An adventurer flinging fireballs, "A-OK", put a musket in their hands.. "You're under arrest!" Rationalizations for the lack of technology in fantasy worlds leads to more weird contradictions than not. Thanks for the lore lesson though.
The best reason in any fantasy world that I've seen comes from Brandon Sanderson's Mystborn trilogy. (yes I know he wrote a fourth book, but it was originally a trilogy) In that world the evil god emperor brutally suppressed technology advances like guns and gunpowder because it gave too much power to the common soldiers rather than the elite and could be easily used by the slave caste for an uprising.
If I had to write it, guns wouldn't be found in FR from Wizard guilds conducting the same kind of campaign in secret.
0
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
Yeah, but are they going to be arrested for just having a "wand of fireballs"? Or scrolls, etc? Magic is ridiculously more dangerous than basic gunpowder, but seems relatively unregulated.
. . . Nay, Smoke Powder is much more unstable and volatile than Magic. Magic can be controlled. Once unleashed, Smoke Powder does what it does, explode without regards to the laws of magic. Considering Smoke Powder is inherently magical in itself, using during times such as the Time of the Troubles (Wild Magic) and the Spellplage (Spellsurges) would have wrought (and did) extreme devastation, a-kin to an army of mages but dealt by few.
. . . Nay, Smoke Powder is much more unstable and volatile than Magic. Magic can be controlled. Once unleashed, Smoke Powder does what it does, explode without regards to the laws of magic. Considering Smoke Powder is inherently magical in itself, using during times such as the Time of the Troubles and the Spellplage would have wrought (and did) extreme devastation, a-kin to an army of mages but dealt by few.
Interesting. Thanks for the extended explanations.
The best reason in any fantasy world that I've seen comes from Brandon Sanderson's Mystborn trilogy. (yes I know he wrote a fourth book, but it was originally a trilogy) In that world the evil god emperor brutally suppressed technology advances like guns and gunpowder because it gave too much power to the common soldiers rather than the elite and could be easily used by the slave caste for an uprising.
Yeah, that's similar to what I was thinking of how it would play out. Magic is limited by difficulty or availability, guns are relatively easy to use. Mages (and the aristocracy) put limits on gun ownership to preserve their power.
I do recall one D&D module called "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks" that had rayguns and blasters as it involved a downed spaceship.
I don't think it was in Faerun however.
Edit: Definitely not Fearun ... 't was World of Greyhawk.
I remember playing the 1st edition game in that adventure was cool was the first time I encountered mind flayers as an alien race. gygax was being very mean that day he put that gem out, lazer guns, robots, alien plant life radiation, space armor 90% of every thing in the ship wanted to kill you fun times.
There are many reasons why gun powder would not work and has not caught on here in the realms as was stated one because. 1) its a magic substance that is highly unstable, easier to do magic. 2) Why do something that's hard when its easier to go the magic rout, and far more effective. 3) If you look at the real world the industrial age happened because society advanced out of necessity, the war helped a lot to do this all of them. Now if we had magic it would have replaced most every thing technological wise, you off course would have your hold outs who would have been looked upon as crack pots or some thing. It would be viewed as magic in the real world is to day, think about it do you go to a doctor or a faith healer and how are those who do are viewed.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
I could form a party and go on an Expedition for the Ancient Tomes to find it (my old sourcebooks are a bit buried) but I know one of the old DM guides has a little space in it for converting characters from one TSR system into D&D.. I remember because we had a really weird mini-campaign of "Boot Hill" where our old west gunfighters went too deep into a cavern system (I think a floor collapsed below us) and we were drawing six-shooters on mobs of goblins.
As for Neverwinter, no. If I want to play a game with dwarves and guns, I load Drakensang and play my Steam Mechanicus for a while.
The first edition of the DMG had rules for converting Boot Hill and Gamma World characters to AD&D. The mechanics of Gamma World were actually very similar to D&D but the tech weapons did grossly more damage. Sword would be 1d8 damage. A blaster might be something like 6d6.
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Well there is no gun class in 4e. There are not really any guns in 4e either. Unless you count the laser guns they made as an April fools joke a few years back.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited July 2014
EDIT: Nevermind. The most salient point is, no, you will not see guns in Neverwinter, as they're not part of the D&D world of Faerun.
