The basic problem, as I see it, is that the TR is a striker, a class type that in any other MMO would make him/her a squish, single target DPS god, like they were in beta. In order to keep said massive single target damage dealer from quickly and effortlessly killing any other class they could get a hold of in PVP, they had to be (and were) nerfed until they could not reliably and effortless kill a 40k HP GWF more than about half the time. Which naturally rendered same said TR nearly worthless in a similar fight against a single target with 1 million plus HP (i.e. PVE content).
Until Cryptic figures out how to make the same powers/abilities/classes/gear work differently in PVP than in PVE, the TR will remain forever gimped and without a primary purpose.
They've had the ability to do that since Beta. Back then I remember one of my first char's (CW) powers as having less duration in PVP than in PVE. I think it was Entangling Force, but regardless. The current crop of changes to Assailing Force (50% damage vs. players) or Frontline Surge (stuns players, prones mobs) has always been possible. The devs took the route of trying to balance PVE vs. PVP instead of working on them separately, and the current state of the TR is the result.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
Yes, broken and largely useless aside from PVP node defense/contesting. Not much game left for TR's currently, and been that way for a long time now.
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mojoratMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 90
edited August 2014
I was going to start a thread about this, but after some thought i decided to add it here. there seems to be alot of confusion about wether TR are a good DPS class. Some people claim they are useless as above, others say they are just fine (although dont have a quote for the second off hand). Really, the truth is probably somwhere in between but i'll start with.
Its my opinion that TR have absolutely no problem dealing damage. I have been wondering if the reason for this Belief (that Tr do poor damage) stems from the use of of the built in Combat meter the game provides. Case in point I play a 12k gs WK Tr and some times I am down to 3rd or 4rth spot (although in cases where there is not an extreme gear difference if im ever that low there is probably less than a 100k or so between 2 3 4)
Alot of things ca affect my position on the damage meter. 1) the Encounter powers I use : There are powrs i like thematically and enjoy using That are not always the best choice but have a higher fun factor (say Hateful knives in pve, vs whirlwind of blades) Additionlly, i am not a big fan of the visualisation of Path of the blades or its theme. What this means is i have days where i want to peak at DPS, where i run Blitz+Path of the blades +another and no defense and play agressively. Other days not. Alot of this stuff on some level is likelyy a different factor for everyone. 2) The dungeon I am running. Some dungeons because of The amount of Aoe or cone's by mobs i it affects how agressive i can be. point of fact When I run Say Caverns of Karrundax (sp?) If i am agressive with melee I die, i go all ranged in this dungeon. 3) Paragon path allthough honestly its my opinion the only reason MI is a higher Dps path is ITC allows the player to play agressively.
So there are alot if if's buts. maybe's above.. Everyone's experience is going to be diferent based on what they want from the game and personal skill.. but Since i started running ACT and could get a much clearer picture of the dungeon battles (such as individual boss batles) The thing I have noticed is... even in that run whre i came in 4rth in pain meter? #1 on all of the bosses.
Really there are alot of factors in why a character does good or bad DPS, but i think a Tr who is on the ball is still the highest Damage class in the game for single target. I basically dont expect anyone with similar gear to mine to out damage me on bosses. Ultimately the Painmeter is a mis-leading indicator as it favours AOE damage which oth4er classes are better at.
I had TR with 100% dps build on single target and CW which was built on dps(thaumaturge). And even though TR had better weapon enchant, better gs power etc i never could make such a damage as my CW on single target. There is nothing to compare(100 k+ crits on sudden storm and other skills). CW has few times better aoe skills than TR single target skills. CW is op to just unimaginable extent. CW is better than TR in control, debuffs, aoe dmg, single target damage.
TR is the weakest class and it will take months to make it playable. Or just one action-delete all nerfs from begun of game.
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
I had TR with 100% dps build on single target and CW which was built on dps(thaumaturge). And even though TR had better weapon enchant, better gs power etc i never could make such a damage as my CW on single target. There is nothing to compare(100 k+ crits on sudden storm and other skills). CW has few times better aoe skills than TR single target skills. CW is op to just unimaginable extent. CW is better than TR in control, debuffs, aoe dmg, single target damage.
TR is the weakest class and it will take months to make it playable. Or just one action-delete all nerfs from begun of game.
