Apart from the lack of gap closing options, also the removal of ANY PRONE from a melee class with no immunities or stealth and the removal of roar original effect of rooting just kills the class.
Sprint gives CC immunity DR and run speed = Gap Closer / Immunities!
Unstoppable gives attack speed, CC immunity, Healing, Determination gain = Gap Closer / Immunities!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
anyway i find it funny with new belts,kits GF ill reach 70k hp and they can pretty much perma block on preview so gl killing 1
The GF also only blocks 80% of damage which means he WILL ALWAYS be losing HP. Even with a guard that never ends we will be losing HP.
And if we are honest, as the TANK the GF should have the largest HP pool, highest DR and highest deflection of all the classes. I do not understand why players of the other classes demand the level of tankiness of a class that carries a shield and wears full plate armour.
The biggest mistake they made was swapping paths. The GWF should have gotten its own 2nd paragon path that focused on AOE damage (not prones) and a gap closer while the GF should have gotten its own single target path, the all of this could have been avoided.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
The CW using Shield on tab, giving up his strongest encounter spell. The video being from before the reduction on Shield and Assailing Force (getting the latter to proc being the probable reason for using Ray of Frost), and from before they boosted the stun time on FLS and Takedown. And the CW being one of the highest rated ones in the game. And he still brought the CW down to like 30%. Context like this is rather important.
CW isnt even trying to dodge and u say he brought CW health down , lol a CW range class with less DR than a tank is able to kill a tank without dodging with just shield . i say its the most unbalanced thing.
that video show how much GWF has been nerfed not being able to do anything in close combat. and as u said without using major spells. and GWF used daily and still died while CW killed him with encounters only.
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someonediesMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,257Arc User
The CW using Shield on tab, giving up his strongest encounter spell. The video being from before the reduction on Shield and Assailing Force (getting the latter to proc being the probable reason for using Ray of Frost), and from before they boosted the stun time on FLS and Takedown. And the CW being one of the highest rated ones in the game. And he still brought the CW down to like 30%. Context like this is rather important.
A CW (ranged class wearing a robe) is FACETANKING a GWF, DPS melee class with mail armor, using frost rays and shield only.
A CW facetanking a GWF in melee range should get DESTROYED, if we talk about balance.
Context is important.
Feedback:
Fix devastating critical. It is not giving the 15% added crit severity on preview.
Give one prone to GWFs. EVERY class can prone, except us. Does not make sense. At all.
Make sprint more responsive to bring it in line with other dodge moves. It's not responsive, delayed, rubberbanded sometimes. Not reliable. Plus, increase stamina base regeneration and, if you really want it in line with other dodges, increase damage resistance.
Need faster determination gain, make it 50% determination for 15% HP lost, full bar for 33% HP lost. Right now it's full bar for 50% (!!) HP lost. Not viable, expecially with buffs to other classes.
Sprint gives CC immunity DR and run speed = Gap Closer / Immunities!
Unstoppable gives attack speed, CC immunity, Healing, Determination gain = Gap Closer / Immunities!
and GF still has more damage than GWF , GF can able to stop 80% of dmg in block which is more than a GWF in his unstoppable.
and an 80k dmg by a GF and GWF can only do than much dmg with img in destroyer path with buffs provided by other classes. GF as sand alone doin more dmg than a GWF with buffs.
Sprint gives CC immunity DR and run speed = Gap Closer / Immunities!
Unstoppable gives attack speed, CC immunity, Healing, Determination gain = Gap Closer / Immunities!
Sprint allows now 7 small bursts the lenght of a HR dodge, with all stamina boons and mobility you can get from feats and boons. HRs are a RANGED CLASS and have 5 of these dodges. For example.
This means the GWF must use his 7 charges to close the huge gap HRs/ CWs can attack you from for the CC immunity to be useful. Then, once he reaches the HR/CW, he must have still 5 bursts to chase the dodging HR/ CW. And some more to use it for defense.
With some simple math, it's not enough.
Uh, before you talk to me about threat rush 3 charges and punishing charge: HRs have, to say, marauders excape, and CWs still have push, for example, and the % chance to repel hitting enemy (don't remember the name). Plus CW stamina regenerates much faster, allwoing them to teleport faster.
