my DCs - depending on the other guy's GS (mine is about 10k).
But I spent a lot more time running round before getting killed.
Now, IF Linked Spirit was working properly then it would give defensive DC types the motivation to stack PvE stats and ultimately this would improve their quality of life (solo-wise) as well as allow them to heal (and give people significant buffs in PvE) as normal. See the line of reasoning now?
That's an IF by the way... Fact is, it does not work like that now and I suspect it NEVER will.
So, i stand corrected..
That is a truly pathetic excuse considering how my argument IS based on fact and reason
Well.. your FACT regarding linked spirit is based on an IF, which currently isnt working like you said it supposed to... again, why bother discussing this?
I was merely talking about how Linked Spirit giving based on our stat is NOT a implemented yet. And here you are, talking about something else entirely irrelevant in regards to my point.
TLDR-
Did I say something about healing at all in my previous comment of this thread? No.. Let's subject that in other more relevant discussions. Don't ramble too many things (esp irrelevant ones), people get headache...
He is BY FAR the most successful of my DCs, especially in solo play. In the PvP campaign he has the first 9 Achievements and has 9/40 Triple Kills. His spot heals from Soothing Light with Cycle of Change is phenomenal
Yes.. well, everything is not a fail build if the context is a solo play.. because it can be done by every other tree (although more slowly), but also most importantly there is no immediate comparison to other class
I hope i'm wrong in this, but I'm guessing not one of your 9/40 triples kill is achieved in competitive PvP? Because let's face it, Glass Canon spec die very easily in premade with the little prone/CC we have.
and he is the only one where people in PvP ever stopped to say "Thanks!" and "Awesome heals!"
Does that prove that Virtuous got awesome heal (even surpassing other tree)? No, it just means at that time, there is someone appreciating your heals. I got lots of praise too from my faithful deflect AC DC in pvp, from protecting CW back when they got less control, to GWF when rotating between nodes as support.. It's just that, its a pug match.. And the matches are often not very tight / competitive.. (but in a balanced match, correctly specced DC is still very useful. Only the cleric design provided very little variance to viability)
In tight PvP situation, virtuous can be replaced by other tree better for the support, because the bonuses arent that well worth it DPS wise, we got too much proned/CCed and very little means to counter it.. Things we have for virtuous are some neat initial burst, and minuscule healing (compared to damage that can be done by other people) and that's it..
For PvE virtuous, it is kinda flawed in that it restrict encounter usage. You can never slot good defensive spells like AS/HW into offensive rotation, or Divine Glow/Sunburst to healing/defensive rotation without interfering Cycle of Change. It just isnt a maximized setting and too much restriction on the tree.. add that with Daunting Light feat which are good to have and HAVE to be used (which is divinity exhaustive btw), otherwise it is wasted.
Little heal bonus and moderate-ish damage boost.. I'd say this virtue tree as the one with the most ambiguous identity. Moreover, WTF is the second tier doing there? (PoD & Restoration mastery feat)..
When has glass cannon ever been a recomended PVP set up?
Aren't Hunter Rangers supposed to be Glass Cannons?
You might be refering to archery tree, it might be an exception since archery tree really does give a nice boost to ranged DPS. Like, 30% shorter cooldowns, 20% damage boost to Encounters, 10% Danmage+25% crit in certain range, great capstone feat and all other REALLY good feats... But when confronted, still dies more easily than the more popular and more viable combat tree pathfinder.
I was stating my opinions, like everyone here should be doing, it is called a DISCUSSION FORUM after all !
If you want to discuss stupid, saying you don't care about the game and then spend your time writing ramblings here, what do you call that ?
Just so you know, he intended that for tyrtallow.. hence the quote
I strongly believe it's not just the argument, but the way he said it. I'm all for good discussion. And I do agree with quite all of spaniard's perspective and he brought his point in such an elegant NON-AGGRESIVE way.
Does tyrtallow need/allowed to bring his point of view across? YES, everyone does
Does he need to present it in such a condescending manner? NO
I will personally never understand the never ending fixation on healing amounts and DC's that don't do much but heal people...Seems really boring to me especially with how the class mechanics are set up. Either way, healing has never been the primary focus of a DC in this game, it's simply one of our support mechanics. The primary focus is DR with passive healing support. There are then other buffs/debuffs and healing focused spells that people can use as they choose, based on what they prefer.