My TR has outdamaged higher GS CWs and GWFs on many occasions, taking and holding aggro for the entire fight. But only on bosses because normal mobs don't have enough HP for the DF bleeds to really matter. That's ultimately a large part of the problem. Other classes can do a lot of upfront damage and even the strong mobs go down quickly. TR has to rely on one at will to proc bleeds to be able to keep up or exceed that damage and those bleeds only matter in three fights in each dungeon. In every other fight, by the time you've got enough bleeds to start doing damage to something, the rest of the party has finished up everything else and focuses your target, causing it to melt.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
normal mobs don't have enough HP for the DF bleeds to really matter. That's ultimately a large part of the problem.
lool not even close
cw has 5x that problem as tr
they cant finish half of the rotation thats why they run in front
more then 2 big hp mobs are trs worst enemys
cw do insane dmg there
I am talking here about excellent players only and about best instance-CN. My CW does approx same damage as one excellent CW. So we took same people except for that as TR that time i went and DC was full healing no debuff. All was counted. We do it rather automatically many times, so it wasn't random. So the results were very reliable. If you take weak CW sure you can outdps them. Of course i can outdps everyone in party if players can't play their class, gs is not important if they can not use full potential of their class. But as for testing purpose when we take a look on very skilled players who knows how to play then comes only class power. And the truth is that i could barely keep draco aggro(and not always but i was playing like crazy not even looking if i can die just to keep that aggro) while that CW was damaging huge ammount of units-while i was dealing damage to draco only. Well after when he upgraded on perfect vorpal from greater i had absolutely no chance to keep aggro. Well as important fact i can tell that i was using Shocking execution which in mod 2 dealt 50-90 k crits. Right now TR has no serious daily even.
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited August 2014
The metaphor I find compelling is that all the monsters are buckets of hitpoints waiting to be emptied. A TR is not as good at emptying many small buckets at once as a more AoE-focused class. They are still very good at emptying large buckets one at a time (unless/until you get into the situation Pitshade describes).
Because the damage tracker is looking at the total of all hitpoint buckets emptied, those who emptied many small buckets get counted higher than those who mostly just got to empty the bigger ones.
Therefore, as referred to earlier, one of my TRs basically only gets to top the charts when pugging with people who are not very efficient at emptying hitpoint buckets. A CW or GWF that is not using their AoEs probably won't come close to your DPS. If you get into a situation where you basically have to kill everything yourself, then you're gonna top the charts even if you're playing a DC or GF.
I've held aggro on Draco against two good CWs, one of whom has soloed epic Spellplague (seen the pics) so you believe what you want to, but I know what the class is still capable of.
Yes, the class should do more damage upfront. Yes the dungeons are poorly designed for the various classes to play a role. But despite all the nerfs, the TR can still deal out damage.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
Actually it has got more to do with the prerequisites the TR needs to secure before it reaches its full potential[/quote] - both in PvE and PvP... and the fact is, the TR needs a LOT of those, while other classes do not.
This problem stems up from the fact that the TR is essentially a "light melee" archetype which can be described as a lightly armoured/defended melee class that relies on a combination of technical utilities/CCs and high damage for combat. Hence, unlike most "heavy melees" which are rarely effected by outside conditions and in most cases have the leisure of simply "wading in" and "doing stuff", the "light melees" need to set up certain conditions to be able to both maximize its offense potential, and at the same time guarantee its safety. If such conditions are not met, it either does good damage but dies off quickly, or survives forever but rarely makes even a scratch upon the enemy.
Now, as implied by the term "archetype", this difference between class designs and its play styles are common between all MMORPGs. Every game has essentially the same sort of implications when you choose either the "heavy" or "light" melee types.
...
Talking about only the PVE problem, it is that NW is extreme in both cases. Generally for the "heavy melees" it is much too easy to "wade in and do stuff", whereas a whole assortment of problems makes it entirely too difficult for "light melees" -- the TRs -- to do its job.
For most of PvE content, the challenge/difficulty is much too simple and easy, and this brings up the problem that no matter how clever, technical, and awesome you play your TR, it just simply can't beat the efficieny of a GWF+CW combo.
You can set up this most clever and crafty TR that has all sorts of tricks up its sleeve, anywhere between playing the 'assassin' role, to party support, squishy bodyguard, etc etc.. but what's the point? The PvE content isn't difficult as to need any of those. All you need in a party is a CW to gather up the mobs and bombard it with AoEs, and GWFs to play indestructible meat shields and additional AoE dealers. In this game you don't need anything else.
Compare it with other similar archetypes in other similar games. Although preferences may differ, still a Rogue has a significant role in WoW PvE content.
For one thing, in some of the more higher difficulty dungeon-themed challenges the mob groups are threatening enough to cause real team-wipes before even the team reaches the middle boss. You can't just have Mages CCing mob groups forever, and without a real tank with real aggro-drawing techniques the mob groups will spread out and simply overwhelm the squishy members of the party.
In this kind of an environment, the WoW Rogue plays a key role before combat starts, by whacking a mob and keeping it unconscious for a very long time, preventing it from joining combat. When the fight is initiated it plays an important part of the surgical precision required to take out mobs in a certain order by being a source of potent and repeating CCs on it, as well as one of the few classes that can cut off mob spell casting in boss fights. Its role can be substituted by other classes, yes, but aside from matters of preference a Rogue has a real role there.
