just a reminder that the devs are looking for constructive feedback from actual test time on the preview server... not feedback about someone else's testing or your first impression of the patch notes.
also, threats to quit and overall unproductive posts will be canned.
please remember that these changes are on the preview server so you can test it and give your respectful and constructive feedback. you won't convince anyone to lean to your point of view with insults, antagonism or an angry star-filled post. we want what you want, but you have to follow the forum guidelines, please.
do NOT reply to this message. if you want to discuss forum rules, send me a PM. thanks.
I'd like to throw in some suggestions, while we're at it.
Dex should grant crit rate, instead of deflection and Con should grant deflection, additional to the current stats. (makes more sense to also have the "privilege" of getting at least some crit from stats)
Id rather like to see ARP moved to Con and Dex give deflection AND Crit
Leave the blocking - system as it is on live but decrease the guard depletion by 100-200% and scrap the new one entirely. Increase the cone area in which we're able to block (our flanks tend to be too open).
Either massively buff the one on live, or DOUBLE the stamina pool for the on on PTR
Speed up the animations of cleave, knight's challenge, crushing surge, griffon's wrath (it is still too slow), tide of iron. (along with the other countless, slowpoke animation skills.)
I think I would rather have these attacks hit harder than faster..
Aggravating strike should have the "stepping forward" animation cut out, because all it does is exposing our flanks to the target we initially tried to hit. (this would give us better survivability, especially in pvp)
Shield slam should have a small knockback applied, in order to create more space for us to set things up (shields tend to push/move targets if one gets hit by a bash).
Mark, should increase OUR damage, not the damage of our party (we are the ones in need of more damage and not the already hard hitting rest of the classes)
Agreed, AND mark should be able to be applied defensively on a teammate for boosted DR
Fix the many bugs of our knight's challenge skill. (detailed description in a thread i created, link is provided on the 2nd page of this thread)
Agreed, this needs a fix.
Anvil of doom should have it's double damage bonus apply at 35-40% hp. (GWF can just 1 hit mobs at that percentage anyway, aswell as other classes are able to, rendering our only real damage skill nearly useless)
Agreed - 25% is too low for it to be really useful.
Raise our weapon damage or give our shields additional weapon damage, just like off-hands for rogues do (~630. weapon damage in the current meta, really doesn't cut it).
Again agreed. I dont know about shields having more damage, but atleast give GFs damage in the range of CW/DCs
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I could go on and on with suggestions, but i think this sums about up, what's wrong with this class.
Whats funny - to the person from Enemy Team saying to stop listening to me, is that most of the above I have brought up several times in several places. But oh well.
We can all agree on one thing: The BLOCK on the PTR sucks.
Many people have suggested ideas, personally I think a stamina meter CAN work, it just needs to be done properly. It needs to block 100% of damage, and it needs to have a base duration of about 5-6 seconds. This will then boost that at max capacity to about 9-10 seconds.
It also needs a better re-charge time. I think thats what is making it feel like garbage... You block for 5 seconds - which is NOTHING, then spend eternity waiting for block.
I really believe, that the meter should not deplete just from raising the shield. It does not make sense if it does. Like i already said, a timed gate of 4-6 seconds is the worst thing to suggest. We need the ability to be able to block whenever we want, or else stealth will be a problem, sprint will be a problem, teleport will be a problem, dodging will be a problem even the DC's slide will be a problem because said skills, give the ones using them time. And time regarding the current block depletion is crucial.
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So yeah, my opinion still stands. Scrap the new block mechanic and let us use a modified version of the current one. Preferably with a guard meter depletion decrease of 200%. This would instantaneously solve 70% of our problems and is easy to implement on top of that.
Prones were not effected by tenacity which is the main reason they switched to stuns.
On the subject of buff the DPS as the answer to the GF...
They are a tank . Not every class should be a DPS class. The damage output could use a slight buff IMO but they will not and should not turn into the new GWFs. Ideally they should just be the annoying hard to kill class and the features which increase team survivability and DPS is much better than further pushing the DPS race meta nonsense.
I agree with you here. But I then have to ask the question. If you think we are a tank, why have you made us more squishy than a TR, GWF, and literally twice as squishy as a HR?
If you say we are a tank, why do GWF's get 10k HP up on us with little to no effort, CW's can get 35-37k hp, yet you say the tank that we are struggle to top 38-40k without major major major draw backs.