Yes, I agree with you... Altho we also have to consider that many people that chose DC when starting out, do so because such people DO like to heal. And I do consider myself to be one such "heal-wh*re", possibly jazzfong too.. LOL. But as time pass by, the more we learn about our class mechanic, having mitigation & buff as primary role with healing as secondary isnt such a bad thing... especially since we know the way the game is designed does not really require heavy healing and for all class composition to be viable to finish a dungeon, eg. for no class to be mandatory.
1 Drawback from this mitigation/buff route is that the contribution we provided isnt really visible, which is why to some people this class is kind of not really fulfilling to play... You can never see your contribution beside the fact that the dungeon runs more smoothly with your presence
Comments
Dragon Server
Ragnos Fireborn - 18.7k GWF Half-Elf
Eva Darkblood - 13.8k TR Elf
Venger Force of Evil - 13.7k CW Tiefling
Azaghal Belegost - 16.5k GF Dwarf
Drak'ar - 13.3k HR Drow
Roghthar Darkspawn - 11.5k SW Human
In terms of buffing, would you prefer a GF or a DC at the moment?
This only discusses the in group play, doesn't touch the pvp issues in current meta, nor the slow pace of daily play (twice as long as the hr/cw/gwf and even my sw now! my 16k dc isnt a match for my not even 12k sw in terms of speed of daily pace) Nor can you explain to me why both my GWF/HR are double the tankiness value of my 3k defense AC specced DC with double the AC of my HR and 1/3 more then my GWF dies so very easily compared to those two classes. I dont need a explanation as to why THEY are superior, I need a explanation as to why the DC fails to be comparable to that standard, simply put the defense/ac stats are sub standard in comparision to the hr deflect build and the core mechanic value of the GWFs unstoppable.
I would not only rework the slow animation encounters, I would also vastly revamp the feats as well. ITs not the dc is bad buffing players dps, its that the rest of it is slightly lagging behind the meta of the game. SW changes alot, well geared fury SW can effectively replace DPS, a well geared TEMP can give any healing factor needed to a dc and a GF can pretty much be a buff bot, while adding alot more control ablity and damage then a typical DC.
All put there just is alot more viability in today's meta, for none DC runs then there ever was before.
I totally understand that a DC can effectively double a dps output.. but frankly a CW/SW combo is more then enough when supported by a GF.
Is it bad per se? no, Im ok with that part, Im less ok with how slow the dc is for daily runs, the outdated rightousness mechanic and the really bad feat lines and capstones (worse in game)
All of those should be looked at and reworked.
If 12k-13k is all that matters for being a buffbot, then it is like I said what is the motivation to improve ones gs ? Power has no diminishing returns like recovery (it also benefits other classes way more to have higher power scores than for the cleric) so putting ever more into recovery will not achieve any noticeable AP gain. So the cleric has a certain point (a relatively low point as well) where it can be no better, do other classes have such usefulness caps ? What does it say about the class design if some can become godlike characters with high gs and others its simply a waste of time ?
Not true. I don't why you're making me repeat myself, but even a defensive DC with high power using with Linked Spirit/Battle Fervor can significantly improve other people's power stat. More aggressive DCs will be doing more damage/healing.
I honestly don't know why you'd think higher power/ArP (pointless to discuss power without ArP since ArP is essentially amplifies damage) would help other classes more than the DC. Do we not also solo dailies? Do we not have 6-8 extra power slots to spare for any other power we decide to use? Do we not attack all the time even in group PvE?
What's your point? Are you saying that the only way to improve AP gain is to stack recovery? How about the +AP gain stat or active abilities that grant AP from gear, artifacts and companions? Ultimately you'll want purple/orange/tier 3 versions of those and as a result your GS is going to go up anyway.
If we're gonna nitpick then there are the artifact weapons (higher damage, improves everything you do) and artifact belts (cha belt is cheap atm, and will only get cheaper) and you'll also want orange versions of those sometime in the future.