I wouldn't mind seeing an "Arquebus of Gond" artifact or something similar.
As long as it had a long cooldown and high chance of blowing up in your face...something like that could be fun.
But a class with guns as main weaponry?
Totally against.
0
imaginaerum1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 378Arc User
...
The discovery of gunpowder and the gun could be interesting as a concept in a fantasy novel, as it would disrupt government and the social order as wizards could be countered from range and their damage could equaled by cannons, but it would make for bad gameplay unless them reduced the guns effect in which case it's not a gun but a reskinned bolt.
See the "Guardians of the Flame" series by Joel Rosenberg for a good - and particularly appropriate - example.
0
doriangreighMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 707Arc User
D&D used to have arquebuses, but they cycled out in 3e I believe. Highly volitile, gnomish inventions (in D&D at least) that had a % chance to blow up in your face. I can see the complaints already if they brought them in again. If you want a gun play WoW.
NOt sure how many people have mentioned this, but indeed, Faerun's Gnomes provided various firearms from wheelock pistols to blunderbus to I think even cannons. I can't remember if they made it into 3rd edition and know very little about 4e and 5e but there is history where it was indeed in the realms, it was amusing as if you rolled a 1 you bascially blew up your pistol and shot yourself lol.
I am saying this because we are going to have 2 aparatus or mechanical mounts or companion
are they preparing us for this,because somebody is making those things and that somebody can for sure make guns
for me it would be awesome,gun wielding class
edit:when I say gun ,its not that type of modern guns its more like a old fashion blunderbuss
that most dwarven race use
something that shoot projectile,from stone to magical orbs that explode on contact
Maybe it will never see the sunlight
FR had those years ago developed by Lantanese gnomes, basic single shot arquebi and later pistols - their critical hits were quite amazing. Smoke Powder was also part of the Spelljammer setting.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
I wouldn't think it's very common for half or more of Neverwinter's residents to be good-aligned drows, but, alas...
0
myles08807Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 409Arc User
edited July 2014
In the 4.0 rulebook Cormyr can grant access to blasting powder but it is highly regulated and subject to confiscation by the War Wizards should any shenanigans ensue. Lantan, land of the bombards (cannon), was erased by both the Spellplague and rising ocean waters. One gets the feeling that the encroachment of technology in the Realms was stomped flat in the 4.0 rewrite.
I used to run into criticism running around the Enclave with my Apparatus of Kwalish along anti-technology lines. "That's a MACHINE! It should be ILLEGAL!!!" and that kind of thing. I guess those voices have gotten used to the occasional burst of blue sparkly steam...
They do have crude and volatile gunpowder and some cannons in Faerun but they consider it too dangerous to make reliable arms for infantry forces. Additionally magic tends to be more effective artillery than any cheap guns they might put together (which would undoubtedly be blowing hands off).
Why bother inventing guns and artillery when magic is so much more practical and relatively safe?
They do have crude and volatile gunpowder and some cannons in Faerun but they consider it too dangerous to make reliable arms for infantry forces. Additionally magic tends to be more effective artillery than any cheap guns they might put together (which would undoubtedly be blowing hands off).
Why bother inventing guns and artillery when magic is so much more practical and relatively safe?
I second that
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They do have crude and volatile gunpowder and some cannons in Faerun but they consider it too dangerous to make reliable arms for infantry forces. Additionally magic tends to be more effective artillery than any cheap guns they might put together (which would undoubtedly be blowing hands off).
Why bother inventing guns and artillery when magic is so much more practical and relatively safe?