Also: Unstoppable now activates after you lose a big chunk of HP. 50% HP lost to have 8 seconds unstoppable. It does not give determination gain (it consumes determination. Where do you get such weird infos??), the healing is nerfed to a 2,5% HP healed from unstoppable IF you feat for it. Which means you lose 50% HP, you get back 2,5%. Wow. Attack speed is on at-wills like sure strike, decreases the damage from at-wills and is not applied to encounters (your encounters are not faster. Or at least, it's not noticeable).
Your theorycrafting is wrong. I don't know how to explain it to you again...plus, i don't know where you get your infos, but you say a lot of false stuff about what a GWF can do...Try to play one please.
Ayroux, just a question: with best gear all rank 10's exc...how much can a PvP GWF hit for now on preview? Just to have a comparison...cause it seems to me that GFs now hit harder than GWFs, other than being tankier.
My IBS seems to hit for a lot less...may be also cause devastatig critical is not adding 15% critical severity as it should.
Feedback:
could be a nice way to "indirectly" buff our survivability, to allow unstoppable to refill our stamina bar
plus make sprint more reliable, more responsive, to be on par with other shift moves from other classes.
Also, as said multiple times, fix determination gain to be 33% total HP for full bar, 15% total HP for half bar.
Well are you talking Destroyer or GWF? Cause that makes a difference and also, the new 20% mark isnt on the PTR yet - so we dont know that part either.
I would say that a Dest GWF (once mark is fixed on PTR) will still hit harder with say IBS than a GFs encounters. But a GF has alot more encounters that hit harder than GWFs encounters. Like a GF can have multiple encounters with high damage, while a GWF really only has IBS.
Also GFs can still prone via Bull Charge, while GWFs cant. GFs have more "gap closers" as well, with unlimited Threat Rush.
The biggest issue with scenarios like you posted above is Knights Challenge. That encounter REALLY needs a rework because in all truth, its just a cheese move thats going to cause ALOT of tears on the forums. Now its also toggled so a GF can get his moves off, then cancel it.
I agree 100% on the Deter gain being about 16.5% HP lost for 1/2 a bar and 33% for a full unstoppable. This really needs to happen. Makes it level across all playing fields IMO.
Determination should not work off % HP lost. There is no reason to punish a player for choosing to have more HP. Going off percent means you have to take more damage to get just as many unstoppables off. That defeats the point of raising HP for survivability. Same goes for gaining more defense/deflect. Just because a person has defensive stats does not mean they should be able to use it any less.
I disagree. HP pool gives you more basic survivability AND boosts regeneration AND eventually, if you feat for it, Unstoppable recovery.
Unstoppable, on the other hand, is a class mechanic, and should work the same REGARDLESS the build. You can feat to have certain boosts, but, like for every other class, you can't gear to boost your class mechanic.
And the only way to ensure it works the same, is that it works on % of HP lost. Else, a 60k GWF would be able to go unstoppable 20 times, while a 40k GWF can use his class mechanic less times? Only thing influencing a class mechanic should be feats and powers.
As a class mechanic, it should work the same with any build.
Sure thing, btw, is that the current determination gain in module 4 feels too slow or not working properly.
Just as a feedback:
today got into a domination match with other guys. Tried sentinel build, got the impression in domination i could hit for more than in IWD and fight better BUT my team was winning/ dominating so it may be just that i was having an easy time in a team fight. Didn't get into real 1v1s and Godmode and the HRs cold pretty much hit me really hard.
Need to get used to sprint as a defensive move, but i really think it should be more responsive.
Sentinel seems to perfmor better for me in PvP so far. Destroyer just...not reliable. Being so much more squishy, it's difficult to fully unleash it's offensive potential. Could pretty much be a "group" fighter to jump in--->hit hard--->jump out and repeat. Not a brawler, nor a 1v1er. I'd say support DPS and good to finish off enemies.