Not so in NW. As mentioned, the dungeon content of the game is basically "run up, aggro all trash mobs with the meat shield, dump AoEs". Hence, the only viable role for TRs left is just simply pure DPS... and in this sense, no matter how high the DPS climbs up, no TR can beat the efficiency of GWF+CW combos in a team. People would rather add in another GWF or CW to the equation than make room for a TR since single-target DPS doesn't matter in this game.
Hence, the reason why "bringing back the old DPS" isn't going to do jackshi* to improve the QOL for TRs.
There are also number of reasons as to why situation is getting touger for TRs in PvP as well, but I'l dwell into that later.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited August 2014
Many of the TR nerfs have been exacerbated by the overgearing of content combined with the lack of challenging new content to match. When the meta is just to gather everything up and nuke it, anybody who isn't a nuker is superfluous.
GFs and DCs are in a similar boat, but since they are both also still technically the sole classes in their "role", their unnecessariness kicks in later, only after people get to the point where playing roles isn't important.
I can play a TR that can tactically control a battlefield and stay alive forever while whittling enemies down over time, as well as one that can melt a dragon but needs party support to be safe to do so. The first type is a slow killer and only contributes much in the type of group where you might as well be alone... in a competent party, there's no time for fancy footwork and waiting for DoTs to take effect. The second type is at the mercy of people who still appreciate a good TR.
My two whisperknife builds are the characters I'm currently taking through IWD, and I have a grand time with them on the heroic encounters, but it also emphasizes some limitations of the reward mechanics. Credit doesn't seem to be given for "tanking" an encounter if you're not a traditional tank class, for example, even if you and a total stranger CW did 90% of a 3-5 person encounter by yourselves, and you kept the monsters sufficiently busy that your compadre could stand still to cast.
Actually it has got more to do with the prerequisites the TR needs to secure before it reaches its full potential - both in PvE and PvP... and the fact is, the TR needs a LOT of those, while other classes do not.
This problem stems up from the fact that the TR is essentially a "light melee" archetype which can be described as a lightly armoured/defended melee class that relies on a combination of technical utilities/CCs and high damage for combat. Hence, unlike most "heavy melees" which are rarely effected by outside conditions and in most cases have the leisure of simply "wading in" and "doing stuff", the "light melees" need to set up certain conditions to be able to both maximize its offense potential, and at the same time guarantee its safety. If such conditions are not met, it either does good damage but dies off quickly, or survives forever but rarely makes even a scratch upon the enemy.
Now, as implied by the term "archetype", this difference between class designs and its play styles are common between all MMORPGs. Every game has essentially the same sort of implications when you choose either the "heavy" or "light" melee types.
...
Talking about only the PVE problem, it is that NW is extreme in both cases. Generally for the "heavy melees" it is much too easy to "wade in and do stuff", whereas a whole assortment of problems makes it entirely too difficult for "light melees" -- the TRs -- to do its job.
For most of PvE content, the challenge/difficulty is much too simple and easy, and this brings up the problem that no matter how clever, technical, and awesome you play your TR, it just simply can't beat the efficieny of a GWF+CW combo.
You can set up this most clever and crafty TR that has all sorts of tricks up its sleeve, anywhere between playing the 'assassin' role, to party support, squishy bodyguard, etc etc.. but what's the point? The PvE content isn't difficult as to need any of those. All you need in a party is a CW to gather up the mobs and bombard it with AoEs, and GWFs to play indestructible meat shields and additional AoE dealers. In this game you don't need anything else.
Compare it with other similar archetypes in other similar games. Although preferences may differ, still a Rogue has a significant role in WoW PvE content.
For one thing, in some of the more higher difficulty dungeon-themed challenges the mob groups are threatening enough to cause real team-wipes before even the team reaches the middle boss. You can't just have Mages CCing mob groups forever, and without a real tank with real aggro-drawing techniques the mob groups will spread out and simply overwhelm the squishy members of the party.
In this kind of an environment, the WoW Rogue plays a key role before combat starts, by whacking a mob and keeping it unconscious for a very long time, preventing it from joining combat. When the fight is initiated it plays an important part of the surgical precision required to take out mobs in a certain order by being a source of potent and repeating CCs on it, as well as one of the few classes that can cut off mob spell casting in boss fights. Its role can be substituted by other classes, yes, but aside from matters of preference a Rogue has a real role there.
Not so in NW. As mentioned, the dungeon content of the game is basically "run up, aggro all trash mobs with the meat shield, dump AoEs". Hence, the only viable role for TRs left is just simply pure DPS... and in this sense, no matter how high the DPS climbs up, no TR can beat the efficiency of GWF+CW combos in a team. People would rather add in another GWF or CW to the equation than make room for a TR since single-target DPS doesn't matter in this game.
Hence, the reason why "bringing back the old DPS" isn't going to do jackshi* to improve the QOL for TRs.
