No. a GWF-players do not have the same amount of knowledge and experience on other classes as the same as other player classes do not have the knowledge of the GWF-class. This is, basically, due a player must "stop playing a class to learn other one" during that "band time", your "previous main class" will suffer some changes and you will make some "rutines mistakes" (obvious). So, is really funny to see how many "non-GWF-players" are telling us, GWF-players, how to play our main class ("you just need to pop unstop, use FLS, IBS, Takedown and run away" [ROFL]) and how it should be (support damage to CW-class)... and, as i said: most of you (you included) seems like make the game being built around the CW-Class. What i want is a "game where ALL classes are equal and have an utility" which, right now, and even you can check it by yourself by going to P.E. during DD time, is not.
This is actually the most unbiased thing I have seen you say so far. "A person does not know class unless they have played one extensively". I have been playing GWF and CW since M2, and I know these classes very well. But the class I know inside out and every feat tree and power like the back of my hand is the class I have been playing since open beta - rogue. With sprint, my point was you need to use it to put pressure on a CW, because, when your in his face he can neither cc you or damage you without risking getting cced or damaged himself. As for the reference to PE that is about PVE, I actually DEFENDED the nerfs incoming to the CW class coming in in M4. Although, I did not agree with the specific nature and am not happy with how they turned out. The nerfs to CW in PVE basically reduced the maximum amount of damage that a CW could do, a good change. The buffs removed nearly all skill required to deal near maximum damage or CC everything, not happy with this. I also said that CWs could use a SLIGHT boost in pvp. "game where ALL classes are equal and have an utility" If anyone has the right to complain about THIS, it is DCs in PVP and TRs in PVE. For PVE I want to see every class be able to contribute in different ways and there should be NO reason that a double stack or triple stack comp should be more effective than a rainbow party. Whats really funny is that when you want challenging and fair PVE gameplay, and you defend CW nerfs, you are not a "CW player". When you want a fair and challenging experience in PVP, and support GWF nerfs, you are not a "GWF player".
"Perma CC"which, is totally wrong. (I think) someone here said that "CW-class in PvP with a PvE set is as good as a PvP set" i said "my GWF MELTS", which is REALLY and TOTALLY DIFFERENT. With this "non prepared" GWF, if i usually do a good PvP match, even killing players that outgears me... but this is not due "i am a pro", but "due they are newbies" (being gentle)... and here is the main problem, even newbies (being gentle again) with a CW causes a lot of troubles to ANYONE, thing that did not happened with GWF and HR classes on the previous mod. To explain to you this, i will use your own example with the DC and the CW from M6: If the DC-class is as OP and can kill ANY OTHER CLASS on either PvP or PvE sets, then, THAT CLASS IS BROKEN TOO, even if CW-class counters it due SS and Shard (That a class [DC using your example] is countered by another one [CW] does not mean that that first class [DC] is not OP), and THIS is this case... and worse yet, now i am reading CW-players that suggest that CW-class could not even kill DC-class... curious thing, are the same players claiming that the CW-class here is "balanced"... so, something must be not right due this all information around us but, again, if you do not understand "all that information", our "debate" is useless but i will tel you a thing: i enjoy "debating" against you... is a real pleasure even when you ignore some of my data.
No I am not claiming the CW class is balanced, I am pointing out that your perspective is biased. If you were playing a class that did not have the HIGHEST CC immunity in the game you likely would have realized by now that a good Oppressor CW can perma lock someone until death, as in 0 chance to escape when caught. Instead you are complaining about spike damage and mostly from ONE specific passive power. I'll add that CW spike damage does not come from just storm spell, it comes from storm spell, in conjunction with eye of the storm, in conjunction with assailant. Even without storm spell, a CW can put out massive amounts of spike damage with JUST EOTS. If CW ONLY had spike damage, without CC, no one decent would find them to be much of a problem. Because, CW has the lowest mobility of the classes besides GF and DC. And the weakest defense of the classes except for TR. Can a CW be built to be tough? Yes, they can be, but no more so than any other class, except perhaps for rogue, but they have stealth.