This part basically tells me that you're either confused about something, inexperienced or that you really don't know what you're talking about. Didn't I already mention that to power up our strongest buffs we also need to constantly perform more mundane functions like attacking/healing? If you don't want to boost your power then that's your decision. Other people are more practical about these things.
Unfortunately, Perfect Vorpals/Lightning/Plaguefire/Terror/whatever enchants don't give high GS (or any GS at all, really) and there are CWs with roughly 13k GS running around who can easily outDPS 17k+ characters. I could remove the Perfect Vorpal on my own 16.5k striker and lots of 13k+ somethings would easily outdamage me.
Anyway technically since we can amplify other people's damage then as far as we're concerned if there are people running around with godlike DPS then more power to them. Speaking as (outwardly) decent players then I guess we should support the addition of more well-rounded dungeons or options which will allow classes like the TR (primarily single target damage) and HRs/GWFs (some builds trade damage for extra survivability) to flourish, but that doesn't have anything to do with being a DC.
For the record none of this has anything to do with the problems we have atm really, the basic playstyle is fine. The problem is that many of our feats/powers are too situational/broken and, considering the new meta, needs to be more efficient results-wise.
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Example. Since the devs have started moving away from the whole "stack everything in one place and nuke them all" playstyle, then it would really help if the damage radius/AoE of Searing Light was boosted a bit, and if we had an aiming mechanism/system for it similar to the GF's Frontline Surge. Searing Light, especially the divine version, has the potential to be the single most damaging power in the entire game. Unfortunately the damage radius is abysmal.
Normal Daunting Light's radius could be larger, Hammer of Fate/Chains of Blazing Light could be un-dodgeable, Punishing Light could also drain stamina, Break the Spirit could also improve all damage the DC does to the target, stuff like that.
Mmm, AP and DP generation have nothing to do with gear (minus some artifact with +% to AP). Stronger attacks don't generate more AP or DP. And our personal dps is nothing to write home about.
And I'd like more an healer gameplay. Where I get to choose who heal and with what spell, where my contribution is fundamental, not just to help speedrunning everything.
There is no skill in placing HG and spamming every encounter whenever active. Is funny for you when one of your biggest contribution to a party is a proc of your one year old gear?
What you really can't understand is that some other people don't like the gameplay cleric offers.
So can you stop repeating ad nauseam that we don't understand, that this is NW 101, and all the other BS you use to belittle who has a different opinion than yours?
Performing all those mundane tasks of attacking/healing have the same AP gain and they are standard buffbot procedure, so whats your point here exactly ? That still does not explain how having higher gs makes one better buffbot ? As for increasing AP gain with certain companions and the belt, exactly how much percentage gain is that going to give you to use hallowed ground more frequently ? Even with a max everything AP gain, that is hardly going to make a dent in your gs.
Thats true, but then again everyone can use those and the question is how higher gs makes one a better buffbot dc, not how lack of gs makes one better buffbot.
Casual press X and think SW heals better but:
DC got DR, buff, clutch heal, gives temp HP.
Because DCs give 24-30% DR at least you wont get that much damage to heal.
If I make the party in tough dungeons I prefer DC all the way.
In easy dungeons you can bring SW.
Never bring up a "supposed" argument, ever... especially to support whatever point you may want to prove... because it's just pathetic. This is Common Sense 101 btw.
And I say it again, to be usefull to the party we must play as a buffbot, nothing more.
And it's ****ing boring. A monkey can do that job after 1 day of training.
And pls stop talking about heals, lifesteal + pots beat our heals hands down.
You dont seem to get the point.. More GS (Power) on other classes means MORE damage.. and GS invested are felt more.. If you're a DC, more Power ofc affects damage and healing, but doesnt scale well compared to how Power can profit other classes ..
You said GS is not important, but that's really not the point. It is true that the GS itself is not important, but the fact that GS (Power) benefit other class more than DC, that's when it become an issue. You never do great with damage as a Cleric , and healing is always sub-par even with 10k Power (compared to what a 10k Power GWF can do with its damage), this thing seriously hurt Healing type DCs in PvP and force us to go Tank route...