- If you want to increase team survivability, fix the 10% more damage, and make it 15% more damage and 10% more DR vs marked targets
- Remove the Defense soft cap and make it a linear scale! Every single armor set you have given us puts as at the soft cap, and since our deflection is less than TR's, HR's, GWF's, you idea of a tank, is to have to lower hp, deflection, resistance?
I'm not trying to be a smart ****, I am just using a little sarcasm to prove the point. If you truly believe what you say, then why have you neglected to make us the tank that you so truly believe we are?
You hate the must use moves? - GWF's, have like 3-4 moves after this patch, I couldn't tell you. TR's have like 3-4 moves, same for dailies and class features. It is the result of numerous nerfs to oblivion. For the Guardian we have so many moves with potential you just have them at the point to where there is no benefit to using them whatsoever.
Knee Breaker - You guys got close, it semi slows them, does a mediocre at best dot, but it can miss, and it really doesn't lunge at them to do it at all. It's damage is maybe 2/3's of what it should be, and the dot should be twice as long. This would add some viable weapon enchants to the build as well as give the GF their own dot.
Griffon's Wrath - Again, you guys got close but still no cigar. The ability is cool, but the stun is not long enough to chain the moves together, the animation is too long and clanky to set up with the GF's now arguably having only one prone left that can do a mixture of ten different things if you hit the same guy with it (bull charge). Take the charge use down 3 seconds, and increase the stun, or since you hate control, increase it's speed so we can get the 3 hit and benefit from 2 hits upon rapid succession.
Guarded Assault - Increase this to 5-8% reflect to pair it with briartwine so we can actually get some reflect going, granted we know the majority of it will be mitigated, we need something to hurt people if we are actually going to tank.
Armor Effectiveness Feat - make it 25%, 15% is unnoticeable, Increase Deflect chance by 10% not just 5, GF's have horrrrrrible Deflect, and this would also add to the "tank" you say you believe in.
Trample the Fallen - Targets when marked receive a DOT rather than a damage % increase. So now, we can mark and DOT those CW's and HR's who stand off point while we cap and cut us down in a matter of seconds.
Lunging Strike- Decrease its range, but add a 1/2 second stun/interrupt. (Currently, you guys have absolutely nothing to counter the perm TR that YOU created. As aside from a well guessed FS, which is a stun now so it won't work, GF's can do nothing to these guys). As soon as stealth pops they shadow strike then off they go, if LS was made to interrupt w/out having to take the feat in the tree, and then you replace that feat with say one that more benefits the tank role, it would be nice).
Bull Charge- Make this what it used to be. A high flying no stun, no root, PRONE! We are node holders, and in the current meta where a contested point gains zero rather than a slower tick for the team who has capped it. As the tank, we need a way to knock these guys off. As I mentioned before, BC is random, it basically acts like a stun, sometimes a prone, and sometimes they go flying. Sure when you realize what makes them go flying you can abuse it and get the old Bull Charge. But still, we can't knock people off anymore. And once FS is nerfed to a stun which really needs reverted back to Mod 1 for GF's, not the GWF's - The GF will essentially not be able to knock people off to get a few points to bleed.
Gear Sets - Please quit making every set have the same bonus, but just slighty different stats. It takes away all creativity. We can all ready only use 1 maybe 2 armor enchants max, and only 1 weapon enchant. I know you guys are very confused with where to take hte guardian as its gear sets have such random allocation of stats. HR's stats are perfectly placed on their gear, same as GWF. But Guardians, it is like you guys hit the random button to assign stats for sets.
DEFLECTION - HOOK US UP, we all ready have some of the lowest deflection of any class on the game, and if you want us to start acting like tanks, (not in pve, pve is so easy you don't need them) - but in pvp, then give it to us. DEFENSE- Take off the soft cap, or lower the defense and give us other abilities. RECOVERY - Increase the recovery on all of the sets, we are a class that lives and dies by our daily as our other powers are so sub par, so if that is the case, and you want us to be tank, we will all be using Terrifying and SOS, Terrifying to inturrupt the new horrible unstoppable, and SOS to buy us time to recover, or to hurt anyone who is dumb enough to attack Armor Pen - Put this on our dang sets, we have to work 10x harder for damage, and we still don't do THAT much in comparison. That being said, we are currently some of the worst tanks, so if you do change us to fit your idea of a tank then I remove this CRITICAL STRIKE- total rework. We put 3x into this stat and get 1/2 of what another class gets. Regardless, tank or not, a critical strike is a must have no matter how tank we are. It needs to be on more gear sets, and we need an ability to boost this. Especially now that we can no longer prone enemies.