I view CW as no more OP than GWF and HR were in M3. In fact, I view them as less OP when it comes to winning dominion matches. Because winning a dominion match is about node contesting, this is also by the way the only reason TR could be considered balanced or even OP - node contesting. A M4 CW can catch and kill someone far better than a M3 GWF could, but they can be caught and killed far easier than a M3 GWF could. It's really funny to hear people mention gear. In M3 for a GWF at the 10k GS level or at the 18k level, the chain prone combo and the 1 button press of unstoppable were the same, but gear made all the difference. I would ask of you this question - do you consider yourself "pro" because of the gear you have or because of your precision, anticipation, and timing in both offense and defense? If it is the latter then you should be having no problems with a equally geared CW. Meanwhile, CW and TR were often classified by both gear and the ability to use certain powers - shard and flurry. In M3 a 18k GWF using roar was a huge problem and no amount of skill could equalize that, you basically just had to be as well geared or better geared than the GWF in question and even then it was like fighting a raid boss to bring him down. In M4 gear will not save you but using skill and good team tactics CWs are far easier to deal with. I have had plenty of matches where there were CWs on the other team and none on mine and we CRUSHED them. This is to a large degree because I can counter 2 bad cws or one good one on my TR and if my GWF were as well geared as my TR it would be the same thing, as long as the rest of the members of the teams are reasonably balanced and my team supported me. In M4 everyone is dying a lot more than they used to, which is NOT just because of CWS, and everyone is still reeling from all the changes. Gear is not the be all end all that it once was, and skill and team tactics are more important than ever, and I like this change. One class is still OP and takes little skill to play, and honestly I was hoping for better. M1 rogues were considered to be the OP class and GWF was considered to be one of the weakest, and CWs were quite strong. M2, M3 TRs were nerfed into node-contesters, GWF became the OP class, and CWs were pretty much the weakest, with only GF a contender in that regard. M4 TRs are exactly the same, CW is now the OP class, and GWF is considered to be quite weak, with DC being probably the weakest. I have been on all sides of this parade, and honestly I'm not holding my breath for M5. I was half convinced that class balance would be improved in M4 and now I'm solidly convinced that either the devs cannot do this or will not do this. M5 TR is either going to get something like whisperknife or become brokenly, skillessly OP. You can bet that if that happens I'll be playing GWF in M5, cuase I like challenge and skill in pvp.
Through all the mods TR and GWF have always been good counters to CW, due to cc immunity and gap closing capability. CW has always been a good counter to DC and GF due to cc and ranged damage. In mod 1 GFs were good counters to to TR and GWF, in M4 this is also true. When you say "Cw players claim they couldn't even kill DCs" It doesn't mean anything, nor does it mean that CW was not weak in M3. Because when you pit a class with high CC vs a class that has active defenses and only two dodges as CC immunity the predictable is going to occur. That does not change the fact that every other class except for GF was stomping them in PVP unless they were very good. Up to M4 DC was always very good at making their team harder to kill. What has never happened is them being rewarded for that. As in dominion score and pvp campaign progress. Furthermore, a DC has never been able to all but win a domination match by himself. He can't hold a node and clear it at the same time, and that is what you need to be able to do to all but win. I want class balance in PVE and PVP, both for my main, and my alts, and everyone else. I also want class balance in skill, and I want a pvp match up system that favors those with gear and those without. My problem with YOU is that your comments are often short sighted, biased, and hypocritical.
The CW is balanced overall damage-wise. Two problems that appear:
- Good performance is possible with low skill. An average class X has no chance against an average CW as long as that CW is Thaumaturge.
- Great performance is impossible with high skill. The skill cap on CWs is too low. A good HR will destroy a CW in less than 5 seconds (equally geared and skilled) as long as he has the current PvP build (Combat, Lifedrinker, etc.). And there is nothing a CW could do about it. If the HR knows what he's doing, the CW won't be able to cast a single spell and drop in seconds. As far as I have tested it, there is no counter to that.
- Unkillable GWFs return. I've been meeting some on my CW recently that I couldn't kill for 15 min. And I'm a hard hitter. Sentinel ftw. Not complaining. I like it.
- TRs need buffs. But the situation is the same as with HRs. TRs can kill equally geared and skilled CWs, but only at a high skill level. An average TR has no chance against an average Thaumaturge CW.
My conclusion after PvPing for the whole day yesterday: Move the damage from passives to single target encounters. Move that occasional 10k Storm Spell crit to Chill Strike, or Entangling, or Repel, or Shard, or Ray of Enfeeblement. Anything that takes skill to land and is dodgeable. Make it sure damage, not a chance to deal damage. Landing encounters on your targets should kill them. Holding an At-Will should not.
I don't see a thing being totally wrong as long as it is reasonable. CW is designed to hold enemies as long as possible. If it couldn't do that, this class would be pointless then. After all, you can always try to stack tenacity, which helps you resist cc. However, perma-stealth is totally wrong because D&D rogues are not designed to be in stealth after they start attacking.
If you do not see my point here, our "discussion" is useless, because this is the same argument used to nerf the GWF-class (perma prone chain and bugged feat)...
To be honest, I thought Frontline Surge, Takedown, and even IBS should leave targets prone. There would be no need to nerf the effect of an ability if it naturally does that. What being ridiculous is that these melee classes also have lots of overpowered abilities which D&D melees should not have. To name a few: 30 feet range "melee attacks", cc immunity, supernatural abilities like Avalanche of Steel, Terrifying Impact, and lightning-fast Lunging Strike, etc. I could have accepted the aforementioned powers prone targets in pvp as long as melee classes didn't have so many overpowered abilities.