I'd really like for DCs to benefit as much as any other class for stacking Power... So, the best choice for PvP isnt always just stacking defense attributes like right now.. Have you ever wondered why DPS DC virtuous build is a fail build for BOTH PvE and PvP?
When looking for dungeons: "We want you to do damage"
"Why are you bringing a DC? We don't need that heal or buffs"
In pvp: "fxxking dc stole my kill"
"We already got a dc, two will be a disaster"
When talking to others about DC gameplay: "DCs are boring. I will never even think of playing one."
And these are for my DC who was once on page 27 on the leader board through legitimate means and pugging only when I played her often. All of these comments are from people from top pvp guilds who know what they are doing. So this is not a matter of L2P for me or for the other people making these comments. This is rather a matter of the class really is less useful than others. I look forward to the upcoming revamp in mod 5. I hope there will be a place for DCs somewhere. Right now, I'm using her as a tank, with buffing/debuffing and healing as side effects.
The playstyle of the defensive cleric has always been about giving its allies various bonuses through healing, balancing out the fact that this cleric type is sacrificing much of its personal offense potential in order to slot more healing powers in group PvE.
Except it does. Artifacts, artifact gear, companions, Black Ice, the new ToD set, etc. And our personal DPS is pretty strong, it's just not efficient anymore.
I keep repeating it because of idiotic comments like the one you just made above psychaos999. Anyone aiming to increase AP gain through IS going to end up with GS anyway, which as someone points out, is merely an relative indicator of character potential. And you honestly don't think our personal DPS is "nothing to write home about"? Have you ever bothered to play as a DPSing DC, at least in solo, using a combination of skills like Terrifying Insight, Daunting Light, Searing Light and Chains of Blazing Light? Have you tried doing it for like a week, just so you get used to playstyle? Have you bothered actually giving your DC decent ArP so he tackle mobs efficiently, like every other class in the game?
Oh we have DPS. The problem is that its dated. It doesn't work anymore. Too many mobs just won't let you gather them in one place so you can drop chains on them and kill them all with a single Divine Searing Light cast. The meta is changing. Since DC DPS is like 90% based on proper positioning/placement, that has to change too.
And seriously, "different opinion than yours"? Grow a brain. That was not an opinion, that was just whining.
DC survivability in PvP has little to do with stats. It has more to do with changing metas, CCs/CC immunity, broken feats/powers and relatively ridiculous class mechanics on other classes.
You said it yourself. DCs can have 10k power in PvP and that won't really matter if you're dying all the time, and even tanky types who go through the trouble of stacking HP/Regen/def/deflect keep dying all the time these days. Shouldn't that tell you that the problem is not with stats?
Yeah right, thanks for the support above.
DPS DCs are a different animal, but Virtuous-type attacking DCs were once very viable in PvE. Back when stacking mobs was the norm, and between the old Cycle of Change an Disciple of Divine Lore, Virtuous had an innate +20% damage to encounters. With Hallowed Ground up, it was not uncommon for divine Searing Light crits to hit for 25k+. I've seen some DCs do 200k+ damage in one hit thanks to divine Searing Light (consider that companion bonuses/artifacts didn't even exist yet). Slot HG/DA/A.Shield/A.Seal/SB and a Virtuous DC could also cover all the party's mitigation/damage boost/healing needs.
Obviously the meta has changed significantly since that time. Back then the chances of getting a CW was 1 in 3 (there were only three strikers), nowadays its 1 in 5. Back then there was a very good chance that a CW would use AS, nowadays there are better alternatives. Which is why people like me are pushing for our powers to be "modernized" or updated.
As for PvP, considering how ArP on DoTs didn't work from mod 1-4 a PvP striker cleric was doomed from the start offense-wise. We don't have to bother considering it from a survivability perspective.
YES, I KNOW THAT YOU KNOW it's bugged. So WHY bring this up??? Esp we are soon gonna get overhauled, it is probable that this feat can be changed WITHOUT ever being fixed to do the "supposed"
My point is this, dont bring up an argument describing a "supposed", bring an argument that match the fact and reality that is happening.
All in all, let's not continue this senseless argument.. because there will be no end.