- So there you have it, I could rant all day, but this is primarily as a PVP player who used to do PVE - got bored with bugging out dungeons and not being needed as GF as the CNdraco wings could knock me off, and then you fixed it a year later when no one does CN but anyway.......... If you took these into consideration, you would get a lot more variety in GF's. The protector tree I left out because while it has massive potential, the feat rework that it would need would not be taken lightly by the dev's and despite all the testing I've done I doubt they would get it right. But anyway, just a few ideas.
Just tested out the new block mechanism on preview server.
​​Constructive feedback:
My build is an Iron Vanguard, Tactician GF
This change to the block mechanic has made solo PvE incredibly hard. My character has always been based on soaking up damage, this is now impossible. I have never hit particularly hard which didn't bother me as long as I could defend myself. Going from having a guard that has to be broken to a function that doesnt block fully and drains while in use makes made my build unplayable. Hopefully this is work in progress though.
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zhaofuoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 129Bounty Hunter
A tank that deflects? Makes no sense. Also, Constitution raising deflection chance? Also makes no sense.
Sounds nice, but makes no sense.
Con that gives armor penetration - Makes no sense right? but the GWF have it, so try to make sense out of it and let me know what you found out. People like this who blabbers their intellect without even thinking of the other constructive criticism makes me puke.
Back to the Topic
BLOCK:
Right now i am using the profound set that increase the block meter/stamina by 30% - basically by holding down my block it depletes my stamina within 4.47s (approximately) before it goes down to 0% - wherein in the old block mechanic, i can hold it indefinitely as long as nobody attacks me.
The stamina block is a good idea indeed but what others has mentioned the implementation is poor - you should consider that we are now taking 80% damage with our block now in preview compared to the one we have at the moment in live but with this changes you are basically downgrading the block mechanic.
it seems like the control abilities is going through block - a wolf was able to use his bite attack on me and drag me like a piece of paper even though i was blocking it
Threat Rush
I have been using TR in PVE to mark targets consistently(since mark dissapear immediately after a mob hit you, so by putting a charge on to this you are limiting our playsytle not just in PVE but also in PVP)
PVP use - this is the one of the best mobility move we have aside from lunging strike, by putting 3 charges on it you are basically making us walk to our opponent while they Kite us. beside this was not OP in the hands of a GF before - only reason why we are getting this change in TR is because of the GWF abusing it which they do not deserve our paragon in the first place
Frontline Surge
Again this move was nerf mainly because of the paragon switch. this is the only thing that is making us relevant in PVP. by knocking back our opponent off the node using prones.
Shield Talent
I use this feat when i was doing some test in the stamina depletion, it hardly does anything from the original 4.47 i recorded without the shield talent - it just barely move to 4.54 seconds at level 3 <-- again this is approximately since i have been timing it
Threat
This change is been un-called for, we already have enough threat to glue those mob to us so i dont see why increasing this will help us but i'll take it
CON increase of HP
I feel this is still a little bit low - if you are increasing our threat and downgrading our block meter then the HP is the only thing we have left yet i still feel that the 4% increase is still to small. can you try to up this by 5% or 6%.
Marked targets provides combat advantage to allies
why is our allies only getting this increase, we need those increase damage but yet again just like KC we are excluded from the Bonus, can you stop excluding us from the bonus and make it look like we are a buff pet - might as well name us the Guardian buffer pet <-- yes i have test this and someone only "allies" not including you are benefiting from this
-Suggeestions
Block - Dramatically increase the duration of block by lower the depletion rate of our stamina and remove the 80% damage rate.
Threat Rush - please for the love of god don't put the 3 charge on TR(keep the old one), a rouge dagger throw has around 9 stocks and regenerates around 3 sec per dagger. let us keep the old one - we do not deserve this nerf in our at-will in the first place
Frontline Surge - Same as above we do not deserve this nerf from our original power as it was not OP when we are using it and this is the only individuality we have from the rest of the class to begin with
As many players have reported the new block is the worst implementation of the general idea of what the GF's community was looking for. Right now the live version is many times better that what the suppose "improvement version" that is on preview. Plus Dev's you basically put a big sign on GF's that say "PLEASE KILL ME WHEN I CAST ENFORCED THREAD", with our current stuff it was a hard task to stay alive with 8 mobs, now with 20 without anyway to mitigate/handle all the incoming damage enforced thread just turn out into a GF's dead sentence. Also thread was one of the less important problems for gf's, your solution basically just broke up the thread table and it may turn out into many bugs cause the up/down jumps than gf's could generate cause of the new mark mechanics.