- Unkillable GWFs return. I've been meeting some on my CW recently that I couldn't kill for 15 min. And I'm a hard hitter. Sentinel ftw. Not complaining. I like it.
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know what they build, at least enchants/gear ? warlock takes so much time/ad that i dont have resources to test. tried this running thing and it isnt for me
I don't see a thing being totally wrong as long as it is reasonable.
It isn't reasonable. There are GFs out there with Profound/Corrupted/Purified gear and 40 - 50k HP that are being perma-CC'd to death by CWs and it isn't even a difficult rotation. It is so easy. There are PVE CWs destroying PVP builds.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
Anything that takes skill to land and is dodgeable.[/COLOR]
you do realize that this game has auto-aim right? "skill to land" does not exist for ranged encounters, that means 4 out of 5 that you mentioned (shard has a different mechanic)
Aset Xharran, Oppressor CW
0
jeffro9000Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 121Bounty Hunter
edited August 2014
Just to put my feedback into perspective, I have played since launch, I have a 60 of every class, 2 60's of some. I got dominion champion in mod 3 with the cw.
The recent buffs to cw's are too much. Storm spell is too much, in pvp and pve. Orb of imposition is too much in pvp. The skill required to pvp on a cw has been removed. Many other cw players have said this as well.
Gw's needed a nerf, but the pendulum swung too far for them as well.
My changes would be:
1) return storm spell to its previous state (mod 3 and prior)
2) bring back shard damage, especially on tab. High risk, but high reward.
3) give conduit its damage back (currently almost useless in pvp due to cast time and lack of damage. It can be good against a rogue though)
3) remove all of the "ignores damage resistance" stuff from the game for all classes
4) allow gf's to block ray of frost/icy rays
5) give gw's takedown prone back, but turn down its damage. This would be great as a utility skill rather than a dps skill.
On a final note, on the off chance a dev actually reads any of this... Make small changes to the classes when balancing rather than wildly jackknifing from one extreme to the other in every mod. One of my guildies (a chemist) said it best. Make little changes, make little mistakes, make big changes, make big mistakes.
my 2 cents.
edit:
6) move the buff to orb of imposition to a feat deep in the oppressor tree
My conclusion after PvPing for the whole day yesterday: Move the damage from passives to single target encounters. Move that occasional 10k Storm Spell crit to Chill Strike, or Entangling, or Repel, or Shard, or Ray of Enfeeblement. Anything that takes skill to land and is dodgeable. Make it sure damage, not a chance to deal damage. Landing encounters on your targets should kill them. Holding an At-Will should not.
Requoting this as it is my own opinion as well, and it is something all PvP CWs voices NUMEROUS (NUMEROUS...) times during the beta testing period for M4.
Sorry if i am repeating myself a lot. this being said, i will answer you with a question. How come that, in a PvP situation, is a 2 v CW (mod 4) seems fair and legit yet in a 2 vs GWF (mod 3) is not fair and legit? Can you explain this to me?
CW damage and control are high, but the difference is Mod 3 GWF were ridiculously powerful, able to withstand massive beatings and heal while cc immune and survive 2-3 v 1 and run on to another fight.
Mod 4 CW's Die! The big difference is CWs can and do die...........
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Requoting this as it is my own opinion as well, and it is something all PvP CWs voices NUMEROUS (NUMEROUS...) times during the beta testing period for M4.
Why should any dev read any of this when it's all just PVP whining? No really, you all seem to forget that the whole point and motivation for this game is a PVE experience based on D&D lore. You may not care about PVE or D&D at all, but the devs hopefully do, and their bosses definitely do, so why should you expect anyone to listen to you based on feedback on one narrow aspect of the game which isn't even the game's main focus in the first place?
Edit: Oh I know I know, "you're a paying customer". Well I am too, and so are a lot of other people who couldn't care less about PVP. I would expect devs to listen to comments that includes thoughtful feedback about the class as a whole as it is enjoyed in both PVP and PVE, not just on your own little world.
The fact that all of you are STILL fixated on unnerfing Shard, when Crush stated very clearly and unambiguously it was not going to be unnerfed because it was OP in PVE in mod3 (and let's face it, it was) just illustrates that you are not offering any feedback worth considering. If it doesn't consider the entire aspect of the game, it might as well be meaningless.
OP broken or not , u will still get controled to death by any cw even if we come back to module 3 ,
since you are a poor wisperknife with only 26k hp who count on a daily to escape control lol !
This is the big problem in this game , weak players duel against players that outgear them then come here to cry !
Agreed, and the crying wont stop until they remove PVP from the PVE environment that thrives off of what PVP hate most.
