I just want to point out some illogical statements here.. if its the pvp and pvp whiners ruining this game.. then why did they touch the CW at all? I mean literally if they just fixed orb, I think most CW pvpers would've been happy enough.
To me there are plenty of qq'ers, whiners and nerfers to spread the blame around on both side. Stop trying to pin it in any one set of people.
I think a lot of reasonable people on both sides, asked for slight adjustments, not massive wave changes. Due to the schedule, they also released this before it was ready. Many people pointed out the issues involved before that final release, including the op on some of the CW skills.
I suspect sometimes in the next month to see a few more things adjusted around.
BTW, there is literally no way you are going to make a MMO to follow rules on a paper game.. I mean just no way.
Also, Ive never played a game in 20 years of MMO play that was balanced.. on either side.. I mean my Warden in Lotro could solo elite landscape , do all pve group quests and solo intro epic dungeons ten levels lower.. was that balanced? When my Loremaster couldnt do any of that...
Was it balanced that my troll warrior in EQ could stompfest anything in early days of EQ pvp land?
This has been going on forever..
Some suggestions to improve forums.
1. PVP should have its own forum thread.
2. ALL classes should have their own thread, please remove the GWF and GF combo threads, its really bad for both classes.
3. <snip>
Gentelman crush love CW, what was done was a persons desire to see a class operate in a way that it can and enjoy it while you can.
Fixing it back just means that your job is that much more important, since you broke it ... you fix it mentality.
What class does Gentleman Crush play? CW (BINGO!!!)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
0
rosicrucianistMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2014
Being that's Wizard's themselves aren't following the rules anymore, just having published the 5th edition of DnD which is very different than 4E, I don't think Cryptic has anything to worry about...
0
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited August 2014
Sit back and enjoy the show....
The clock of neverwinter is at about 12:30am
Last call is at what? 1 or 2?
(shrugs)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
0
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited August 2014
I want this game to do well..
Why?
Perhaps because it reminds me of my childhood D&D exp.
Perhaps because I invested a lot of time into being here.
Perhaps it is because of the people I enjoy in game.
Right now I deeply feel that this game is killing itself with nerfs.
It has to stop.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
There are too many people around here who want "class balance" in the name of PVP, but their idea of "balance" would completely destroy the cooperative nature of D&D. Their idea of "balance" is that, given equal skill and gear, any class should be able to beat any other class. And that simply shouldn't be the case at all when you have classes that have different abilities that are needed to carry the group through the adventure.
PVP is inherently in opposition to PVE because the nature of PVP wants to homogenize the classes so that they are all equal, but the nature of PVE wants to diversify the classes so that each brings their own unique and necessary abilities to conquer a dungeon. The two can't exist simultaneously.
You've nailed PvP "balance" pretty succinctly, but you've missed the mark on whether PvP and PvE balance can coexist. Your premise is that different class roles for PvE necessitate one class being dominant over another in PvP. This is not true. Different is not equal to more or less powerful. What PvPers really want to see are counters, not nerfs. Don't take the few outcries on the forums of people that lack imagination as the end all and be all of what we are seeking.
If it makes sense for a CW to have dominant control skills, fine. If it makes sense for them to have ridiculously high damage from a PvE perspective (and I'm really not sure that that's true), then fine again. As a TR then, I would like something that counters CC and mitigates that massive damage whether it's skills, inherent abilities, or gear possibilities. These things would also serve me in a PvE environment and can be balanced effectively. PvPers don't want all classes to have the same abilities. We want all classes to have an opportunity to compete against the different abilities of those classes. Again, it's not the cries from the PvP community that are making sweeping changes that are far too drastic for what they are supposed to fix. We want moderate, well thought out, changes that tweak balance rather than wholesale changes who's impact can't be predicted.
If you are in the DnD-ness of this game, Neverwinter Night 1 and 2 are still going right along, with many servers to choose from that allow you to get whatever dnd experience you are looking for, from unlimited level action pvp servers to replicating the pnp rulebook as close as possible servers to pure RP only with no combat servers. And if you dont like any of them, you can make your own server adding all the content and using whatever level of "true to DnD" you feel like.