In the end, we are gonna get reworked.. Let's just hope the rework is for the best and match most of our expectations
The argument that some people badly assign their stats is not an argument for saying gs does not matter, it just means they have badly assigned their stats. Having 9000 over 4500 power is better, same goes for 1000 critical chance over 2000 chance and so on for most classes, you just have to be aware where the caps are.
Regarding the much vaunted AP gain, what the theoretical max is I don't know, I can get mine to 62% (sprite companion, 3500 recovery, 22 cha). But since anyone can have 22 cha if they choose, and 2% from the sprite companion might be a waste of zen for many, the thing that matters here is how much you put in recovery, since having 2600 recovery gives you 57% that is not a big difference.
So going back to what I first said, other classes have motivation to make their classes more potent via higher stats. If the cleric has been typecast as the buffbot (because our healing is now so weak compared to the warlock), then there is not much to aim for beyond 13k gs. Others will say that it does not matter, I say it should matter, the fact that the cleric cannot strive to become an uber cleric with say a 19k gs is inexcusable. For those who truly want to be buffbots then Cryptic should provide meaningful ways where one can really boost this, for those that want to be uber healers, because that really is the traditional role of a cleric, Cryptic must make it possible that they don't get out healed 3 to 1 by the warlock with their one feat vs the many healing feats of the cleric (also inexcusable). Right now neither of these exist, people are apologizing for the current cleric are apologizing for broken design.
I played a cleric for a few days and deleted it because it didn't feel right. I didn't like doing ranged magic attacks, I much rather use mace and shield with it also.
I'm bringing it up because I thought you are/were being rational. You obviously aren't.
I guess I should spell it out for you then: you brought up the argument that Power doesn't benefit the (defensive) DC as much and that the DC's GS seems somewhat pointless. Now, IF Linked Spirit was working properly then it would give defensive DC types the motivation to stack PvE stats and ultimately this would improve their quality of life (solo-wise) as well as allow them to heal (and give people significant buffs in PvE) as normal. See the line of reasoning now?
Defensive-wise, I pointed out that stats were never the problem. As a result of that line of reasoning then I'm basically saying that a better class mechanic, implemented through powers/feats/whatever, should be implemented in order to improve DC survivability in PvE/PvP. Perhaps they could replace Sooth with a class feature power that gives +50% control resist per level or something.
That is a truly pathetic excuse considering how my argument IS based on fact and reason (I'm pretty sure I'm not the one trying to argue facts here) and you make it sound like akromatik didn't just announce the cleric advocate position.
What exactly did you think we're doing here?
If you're willing to just close your eyes and let the devs do their job then do that. Don't go around randomly quoting people who are more than willing do more just because you think we should follow your example. Some of us simply learned to be more proactive after the whole mod3 GWF fiasco.
The DC doesn't need to be typecast as a buffbot because it has always specialized in buffs, specifically damage buffs and mitigation buffs. Do you honestly think that the reason your allies are alive in PvE is more because of your actual healing, and not because of Hallowed Ground/Divine Armor/Anointed Army/Foresight/Astral Shield? Healing DOES help, but it has always been secondary survivability-wise. It's always been that way, even in beta. Consider this: Forgemaster's Flame has always done more healing than Astral Shield. It's cooldown is shorter, and it's our strongest healing power. But would it make the top 3 of any DC's list of best defensive powers? Or consider another scenario: given the option to use divine Astral Shield OR Healing Word +Soothing Light (significantly higher healing) on someone who you expect is going to receive or has just received massive damage, which power/s would you use?
Hell it's that way even in tabletop D&D. In an actual D&D fight, a cleric only stops to heal when someone absolutely needs it. Otherwise a cleric is usually busy actually fighting monsters him/herself and casting defensive/offensive spells. The devs have just been generous enough to provide support (Anointed Champion, Faithful paragon path) fpr players who just want a traditional, non-D&D MMO healer. The feats/powers are broken, but the fact is that the playstyle does have support and with the rework stuff can get fixed/updated. And there is nothing broken with the design: Faithful buffs allies so there are benefits to using heals even when less actual healing is required.