I never understand the topics about GWF changes and CW changes, in both I see most people claiming that with the new changes they are at a huge disadvantage against the other class. CWs say they have it too hard against the new GWFs and GWFs say they have it very hard against the new CWs. :S
I never understand the topics about GWF changes and CW changes, in both I see most people claiming that with the new changes they are at a huge disadvantage against the other class. CWs say they have it too hard against the new GWFs and GWFs say they have it very hard against the new CWs. :S
CW will, I think, be always the most "useless" class in PVP because for a CC class, each class has immunity dodges. There are no changes to do, it's just a fatality .
I disagree. HP pool gives you more basic survivability AND boosts regeneration AND eventually, if you feat for it, Unstoppable recovery.
Unstoppable, on the other hand, is a class mechanic, and should work the same REGARDLESS the build. You can feat to have certain boosts, but, like for every other class, you can't gear to boost your class mechanic.
And the only way to ensure it works the same, is that it works on % of HP lost. Else, a 60k GWF would be able to go unstoppable 20 times, while a 40k GWF can use his class mechanic less times? Only thing influencing a class mechanic should be feats and powers.
As a class mechanic, it should work the same with any build.
Sure thing, btw, is that the current determination gain in module 4 feels too slow or not working properly.
Just as a feedback:
today got into a domination match with other guys. Tried sentinel build, got the impression in domination i could hit for more than in IWD and fight better BUT my team was winning/ dominating so it may be just that i was having an easy time in a team fight. Didn't get into real 1v1s and Godmode and the HRs cold pretty much hit me really hard.
Need to get used to sprint as a defensive move, but i really think it should be more responsive.
Sentinel seems to perfmor better for me in PvP so far. Destroyer just...not reliable. Being so much more squishy, it's difficult to fully unleash it's offensive potential. Could pretty much be a "group" fighter to jump in--->hit hard--->jump out and repeat. Not a brawler, nor a 1v1er. I'd say support DPS and good to finish off enemies.
Determination should not work off % HP lost. There is no reason to punish a player for choosing to have more HP. Going off percent means you have to take more damage to get just as many unstoppables off. That defeats the point of raising HP for survivability. Same goes for gaining more defense/deflect. Just because a person has defensive stats does not mean they should be able to use it any less.
Honestly, it should. A GWF should NOT be able to spam unstoppable after losing only 5% of his health in pvp.
Due to the new features added for the "Mark", the Swordmaster paragon seems to be in disadvantage in comparison with the Iron Vanguard, being IV you are able to Mark your enemies with an At-Will (Threatening Rush) this allow you to keep an AoE At-Will (Wicked Strike) or use single target dps (Sure Strike) according to the fight also keeping 3 offensive Encounters, however, if you are a SM and you want to use the Mark, you have to give up an offensive encounter and use Daring Shout which deals zero damage unless feated and considering how good might be the Daring Shout, we don't need unstoppable gain because (specially Destroyers due to the capstone) in the new areas the enemies hits really hard or even in the old ones like Castle Never, we just need to run toward a group, receive some damage and the bar is full, the mark is good now obviously but the extra damage that we gain doesn't make up the loss of an offensive encounter and even if it does it's better to play IV and spread the mark with TR + 3 offensive encounters. I don't count with the IBS mark because you need to land a killing blow, clearing trash means that most mobs are already close to death so the group doesn't get the whole benefit, doesn't work when fighting bosses without mobs like Fulminorax, Valindra, etc.
Suggestion: Mighty Leap would be a good option for marking opponents after the impact, works for both paragons, can be used in both offensive and defensive ways also granting a better mobility.
I would also like to take into consideration the daily Slam which is supposed to be an Utility skill but unfortunately isn't good enough even feated, if this daily is also able to mark the enemies around the GWF upon his activation, that would be real utility for the group where the GWF is giving up Spinning Strike (heavy AoE dmg) for Slam in order to increase the overall group damage.
i think Weapon Master Strike would be best option for SM marking ability
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
i think Weapon Master Strike would be best option for SM marking ability
Please stop spamming the Official Feedback Thread. I ignored your once per day comment for a long time but enough is enough. There's no need to spam the same idea as if they didn't hear you the first twenty times. The ball is in their court and spamming it won't help your suggestion at all.