There are also number of reasons as to why situation is getting touger for TRs in PvP as well, but I'l dwell into that later.
100%, as a many-year player of many MMORPGs, Kweassa is completely correct. I don't recall ever playing a game that simply eliminates the need for most classes. This game in pve revolves completely around AoE, making classes with AoE abilities extremely "overpowered" vs non AoE classes such as the TR. Also as stated, PvE is largely a joke with VT being about the toughest fight but still easy with working knowledge. When it comes to PvP, you see rogues getting nerfed in EVERY game because of whines about stealth. So, I wonder why perma stealth is one of the most viable builds still and to "balance" this they just nerfed damage immensely, damage that outright made other builds significantly worse? Terrible.
As a classic example of what is wrong with the game and to echo the simple template and content that poses no challenges I will give the end results of a Kessell run I just made with my lesser TR (pure combat built, only vorpal and one or two rank 8's the rest mostly 7's and a few 6's, 2600 ap but only 5k power). I know this is an easy run but there was a GWF that had never been here before, geared in a mix of purified and corrupted with rank 5's and a few rank 6's, no weapon enchantment, no epic shirt/pants. Guess who had the top damage, by a good 60%? (that GWF if I need to say it). I was next followed by a CW and then a better geared GWF that I assume was a sentinel because I had 250% more damage than him. This top damage GWF even managed to constantly type in chat as well and of course was the one tanking most of the time too. His damage on kessell was also superior to mine but I was closer on that than overall, it being only about 15% better there.
First I totally agree with kweassa. Furthermore this game lacks of intelligent game mechanics. The dungeons all have the same scheme.
Why is is so difficult to build dungeons where you need specific classes or charcters with specific abilities, only some examples:
- Put in some traps that can´t be avoid, they have to be disarmed by a rogue.
- Put in some levers which can only be triggered by a character with a Str. of 24 or higher.
- Put in some runes which can only be triggered by a chatacter with an Int. Wis. of 24 or higher.
- Put in some riddles that randomly change.
- Put in some NPC opponent which can be defeated by dipolo, buff or by intimidating...
- Concerning PVE please cancel the table board X which allegedly should show your dps. First this table is totally distorted, second in my eyes dungeons are not a competition but a teamplay. The dps chart gives particulary new palyers a wrong idea of playing PVE in a team.
etc...........
There are so many possablities which this game does not use... In my opinion it is not enough by releasing only new dungeons, new classes or races, because that does not solve the problems mentioned above.
Sorry for my english, it´s not my native language.
However, have fun playing.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited August 2014
I done some test after i complited with my old executioner the new set .
Well TR s can be realy usefull with GF combination or GWF combination cuz mark give combat advantage and the new armor give more combat advantage to the pt.
I done some test after i complited with my old executioner the new set .
Well TR s can be realy usefull with GF combination or GWF combination cuz mark give combat advantage and the new armor give more combat advantage to the pt.
...is it AS MUCH or MORE useful than having a GWF run up the entire area, aggro all the mob groups, and then having 2xCWs vacuum-clean the field with Singularity + assortment of AoEs and just move over to the next area in a jiffy?
If not, welcome to another brilliant-but-ignored TR setup.
Currently, the TR in PvE is basically the same thing as using a tooth pick to skewer and pick off peas one by one from a whole bowlful of them to empty it, whereas the GWF+CW combo simply dumps the bowl and empties it in one move. So no, it doesn't matter how hard and powerful you can skewer a pea with that toothpick -- you're never going to measure up to classes who can simply dump the bowl.
Even worse -- the TR doesn't even have a strong enough toothpick. The damage can be more or less optimized to be satisfactory levels, but other than the damage, the TR is frustratingly ineffective in terms of utility.
Slow, clunky attacks. Self-rooting with melee attacks. Gap closer power weak and much too long recharge. Abysmal CC efficiency. Hopelessly low effect but punishingly high recharge time on debuff powers. Poor synergy between powers. Weak self preservation methods. No real movement speed enhancers.
The end result? We TRs are a light melee class that is outmaneuverd and outpaced by 7 feet tall warriors in full metal plate armor and carries a 6 feet weapon. We have no really applicable CCs to protect ourselves and turn the fight into our favor, so when we are out of stealth, we've got nothing. Our deflect/heal efficiency isn't as high as HRs. Our defense/damage reduction is nothing like the two fighters. HRs and CWs.. even DCs have better CCs.
We TRs are the WORST in everything.
The only redeeming quality -- the overpowering stealth, which offsets every character flaw stated above and makes it class strong enough to want to play. Being invisible is that much incredibly powerful tactical advantage. It is probably the single most powerful self-buff in the game, even stronger than Unstoppable in terms of its utility.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited August 2014
Well i have run dungeons ower 20 times in prev.
And i can say if we left CW behind we was much more faster.