Finally Devoted Clerics are not Battle Clerics. Think Goldmoon from the Dragonlance series. It's the scholarly cleric-type which focuses on spells. Adding in Battle Cleric first would have resulted in 4 out of the original 5 classes being melee classes.
I miss some of the 3.5 cleric stuff. Being a divine engine of destruction is fun.
No kidding. True sight, harm, heal, resist magic, free movement. And then the three most important things. Plate Armor, Draw upon Holy Might, and Righteous Magic.
Imagine clerics with that in this game.
But it is not.
Who told you that load of old cobblers? I have four DCs, three of which are level 60.
My Dwarf DO has the Virtuous Tree and two feats from the Righteous Tree (Righteous Rage and Ethereal Boon) and everything he could get to increase damage and his Divinity Regeneration.
He has Profound Righteous armour, a Greater Plague Fire, a Soulforged and Rank 8 Radiant, Azure and Dark enchants,
about 5k Power, >3k Crit, 2.6k Defence and ~2k Armour Penetration.
He does not have as much Recovery as I'd like (1.1k), but something has to give.
He is BY FAR the most successful of my DCs, especially in solo play. In the PvP campaign he has the first 9 Achievements and has 9/40 Triple Kills. His spot heals from Soothing Light with Cycle of Change is phenomenal and he is the only one where people in PvP ever stopped to say "Thanks!" and "Awesome heals!"
He usually uses Divine Glow or Forgemaster's Flame (as it auto-locks on target), Nimbussed Daunting Light and Sun Burst with Brand of the Sun and Lance of Faith At-Wills and Hammer of Fate or Flame Strike.
His stats are 21, 17, 14, 15, 24, 16.
But his damage is still paltry against equally geared characters of all other classes.
My first character is a Tiefling AC, and I have re-specced her at least three times.
Her stats are 17, 13, 13, 20, 20, 22
My Tiefling AC has the Faithful Tree up to Moon Shadow and the same two feats from the Righteous Tree and everything she could get to increase healing and buffing.
She has Grim Faithful armour, a Greater Terror, Rank 9 Barkshield and Rank 8 Silvery and Radiant enchants,
about 4.5k Power, <0.8k Crit, 2.8k Defence and ~<0.4k Armour Penetration but 3.2k Recovery.
In the Master of the Hunt Skirmish event she can lay down Hallowed Ground with about a 30 second gap in between.
She used to use Blessings of Battle for the buff and 9 Sacred Flames for the speed and temp hp, but recently switched to using Astral Seal the way my DO uses Brand of the Sun with Blessings of Battle as her main attack. BoB is MUCH slower, but does more damage per hit, seems to regenerate more Divinity and anyone standing near her is bound to get the buff as it is constantly being spammed.
She usually uses (Prestigious) Exaltation, Daunting Light (Astral Shield in Boss rooms of dungeons) and Sun Burst with Hallowed Ground or Flame Strike Dailies. She used to use Anointed Army or Hallowed Ground until she re-speced and got rid of Ancient Warding.
But she has very few Double Kills and NO Triple Kills, and cannot defend herself to save her life. Literally! Without a good team to defend her, she is dead meat.
All this tells me that the DC's design is so badly broken it needs some serious reworking. The dps, buffing and debuffing from the DO Dwarf should be a lot higher - so should his healing.
The healing and buffing from the Tiefling AC should be a LOT higher than it is, and her dps should be a lot better as well.
It also tells me you must have read something somewhere abut the Virtuous Tree being a Fail Build but never tried it yourself.
And none of us should have to be limited to using only 5 of the 12 heroic Feats because seven of them are just rubbish, only to find that most of the Paragon Feats are also rubbish or do not work properly.
I mean, Righteous Flames? Five Ranks for a 0.5 second stun? 0.1second PER RANK?!?
When between a CW, a GWF and a TR, the only reason I am locked out of my keyboard for 5 seconds instead of 20 is BECAUSE I AM DEAD AFTER FIVE SECONDS!! :mad:
The Dwarf lives a bit longer, but I think that is due to more hp from CON and a little more Tenacity on the Profound rather than the Grim.