(disclaimer: I do not want guns introduced into neverwinter, this is more a thought experiment)
Ok so you're Lord Neverember. You've got Thayans, Undead, Dragons, and Drow attacking you on a regular basis. Wizards, Warlocks, Sorcerors, etc work wonderfully as elite defenders to decimate battlefields. However to be effective each one needs years of practice and training to be an engine of destruction on the battlefield. Some classes less than others but the concept remains. So lets say an inventor or artificier dropped the plans for functional muskets and cannons into your lap. The start up cost would be high, however they all could be operated by commoners with ten weeks of training. (I believe this is how long US army basic training is, may be wrong) This means you now have troops that are much less training intensive and can be replaced rapidly rather than in a span of years. They cause less damage individually than a wizard, but far more damage than a foot soldier. You're regular forces can now shred the enemies regulars in rapid order, while your assassins (rogues) poison the enemy officers and wizards. Your casters can be held in reserve safely to backup your regulars or to take out any enemy casters that survived your rogues. It would be effective and brutal, if you were the only one using this tactic to start with you could conquer a large chunk of territory before anyone had a chance to respond and hold it almost indefinately. This brings the warfront farther away from your home city and keeps it's people safe.
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
See the "Guardians of the Flame" series by Joel Rosenberg for a good - and particularly appropriate - example.
I love this series. In fact I used to keep a Slovatsky Law in my signatures and these are the only soft cover books I have on my shelf...
However, the reason I didn't bring this up initially, although I do think of it every time somebody brings up guns in D&D, is mainly because it is not Forgotten Realms.
However let's expand a bit...
The reason guns were introduced to this world was because five people from our dimension were introduced to it and one of them happened to be an engineer who knew how to make gun powder and firearms. When they ended up stuck there it was the obvious way to make a name for themselves and carve a piece of the world for themselves.
Had Lou Riccetti not ended up there guns would not have advanced to the point they did in such a short time. He already knew how to make guns so the entire plug and play perfecting designs was already known to him. In a world where designs have yet to be perfected, magic still looks like the more appealing option.
And frankly although I did really enjoy the series...
If you look at the reviews you notice the "magic" of the books goes away as soon as the rest of the world figures out how to make guns. Unfortunately his incorporation in guns was likely the main cause of the downfall of the series and why after the first four books reviews and opinions go from being some of the most entrancing stories to 'I only keep reading because I want to see "Gilligan get off the island." '
ministerofchangeMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited July 2014
In all the campaigns I have run over the last 32 years (yes I have been playing that long) I have allowed certain players to have a form of Artifact Guns. The design is pretty simplistic, it looks like a flintlock and fires magic missiles, but you don't have to be a caster to use it. It does the same damage as the spell and increases in level the same way. Some times, depending on the player and the campaign world, I either have it follow the same auto hit rule, or make them roll to hit. I a sure there is some way they could adapt the idea for the game.
Also If I remember correct one of the AD&D versions, probably 2nd Edition, had a Blunderbuss in the weapon charts. Another might have actually had a flint lock in the chart IIRC.
You could also find a way, instead of guns, to make an endless quiver hand crossbow that would ultimately fill the same kind of function people want the guns for.
bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
edited July 2014
Other than bringing modern tech into the fray, what is the intent behind wanting a gun-wielding character? What if you had a clockwork crossbow that could rapid fire bolts? Would that make a difference to you? What if you carried around some small glass spheres that contained unstable chemicals in them, and fired them at enemies via a slingshot? What is it about guns that you are looking for?
I'm not necessarily against the idea of firearms in a fantasy game, I'm just curious as to what specific characteristics about them someone would want in a high fantasy setting...
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
Thanks always love finding an new author to check out.
(disclaimer: I do not want guns introduced into neverwinter, this is more a thought experiment)
Ok so you're Lord Neverember. You've got Thayans, Undead, Dragons, and Drow attacking you on a regular basis. Wizards, Warlocks, Sorcerors, etc work wonderfully as elite defenders to decimate battlefields. However to be effective each one needs years of practice and training to be an engine of destruction on the battlefield. Some classes less than others but the concept remains. So lets say an inventor or artificier dropped the plans for functional muskets and cannons into your lap. The start up cost would be high, however they all could be operated by commoners with ten weeks of training. (I believe this is how long US army basic training is, may be wrong) This means you now have troops that are much less training intensive and can be replaced rapidly rather than in a span of years. They cause less damage individually than a wizard, but far more damage than a foot soldier. You're regular forces can now shred the enemies regulars in rapid order, while your assassins (rogues) poison the enemy officers and wizards. Your casters can be held in reserve safely to backup your regulars or to take out any enemy casters that survived your rogues. It would be effective and brutal, if you were the only one using this tactic to start with you could conquer a large chunk of territory before anyone had a chance to respond and hold it almost indefinately. This brings the warfront farther away from your home city and keeps it's people safe.