I understand this is in response to another person's feedback but you should be familiar with the boy who cried wolf. Besides, please avoid responding to other people's feedback.
Can you please take a look at the damage this power deals to players?
On Preview I got 1-hit-killed as a CW through this power by 28k (crit) and I was with Grim gear. When I went with my Cleric in a more modest PvP gear I received 30k damage from it.
i igree.my list of nerfs:
ibs, all sm, reaping strike, slam, punishing charge and battle fury.
really, see all buffs at cw Paragon and see sm forgotten since the beta is really offensive.
Can you please take a look at the damage this power deals to players?
On Preview I got 1-hit-killed as a CW through this power by 28k (crit) and I was with Grim gear. When I went with my Cleric in a more modest PvP gear I received 30k damage from it.
That GWF probably got really lucky. If you look at the newest GWF videos, you'll see that it only hits like a wet noodle.
Those with a good Deflection greatly reduces this damage, and some CWs/DCs in the videos were using Shield/BiS.
And...so? Just to clarify: right now, if build correctly any class get hit for much less than that. Your shield got buffed for a reason: give you a PvP defensive option to increase survivability.
I fought a 15k CW and another GWF did the same, and there were not "30k hits" on IBS.
Quite frankly, after all the nerfs GWFs got, asking for a IBS damage nerf...are you serious? Take a look at you build, post it here along with your HP, stats, gear and all cause right now you're the only one complaining about IBS hitting "too hard" on preview.
Not meant to be rude, but if you want more nerfs on Mod4 GWF, then it's a L2P issue.
Or, either, you got IBS from prone after a FLS, but it got fixed and FLS is now a stun. Seriously, GWFs got nerfed enough. Now, if you still have issues, it's your turn to learn how to fight them/ build your class...
and post a log ... it's really annoying to have to discuss not proven absurds like "5sec roar", etc..
I never talk about another class without having a "document in hands" ... ahah
for the record... you see the anvil of doom?
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited August 2014
Guys there is no need for this thread any more cuz i know GWF is viable vs any class now .
We need to work if we want to kill somone but its fine ,not immortal or dominant but it is balanced .
Since when did that change? Also, if there is a small difference, then SM needs a damage buff since, as germmanic quoted, IV is for medium damage/high tanking and SM is for high damage/medium tanking. So, if the damage is about the same, why bother with SM? IV is much more useful for most scenarios.
I am yet to test this week's changes. That said, can you not click and mark a second target with TR (or can you only have one target marked at all times using TR)? Also, if there is a small difference, does it favor IV or SM?
I'd agree that DS may be a better marking skill than TR (with such limitations), with its ability to provide additional defense buff and determination gain, but it having such a high CD and not being able to deal damage makes it less viable for SM/Destroyers.
In fact, I'd prefer not having any marks on WMS or even Steel Blitz so that SM/Destroyers are not pigeonholed into the same role/mechanics as IV. What I would rather see is a buff to WMS via the Destroyer "Staying Power" feat such as follows:
Suggestion:
Staying Power:Weapon Master's Strike now also reduces your target Mitigation to your Encounter powers 4/8/12/16/20% (up from 2/4/6/8/10%)
Since it is a T2 feat, it would be accessible to Sentinels and Instigators as well, but players would have to make an active choice investing into this feat (thereby, making sacrifices elsewhere).
to get staying power feat u need to spend 10 points in destro tree while IV get that bonus for free from TR
to get staying power feat u need to spend 10 points in destro tree while IV get that bonus for free from TR
I was speaking from the SM/Destroyer perspective, which I felt should have the highest damage (sacrificing its defenses with the current Unstoppable nerf) . And you would be getting Great Weapon focus or Deep gash, in all probability, wouldn't you?
Comments
Not soo good idea why ?
What if i dont want to mark as GWF destroyer .
Not all GWF born with 19k GS and perfect enchants
Sprint gives CC immunity DR and run speed = Gap Closer / Immunities!
Unstoppable gives attack speed, CC immunity, Healing, Determination gain = Gap Closer / Immunities!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
The GF also only blocks 80% of damage which means he WILL ALWAYS be losing HP. Even with a guard that never ends we will be losing HP.
