test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Why are warlocks doing 3x Healing and Damage as clerics with same gear?
encadi
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 67
This is a bit depressing as a cleric, I know we sitll have our buffs and debuffs but still feels so dishearting
Post edited by encadi on
0
Comments
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
Lets put it this way, There is NO WAY a wizzy will get a 200K + crit without some buffing/ debuffing going on. Clerics are the best set up to accomplish this type of mitigation... smart players know this. It is disheartening that we are now dominated in yet another category on the little pop up at the end of a dungeon, but our position hasn't really changed. Do what I do, ignore it! I measure the success of the run based on how smooth it felt, not by the end numbers. The Cleric is there to make the others look good, it's a thankless role and that is why we are so few.
Shazaam - 60 Tiefling CW
Link - 60 Menzoberranzan Renegade (Drow) HR
Naruto - 60 Half-Orc TR
Moose - 60 Human GWF
T-Wrecks 60 Half-Orc GF
Drag King - 60 Dragonborn SW
Because Clerics have been consistently FUBAR'd over and over.
But it is true that people who think DC = Healer are wrong. It's a myth. That is just one specialist build you can have. But the Warlock Paragon paths are so much better put together than the DC Paragons.
Also, they out-heal us because a Warlock's healing is based on dps and Life Steal. It relies on hitting many mobs with Infernal, Dark Magicks, rather than Divine Power granted by a deity of Light.
And because the Temptation Paragon feats are specifically designed to boost healing from Life Steal.
And Warlocks are not subjected to Healing Depression and Righteousness. And my Dragonborn blood gives her a bonus to incoming healing from all sources to boot!
Field Medic is also based on how many of YOUR hp have been healed, not just other people's. That is why you can see a GWF near the top, as they have been chugging potions and using Restoring Strike, and Feats that heal when they activate Unstoppable.
Field Medic should only count healing you have given to party members.
And they should have some other measures such as Champion Buffer, Champion Debuffer etc.
My Warlock often gets an ENORMOUS stack of temporary hp, even when she is barely damaged. It can be a quarter to a third of her health bar.
I have four DCs, three level 60 and one level 57.
I have one Warlock, level 27. The difference is dazzlingly noticeable.
So what happened to this rationale that if Clerics got full healing from their powers, they would be immortal, unkillable and never need to use a potion, and never need to use Stones of Life, much less buy them?
What about the Warlock?
And, really, since when in AD&D has the by far, far, far most powerful healing come from a vial of alchemical concoction, while Priests have been so weak? AND have lousy damage?
Seriously, in the last 10 days or so I have taken my Warlock from the beach to PE to Cragmire Crypt and Storm the Keep, via PvP and all the daily skirmishes, dungeons, main quests and daily Foundry quests, and I have not had to drink a single healing Potion yet (except the Battle Healing potions in PvP).
I am not joking.
And she is not even a Temptation build!
And my 13k GS Grim Faithful Tiefling, high INT, high CHA, high Power and Recovery Healer Build Anointed Champion is NEVER going to get ANY Triple Kills in PvP, never mind 40. She has enough trouble getting a Single Kill, much less a Double.
Even my 15k GS Profound Righteous/Virtuous Dwarven Battle Berserker War Priest Divine Oracle has been stuck on 9 Triple Kills for ages.
Seriously, developers, as much as i like the Warlock, the Cleric needs some serious rethinking.
~
Source: https://twitter.com/CrypticGMC
Let's hope they'll do good.
The curse only ups the SW's dps not the parties so that isn't a party buff.
Not even sure if this is enough... Might need to rewrite the class from the beginning to make it really good and powerful.
In the remote possibility that they rewrote the class, how great would it be if they made it look closer to the classic D&D, a mace and shield, magic casting and a turn undead spell.
Thanks for the link, it gave me hope for our lovely class
I guess from here now on I need to start preparing for mod 5.
buff... to be honest I wouldn't call plague fire a DC debuf. so we end up with high prophet, holy ground and DG.
its not bad buff but some classes have buffs as well
for example CW with steal time on the mastery tub will give the party combat advantage that overall might be a better buff (I know that all buff can stack)
linked spirit is also god buff with many ppl reach the diminishing value and its so hard to proc so its not that amazing (the power buff can be lethal I admit
at the end damage reduction is the only unique skill we have, we can reduce lot of damage that some consider vital
recently went to couple of 4 ppl CN runs. and I am not sure that on last boss SW can replace DC
combining PVE and PVP we are the worst class by far, lets hope they will fix it soon.
I have felt like that MANY times. But I just rolled a different race with a different build!