1. What the gf's community was looking for when saying a stamina based guard not based on damage was that our shield should not be drained so fast cause each 18% of guard was equal to ~4k hp, and basically taking hits from CW/HR/TR/GWF dps cannons builds just break our guard almost in an instant, and when gf's guard is down, we just die like any mob in pve, what we was looking for is that our guard should last a flat time no matter how many hits they throw on us, and that time should be increased by stats/armor set bonus/boons, that guard should be drained when WE ARE HITTED not because we just raise our shield up.
2. Your approach to fix thread can turn in the future to endless bugs, up and down jumps on thread table that gf will create cause of the new hard taunt that mark will produce, i posted my idea of how you could solve thread/aggro problems over GF's unofficial thread, and it was as simple as make aggro not so heavy dependent on mark, how much you think a mark will last apart from the one on tab, 2 secs at MAX if we are lucky, my idea was to turn out enhanced mark passive ability into a passive aggro generator that doesnt depend on mark, and on the top of that to gives GF's more AoE encounters, so far we got ET, FLS if mobs are in front of us and that's it, tanks needs AoE in other to keep mobs busy on them and keep aggro on them while their aggro skills are on cd. Also i suggestd that ET mark should be a temporary special one that only GF's can generate.
3. GF's need DAMAGE, let me say it again, GF's NEED MORE DAMAGE, damage is one of the most used aggro builders, and the main problem with gf's is that we got the LOWEST WEAPON DAMAGE OF THE GAME and since all is based in our weapon damage, everything is linked to it, more damage means we can build more aggro while hitting, our encounters will gonna hit harder and build more aggro, being a tank doesnt mean that you should hit like a wet noodle, being a tanks means that you have to focus on keep mobs on you so your other teammates can focus on their job. On the same topic GF should not being penalized as the only class with no access to critical, critical gives other classes some bonuses and bring some utility to the whole party, why gf's cant have it?
4. Nice finally you increase ET target cap to 20, but how i can handle it if my HP increase is barely minimal (thanks for that, is around 3-5K hp), my DR still 44-53% my deflect is around 15-22%, not gonna happen, in the same way you increase the amount of mobs that we taunt we need ways to handle all that incoming damage before we blame the cleric, healing in this game is not designed to one skill heal you 20k HP with 6sec CD, the whole idea of getting more mobs on us also include a way to handle them, aka more DR, deflect, regen, temporary HP, lifesteal, deflect. Give gf's under their feat trees bonuses based on how many mobs we have on us.
5. Our armor sets still untouched, really, GF's need other stats that just defense over defense over defense that is hitting on high DR values, our useless feats needs to be reworked, we should be the class with the highest deflect chance of the game, not the one that have to make huge tradeoffs to get close to 25-30%.
6. Please GF's should not being penalized cause the big mistake you did on the past sharing IV with GWF, TR is one of the main tools of GF's to compesate our lack of mobility, keep the nerf if you want to GWF's
I really believe, that the meter should not deplete just from raising the shield. It does not make sense if it does. Like i already said, a timed gate of 4-6 seconds is the worst thing to suggest. We need the ability to be able to block whenever we want, or else stealth will be a problem, sprint will be a problem, teleport will be a problem, dodging will be a problem even the DC's slide will be a problem because said skills, give the ones using them time. And time regarding the current block depletion is crucial.
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So yeah, my opinion still stands. Scrap the new block mechanic and let us use a modified version of the current one. Preferably with a guard meter depletion decrease of 200%. This would instantaneously solve 70% of our problems and is easy to implement on top of that.
Im fine with this, although I think to be fair I would make block meter a "damage pool" you can absorb IDK what a fair number would be, 10k?
what we was looking for is that our guard should last a flat time no matter how many hits they throw on us, and that time should be increased by stats/armor set bonus/boons, that guard should be drained when WE ARE HITTED not because we just raise our shield up.