As a DM, there is a major problem with this that I see and I see why countries, cities, and organizations do not use it.
. . . The problem with using Smoke Powder in such a way along the Sword Coast (a region steeped proud in its "Free States" since the first fall of Netheril) would cause war between neighboring City-States (like Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, Luskan, Silverymoon, Icewind Dale, Irieabor, etc.), Countries (like Calimshan, Netheril, Moonshae Isles, etc.), and probably even make enemies out of powerful Nations (like Cormyr, Comanthtyr, etc.) and organizations (like the Harpers, etc.) for examples. So, while it may help to win the fight against Thay, Dragons, and other threats - the cost would be too great; all out war against their allies.
. . . Lord Neverember, power-hungry as he may be and even though an antagonist in source material, isn't about to declare war on his "allies" just for the sake of highly rare, regulated, and outlawed Smoke Powder. He's working too hard to win over the People of his realms (Waterdeep & Neverwinter) to throw that all away and make himself and Neverwinter an enemy of Faerun.
. . . Think of Smoke Powder like a Nuclear Weapon in relation to our Real World. You get it, and you cause a diplomatic situation. You use it and you cause a World War between you and those whom were your allies and then all your enemies sneak in for the kill. Let's also not forget about the people themselves, who would riot and cause civil unrest. While the Spellplage happened over a hundred years ago, the destruction wrought upon by countries using massive amounts of unstable magic (Halruaa, Lantan, etc.) being wiped off the map is well known across Faerun. Such flagrant use of it would cause wide-spread panic -- especially within those races that live for hundreds of years.
. . . All the Smoke Powder in the Realms wouldn't hold against the forces of Calimshan, the War Wizards of Cormyr, or the High Mages of the Elven Courts and with your allies denouncing you for using a "weapon of mass destruction," Neverember would be all alone trying to protect a city in civil unrest with enemies at every gate -- even the sea. Neverwinter would be wiped off the map... if not by its own doing, then by those seeking to eradicate those using Smoke Powder as a weapon of war.
closest thing to a gun would be a crossbow, which dont really see a point, as they fundamentally work the same as a regular bow, just slower loading.
How about the crossbows that the Dwarven Valley Bolters use? I would love to have that as a main weapon. Nice damage PLUS slowdown?
As for the guns idea, probably not a good idea (although I would love it) but what about some explosive type of weapon? They're already in GG. I'm thinking a sapper class that would use black powder to "assist" them in destruction.
Thanks always love finding an new author to check out.
(disclaimer: I do not want guns introduced into neverwinter, this is more a thought experiment)
Ok so you're Lord Neverember. You've got Thayans, Undead, Dragons, and Drow attacking you on a regular basis. Wizards, Warlocks, Sorcerors, etc work wonderfully as elite defenders to decimate battlefields. However to be effective each one needs years of practice and training to be an engine of destruction on the battlefield. Some classes less than others but the concept remains. So lets say an inventor or artificier dropped the plans for functional muskets and cannons into your lap. The start up cost would be high, however they all could be operated by commoners with ten weeks of training. (I believe this is how long US army basic training is, may be wrong) This means you now have troops that are much less training intensive and can be replaced rapidly rather than in a span of years. They cause less damage individually than a wizard, but far more damage than a foot soldier. You're regular forces can now shred the enemies regulars in rapid order, while your assassins (rogues) poison the enemy officers and wizards. Your casters can be held in reserve safely to backup your regulars or to take out any enemy casters that survived your rogues. It would be effective and brutal, if you were the only one using this tactic to start with you could conquer a large chunk of territory before anyone had a chance to respond and hold it almost indefinately. This brings the warfront farther away from your home city and keeps it's people safe.