But hang on in there. I have been waiting for them to get to the DC and make some proper changes, and hopefully that is what they will now do.
I have a:
Tiefling AC 60
Dwarf AC 60
Halfling AC 57 (mainly a leadership mule - I'll probably respec her)
Dwarf DO 60
And the DO is the best and he is speced for dps and solo play. He does better in PvP by far.
I posted something here that would make a big difference if it were implemented. I also put a version in as a bug report.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?688561-devs-righteousness&p=8170081&viewfull=1#post8170081
~
It definitely doesn't help that there's no meter for mitigation, either. Mitigation allows people to survive potential 1-hit-KOs. It allows strikers to play more freely or even aggressively. It is a survivability multiplier far, FAR more effective than lifesteal.
The Neverwinter DC has NEVER been "just" about healing. That's like saying that any overgeared CW is "just" control. If all your DC does is heal (zero accompanying buffs)... wrong game, I'd say.
Another major problem is that DC class mechanics (some), powers(several) and feats (lots of them) have more or less gone stale, given recent changes. Our attacks animations are too slow - powers take too long to fire off. Despite being the only class whose primary stat offers control resist and who (thematically, and in ALL D&D versions) specialize in protecting themselves from harmful effects we are much more vulnerable to CC effects than any other class. It boggles the mind how things ended up that way. Finally, too many powers/feats are far too situational or have very little practical value - this was acceptable back in mod 1, 2 but no longer given recent changes.
The devs promise to address the latter but it remains to be seen if they plan to address the former. If people who claim to be "good" DC players can't even figure out how powerful Hallowed Ground is by themselves, then small wonder how other players ended up thinking that a "healing" SW is somehow superior to a good DC.
They are very different animals - bottomline is that people looking for a non-primary striker should get the striker/healer warlock anyway, while people looking for a multiplier/healer should pick the DC.
As for the major rework, one should probably hope and wait and see, but if forced to guess what it will be, it will be mostly healing oriented (and probably still not outdo the single warlock healing feat).
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
Tbh i kind of disagree.
I would do the followign and see how it goes.
- Remove Healing depression from PvP
- Remove Righteouness
- Increase all cleric healing values by 25-50%
- Increase overall damage by 25-50%
- Remove Lifestealing from the game
- Make so Temp Warlocks Only heal themselves and onyl ONE person in the group (based on lowest hp)
This way it will bring Clerics to their healer role
warlock healing is through life-steal so.....that is nigh-guaranteed to never happen. even if it did, it would just force people to use pots instead which would be an annoyance when doing dailies.
also, life-stealing isn't the real issue with clerics. the actual issue is that clerics heal too slow and in such a confined radius that it's generally sub-par. there is also an issue with finding players that are hidden from view behind mobs which makes targetting them more difficult. not to mention how you can "miss" a heal by just being slightly off-target by like an inch. clerics are also incapable of healing through at-wills without using their tab feature.
how often do clerics attempt to heal someone and they just used a pot instead of waiting on you? i, for one, remember seeing that frequently.
cleric heals are simply inconvenient and can not be compared to a constant stream of aoe heals within 20 ft.
I don't mind remain as a buffer/debuffer, as long as in the end, people don't annoy me with stupid comments "You did nothing, why did we bring you".......
I totally agree with you
in T1 nobody ask for DC for moths now (if I join ppl usually happy but in general no one ask of DC)
in T2 there are many party that don't take DC now, its still common but not a must
in T2.5 they still prefer DC in a party
most have enough dmage to finish last boss without our damage increase
and as you said, there are alternative to healing
I guess neverwinter doesn't want a class to be a must in a party (I have no idea why)
but if they don't need us for healing what should we do?
many consider the faithful path to be good, but its all about healing
the righteousness path only got healing step and virtuous only got only rising hope...
One is that many DC class mechanics/powers/feats are dated, though the devs have already said that they're taking care of this. Atm we're stuck on "wait and see" mode.
The other is that being a DC is a thankless job for many people because there is just no concrete way to measure the DC's actual contribution to the party's damage/survivability. So much that several DC players here don't even know just how useful their powers actually are. Going by healing done is laughable, since both a bad DC and a good DC can easily end up with similar "healing" done for wildly different reasons - the bad DC may have been a semi-afker, for example, while a very good DC may have been giving out so much mitigation that minimal extra healing was required outside of pots/player lifesteal.
Anyway consider that mitigation is the one most powerful supportive attributes in the game, increasing the value of HP/Lifesteal/all incoming healing, and all you have to do to apply it is drop Hallowed Ground/Divine Armor/Astral Shield/heal something and proc effects like Foresight. Essentially it's like a massive HP increase + indirect passive healing. But it doesn't show up anywhere.