This precisely. That its a function of time under attack NOT how many attacks, but also not just based on time blocking where you can effectively stand still and drain block with no combat...
This has been poorly represented in the current version on PTR not only in concept but duration as well.
Im fine with this, although I think to be fair I would make block meter a "damage pool" you can absorb IDK what a fair number would be, 10k?
10k is one skill. Even a DC can hit for that much. I like my suggestion better, to be honest. A flat depletion decrease of 200% along with the current system we use on live and the thing is perfect. So we'd have 3 times as much guard meter and then we would actually be able to take more than 2-3 bigger hits, without being able to survive infinitely. (just a few seconds, longer)
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I am also not in favor of the timed block - gates, as i mentioned before. Blocking has to be available without depletion, at all times. Because, we have no real reliable form of anti cc, our movement is beyond slow, plus as i mentioned, tying it to a timer would grant other classes too many advantages on us, when in fact blocking should be OUR advantage and not a burden as it is on PTS.
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nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
Bug: Guarding Guarding does not reduce movement speed
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checkmatein3Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 525Arc User
edited June 2014
After testing the current GF guard mechanism in preview, I can say unreservedly that if left unchanged, the GF will be even weaker. The current version is a nerf, not a buff. Let me explain.
OLD GUARD METER was based on damage taken, and it blocked all damage. So, until you took damage, the GM would not decrease, and you were (mostly) preserved from attacks. The old guard meter had the function of keeping the immobile and non-dps GF kinda safe in big mobs and in PvP. The old guard meter could annoy PvP by standing on a point and using guard meter/regen to pull two opposing team members, so that your PvP could have an advantage. The more the guard meter, the more time you might create and advantage ( along with skills of course). The raising of the guard meter and the breaking of the guard meter were problematic, but the GM itself offset some of the disadvantage.
NEW GUARD METER: It is based on time in guard...period. If you go into guard before an enemy attacks, tough. You just drained your stamina. Stamina drains and blocks 80%. Not a bad idea, but it means the GF is taking damage in guard no matter what. Okay. Let me assume that I will trade off 20% damage for longer guard. NOPE! You nerfed the time of the Guard Meter. With STR at 25, 15% power buff, 5% stamina regen, 5% artifact stamina regen, Sharandar boon for 10% regen, I only get about 5 seconds of guard, and it takes about 10 seconds for stamina to regenerate. Yes! It takes 2x as long to regenerate. So, I get less time in guard than before (even one based on damage), I take damage in guard, and it takes just as long to regenerate stamina as it did guard before (perhaps a little faster since there is no guard breaking that I saw). Basically, the devs seemed to want to increase the guarding of the GF with hitpoints to make it more of a tank. Instead, the current timer ticker is too fast. And, because you are changing the At-Will threatening rush because of GWFs who spam it in PvP, the GF is even less mobile. So, I can just stand there in guard for 5 seconds and die, because I cannot move as before.
Please reconsider the stamina based guard meter, or change the timer!! Please! With the initial information, I was actually considering the Protector path, because it may be very beneficial to boost the meter to be more impervious. However, a 10% reduction to 5 seconds is not worth the path. And the Armor of Bahamut's feat of 10% less damage with Stamina less than 35% will be a seesaw effect. 1.66 seconds of 10% less damage, and then no guard, and I am open to all attacks (still with 10% less damage). That does not sound good. I would rather have 100% damage reduction with the old guard meter to pot or move or do something.
It seems the whole intent of this new guard is to have the player not use guard all the time, to be more selective, to be reactive in guard, rather than proactive. And you changed the time we can get into guard to perhaps reflect that idea. However, let me give my opinion about that.
FIRST, with the different computer speeds that link to the game and utilize it, such a fine style of play may be impossible for some people. Removal of the proactive element makes this class almost unplayable for some who have older processors.
SECOND, a reactive tank seems oxymoronic. A tank is not a light assault vehicle that skits around. It takes up space, absorbs damage, and says come at me. But, the design of the new guard meter is like putting the armor of the tank on the ground and telling the crew to assemble armor when the bomb comes. That is not what tanks do. They either are tanks or not. With the old guard meter, players could be proactive with the GF. I do not mean lazy, I mean proactive. Because of the stance and payoff, going into guard signalled your team and the other team your intentions to defend. The new guard does not allow this as it drains too quickly. And the defense is less than the original GM anyway...