Requoting this as it is my own opinion as well, and it is something all PvP CWs voices NUMEROUS (NUMEROUS...) times during the beta testing period for M4.
There's no way they're going to buff a skill 10k. Well, maybe. That's basically what they did with mod3 IBS when they nerfed deep gash.
But people aren't asking for Shard to be unnerfed for PvE purposes, only in PvP. They could easily do that without making it overwhelming in PvE again in any number of ways: Apply a damage buff while on tab only (which would make it a much less useful buff for PvE), increase the damage but divide it among the targets hit (so it's more useful against a single target in PvP but less so against mob hordes in PvE) or even just put a damage buff against players only (the reverse of abilities that inflict less damage or cc against players), or combine some of those. They have the ability to do these things without affecting PvE much at all.
On the other hand, they pretty much failed with their PvE nerfs when they super-buffed Storm Spell and Eye of the Storm for some inexplicable reason. So they ended up HAMSTER up some very fun PvP stuff for no real balancing benefit in PvE content.
If Shard were buffed in Spell Mastery, then that is what all of the PVE CW's would gravitate towards using instead. And that would defeat the entire purpose of toning down an OP Shard.
And why are all of you still stuck on using Shard in the first place? Why should this one Shard Spell Mastery trick be the apotheosis of the CW's PVP experience? Why should Shard occupy such a privileged place that you are demanding PVP-specific buffs just for it and it alone? (I don't see anyone demanding PVP buffs for Entangle or Icy Rays for instance.) And why should the devs put so much effort in reworking Shard just to accommodate this one single mode of gameplay for PVPers?
1) return storm spell to its previous state (mod 3 and prior)
2) bring back shard damage, especially on tab. High risk, but high reward.
3) give conduit its damage back (currently almost useless in pvp due to cast time and lack of damage. It can be good against a rogue though)
3) remove all of the "ignores damage resistance" stuff from the game for all classes
4) allow gf's to block ray of frost/icy rays
5) give gw's takedown prone back, but turn down its damage. This would be great as a utility skill rather than a dps skill.
6) move the buff to orb of imposition to a feat deep in the oppressor tree
So, basically - remove the majority of what they did in Mod 4?
If Shard were buffed in Spell Mastery, then that is what all of the PVE CW's would gravitate towards using instead. And that would defeat the entire purpose of toning down an OP Shard.
And why are all of you still stuck on using Shard in the first place? Why should this one Shard Spell Mastery trick be the apotheosis of the CW's PVP experience? Why should Shard occupy such a privileged place that you are demanding PVP-specific buffs just for it and it alone? (I don't see anyone demanding PVP buffs for Entangle or Icy Rays for instance.) And why should the devs put so much effort in reworking Shard just to accommodate this one single mode of gameplay for PVPers?
Because landing a Shard is seen as skilled play. Neatly ignoring the fact that with the improved control CWs have in Mod 4 pretty much anyone could land Shard if they wanted to.
Because landing a Shard is seen as skilled play. Neatly ignoring the fact that with the improved control CWs have in Mod 4 pretty much anyone could land Shard if they wanted to.
There are lots of instances of skilled play - dodging correctly, timing your opponents' encounter cooldowns, anticipating their next move. Aren't those skills as well? Even designing a build is an example of a skill. But you are basically saying, by fixating on Shard, that all of those other skills don't matter nearly as much as this one single Shard trick, and I don't buy it. Demanding that all PVP CW's have to do this Shard trick in order to be considered "skilled" is unduly limiting and, in the long run, harmful to CW's as they get stuck in this one narrow mode of play while everyone else gets to creatively diversify and adapt their game play.
And let me be clear, I'm not advocating this from any personal point of view either. Even if CW's are currently considered "OP", I don't PVP with my CW at all, I absolutely refuse to, because I loathe PVP that much. So I am not asking for "easy mode PVP" for myself. I want to have a CW that performs well in PVE without being burdened and saddled by stupid PVP whining.
And why are all of you still stuck on using Shard in the first place? Why should this one Shard Spell Mastery trick be the apotheosis of the CW's PVP experience? Why should Shard occupy such a privileged place that you are demanding PVP-specific buffs just for it and it alone? (I don't see anyone demanding PVP buffs for Entangle or Icy Rays for instance.) And why should the devs put so much effort in reworking Shard just to accommodate this one single mode of gameplay for PVPers?
Reworking shard is only a matter of increasing base damage for mastery. This takes about 1hr of coding and testing
Why shard and not others?
Entangle is fine now. Icy Rays is more than fine.
Shard is not. It hits for 2K crits on players, and the prone duration buff is not working IMO.
And yes, it takes skill to land and buffing it while nerfing autoprocs would make the difference between good and bad CWs.