I wasted five million AD promoting the Foundry.
0
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited August 2014
People don't feel comfortable investing in enchantments that will boost their characters much anymore because of the simple fact that every time we have invested in something, a few weeks later it was nerfed out of virtual reality.
Why buy rank 10 recovery enchantments for $140-150.00 x 7 just to lose your investment in a few weeks.
Many players are calling every set of nerfs a scam now.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Good lores and stories are not affected by games, movies or audiences.
Don't say that MMO players are not intellectual or uncultured. I don't like ANY game lore, because they are written according to the game logic and not to reason; that's why I only play games because of the gameplay.
Good lores and stories are sustained by themselves, not by other franchises based on them OR the need of the readers.
(´･ ω ･`)
0
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
There are a lot of other flaws that are more important in making the game unhealthy. Hard to say what the end result will be. Personally I'd say the game won't be as long lasting as other memorable games, but there are people who accept and look past all of the flaws they exist for whatever reason. There have been many recent changes that have been so bad for the player. But in some cases there have actually been good things like the egg event to try clear backlog, reinforcement kits, bazaar reductions. So how long this game lives depends on if they can continue to provide things that are actually good for players instead of constantly trying to restrict them and also lying to them. Still, hopefully another company can release an MMO that does cater more to the quality players deserve. I definitely don't expect that here.
I wish people would just stop saying that this game is not meant for other people who do not play the same way that they do.
The main thing is this is NOT DND. if you want to play DND go get together with some friends and roll some dice. This is a computer game set in a DND setting. Nothing in the game is even remotely close to actual dice chucking and role playing. from the website:
Neverwinter is a free-to-play, action MMORPG based on the acclaimed Dungeons & Dragons fantasy roleplaying game
Notice that they do not state that it is DND. It is an action MMORPG. they dont even use the DND Title like the OP states.
This game incorporates the (probably) biggest setting in DND and uses the history of that to provide and entertaining game to play. If this game was exactly the same except set in the WOW world would you be complaining that people are wrecking your DND game? No you would be either enjoying the game for what it is or not playing.
Which D&D? Red box? AD&D? 2nd / 3rd / 4th / 5th edition? Homebrew rules? MOnty haul? RP-heavy? "Your" D&D isn't "my" D&D, which isn't "their" D&D.
A PC game can't really recreate a good PnP group. But by the same measure, a tabletop group can't handle the infinitely more complex math at work in a PC game. To make things work in an environment such as this, compromises need to be made, and other areas can be improved upon.
So, to me, this is more a case of your playstyle not meshing with the "DMs style". It's not bad, it's not wrong. It just *is*. Much like there are people who prefer "this" D&D over the other licensed MMO. Very different playstyles and character building options. Neither is wrong - just different ways to get to the same goal - which is to have fun.
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Which D&D? Red box? AD&D? 2nd / 3rd / 4th / 5th edition? Homebrew rules? MOnty haul? RP-heavy? "Your" D&D isn't "my" D&D, which isn't "their" D&D.
A PC game can't really recreate a good PnP group. But by the same measure, a tabletop group can't handle the infinitely more complex math at work in a PC game. To make things work in an environment such as this, compromises need to be made, and other areas can be improved upon.
So, to me, this is more a case of your playstyle not meshing with the "DMs style". It's not bad, it's not wrong. It just *is*. Much like there are people who prefer "this" D&D over the other licensed MMO. Very different playstyles and character building options. Neither is wrong - just different ways to get to the same goal - which is to have fun.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!" pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all." looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
I really wish I still had my old copy of the red box....
And yes, Boo is trained to go for the eyes. Other sensitive areas, too - but he'll only hit below the belt if he's been drinking. He gets surly after a couple...
The only real D&D is straight-up Basic rules, where "Elf" was not a race, but a class.
THIS
My hamster does not like your tone. Away with ye.
0
clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
edited August 2014
When people say balance I assume that most are talking about damage output balance. I agree with those here that D&D is not about balance and it is also difficult to compare a turn base game to a real time game, however balance can be achieved in another way. I think they should try introduce balance in the sense that if one class is good at killing everything fast, then other classes could be given advantages in other things. D&D is not just about combat if they could introduce certain non combat game play elements they could provide another form of balance.