THIRD, in PvE, the GF will be useless in big mobs. In PvP, going toe-to-toe with a permastealth TR or uber HR to clog up a point is worthless. The guard drains to fast. The TR will just wait for stamina to drain. Before, the TR had to flurry to take down the guard. Now, it just needs to hit-and-wait. Then hit when no guard. The GF will lose value in PvP and PvE (if that were possible).
I can understand why Threatening Rush would be turned into a limited charge on a GWF, but on a GF it is uncalled for. We are the least mobile of all the classes and along with Lunging Strike, which is already on cooldown, Threatening Rush was the one sure fire way of repositioning ourselves. It is also a core tool in us drawing threat. If my Lunging Strike is on cooldown and I see a monster harassing one of my squishies, I can Threatening Rush to said monster and pull it off of my squishy. We cannot ''exploit'' it like a GWF, so Threatening Rush needs to be looked at from a GFs perspective. If you cannot offer two versions of the power - charge on GWF, no charge on GF - then allow the GF to reduce its recharge time by 50% through one of our feats. But make sure this is an Heroic feat so all 3 paragons can get to it. This is one of the Iron Vanguard Guardian Fighter's core utility powers.
Feedback: Block
I love the idea of a stamina bar, but I don't think it has been implemented in the best possible way. With Shield Talent active (3 points) I get 5 seconds of block and those 5 seconds drain out of combat. If I wear my 4/4 Profound PVP gear it increase to just under 7 seconds, which again is not that much. In combat I can block one attack, even an at-will, and end up with a broken guard. Block duration is too low and the speed at which it drains is too fast. A smart opponent in PVP will just sandbag us into wasting our guard as they now no longer need to hit it to break it yet it will still drain as fast as before.
My second gripe is, our block only absorbs 80% of damage. This does not make sense. It is a solid piece of steel we are raising in front of us. Other classes can sprint away from or dodge out of the danger zone and take zero damage yet we are forced to sit in the danger zone while being unable to negate 100% of the incoming damage.
Overall the new guard concept is a step in the right direction, but it needs to be looked at.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
Bug Armor Specialization still does not work
Strength focus does nothing for our strength
Knights challenge is still extremely buggy and the delay makes the skill unusable. And also a lot of time the skill goes gray for minutes at a time and i have to re slot it in.
Feedback The nerf to our guard is unneeded. We should be able to keep our guard the way it is. now it is tooo weak and we lose stamina way too quickly and i am protector spec.
Also i didnt know that guardian fighters had a hole in their shield? When we block it should show "block". The 80% damage immunity makes use extremely squishy now.
The changes to our guard meter was a huge nerf and the nerf to iron vanguard because of great weapon fighters have made us sooooooo weak now it makes me question if you are trying to buff or nerf us.
I think a timer based guard is a good idea, before a single duelist flurry would burn it completely. but the timer needs to be longer, or at least just start depleting staming once you're hit. (even if you're hit just once)
Of all these changes, I only consider the ++HP from CON is the buff, anything else is a nerf. Threat generation has never been a problem to me in dungeon run, and the new BLOCK mechanic is awful. And the worst of all is Threatening Rush's nerf, omg..Rush has been a crucial part of my playstyle since beta. Rush increases my mobility in PvE and PvP. Please just because GWF's Threatening Rush has been OP since mod 2 doesnt mean our Rush is the same.
I believe the best compromise on the block issue. Is to keep it as a stamina based time system. But have it be reduced only when actually taking damage.
I think a timer based guard is a good idea, before a single duelist flurry would burn it completely. but the timer needs to be longer, or at least just start depleting staming once you're hit. (even if you're hit just once)
This is the only solution I can see that would make a "Timed" guard at least feasible. It would basically work like block does now, but it would be useful for blocking rapid successive hits such as from a TR's DF. I still do not like the idea, and I feel the original mechanic buffed up a little is a far better solution. BUT if we are going to go down the road of a timed block, I think this is the only way it could work.
Enemy Team
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nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
i have noticed that changing our guard meter has made us significantly weaker. And also it does not show block when we actually guard an attack. You people are making me so afraid with how you are stylishly trying to break our class. Keep the guard meter the way it is please just leave it alone.
Damage is a major issue and probably the biggest one for GF's right now.
I know a lot of people do not agree with that, however by saying this you are saying you do not believe a GF should be able to kill any other class in PvP... because, in general, all things equal, they cannot.