PS: just as a note I didn't pay anything here and don't intend to, I came for PvE (Neverwinter Nights/Baldur's Gate etc. fan), and I did PvE for months, but it is horribad and stale. I came to hate it and still do. Can you honestly blame me for that?
Reworking shard is only a matter of increasing base damage for mastery. This takes about 1hr of coding and testing
Buffing Shard in Spell Mastery would mean all the PVE CW's would use it there too, which would defeat the purpose of nerfing Shard's mod3 OPness (and let's be honest, it was OP).
Shard is not. It hits for 2K crits on players, and the prone duration buff is not working IMO.
And yes, it takes skill to land and buffing it while nerfing autoprocs would make the difference between good and bad CWs.
Why are you only considering the skill involved in landing Shard? Doesn't it also take skill to use Entangle at the right moment, to dodge correctly, to anticipate opponents' moves, etc.? I don't question that it requires skill to use Shard. I question why you only consider that to be "skilled play" and nothing else.
PS: just as a note I didn't pay anything here and don't intend to, I came for PvE (Neverwinter Nights/Baldur's Gate etc. fan), and I did PvE for months, but it is horribad and stale. I came to hate it and still do. Can you honestly blame me for that?
Yeah I can, actually. It's a PVE-centered game. If you hate the PVE, you should leave. It's like going to a seafood restaurant when you don't like fish.
Buffing Shard in Spell Mastery would mean all the PVE CW's would use it there too, which would defeat the purpose of nerfing Shard's mod3 OPness (and let's be honest, it was OP).
Why are you only considering the skill involved in landing Shard? Doesn't it also take skill to use Entangle at the right moment, to dodge correctly, to anticipate opponents' moves, etc.? I don't question that it requires skill to use Shard. I question why you only consider that to be "skilled play" and nothing else.
Yeah I can, actually. It's a PVE-centered game. If you hate the PVE, you should leave. It's like going to a seafood restaurant when you don't like fish.
- case one, they can buff shard for PvP only. Simple. Case 2, they could buff shard, and nerf SS and Assailant. Damage remains same, yet you NEED to land shard to achieve result.
- Shard, together with TR's Duelist's Flurry are the most difficult skills to land on good PvPers. Landing Shard requires a perfectly executed Icy Rays>Entangle>Shardslam>filler RoF/MM/Chill Strike/RoE/Shardplosion. There's no comparison between this chain combo and a simple Entangle
- about PvE, I tried hard, and I did my part lol. Where are my RAIDS? Where is my EPIC CONTENT? Where are the EPIC BOSSES? Where are the EPIC STORYLINES? Where are the amazing fights, and amazing boss mechanics? Where are the bosses that last 30 mins to beat?
Where is the BOSS where you wipe for a month, while geared, as you learn the encounter?
I tried hard to like this PvE. Compared to the other MMO I played, it is a joke.
PvP however is nicely designed and even though imbalanced, very promising. Best combat in an MMO so far.
Game is also free.
Why would you want to drive me away? I don't want nerfs to affect PvE. I want CW to stay strong. I just want that CW takes some skill to achieve strong in PvP that is all.
If Shard were buffed in Spell Mastery, then that is what all of the PVE CW's would gravitate towards using instead. And that would defeat the entire purpose of toning down an OP Shard.
And why are all of you still stuck on using Shard in the first place? Why should this one Shard Spell Mastery trick be the apotheosis of the CW's PVP experience? Why should Shard occupy such a privileged place that you are demanding PVP-specific buffs just for it and it alone? (I don't see anyone demanding PVP buffs for Entangle or Icy Rays for instance.) And why should the devs put so much effort in reworking Shard just to accommodate this one single mode of gameplay for PVPers?
because shard prone , and prones are effective in pvp !
for the record: the shard was very powerful for some feets were providing 2 / 3x more damage bonus. apparently the dev only realized this AFTER the series of nerfs (and not reversed).
for pve, you just need adjusted these feets and the cw would naturally lost aoe damage (the real problem of the shard. my bad cw, solo, hit by 53k aoe... is insane).
and well ... Administer shard is fun. op or not, the gameplay needs to be preserved.