The new GF DC SW combo are really good in pve Dungeons +1 GWF or +1 HR +1 TR was always better and faster .
Cuz TR can boost the team dps with the new set opened up new options .
What you pointed out its on live and i agree with this .
Well i have run dungeons ower 20 times in prev.
And i can say if we left CW behind we was much more faster.
The new GF DC SW combo are really good in pve Dungeons +1 GWF or +1 HR +1 TR was always better and faster .
Cuz TR can boost the team dps with the new set opened up new options .
What you pointed out its on live and i agree with this .
If the set bonus is good enough to get a TR a group spot, my natural instinct is to say that set bonus is way too powerful.
We have no really applicable CCs to protect ourselves and turn the fight into our favor, so when we are out of stealth, we've got nothing.
With just a bit of care to get aggro on only the mob we're attacking, it's possible to a combination of smoke bomb, dazing and stealth to avoid most damage. Life steal can easily take care of the rest. Of course that just creates the problem two of our encounter slots are taken up with defensive powers - though dazing does do fair damage. None of my other chars, not even my DC on the occasions she has a bar set up to fight, have to slot defensive powers just to run the content. AND it mostly only works in ToS as the driders aren't immune to dazes. Otherwise you're stuck with ITC (no damage) and having to time your dodges just right to avoid losing the rest of your damage. Of course it's not like we have any super damage encounters anyway, except for the automatic crit from stealth, LB does less damage over time than WR, because the cooldown is so long.
But I realized a long time ago that this game is extremely unfriendly to melees, with all the no range AOEs, knockbacks and prones that so many elites and bosses spam. Pyraphenia is one of the worst fights in the game as a TR, despite being a DPS check because half the time you're taking damage just by being in melee range of the boss, no matter who has aggro. (not to even dwell on the sea of red that you get in that fight) At least the fighter classes can have a lot more HP easily (my destroyer is NOT a glass cannon and still does great damage) and ways to avoid getting cc'd while still doing damage.
Cuz TR can boost the team dps with the new set opened up new options .
I think the state of the GF on live demonstrates how the player base feels about party members who are mostly just there to buff. The current changes for that class on Preview will hopefully be enough to change the meta, but those buffs are pretty extreme. Sadly, the devs insistence that no role will be required to complete the content just ends up meaning that the only role appreciated is MOAR damage spread as wide as possible.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
1. I actually liked the set bonus and am interested in seeing how it works when live. That said, how do you have the 4 piece already? I thought thought there is a time grind similar to the other mods.
2. My initial thought was that it needed to be buffed and made to not stack. This would make the TR a great synergy with GF, but you couldn't stack them.
3. It would be great if they could add a stacking bonus to either the armor or weapons, so that it will make our DF stack higher with more damage vs single targets. This would really make the TR stand out on boss fights.
I do like where they are going from a grouping bonus standpoint though. TBH our mod 1,2,3 sets were pretty lackluster except the pvp ones. It would be worth revisiting some of those armor sets to make them appealing for group content as well.
1. I actually liked the set bonus and am interested in seeing how it works when live. That said, how do you have the 4 piece already? I thought thought there is a time grind similar to the other mods.
2. My initial thought was that it needed to be buffed and made to not stack. This would make the TR a great synergy with GF, but you couldn't stack them.
3. It would be great if they could add a stacking bonus to either the armor or weapons, so that it will make our DF stack higher with more damage vs single targets. This would really make the TR stand out on boss fights.
I do like where they are going from a grouping bonus standpoint though. TBH our mod 1,2,3 sets were pretty lackluster except the pvp ones. It would be worth revisiting some of those armor sets to make them appealing for group content as well.
no. we need just:
- better damages
- better survivability tools.
- increase stealth base time.
- reworked feats
- reworked bait and switch.
- charisma fixed
- 1 more or less spammable CC
- armor pen added to 1 of our stat like every other classes.
And Deft Strike back to an at will! Actually I would like to see it back to an at will and also where it could instead be slotted as an encounter (not both at the same time, but flexible in that you could choose either at any given time).
no. we need just:
- better damages
- better survivability tools.
- increase stealth base time.
- reworked feats
- reworked bait and switch.
- charisma fixed
- 1 more or less spammable CC
- armor pen added to 1 of our stat like every other classes.
no. we need just:
- better damages
- better survivability tools.
- increase stealth base time.
- reworked feats
- reworked bait and switch.
- charisma fixed
- 1 more or less spammable CC
- armor pen added to 1 of our stat like every other classes.
Stop. perfect TR.
Stop. OP'd TR.
They can't buff our damage, stealth time, AND let us continue to attack from stealth... I won't even get into spammable CC.
Its just not going to happen. They have already said they are pretty much gunna make perma-stealth effectively go away or make it insanely hard to do.