The Warlock has decent Feat trees for:
Damage/Debuff/More Damage/some self-healing
Damage/Puppet Mastery/self-healing
Damage/Healing/Party Healing
So the DC should be able to do the same as a Healer, Buffer, Debuffer and a DPS War Priest. Or any hybrid you like.
I have tried it all ways. I also have a Dwarf AC I have re-speced several times and I'm pretty much getting sick of how poor the DC is.
Especially since I rolled a Dragonborn Warlock conflagrating everything to Oblivion and back and NEVER having had to drink a healing potion yet - in 30 levels!
And I turned a level 60 Halfling Whisperknife Saboteur into a Black Draconian and sorted out her initial rolls and she suddenly became Perma-Stealth with her Skulker's armour.
BAH!
~
So basically this isn't so much about GS as it is about power stacking, since it's the only stat with no diminishing returns. In effect it's a dump stat for once you have as much of everything else as you need. Not all classes benefit the same from stacking power though. You mention GWF's which are probably a good example, but they also benefit a lot from power stacking, because of how power scales with their dmg. It's not the same for all classes, and for example power stacking on GWF's didn't used to be nearly as useful until mod3 (I think that's right) that they changed how power affected many classes dmg output. The class this most benefited happened to be GWF's
So yes I think we can say that power stacking on a DC may not be as effective as stacking it on a different class. This can be good an bad. As you say it's like why invest all those resources on your DC if it doesn't do that much? True, maybe it's not worth it, or at least it's not a priority when you could be investing said resources in upgrading artefacts, etc. Of course this also has an upside and that is that you can obtain a comparable efectivness for essentially a much lower cost (less resources) Glass half empty, or glass half full? Depends on how you want to look at it.
I will personally never understand the never ending fixation on healing amounts and DC's that don't do much but heal people...Seems really boring to me especially with how the class mechanics are set up. Either way, healing has never been the primary focus of a DC in this game, it's simply one of our support mechanics. The primary focus is DR with passive healing support. There are then other buffs/debuffs and healing focused spells that people can use as they choose, based on what they prefer.
Honestly I can't say how good or bad a dps virtous build could be, in PVE at least, but yeah I could understand that the dmg from said build could not equal the benefit from the buffs/debuffs you could provide to the party with a diferent build. In regards to PVP well I'm not surprised at all. Offensive builds are never good in PVP. I don't know a single game that has quality PVP in which defensive oriented builds aren't the best. When has glass cannon ever been a recomended PVP set up?
Cleric's have been most efficient as buff bots for a long time now, it's not a new thing due to the appearance of the SW. What exactly is an uber cleric suposed to be? One that can instantly heal everybody from 0 HP to full or what? My clerics sitting at like 16.5k GS atm or so but I'm fully PVP geared, full defensive set up, righteous tree, AC, etc...If I was solely focused on offensive stats and power stacking I could have a GS quite a bit higher but I don't think that would necessarily make me a better cleric. When I choose to run PVE I don't change gear or enchants or anything, I just use the same gear and I have literally 0 issues, not only in regards to healing and supporting my group but also staying alive. Having more defensive stats to help stay alive just feels a lot more useful to me than vastly overstacking offensive stats . Anyways, we can probably all agree that it would be nice to see more balance for PVP in mod 5 since essentially every class will have undergone a major rework and balance; and more diversity for PVE players who are looking for diferent play styles
I stop playing this game, I think some other games have more to offer, for my taste.
So I really don't care anymore.
But you really are a stupid man thinking to be something else. You write wall of banalities and sell them as gold, thinking that noone have a better insight than yours. I'd really like to know what this attitude has bought you in real life. my little forum warrior!
I was stating my opinions, like everyone here should be doing, it is called a DISCUSSION FORUM after all !
If you want to discuss stupid, saying you don't care about the game and then spend your time writing ramblings here, what do you call that ?
Right now he's apparently doing his smug mastermind impression.
You have a party around you in PvP?
Well, as I say, my dps Virtuous/Righteous DO does better in PvP than my Healer Faithful/Righteous AC.
Aren't Hunter Rangers supposed to be Glass Cannons?