Comments
This is actually the most unbiased thing I have seen you say so far. "A person does not know class unless they have played one extensively". I have been playing GWF and CW since M2, and I know these classes very well. But the class I know inside out and every feat tree and power like the back of my hand is the class I have been playing since open beta - rogue. With sprint, my point was you need to use it to put pressure on a CW, because, when your in his face he can neither cc you or damage you without risking getting cced or damaged himself. As for the reference to PE that is about PVE, I actually DEFENDED the nerfs incoming to the CW class coming in in M4. Although, I did not agree with the specific nature and am not happy with how they turned out. The nerfs to CW in PVE basically reduced the maximum amount of damage that a CW could do, a good change. The buffs removed nearly all skill required to deal near maximum damage or CC everything, not happy with this. I also said that CWs could use a SLIGHT boost in pvp. "game where ALL classes are equal and have an utility" If anyone has the right to complain about THIS, it is DCs in PVP and TRs in PVE. For PVE I want to see every class be able to contribute in different ways and there should be NO reason that a double stack or triple stack comp should be more effective than a rainbow party. Whats really funny is that when you want challenging and fair PVE gameplay, and you defend CW nerfs, you are not a "CW player". When you want a fair and challenging experience in PVP, and support GWF nerfs, you are not a "GWF player".
No I am not claiming the CW class is balanced, I am pointing out that your perspective is biased. If you were playing a class that did not have the HIGHEST CC immunity in the game you likely would have realized by now that a good Oppressor CW can perma lock someone until death, as in 0 chance to escape when caught. Instead you are complaining about spike damage and mostly from ONE specific passive power. I'll add that CW spike damage does not come from just storm spell, it comes from storm spell, in conjunction with eye of the storm, in conjunction with assailant. Even without storm spell, a CW can put out massive amounts of spike damage with JUST EOTS. If CW ONLY had spike damage, without CC, no one decent would find them to be much of a problem. Because, CW has the lowest mobility of the classes besides GF and DC. And the weakest defense of the classes except for TR. Can a CW be built to be tough? Yes, they can be, but no more so than any other class, except perhaps for rogue, but they have stealth.
I view CW as no more OP than GWF and HR were in M3. In fact, I view them as less OP when it comes to winning dominion matches. Because winning a dominion match is about node contesting, this is also by the way the only reason TR could be considered balanced or even OP - node contesting. A M4 CW can catch and kill someone far better than a M3 GWF could, but they can be caught and killed far easier than a M3 GWF could. It's really funny to hear people mention gear. In M3 for a GWF at the 10k GS level or at the 18k level, the chain prone combo and the 1 button press of unstoppable were the same, but gear made all the difference. I would ask of you this question - do you consider yourself "pro" because of the gear you have or because of your precision, anticipation, and timing in both offense and defense? If it is the latter then you should be having no problems with a equally geared CW. Meanwhile, CW and TR were often classified by both gear and the ability to use certain powers - shard and flurry. In M3 a 18k GWF using roar was a huge problem and no amount of skill could equalize that, you basically just had to be as well geared or better geared than the GWF in question and even then it was like fighting a raid boss to bring him down. In M4 gear will not save you but using skill and good team tactics CWs are far easier to deal with. I have had plenty of matches where there were CWs on the other team and none on mine and we CRUSHED them. This is to a large degree because I can counter 2 bad cws or one good one on my TR and if my GWF were as well geared as my TR it would be the same thing, as long as the rest of the members of the teams are reasonably balanced and my team supported me. In M4 everyone is dying a lot more than they used to, which is NOT just because of CWS, and everyone is still reeling from all the changes. Gear is not the be all end all that it once was, and skill and team tactics are more important than ever, and I like this change. One class is still OP and takes little skill to play, and honestly I was hoping for better. M1 rogues were considered to be the OP class and GWF was considered to be one of the weakest, and CWs were quite strong. M2, M3 TRs were nerfed into node-contesters, GWF became the OP class, and CWs were pretty much the weakest, with only GF a contender in that regard. M4 TRs are exactly the same, CW is now the OP class, and GWF is considered to be quite weak, with DC being probably the weakest. I have been on all sides of this parade, and honestly I'm not holding my breath for M5. I was half convinced that class balance would be improved in M4 and now I'm solidly convinced that either the devs cannot do this or will not do this. M5 TR is either going to get something like whisperknife or become brokenly, skillessly OP. You can bet that if that happens I'll be playing GWF in M5, cuase I like challenge and skill in pvp.
Through all the mods TR and GWF have always been good counters to CW, due to cc immunity and gap closing capability. CW has always been a good counter to DC and GF due to cc and ranged damage. In mod 1 GFs were good counters to to TR and GWF, in M4 this is also true. When you say "Cw players claim they couldn't even kill DCs" It doesn't mean anything, nor does it mean that CW was not weak in M3. Because when you pit a class with high CC vs a class that has active defenses and only two dodges as CC immunity the predictable is going to occur. That does not change the fact that every other class except for GF was stomping them in PVP unless they were very good. Up to M4 DC was always very good at making their team harder to kill. What has never happened is them being rewarded for that. As in dominion score and pvp campaign progress. Furthermore, a DC has never been able to all but win a domination match by himself. He can't hold a node and clear it at the same time, and that is what you need to be able to do to all but win. I want class balance in PVE and PVP, both for my main, and my alts, and everyone else. I also want class balance in skill, and I want a pvp match up system that favors those with gear and those without. My problem with YOU is that your comments are often short sighted, biased, and hypocritical.