I expect they are going to make at-wills drastically reduce concealment time when used from stealth. Once they do that, they can buff up our encounter damage and even squeak in a CC ability, though I wouldn't expect the moon as this can easily send us down the GWF route with high CC and high DPS.
They can't buff our damage, stealth time, AND let us continue to attack from stealth... I won't even get into spammable CC.
Its just not going to happen. They have already said they are pretty much gunna make perma-stealth effectively go away or make it insanely hard to do.
I expect they are going to make at-wills drastically reduce concealment time when used from stealth. Once they do that, they can buff up our encounter damage and even squeak in a CC ability, though I wouldn't expect the moon as this can easily send us down the GWF route with high CC and high DPS.
I would like more tricks for my trickster. How about smokebomb actually working same as rogue NPC, IE you are stunned when the encounter is triggered. Right now you can drop smoke bomb and then the enemy just dodges out or melee strikes you when you are in middle of smoke bomb lol.
Deft strike should really slow them, I am talking at least 50% and from stealth it is longer with a debuff.
These kind of things. Just fix what we have and then see where they are.
Comments
Until Cryptic figures out how to make the same powers/abilities/classes/gear work differently in PVP than in PVE, the TR will remain forever gimped and without a primary purpose.
Its my opinion that TR have absolutely no problem dealing damage. I have been wondering if the reason for this Belief (that Tr do poor damage) stems from the use of of the built in Combat meter the game provides. Case in point I play a 12k gs WK Tr and some times I am down to 3rd or 4rth spot (although in cases where there is not an extreme gear difference if im ever that low there is probably less than a 100k or so between 2 3 4)
Alot of things ca affect my position on the damage meter. 1) the Encounter powers I use : There are powrs i like thematically and enjoy using That are not always the best choice but have a higher fun factor (say Hateful knives in pve, vs whirlwind of blades) Additionlly, i am not a big fan of the visualisation of Path of the blades or its theme. What this means is i have days where i want to peak at DPS, where i run Blitz+Path of the blades +another and no defense and play agressively. Other days not. Alot of this stuff on some level is likelyy a different factor for everyone. 2) The dungeon I am running. Some dungeons because of The amount of Aoe or cone's by mobs i it affects how agressive i can be. point of fact When I run Say Caverns of Karrundax (sp?) If i am agressive with melee I die, i go all ranged in this dungeon. 3) Paragon path allthough honestly its my opinion the only reason MI is a higher Dps path is ITC allows the player to play agressively.
So there are alot if if's buts. maybe's above.. Everyone's experience is going to be diferent based on what they want from the game and personal skill.. but Since i started running ACT and could get a much clearer picture of the dungeon battles (such as individual boss batles) The thing I have noticed is... even in that run whre i came in 4rth in pain meter? #1 on all of the bosses.
Really there are alot of factors in why a character does good or bad DPS, but i think a Tr who is on the ball is still the highest Damage class in the game for single target. I basically dont expect anyone with similar gear to mine to out damage me on bosses. Ultimately the Painmeter is a mis-leading indicator as it favours AOE damage which oth4er classes are better at.
TR is the weakest class and it will take months to make it playable. Or just one action-delete all nerfs from begun of game.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
i have exact same experience
lool not even close
cw has 5x that problem as tr
they cant finish half of the rotation thats why they run in front
more then 2 big hp mobs are trs worst enemys
cw do insane dmg there
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Because the damage tracker is looking at the total of all hitpoint buckets emptied, those who emptied many small buckets get counted higher than those who mostly just got to empty the bigger ones.
Therefore, as referred to earlier, one of my TRs basically only gets to top the charts when pugging with people who are not very efficient at emptying hitpoint buckets. A CW or GWF that is not using their AoEs probably won't come close to your DPS. If you get into a situation where you basically have to kill everything yourself, then you're gonna top the charts even if you're playing a DC or GF.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
vs
tr-bis everything for pve 19gs
i bet that skilled cw will out dps equaly skilled tr without problem in any dungeon
conclusion
tr is not a striker class or controler
its a mediocre single target in non single target dungeons
Yes, the class should do more damage upfront. Yes the dungeons are poorly designed for the various classes to play a role. But despite all the nerfs, the TR can still deal out damage.
This problem stems up from the fact that the TR is essentially a "light melee" archetype which can be described as a lightly armoured/defended melee class that relies on a combination of technical utilities/CCs and high damage for combat. Hence, unlike most "heavy melees" which are rarely effected by outside conditions and in most cases have the leisure of simply "wading in" and "doing stuff", the "light melees" need to set up certain conditions to be able to both maximize its offense potential, and at the same time guarantee its safety. If such conditions are not met, it either does good damage but dies off quickly, or survives forever but rarely makes even a scratch upon the enemy.
Now, as implied by the term "archetype", this difference between class designs and its play styles are common between all MMORPGs. Every game has essentially the same sort of implications when you choose either the "heavy" or "light" melee types.