And if we are honest, as the TANK the GF should have the largest HP pool, highest DR and highest deflection of all the classes. I do not understand why players of the other classes demand the level of tankiness of a class that carries a shield and wears full plate armour.
The biggest mistake they made was swapping paths. The GWF should have gotten its own 2nd paragon path that focused on AOE damage (not prones) and a gap closer while the GF should have gotten its own single target path, the all of this could have been avoided.
that video show how much GWF has been nerfed not being able to do anything in close combat. and as u said without using major spells. and GWF used daily and still died while CW killed him with encounters only.
Sprint.. slower stamina regeneration.
Unstoppable gives attack speed only for at-wills, Healing 2,5% (by HD) only with feats, Determination gain?!.
Dead🔪A CW (ranged class wearing a robe) is FACETANKING a GWF, DPS melee class with mail armor, using frost rays and shield only.
A CW facetanking a GWF in melee range should get DESTROYED, if we talk about balance.
Context is important.
Feedback:
Fix devastating critical. It is not giving the 15% added crit severity on preview.
Give one prone to GWFs. EVERY class can prone, except us. Does not make sense. At all.
Make sprint more responsive to bring it in line with other dodge moves. It's not responsive, delayed, rubberbanded sometimes. Not reliable. Plus, increase stamina base regeneration and, if you really want it in line with other dodges, increase damage resistance.
Need faster determination gain, make it 50% determination for 15% HP lost, full bar for 33% HP lost. Right now it's full bar for 50% (!!) HP lost. Not viable, expecially with buffs to other classes.
and an 80k dmg by a GF and GWF can only do than much dmg with img in destroyer path with buffs provided by other classes. GF as sand alone doin more dmg than a GWF with buffs.
Sprint allows now 7 small bursts the lenght of a HR dodge, with all stamina boons and mobility you can get from feats and boons. HRs are a RANGED CLASS and have 5 of these dodges. For example.
This means the GWF must use his 7 charges to close the huge gap HRs/ CWs can attack you from for the CC immunity to be useful. Then, once he reaches the HR/CW, he must have still 5 bursts to chase the dodging HR/ CW. And some more to use it for defense.
With some simple math, it's not enough.
Uh, before you talk to me about threat rush 3 charges and punishing charge: HRs have, to say, marauders excape, and CWs still have push, for example, and the % chance to repel hitting enemy (don't remember the name). Plus CW stamina regenerates much faster, allwoing them to teleport faster.
Also: Unstoppable now activates after you lose a big chunk of HP. 50% HP lost to have 8 seconds unstoppable. It does not give determination gain (it consumes determination. Where do you get such weird infos??), the healing is nerfed to a 2,5% HP healed from unstoppable IF you feat for it. Which means you lose 50% HP, you get back 2,5%. Wow. Attack speed is on at-wills like sure strike, decreases the damage from at-wills and is not applied to encounters (your encounters are not faster. Or at least, it's not noticeable).
Your theorycrafting is wrong. I don't know how to explain it to you again...plus, i don't know where you get your infos, but you say a lot of false stuff about what a GWF can do...Try to play one please.
Well are you talking Destroyer or GWF? Cause that makes a difference and also, the new 20% mark isnt on the PTR yet - so we dont know that part either.
I would say that a Dest GWF (once mark is fixed on PTR) will still hit harder with say IBS than a GFs encounters. But a GF has alot more encounters that hit harder than GWFs encounters. Like a GF can have multiple encounters with high damage, while a GWF really only has IBS.
Also GFs can still prone via Bull Charge, while GWFs cant. GFs have more "gap closers" as well, with unlimited Threat Rush.
The biggest issue with scenarios like you posted above is Knights Challenge. That encounter REALLY needs a rework because in all truth, its just a cheese move thats going to cause ALOT of tears on the forums. Now its also toggled so a GF can get his moves off, then cancel it.
I agree 100% on the Deter gain being about 16.5% HP lost for 1/2 a bar and 33% for a full unstoppable. This really needs to happen. Makes it level across all playing fields IMO.