- Good performance is possible with low skill. An average class X has no chance against an average CW as long as that CW is Thaumaturge.
- Great performance is impossible with high skill. The skill cap on CWs is too low. A good HR will destroy a CW in less than 5 seconds (equally geared and skilled) as long as he has the current PvP build (Combat, Lifedrinker, etc.). And there is nothing a CW could do about it. If the HR knows what he's doing, the CW won't be able to cast a single spell and drop in seconds. As far as I have tested it, there is no counter to that.
- Unkillable GWFs return. I've been meeting some on my CW recently that I couldn't kill for 15 min. And I'm a hard hitter. Sentinel ftw. Not complaining. I like it.
- TRs need buffs. But the situation is the same as with HRs. TRs can kill equally geared and skilled CWs, but only at a high skill level. An average TR has no chance against an average Thaumaturge CW.
My conclusion after PvPing for the whole day yesterday: Move the damage from passives to single target encounters. Move that occasional 10k Storm Spell crit to Chill Strike, or Entangling, or Repel, or Shard, or Ray of Enfeeblement. Anything that takes skill to land and is dodgeable. Make it sure damage, not a chance to deal damage. Landing encounters on your targets should kill them. Holding an At-Will should not.
To be honest, I thought Frontline Surge, Takedown, and even IBS should leave targets prone. There would be no need to nerf the effect of an ability if it naturally does that. What being ridiculous is that these melee classes also have lots of overpowered abilities which D&D melees should not have. To name a few: 30 feet range "melee attacks", cc immunity, supernatural abilities like Avalanche of Steel, Terrifying Impact, and lightning-fast Lunging Strike, etc. I could have accepted the aforementioned powers prone targets in pvp as long as melee classes didn't have so many overpowered abilities.
Sure they are, my lizard eats them raw
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
know what they build, at least enchants/gear ? warlock takes so much time/ad that i dont have resources to test. tried this running thing and it isnt for me
It isn't reasonable. There are GFs out there with Profound/Corrupted/Purified gear and 40 - 50k HP that are being perma-CC'd to death by CWs and it isn't even a difficult rotation. It is so easy. There are PVE CWs destroying PVP builds.
What an idiot....
That's the problem....
you do realize that this game has auto-aim right? "skill to land" does not exist for ranged encounters, that means 4 out of 5 that you mentioned (shard has a different mechanic)
The recent buffs to cw's are too much. Storm spell is too much, in pvp and pve. Orb of imposition is too much in pvp. The skill required to pvp on a cw has been removed. Many other cw players have said this as well.
Gw's needed a nerf, but the pendulum swung too far for them as well.
My changes would be:
1) return storm spell to its previous state (mod 3 and prior)
2) bring back shard damage, especially on tab. High risk, but high reward.
3) give conduit its damage back (currently almost useless in pvp due to cast time and lack of damage. It can be good against a rogue though)
3) remove all of the "ignores damage resistance" stuff from the game for all classes
4) allow gf's to block ray of frost/icy rays
5) give gw's takedown prone back, but turn down its damage. This would be great as a utility skill rather than a dps skill.
On a final note, on the off chance a dev actually reads any of this... Make small changes to the classes when balancing rather than wildly jackknifing from one extreme to the other in every mod. One of my guildies (a chemist) said it best. Make little changes, make little mistakes, make big changes, make big mistakes.
my 2 cents.
edit:
6) move the buff to orb of imposition to a feat deep in the oppressor tree
Jeffrina Jones, GWF
Jeffrodo, CW
Jeffrogue, Rog
Jelfro, GF
Jeffrogolas Do'Urden, HR
Jeffrodo Jaggins, SW
Requoting this as it is my own opinion as well, and it is something all PvP CWs voices NUMEROUS (NUMEROUS...) times during the beta testing period for M4.
CW damage and control are high, but the difference is Mod 3 GWF were ridiculously powerful, able to withstand massive beatings and heal while cc immune and survive 2-3 v 1 and run on to another fight.
Mod 4 CW's Die! The big difference is CWs can and do die...........
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Why should any dev read any of this when it's all just PVP whining? No really, you all seem to forget that the whole point and motivation for this game is a PVE experience based on D&D lore. You may not care about PVE or D&D at all, but the devs hopefully do, and their bosses definitely do, so why should you expect anyone to listen to you based on feedback on one narrow aspect of the game which isn't even the game's main focus in the first place?
Edit: Oh I know I know, "you're a paying customer". Well I am too, and so are a lot of other people who couldn't care less about PVP. I would expect devs to listen to comments that includes thoughtful feedback about the class as a whole as it is enjoyed in both PVP and PVE, not just on your own little world.