I have several videos of short 1v1's on test that I am trying to get approved to post up here so that some of the PvE crowd, and the Developers can see how horribly gimped GF is in PvP.
On a side note, our survivability is also terrible, we have no means of regenerating any HP which would be what is necessary to stay alive in pvp and play that "Tank" roll people are talking about. Our shield would be a mechanic to prevent burst damage, and also provide a method of protection while we regen.
BOTH of these options should be available to GF's as they are in nearly every other class. A tanky build, and a DPS build. Our Tanky build would be a little Tankier than other classes, and our "DPS" build should do a little less simply due to the nature of how a "Guardian" class is perceived by the masses.
I think stat reallocation is a realistic way to begin to achieve this, however I'm not sure who's method would be more effective (Ayroux's or Colonel's) and either would have to be monitored VERY closely as this could potentially make GF's way too powerful.
Either way if you look at how positively the constitution buff has been received (without even coming CLOSE to being Overpowered) I think it is clear that this is something that should be very seriously considered by the Development team.
Enemy Team
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2014
Sorry guys and gals but the feedback forums were becoming quite a mess of back and forth with a lot of insults, you're rights and you're wrongs rather than actual feedback of your own opinions.
I tried to leave as much direct feedback as I could but while reading so much I likely did grab some things that could have arguably been left behind. If you feel a specific post should be left behind feel free to PM me but the simpler alternative is to just reaffirm your feedback using direct feedback, preferably using the format the developers requested.
The only non-direct feedback I did intentionally leave were the simple "I agree" posts as it at least directs the devs to direct feedback.
If you want to continue with the speculation and debates on what the best approach is then please do so here. Thanks!
The guard meter change is a really big nerf to us and is not needed. We needed more guard meter because of how easily it depleted from at-wills from attackers with plague fire. We didnt need you to nerf your guard or completed change it to something life this. It is so hard to survive now. This was a bad idea so please leave it as "guard meter" not "stamina" and 80% blocking. I have I have fought a lot of people to tryout the knew stamina thing and i perform poorly. We also do not fare well against any class in pvp because of the new guard revamp. it is a big mistake
To summerize I think alot of what was said in a constructive manner:
People generally fall into two camps:
1) Give us the old block back but buff it.
2) The new block could work, however not in its current form.
The PROBLEM with the new block is two fold. 1) It lasts WAY too short.
2) The re-charge time is WAY too long.
Currently its AROUND 5 seconds uptime with AROUND 15 seconds recharge. I think a GOOD middle ground on the PTR block would be around 8 seconds uptime with around 8 seconds downtime (this of course would be feated and geared, so as a base it probably would look like 5 seconds up 10 seconds down, with buffs being able to average that back to again 8 up 8 down.)
Now, another ISSUE with the GF is the current stat allocation.
Solution:Give Guardian Fighters the same stat bonuses as GWFs in that CON = HP and ARP while DEX = CRIT and DEFLECT (as the primary stats)
This helps balance GFs somewhat from an offensive standpoint with more critical being possible.
I think these changes would make the GF a potential defensive beast with decent offensive capabilities - depending on how it was played.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2014
Yes, there were certainly a lot of constructive discussions occurring within what I cleaned which is why I moved all of them to it's own forum. Thanks for giving what you feel is a summary of what was removed and of course everybody else is welcome to do so as well. Just let's keep the debates out of the Official Feedback from this point on.
Imagine you are all talking directly to the developers and they want a bullet point run down of your thoughts and concerns. The easier you make it to read the easier it will be to get your thoughts across.
The long winded debates are helpful and desired but not in this thread. This thread is just the developers and you although some quick I agree or disagree with this and that are fine, just no more long winded debates.
Threat: Distance based threat has been removed. Threat is now purely calculated based on Damage and Healing. Threat bonuses still calculate as normal.
Stats
Strength: Now provides Stamina Regen rather than Guard Meter.
Constitution: Each point of Constitution increases max HP by 4% (up from 2%).
Powers
Block: Now consumes stamina while active. Reduces incoming damage by 80% while active.
Block: Now activates more quickly and has a .25 second cooldown after being released (down from .5 seconds)
Mark: Now causes you to deal 200% (up from 100%) additional threat on Marked targets.
Mark: Marked targets now grant combat advantage to the Guardian's Allies.
Mark: Mark will now taunt foes briefly as well as place the player at the top of the threat list.