They could introduce things like skill checks which gives certain classes advantages over others, for example make traps costlier (lets be honest the traps are lame), if tripping a trap caused instant death and say multiple injuries at once then a class like the rogue would be more appreciated. If they made things like poison damage more severe and a cleric was good at countering that then they would have certain advantages over others. Also, if they could introduce enemy units that had advantages over some classes and weaknesses over others (for example some could have magical resistance/immunity and others physical resistance/immunity), that would end the 5 cw or sw Castle Never kind of runs and also help end the 1st class vs 2nd class character classes (unless you like seeing the "no hr/tr/dc/gf need apply" in lfg chat) .
0
boltages3Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 16Arc User
When people say balance I assume that most are talking about damage output balance. I agree with those here that D&D is not about balance and it is also difficult to compare a turn base game to a real time game, however balance can be achieved in another way. I think they should try introduce balance in the sense that if one class is good at killing everything fast, then other classes could be given advantages in other things. D&D is not just about combat if they could introduce certain non combat game play elements they could provide another form of balance.
They could introduce things like skill checks which gives certain classes advantages over others, for example make traps costlier (lets be honest the traps are lame), if tripping a trap caused instant death and say multiple injuries at once then a class like the rogue would be more appreciated. If they made things like poison damage more severe and a cleric was good at countering that then they would have certain advantages over others. Also, if they could introduce enemy units that had advantages over some classes and weaknesses over others (for example some could have magical resistance/immunity and others physical resistance/immunity), that would end the 5 cw or sw Castle Never kind of runs and also help end the 1st class vs 2nd class character classes (unless you like seeing the "no hr/tr/dc/gf need apply" in lfg chat) .
This is a really nice idea,i know this game is made in a way that every class can just simply go on its own and you dont need anyone..not even a healer cause you can just stack other things to keep you alive. It kinda does kill the enjoyment.
Also i would like if normal questline (one if the most interesting things game is offering..and really short sadly) would be doable with a full party,with of course exp bigger and mobs/bosses harder (?),and if it would be much more boosted. I had friends who wanted to play with me trough it,but it just didnt work cause its doable only with 2 in party,3rd one doesnt get the quests done.
To be honest,while doing daily things on my 60 chars, i ask myself how good it would be to have something interesting to do after finishing campaign daily quests...what if there was max lvl 100...storyline much more extended than it is,much more slower lvling,where it actually matters when you finish a quest...not just,same thing,day over day..for some reward after a week.
But then again..there are too many ppl who are locked only to pvp and instant lvling,reaching endgame by all shortcuts possible.
0
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited August 2014
What I'd like to see is have all Mobs everywhere be like the Event ones, that scale with their attackers. Just give them a minimum level for the area and some sort of indicator if the player is way too low level, showing that they may get creamed.
New player here. So I got to level 11. The game doesn't feel like D&D what so ever. The only comparison I can make is that it feels a little like DDO where you have lots of instances. Haven't got to fully enjoy it yet because I am playing at FPS rates of 10 to 30.
They need to make more zones have progression to them like IWD where you can't get in unless 10kgs and 3 boons. Make mod 5 15k and maxed boons, make the mobs hit like trucks, and make the new items actually better than tier 2 armor sets. I've seen people complain about pve balance, and this or that class is over powered. The reason for it is that we're way overgeared for every bit of content. 14k is easy to get and it out gears everything. We need content of the difficulty level similar to running CN at min gs.
Which D&D? Red box? AD&D? 2nd / 3rd / 4th / 5th edition? Homebrew rules? MOnty haul? RP-heavy? "Your" D&D isn't "my" D&D, which isn't "their" D&D.
A PC game can't really recreate a good PnP group. But by the same measure, a tabletop group can't handle the infinitely more complex math at work in a PC game. To make things work in an environment such as this, compromises need to be made, and other areas can be improved upon.
So, to me, this is more a case of your playstyle not meshing with the "DMs style". It's not bad, it's not wrong. It just *is*. Much like there are people who prefer "this" D&D over the other licensed MMO. Very different playstyles and character building options. Neither is wrong - just different ways to get to the same goal - which is to have fun.