The fact that all of you are STILL fixated on unnerfing Shard, when Crush stated very clearly and unambiguously it was not going to be unnerfed because it was OP in PVE in mod3 (and let's face it, it was) just illustrates that you are not offering any feedback worth considering. If it doesn't consider the entire aspect of the game, it might as well be meaningless.
Agreed, and the crying wont stop until they remove PVP from the PVE environment that thrives off of what PVP hate most.
Wow, umm, yes. Well done, I am sure that's a splendid sentiment, whatever it was intended to convey.
There's no way they're going to buff a skill 10k. Well, maybe. That's basically what they did with mod3 IBS when they nerfed deep gash.
If Shard were buffed in Spell Mastery, then that is what all of the PVE CW's would gravitate towards using instead. And that would defeat the entire purpose of toning down an OP Shard.
And why are all of you still stuck on using Shard in the first place? Why should this one Shard Spell Mastery trick be the apotheosis of the CW's PVP experience? Why should Shard occupy such a privileged place that you are demanding PVP-specific buffs just for it and it alone? (I don't see anyone demanding PVP buffs for Entangle or Icy Rays for instance.) And why should the devs put so much effort in reworking Shard just to accommodate this one single mode of gameplay for PVPers?
Not happening.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
There are lots of instances of skilled play - dodging correctly, timing your opponents' encounter cooldowns, anticipating their next move. Aren't those skills as well? Even designing a build is an example of a skill. But you are basically saying, by fixating on Shard, that all of those other skills don't matter nearly as much as this one single Shard trick, and I don't buy it. Demanding that all PVP CW's have to do this Shard trick in order to be considered "skilled" is unduly limiting and, in the long run, harmful to CW's as they get stuck in this one narrow mode of play while everyone else gets to creatively diversify and adapt their game play.
And let me be clear, I'm not advocating this from any personal point of view either. Even if CW's are currently considered "OP", I don't PVP with my CW at all, I absolutely refuse to, because I loathe PVP that much. So I am not asking for "easy mode PVP" for myself. I want to have a CW that performs well in PVE without being burdened and saddled by stupid PVP whining.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Reworking shard is only a matter of increasing base damage for mastery. This takes about 1hr of coding and testing
Why shard and not others?
Entangle is fine now. Icy Rays is more than fine.
Shard is not. It hits for 2K crits on players, and the prone duration buff is not working IMO.
And yes, it takes skill to land and buffing it while nerfing autoprocs would make the difference between good and bad CWs.
PS: just as a note I didn't pay anything here and don't intend to, I came for PvE (Neverwinter Nights/Baldur's Gate etc. fan), and I did PvE for months, but it is horribad and stale. I came to hate it and still do. Can you honestly blame me for that?
Buffing Shard in Spell Mastery would mean all the PVE CW's would use it there too, which would defeat the purpose of nerfing Shard's mod3 OPness (and let's be honest, it was OP).
Why are you only considering the skill involved in landing Shard? Doesn't it also take skill to use Entangle at the right moment, to dodge correctly, to anticipate opponents' moves, etc.? I don't question that it requires skill to use Shard. I question why you only consider that to be "skilled play" and nothing else.
Yeah I can, actually. It's a PVE-centered game. If you hate the PVE, you should leave. It's like going to a seafood restaurant when you don't like fish.
- case one, they can buff shard for PvP only. Simple. Case 2, they could buff shard, and nerf SS and Assailant. Damage remains same, yet you NEED to land shard to achieve result.
- Shard, together with TR's Duelist's Flurry are the most difficult skills to land on good PvPers. Landing Shard requires a perfectly executed Icy Rays>Entangle>Shardslam>filler RoF/MM/Chill Strike/RoE/Shardplosion. There's no comparison between this chain combo and a simple Entangle
- about PvE, I tried hard, and I did my part lol. Where are my RAIDS? Where is my EPIC CONTENT? Where are the EPIC BOSSES? Where are the EPIC STORYLINES? Where are the amazing fights, and amazing boss mechanics? Where are the bosses that last 30 mins to beat?
Where is the BOSS where you wipe for a month, while geared, as you learn the encounter?
I tried hard to like this PvE. Compared to the other MMO I played, it is a joke.
PvP however is nicely designed and even though imbalanced, very promising. Best combat in an MMO so far.
Game is also free.
Why would you want to drive me away? I don't want nerfs to affect PvE. I want CW to stay strong. I just want that CW takes some skill to achieve strong in PvP that is all.
because shard prone , and prones are effective in pvp !
for pve, you just need adjusted these feets and the cw would naturally lost aoe damage (the real problem of the shard. my bad cw, solo, hit by 53k aoe... is insane).
and well ... Administer shard is fun. op or not, the gameplay needs to be preserved.