...
Talking about only the PVE problem, it is that NW is extreme in both cases. Generally for the "heavy melees" it is much too easy to "wade in and do stuff", whereas a whole assortment of problems makes it entirely too difficult for "light melees" -- the TRs -- to do its job.
For most of PvE content, the challenge/difficulty is much too simple and easy, and this brings up the problem that no matter how clever, technical, and awesome you play your TR, it just simply can't beat the efficieny of a GWF+CW combo.
You can set up this most clever and crafty TR that has all sorts of tricks up its sleeve, anywhere between playing the 'assassin' role, to party support, squishy bodyguard, etc etc.. but what's the point? The PvE content isn't difficult as to need any of those. All you need in a party is a CW to gather up the mobs and bombard it with AoEs, and GWFs to play indestructible meat shields and additional AoE dealers. In this game you don't need anything else.
Compare it with other similar archetypes in other similar games. Although preferences may differ, still a Rogue has a significant role in WoW PvE content.
For one thing, in some of the more higher difficulty dungeon-themed challenges the mob groups are threatening enough to cause real team-wipes before even the team reaches the middle boss. You can't just have Mages CCing mob groups forever, and without a real tank with real aggro-drawing techniques the mob groups will spread out and simply overwhelm the squishy members of the party.
In this kind of an environment, the WoW Rogue plays a key role before combat starts, by whacking a mob and keeping it unconscious for a very long time, preventing it from joining combat. When the fight is initiated it plays an important part of the surgical precision required to take out mobs in a certain order by being a source of potent and repeating CCs on it, as well as one of the few classes that can cut off mob spell casting in boss fights. Its role can be substituted by other classes, yes, but aside from matters of preference a Rogue has a real role there.
Not so in NW. As mentioned, the dungeon content of the game is basically "run up, aggro all trash mobs with the meat shield, dump AoEs". Hence, the only viable role for TRs left is just simply pure DPS... and in this sense, no matter how high the DPS climbs up, no TR can beat the efficiency of GWF+CW combos in a team. People would rather add in another GWF or CW to the equation than make room for a TR since single-target DPS doesn't matter in this game.
Hence, the reason why "bringing back the old DPS" isn't going to do jackshi* to improve the QOL for TRs.
There are also number of reasons as to why situation is getting touger for TRs in PvP as well, but I'l dwell into that later.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
GFs and DCs are in a similar boat, but since they are both also still technically the sole classes in their "role", their unnecessariness kicks in later, only after people get to the point where playing roles isn't important.
I can play a TR that can tactically control a battlefield and stay alive forever while whittling enemies down over time, as well as one that can melt a dragon but needs party support to be safe to do so. The first type is a slow killer and only contributes much in the type of group where you might as well be alone... in a competent party, there's no time for fancy footwork and waiting for DoTs to take effect. The second type is at the mercy of people who still appreciate a good TR.
My two whisperknife builds are the characters I'm currently taking through IWD, and I have a grand time with them on the heroic encounters, but it also emphasizes some limitations of the reward mechanics. Credit doesn't seem to be given for "tanking" an encounter if you're not a traditional tank class, for example, even if you and a total stranger CW did 90% of a 3-5 person encounter by yourselves, and you kept the monsters sufficiently busy that your compadre could stand still to cast.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
100%, as a many-year player of many MMORPGs, Kweassa is completely correct. I don't recall ever playing a game that simply eliminates the need for most classes. This game in pve revolves completely around AoE, making classes with AoE abilities extremely "overpowered" vs non AoE classes such as the TR. Also as stated, PvE is largely a joke with VT being about the toughest fight but still easy with working knowledge. When it comes to PvP, you see rogues getting nerfed in EVERY game because of whines about stealth. So, I wonder why perma stealth is one of the most viable builds still and to "balance" this they just nerfed damage immensely, damage that outright made other builds significantly worse? Terrible.
Why is is so difficult to build dungeons where you need specific classes or charcters with specific abilities, only some examples:
- Put in some traps that can´t be avoid, they have to be disarmed by a rogue.
- Put in some levers which can only be triggered by a character with a Str. of 24 or higher.
- Put in some runes which can only be triggered by a chatacter with an Int. Wis. of 24 or higher.
- Put in some riddles that randomly change.
- Put in some NPC opponent which can be defeated by dipolo, buff or by intimidating...
- Concerning PVE please cancel the table board X which allegedly should show your dps. First this table is totally distorted, second in my eyes dungeons are not a competition but a teamplay. The dps chart gives particulary new palyers a wrong idea of playing PVE in a team.
etc...........
There are so many possablities which this game does not use... In my opinion it is not enough by releasing only new dungeons, new classes or races, because that does not solve the problems mentioned above.
Sorry for my english, it´s not my native language.
However, have fun playing.
Well TR s can be realy usefull with GF combination or GWF combination cuz mark give combat advantage and the new armor give more combat advantage to the pt.