What about a Trickster Rogue in Perma-Stealth? I just made one by re-speccing one of my Halflings to a Draconian Whisperknife Saboteur with a free Race Re-Roll. I made her black and she looks pretty cool. Although, as a DC, I hate them with a passion almost as much as the CWs, I find it does take a lot of skill to keep the Stealth up at the moment, and the play-style is completely different. I just finished my first Daily level 60 Arena and Lord Protector's PvP and ended up with more AD than I could refine. I did not kill much, but I did get some prize gear for coming top as I kept capping 1 and 3 and died the fewest times.
But as soon as anything hit me, I was out of the fight. Frozen, dazed, stunned, just like my DCs - depending on the other guy's GS (mine is about 10k).
But I spent a lot more time running round before getting killed.
~
So, i stand corrected..
Well.. your FACT regarding linked spirit is based on an IF, which currently isnt working like you said it supposed to... again, why bother discussing this?
I was merely talking about how Linked Spirit giving based on our stat is NOT a implemented yet. And here you are, talking about something else entirely irrelevant in regards to my point.
TLDR-
Did I say something about healing at all in my previous comment of this thread? No.. Let's subject that in other more relevant discussions. Don't ramble too many things (esp irrelevant ones), people get headache...
Yes.. well, everything is not a fail build if the context is a solo play.. because it can be done by every other tree (although more slowly), but also most importantly there is no immediate comparison to other class
I hope i'm wrong in this, but I'm guessing not one of your 9/40 triples kill is achieved in competitive PvP? Because let's face it, Glass Canon spec die very easily in premade with the little prone/CC we have.
Does that prove that Virtuous got awesome heal (even surpassing other tree)? No, it just means at that time, there is someone appreciating your heals. I got lots of praise too from my faithful deflect AC DC in pvp, from protecting CW back when they got less control, to GWF when rotating between nodes as support.. It's just that, its a pug match.. And the matches are often not very tight / competitive.. (but in a balanced match, correctly specced DC is still very useful. Only the cleric design provided very little variance to viability)
In tight PvP situation, virtuous can be replaced by other tree better for the support, because the bonuses arent that well worth it DPS wise, we got too much proned/CCed and very little means to counter it.. Things we have for virtuous are some neat initial burst, and minuscule healing (compared to damage that can be done by other people) and that's it..
For PvE virtuous, it is kinda flawed in that it restrict encounter usage. You can never slot good defensive spells like AS/HW into offensive rotation, or Divine Glow/Sunburst to healing/defensive rotation without interfering Cycle of Change. It just isnt a maximized setting and too much restriction on the tree.. add that with Daunting Light feat which are good to have and HAVE to be used (which is divinity exhaustive btw), otherwise it is wasted.
Little heal bonus and moderate-ish damage boost.. I'd say this virtue tree as the one with the most ambiguous identity. Moreover, WTF is the second tier doing there? (PoD & Restoration mastery feat)..
You might be refering to archery tree, it might be an exception since archery tree really does give a nice boost to ranged DPS. Like, 30% shorter cooldowns, 20% damage boost to Encounters, 10% Danmage+25% crit in certain range, great capstone feat and all other REALLY good feats... But when confronted, still dies more easily than the more popular and more viable combat tree pathfinder.
Just so you know, he intended that for tyrtallow.. hence the quote
I strongly believe it's not just the argument, but the way he said it. I'm all for good discussion. And I do agree with quite all of spaniard's perspective and he brought his point in such an elegant NON-AGGRESIVE way.
Does tyrtallow need/allowed to bring his point of view across? YES, everyone does
Does he need to present it in such a condescending manner? NO
Yes, I agree with you... Altho we also have to consider that many people that chose DC when starting out, do so because such people DO like to heal. And I do consider myself to be one such "heal-wh*re", possibly jazzfong too.. LOL. But as time pass by, the more we learn about our class mechanic, having mitigation & buff as primary role with healing as secondary isnt such a bad thing... especially since we know the way the game is designed does not really require heavy healing and for all class composition to be viable to finish a dungeon, eg. for no class to be mandatory.
1 Drawback from this mitigation/buff route is that the contribution we provided isnt really visible, which is why to some people this class is kind of not really fulfilling to play... You can never see your contribution beside the fact that the dungeon runs more smoothly with your presence