Quiet! Everybody! My d12 landed off the table. Re-roll or read it as is? I'm waiting for that mob of imps to finish rolling initiative...
"I don't know, I'm making it up as I go..." Featured Foundry Quest:Whispers of an Ancient Evil [v3] - NW-DQ4WKW6ZG Foundry Quest: Harper Chronicles: Blacklake - NW-DCPA4W2Q5
pfft don't you know game masters are god ,they decide how the game is played.Thus your all a slave to will of PWI.
<meme removed per RoC>
==============
I am a hero wannabe. :<
0
dragoness10Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 780Arc User
edited August 2014
In the back of Monstrous Manuals is a blank monster page for people to copy, and fill out with new monsters they created that are NOT in the book.
Every Dungeon Master can draw up their own dungeons and plots NOT listed in the "core lore" books.
Everyone can roll up a new character, and a new storyline for them.
Dungeons & Dragons itself was designed to be use as a basis of creation within a large structure of game rules. As long as the creativity keeps going it's Dungeons & Dragons. Praise ye Gary Gygax.
" I tried to figure out the enigma that was you, and then I realized mastering Wild Magic was easier." - Old Wizard in Waterdeep
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
Right now the lore, story, and setting are all very D&D. Forgotten Realms is my favorite setting too. For gameplay I would prefer 2nd or 3.5 but that would lead to major imbalances and it would be impossible to balance from a pvp perspective.
Also: prestige classes.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
... Tired of running dungeons with exploiters and cheaters? Join the legit channel by visiting http://goo.gl/1zfnTS to apply!
Performing ritual pony sacrifices to Tiamat to earn favor with the RNG Gods since 2014.
...
0
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
In the back of Monstrous Manuals is a blank monster page for people to copy, and fill out with new monsters they created that are NOT in the book.
Every Dungeon Master can draw up their own dungeons and plots NOT listed in the "core lore" books.
Everyone can roll up a new character, and a new storyline for them.
Dungeons & Dragons itself was designed to be use as a basis of creation within a large structure of game rules. As long as the creativity keeps going it's Dungeons & Dragons. Praise ye Gary Gygax.
That is not what I was getting at.
I was saying changing our skills over and over and over... until they no longer even resemble D&D skills.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Comments
Gentelman crush love CW, what was done was a persons desire to see a class operate in a way that it can and enjoy it while you can.
Fixing it back just means that your job is that much more important, since you broke it ... you fix it mentality.
What class does Gentleman Crush play? CW (BINGO!!!)
The clock of neverwinter is at about 12:30am
Last call is at what? 1 or 2?
(shrugs)
Why?
Perhaps because it reminds me of my childhood D&D exp.
Perhaps because I invested a lot of time into being here.
Perhaps it is because of the people I enjoy in game.
Right now I deeply feel that this game is killing itself with nerfs.
It has to stop.
You've nailed PvP "balance" pretty succinctly, but you've missed the mark on whether PvP and PvE balance can coexist. Your premise is that different class roles for PvE necessitate one class being dominant over another in PvP. This is not true. Different is not equal to more or less powerful. What PvPers really want to see are counters, not nerfs. Don't take the few outcries on the forums of people that lack imagination as the end all and be all of what we are seeking.
If it makes sense for a CW to have dominant control skills, fine. If it makes sense for them to have ridiculously high damage from a PvE perspective (and I'm really not sure that that's true), then fine again. As a TR then, I would like something that counters CC and mitigates that massive damage whether it's skills, inherent abilities, or gear possibilities. These things would also serve me in a PvE environment and can be balanced effectively. PvPers don't want all classes to have the same abilities. We want all classes to have an opportunity to compete against the different abilities of those classes. Again, it's not the cries from the PvP community that are making sweeping changes that are far too drastic for what they are supposed to fix. We want moderate, well thought out, changes that tweak balance rather than wholesale changes who's impact can't be predicted.
Why buy rank 10 recovery enchantments for $140-150.00 x 7 just to lose your investment in a few weeks.