You would do far better to train crossbow wielding soldiers, with each shooter having two loaders they could keep up an impressive and devastating volume of fire. A crossbow requires far less training than a longbow to use effectively and has none of the drawbacks of smoke powder.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
Comments
The best reason in any fantasy world that I've seen comes from Brandon Sanderson's Mystborn trilogy. (yes I know he wrote a fourth book, but it was originally a trilogy) In that world the evil god emperor brutally suppressed technology advances like guns and gunpowder because it gave too much power to the common soldiers rather than the elite and could be easily used by the slave caste for an uprising.
If I had to write it, guns wouldn't be found in FR from Wizard guilds conducting the same kind of campaign in secret.
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Interesting. Thanks for the extended explanations.
Yeah, that's similar to what I was thinking of how it would play out. Magic is limited by difficulty or availability, guns are relatively easy to use. Mages (and the aristocracy) put limits on gun ownership to preserve their power.
I remember playing the 1st edition game in that adventure was cool was the first time I encountered mind flayers as an alien race. gygax was being very mean that day he put that gem out, lazer guns, robots, alien plant life radiation, space armor 90% of every thing in the ship wanted to kill you fun times.
As others said it has nothing to do with realism and everything to do with theme.
I don't play games with guns in them. They don't interest me.
I stick to games like D&D with swords and magic. That interests me.
Grand Theft Auto is a fun game but I don't think it would be more fun if they added magic. Same goes in reverse, keep the guns out of my D&D.
As for Neverwinter, no. If I want to play a game with dwarves and guns, I load Drakensang and play my Steam Mechanicus for a while.
Maybe in another D&D game, but not here.
As long as it had a long cooldown and high chance of blowing up in your face...something like that could be fun.
But a class with guns as main weaponry?
Totally against.
See the "Guardians of the Flame" series by Joel Rosenberg for a good - and particularly appropriate - example.
NOt sure how many people have mentioned this, but indeed, Faerun's Gnomes provided various firearms from wheelock pistols to blunderbus to I think even cannons. I can't remember if they made it into 3rd edition and know very little about 4e and 5e but there is history where it was indeed in the realms, it was amusing as if you rolled a 1 you bascially blew up your pistol and shot yourself lol.
Truckload of lies. In the end, you'll see a bunch of halflings stabbing and shooting up the place.
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FR had those years ago developed by Lantanese gnomes, basic single shot arquebi and later pistols - their critical hits were quite amazing. Smoke Powder was also part of the Spelljammer setting.
I wouldn't think it's very common for half or more of Neverwinter's residents to be good-aligned drows, but, alas...
I used to run into criticism running around the Enclave with my Apparatus of Kwalish along anti-technology lines. "That's a MACHINE! It should be ILLEGAL!!!" and that kind of thing. I guess those voices have gotten used to the occasional burst of blue sparkly steam...
Why bother inventing guns and artillery when magic is so much more practical and relatively safe?
I second that
军医骑士 超过三千水平 突破极限释放开
Daily: Granworm Sword
Enounter: Vow of Enmity | Worm Smasher | 縮退砲
Class Feature: Kabbalah System
Aura: Warp Field
IGN: Faluzure 19k Tenebrous Soulbinder Scourge Warlock
(The Corrupted) (Retired)
Ok so you're Lord Neverember. You've got Thayans, Undead, Dragons, and Drow attacking you on a regular basis. Wizards, Warlocks, Sorcerors, etc work wonderfully as elite defenders to decimate battlefields. However to be effective each one needs years of practice and training to be an engine of destruction on the battlefield. Some classes less than others but the concept remains. So lets say an inventor or artificier dropped the plans for functional muskets and cannons into your lap. The start up cost would be high, however they all could be operated by commoners with ten weeks of training. (I believe this is how long US army basic training is, may be wrong) This means you now have troops that are much less training intensive and can be replaced rapidly rather than in a span of years. They cause less damage individually than a wizard, but far more damage than a foot soldier. You're regular forces can now shred the enemies regulars in rapid order, while your assassins (rogues) poison the enemy officers and wizards. Your casters can be held in reserve safely to backup your regulars or to take out any enemy casters that survived your rogues. It would be effective and brutal, if you were the only one using this tactic to start with you could conquer a large chunk of territory before anyone had a chance to respond and hold it almost indefinately. This brings the warfront farther away from your home city and keeps it's people safe.