Hallowed Ground is easily one of the most powerful dailies in the game. The effect is like giving someone roughly the equivalent of Perfect Vorpal, but given the comments here you'd think all it did was make the ground look prettier.
My Tiefling AC Main is all Healing and mostly Faithful build.
High INT, high CHA, massive Recovery, AP and Recharge
About 13k GS with Grim Faithful gear from PvP.
She is just not needed to heal in dungeons where the rest of the team are 15k+ and Warriors (GF, GWF, HR) can heal themselves, and SW can heal everyone during combat.
And they do enough damage they do not need her Battle Buffs.
My Dwarven DO Main is all dps and debuffing, mostly Virtuous and Righteous build.
High STR, CON and WIS, massive Power, Crit and ArPen, max Divine Power Regeneration.
About 15k GS with Profound Righteous from PvP.
He is just not needed to heal in dungeons where the rest of the team are 15k+ and Warriors (GF, GWF, HR) can heal themselves, and SW can heal everyone during combat.
And they do enough damage they do not need his dps or Battle Debuffs.
In solo play, the Dwarven DO is the better survivor and finishes dailies much more quickly.
And he is doing much better in the PvP campaign
The best advice I can give clerics for pve right now is:
1) Respec into the virtuous tree as far as nimbus
2) Get a PF/Terror
3) Use High Prophet
4) Use non-divine AS, divine Divine Glow, divine Daunting Light if a temptlock is in the party
5) Use foresight and hallowed ground
Now you have turned from a simple healer into a powerhouse of buffs and debuffs. YOU drive the dps of your group into insane levels. And you do more dps yourself.
I would however:
1) Like righteousness removed or reduced
2) Like more damage potential
The number one thing I want to see for clerics though is more dps ability. Same goes for GFs. I don't think a decently geared cleric should lag so far behind an equally geared GWF or CW. I still expect us to usually be the bottom of the dps chart, but still be relatively close to number 4.
...
Tired of running dungeons with exploiters and cheaters? Join the legit channel by visiting http://goo.gl/1zfnTS to apply!
Performing ritual pony sacrifices to Tiamat to earn favor with the RNG Gods since 2014.
...
Is that the way you show your skill? Just firing off whatever spell is ready?
For me is so ****ing boring I would cry. At least dps can see their big numbers.
Even PUGs rarely get stressed if they don't have a DC for their 2.5 any more...
Another thing about being just the buffbot is that there is no motivation to increase your gear score, since buff/debuff all have zero relation to any gear score attributes. You can go into a dungeon with 9000 power or 900 power and it makes no difference, since with both you will still likely be last on paingiver, and with a warlock in the party you will not be number one field medic either. The only thing to increase would be defense and hitpoints, but that is simply to make you more survivable, they don't in any way improve your buff/debuffer abilities.
What makes the Neverwinter DC unique is that to accomplish this (being a leader) it only needs a few key powers - the "standard" trio is A.Seal, A.Shield and Hallowed Ground/Divine Armor/maybe Anointed Army. Whatever else you decide to slot is up to you.
Essentially you only need 3, and sometimes even just 2, of the 9 power slots all characters get to dedicate to "buffing". There's nothing preventing you from dedicating the rest of those power slots to improving your DPS, if that's what you want. Atm our arsenal is dated and badly needs to be "modernized", as someone put it, but maybe you'll get lucky with your crits or land in a party with a CW who likes stacking things on top of each other, so that divine Searing Light spam lands you a spot in the top 3 of paingiver. One can dream.
This all Neverwinter DC 101.
Calling us buffbots is a gross oversimplification, especially considering that to power up all our strongest buffs we NEED to be doing something else more productive (eg attacking/healing).
Untrue. Not that gearscore after 12k-13k really matters, but as far as character development goes stronger characters will be able to use their dailies more frequently. Stronger attacker types who spam attacking encounters to build AP/DP faster for their dailies/key encounters will actually be able to contribute significantly to overall damage through their own personal DPS, or at least some DCs used to be able to do so in previous mods. Stronger healer types will grant higher Linked Spirit shared stats since the way the feat is supposed to work people around you are getting a portion of YOUR stats. Even Anointed Champion, because of its natural defensive bent, gets Battle Fervor in the Virtuous paragon feat path as a sort of compensation, which grants a portion of DC's power to its allies.
This is also Neverwinter DC 101.
...
Tired of running dungeons with exploiters and cheaters? Join the legit channel by visiting http://goo.gl/1zfnTS to apply!
Performing ritual pony sacrifices to Tiamat to earn favor with the RNG Gods since 2014.
...