Many players are calling every set of nerfs a scam now.
Don't say that MMO players are not intellectual or uncultured. I don't like ANY game lore, because they are written according to the game logic and not to reason; that's why I only play games because of the gameplay.
Good lores and stories are sustained by themselves, not by other franchises based on them OR the need of the readers.
Boom boom! This right here my buddy!
Which D&D? Red box? AD&D? 2nd / 3rd / 4th / 5th edition? Homebrew rules? MOnty haul? RP-heavy? "Your" D&D isn't "my" D&D, which isn't "their" D&D.
A PC game can't really recreate a good PnP group. But by the same measure, a tabletop group can't handle the infinitely more complex math at work in a PC game. To make things work in an environment such as this, compromises need to be made, and other areas can be improved upon.
So, to me, this is more a case of your playstyle not meshing with the "DMs style". It's not bad, it's not wrong. It just *is*. Much like there are people who prefer "this" D&D over the other licensed MMO. Very different playstyles and character building options. Neither is wrong - just different ways to get to the same goal - which is to have fun.
This guy is smart.
He is especially smart because of Boo, his hamster!
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
The only real D&D is straight-up Basic rules, where "Elf" was not a race, but a class.
THIS
I really wish I still had my old copy of the red box....
And yes, Boo is trained to go for the eyes. Other sensitive areas, too - but he'll only hit below the belt if he's been drinking. He gets surly after a couple...
And no, that's not mine...I'm totally not worthy.
Edit: beat me to it.
They could introduce things like skill checks which gives certain classes advantages over others, for example make traps costlier (lets be honest the traps are lame), if tripping a trap caused instant death and say multiple injuries at once then a class like the rogue would be more appreciated. If they made things like poison damage more severe and a cleric was good at countering that then they would have certain advantages over others. Also, if they could introduce enemy units that had advantages over some classes and weaknesses over others (for example some could have magical resistance/immunity and others physical resistance/immunity), that would end the 5 cw or sw Castle Never kind of runs and also help end the 1st class vs 2nd class character classes (unless you like seeing the "no hr/tr/dc/gf need apply" in lfg chat) .
This is a really nice idea,i know this game is made in a way that every class can just simply go on its own and you dont need anyone..not even a healer cause you can just stack other things to keep you alive. It kinda does kill the enjoyment.
Also i would like if normal questline (one if the most interesting things game is offering..and really short sadly) would be doable with a full party,with of course exp bigger and mobs/bosses harder (?),and if it would be much more boosted. I had friends who wanted to play with me trough it,but it just didnt work cause its doable only with 2 in party,3rd one doesnt get the quests done.
To be honest,while doing daily things on my 60 chars, i ask myself how good it would be to have something interesting to do after finishing campaign daily quests...what if there was max lvl 100...storyline much more extended than it is,much more slower lvling,where it actually matters when you finish a quest...not just,same thing,day over day..for some reward after a week.
But then again..there are too many ppl who are locked only to pvp and instant lvling,reaching endgame by all shortcuts possible.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
Quiet! Everybody! My d12 landed off the table. Re-roll or read it as is? I'm waiting for that mob of imps to finish rolling initiative...
Featured Foundry Quest: Whispers of an Ancient Evil [v3] - NW-DQ4WKW6ZG
Foundry Quest: Harper Chronicles: Blacklake - NW-DCPA4W2Q5
<meme removed per RoC>
I am a hero wannabe. :<
Every Dungeon Master can draw up their own dungeons and plots NOT listed in the "core lore" books.
Everyone can roll up a new character, and a new storyline for them.
Dungeons & Dragons itself was designed to be use as a basis of creation within a large structure of game rules. As long as the creativity keeps going it's Dungeons & Dragons. Praise ye Gary Gygax.
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
Also: prestige classes.
...
Tired of running dungeons with exploiters and cheaters? Join the legit channel by visiting http://goo.gl/1zfnTS to apply!
Performing ritual pony sacrifices to Tiamat to earn favor with the RNG Gods since 2014.
...
That is not what I was getting at.
I was saying changing our skills over and over and over... until they no longer even resemble D&D skills.