I love this series. In fact I used to keep a Slovatsky Law in my signatures and these are the only soft cover books I have on my shelf...
However, the reason I didn't bring this up initially, although I do think of it every time somebody brings up guns in D&D, is mainly because it is not Forgotten Realms.
However let's expand a bit...
The reason guns were introduced to this world was because five people from our dimension were introduced to it and one of them happened to be an engineer who knew how to make gun powder and firearms. When they ended up stuck there it was the obvious way to make a name for themselves and carve a piece of the world for themselves.
Had Lou Riccetti not ended up there guns would not have advanced to the point they did in such a short time. He already knew how to make guns so the entire plug and play perfecting designs was already known to him. In a world where designs have yet to be perfected, magic still looks like the more appealing option.
And frankly although I did really enjoy the series...
If you look at the reviews you notice the "magic" of the books goes away as soon as the rest of the world figures out how to make guns. Unfortunately his incorporation in guns was likely the main cause of the downfall of the series and why after the first four books reviews and opinions go from being some of the most entrancing stories to 'I only keep reading because I want to see "Gilligan get off the island." '
Also If I remember correct one of the AD&D versions, probably 2nd Edition, had a Blunderbuss in the weapon charts. Another might have actually had a flint lock in the chart IIRC.
You could also find a way, instead of guns, to make an endless quiver hand crossbow that would ultimately fill the same kind of function people want the guns for.
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I'm not necessarily against the idea of firearms in a fantasy game, I'm just curious as to what specific characteristics about them someone would want in a high fantasy setting...
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As a DM, there is a major problem with this that I see and I see why countries, cities, and organizations do not use it.
. . . The problem with using Smoke Powder in such a way along the Sword Coast (a region steeped proud in its "Free States" since the first fall of Netheril) would cause war between neighboring City-States (like Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, Luskan, Silverymoon, Icewind Dale, Irieabor, etc.), Countries (like Calimshan, Netheril, Moonshae Isles, etc.), and probably even make enemies out of powerful Nations (like Cormyr, Comanthtyr, etc.) and organizations (like the Harpers, etc.) for examples. So, while it may help to win the fight against Thay, Dragons, and other threats - the cost would be too great; all out war against their allies.
. . . Lord Neverember, power-hungry as he may be and even though an antagonist in source material, isn't about to declare war on his "allies" just for the sake of highly rare, regulated, and outlawed Smoke Powder. He's working too hard to win over the People of his realms (Waterdeep & Neverwinter) to throw that all away and make himself and Neverwinter an enemy of Faerun.
. . . Think of Smoke Powder like a Nuclear Weapon in relation to our Real World. You get it, and you cause a diplomatic situation. You use it and you cause a World War between you and those whom were your allies and then all your enemies sneak in for the kill. Let's also not forget about the people themselves, who would riot and cause civil unrest. While the Spellplage happened over a hundred years ago, the destruction wrought upon by countries using massive amounts of unstable magic (Halruaa, Lantan, etc.) being wiped off the map is well known across Faerun. Such flagrant use of it would cause wide-spread panic -- especially within those races that live for hundreds of years.
. . . All the Smoke Powder in the Realms wouldn't hold against the forces of Calimshan, the War Wizards of Cormyr, or the High Mages of the Elven Courts and with your allies denouncing you for using a "weapon of mass destruction," Neverember would be all alone trying to protect a city in civil unrest with enemies at every gate -- even the sea. Neverwinter would be wiped off the map... if not by its own doing, then by those seeking to eradicate those using Smoke Powder as a weapon of war.
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How about the crossbows that the Dwarven Valley Bolters use? I would love to have that as a main weapon. Nice damage PLUS slowdown?
As for the guns idea, probably not a good idea (although I would love it) but what about some explosive type of weapon? They're already in GG. I'm thinking a sapper class that would use black powder to "assist" them in destruction.
You would do far better to train crossbow wielding soldiers, with each shooter having two loaders they could keep up an impressive and devastating volume of fire. A crossbow requires far less training than a longbow to use effectively and has none of the drawbacks of smoke powder.