...is it AS MUCH or MORE useful than having a GWF run up the entire area, aggro all the mob groups, and then having 2xCWs vacuum-clean the field with Singularity + assortment of AoEs and just move over to the next area in a jiffy?
If not, welcome to another brilliant-but-ignored TR setup.
Currently, the TR in PvE is basically the same thing as using a tooth pick to skewer and pick off peas one by one from a whole bowlful of them to empty it, whereas the GWF+CW combo simply dumps the bowl and empties it in one move. So no, it doesn't matter how hard and powerful you can skewer a pea with that toothpick -- you're never going to measure up to classes who can simply dump the bowl.
Even worse -- the TR doesn't even have a strong enough toothpick. The damage can be more or less optimized to be satisfactory levels, but other than the damage, the TR is frustratingly ineffective in terms of utility.
Slow, clunky attacks. Self-rooting with melee attacks. Gap closer power weak and much too long recharge. Abysmal CC efficiency. Hopelessly low effect but punishingly high recharge time on debuff powers. Poor synergy between powers. Weak self preservation methods. No real movement speed enhancers.
The end result? We TRs are a light melee class that is outmaneuverd and outpaced by 7 feet tall warriors in full metal plate armor and carries a 6 feet weapon. We have no really applicable CCs to protect ourselves and turn the fight into our favor, so when we are out of stealth, we've got nothing. Our deflect/heal efficiency isn't as high as HRs. Our defense/damage reduction is nothing like the two fighters. HRs and CWs.. even DCs have better CCs.
We TRs are the WORST in everything.
The only redeeming quality -- the overpowering stealth, which offsets every character flaw stated above and makes it class strong enough to want to play. Being invisible is that much incredibly powerful tactical advantage. It is probably the single most powerful self-buff in the game, even stronger than Unstoppable in terms of its utility.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
And i can say if we left CW behind we was much more faster.
The new GF DC SW combo are really good in pve Dungeons +1 GWF or +1 HR +1 TR was always better and faster .
Cuz TR can boost the team dps with the new set opened up new options .
What you pointed out its on live and i agree with this .
If the set bonus is good enough to get a TR a group spot, my natural instinct is to say that set bonus is way too powerful.
But I realized a long time ago that this game is extremely unfriendly to melees, with all the no range AOEs, knockbacks and prones that so many elites and bosses spam. Pyraphenia is one of the worst fights in the game as a TR, despite being a DPS check because half the time you're taking damage just by being in melee range of the boss, no matter who has aggro. (not to even dwell on the sea of red that you get in that fight) At least the fighter classes can have a lot more HP easily (my destroyer is NOT a glass cannon and still does great damage) and ways to avoid getting cc'd while still doing damage.
I think the state of the GF on live demonstrates how the player base feels about party members who are mostly just there to buff. The current changes for that class on Preview will hopefully be enough to change the meta, but those buffs are pretty extreme. Sadly, the devs insistence that no role will be required to complete the content just ends up meaning that the only role appreciated is MOAR damage spread as wide as possible.
1. I actually liked the set bonus and am interested in seeing how it works when live. That said, how do you have the 4 piece already? I thought thought there is a time grind similar to the other mods.
2. My initial thought was that it needed to be buffed and made to not stack. This would make the TR a great synergy with GF, but you couldn't stack them.
3. It would be great if they could add a stacking bonus to either the armor or weapons, so that it will make our DF stack higher with more damage vs single targets. This would really make the TR stand out on boss fights.
I do like where they are going from a grouping bonus standpoint though. TBH our mod 1,2,3 sets were pretty lackluster except the pvp ones. It would be worth revisiting some of those armor sets to make them appealing for group content as well.
- better damages
- better survivability tools.
- increase stealth base time.
- reworked feats
- reworked bait and switch.
- charisma fixed
- 1 more or less spammable CC
- armor pen added to 1 of our stat like every other classes.
Stop. perfect TR.
oh thats all
Stop. OP'd TR.
They can't buff our damage, stealth time, AND let us continue to attack from stealth... I won't even get into spammable CC.
Its just not going to happen. They have already said they are pretty much gunna make perma-stealth effectively go away or make it insanely hard to do.
I expect they are going to make at-wills drastically reduce concealment time when used from stealth. Once they do that, they can buff up our encounter damage and even squeak in a CC ability, though I wouldn't expect the moon as this can easily send us down the GWF route with high CC and high DPS.
I would like more tricks for my trickster. How about smokebomb actually working same as rogue NPC, IE you are stunned when the encounter is triggered. Right now you can drop smoke bomb and then the enemy just dodges out or melee strikes you when you are in middle of smoke bomb lol.
Deft strike should really slow them, I am talking at least 50% and from stealth it is longer with a debuff.
These kind of things. Just fix what we have and then see where they are.