I disagree. HP pool gives you more basic survivability AND boosts regeneration AND eventually, if you feat for it, Unstoppable recovery.
Unstoppable, on the other hand, is a class mechanic, and should work the same REGARDLESS the build. You can feat to have certain boosts, but, like for every other class, you can't gear to boost your class mechanic.
And the only way to ensure it works the same, is that it works on % of HP lost. Else, a 60k GWF would be able to go unstoppable 20 times, while a 40k GWF can use his class mechanic less times? Only thing influencing a class mechanic should be feats and powers.
As a class mechanic, it should work the same with any build.
Sure thing, btw, is that the current determination gain in module 4 feels too slow or not working properly.
Just as a feedback:
today got into a domination match with other guys. Tried sentinel build, got the impression in domination i could hit for more than in IWD and fight better BUT my team was winning/ dominating so it may be just that i was having an easy time in a team fight. Didn't get into real 1v1s and Godmode and the HRs cold pretty much hit me really hard.
Need to get used to sprint as a defensive move, but i really think it should be more responsive.
Sentinel seems to perfmor better for me in PvP so far. Destroyer just...not reliable. Being so much more squishy, it's difficult to fully unleash it's offensive potential. Could pretty much be a "group" fighter to jump in--->hit hard--->jump out and repeat. Not a brawler, nor a 1v1er. I'd say support DPS and good to finish off enemies.
CW will, I think, be always the most "useless" class in PVP because for a CC class, each class has immunity dodges. There are no changes to do, it's just a fatality
so you feel the power of INTIMIDATION FEAT
Honestly, it should. A GWF should NOT be able to spam unstoppable after losing only 5% of his health in pvp.
exactly the reason i don't use 4-piece grim/profound and stick with 2x 2/4-set or heroic duelist.
i think Weapon Master Strike would be best option for SM marking ability
Please stop spamming the Official Feedback Thread. I ignored your once per day comment for a long time but enough is enough. There's no need to spam the same idea as if they didn't hear you the first twenty times. The ball is in their court and spamming it won't help your suggestion at all.
I understand this is in response to another person's feedback but you should be familiar with the boy who cried wolf. Besides, please avoid responding to other people's feedback.
i igree.my list of nerfs:
ibs, all sm, reaping strike, slam, punishing charge and battle fury.
really, see all buffs at cw Paragon and see sm forgotten since the beta is really offensive.
why gwf may not have the same treatment?
That GWF probably got really lucky. If you look at the newest GWF videos, you'll see that it only hits like a wet noodle.
Those with a good Deflection greatly reduces this damage, and some CWs/DCs in the videos were using Shield/BiS.
And...so? Just to clarify: right now, if build correctly any class get hit for much less than that. Your shield got buffed for a reason: give you a PvP defensive option to increase survivability.
I fought a 15k CW and another GWF did the same, and there were not "30k hits" on IBS.
Quite frankly, after all the nerfs GWFs got, asking for a IBS damage nerf...are you serious? Take a look at you build, post it here along with your HP, stats, gear and all cause right now you're the only one complaining about IBS hitting "too hard" on preview.
Not meant to be rude, but if you want more nerfs on Mod4 GWF, then it's a L2P issue.
Or, either, you got IBS from prone after a FLS, but it got fixed and FLS is now a stun. Seriously, GWFs got nerfed enough. Now, if you still have issues, it's your turn to learn how to fight them/ build your class...
I never talk about another class without having a "document in hands" ... ahah
for the record... you see the anvil of doom?
We need to work if we want to kill somone but its fine ,not immortal or dominant but it is balanced .
Since when did that change? Also, if there is a small difference, then SM needs a damage buff since, as germmanic quoted, IV is for medium damage/high tanking and SM is for high damage/medium tanking. So, if the damage is about the same, why bother with SM? IV is much more useful for most scenarios.
to get staying power feat u need to spend 10 points in destro tree while IV get that bonus for free from TR
I was speaking from the SM/Destroyer perspective, which I felt should have the highest damage (sacrificing its defenses with the current Unstoppable nerf) . And you would be getting Great Weapon focus or Deep gash, in all probability, wouldn't you?