Enhanced Mark: Now grants 75% bonus threat per rank (up from 33%).
Knight's Valor: Now transfer's 200% (up from 50%) of the threat allies deal to you.
Enforced Threat: Can now hit up to 20 (up from 8) nearby targets.
Tide of Iron: Now restores Stamina instead of Guard Meter.
Shield Talent: Now causes Block to drain Stamina more slowly
Enforced Threat: Now restores Stamina instead of Guard Meter.
Shield Slam: Now restores Stamina instead of Guard Meter.
Into the Fray: Now restores Stamina instead of Guard Meter.
Iron Warrior: Now increases Stamina Regeneration by 50% while active rather than reducing damage Guard meter takes.
Iron Warrior: Base threat bonus increased to 200% (up from 150%).
Iron Warrior: This power now properly increases threat generation.
Iron Vanguard: Threatening Rush: This power now has 3 charges which refresh every 9 seconds.
Iron Vanguard: Frontline Surge: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.
Feats
Armor of Bahamut: *REWORK* When Stamina is below 30%, you take 2/4/6/8/10% less damage from all sources.
Shieldmaster: Guard now drains Stamina 2/4/6/8/10% more slowly.
Reckless Attacker: Now grants its bonus based on remaining Stamina rather than Guard Meter.
Item Sets
Wilds Knight Set Bonus: Now grants Stamina rather than Guard Meter.
PVP Set Bonus: Now grants Stamina rather than Guard Meter.
Feedback: Block. - I like how Blocking feels more responsive now, and I like how Guard Meter Drain is based on time instead of the amount of hits taken. But despite all that, feels too short as per my testing. It drains far too quickly, and this reworked mechanic also feels like it reduced how our Block At-Wills interact with the Block Mechanic itself even further. There isn't much reason to use the At-Wills while Blocking, as they contribute far too little. Shield Slam doesn't seem like it does anything, neither does Tide of Iron in terms of recovering our Stamina/Guard Meters. I spec-ed for full Guard Recovery but it still feels like it drains too fast, even with all 3 Guard Recovery skills active. The Iron Warrior Guard Recovery buff feels as if it goes away too quickly. It's our best Guard Recovery skill in Preview but it doesn't do much with how Block drains too quickly, even if I take the feat Shieldmaster which reduces my Block drain by 10%, as well as Elven Resolve. Block is also not generating the AP it used to generate which makes it less useful in terms of firing dailies, even if you spec for maximized AP gain.
I hope you guys do not mind us suggesting a couple of things, but I feel it would be better if all 3 Guard Recovery skills recovered 50% each, or at least reduce how fast the stamina/block meter drains. And if it's possible, increasing the AP gain from Blocking comparable to how it used to be before these changes hit would make blocking attacks feel like its worth the risk.
Bug: Block. - I'm not sure if this is intended, but for some reason the crawl speed while guarding has been effectively removed. Guarding and not using Guard makes me walk at the same speed. It feels good to be able to run faster from enemies while guarding, but since it wasn't mentioned in the patch notes it also felt a little weird.
- Block is also not generating the sounds it used to make whenever your Shield gets hit by an enemy attack.
Feedback: Mark, Enhanced Mark, Enforced Threat. - Thank you. A much needed change for tanking! Makes it easier to pull enemies from allies, and Marking also amps their damage. I like how Enforced Threat can taunt up to 20 enemies now and it's REALLY, REALLY fun to use as per my experience in the Preview Shard. I'm sure other PVE GFs feel the same way. It's engaging, I feel like a walking Arcane Singularity, and I like the many combos I can pull off with Enforced Threat by pairing it up with certain powers and enchantments that makes it perform neat tricks. Enforced Threat paired with Enhanced Mark and the new Mark Mechanic will definitely make the GF more useful in PVE party setups, specially with the recent CW nerfs to Arcane Singularity.
Feedback: Feats. - I'm not sure where to start. I like how Armor of Bahamut behaves. But as for the other feats, it's all pretty much the same. I'm hoping we'll see more reworks for the GF feats, most specially the Protector Path as it's the least preferred path due to how unreliable and useless the capstone feat is. It would be great if the protector path would interact with how Blocking behaves, like we can block attacks from all directions instead of just being able to block 270 degrees. I personally am looking forward to how you guys will be able to make this path more useful for GFs.
I actually have no problem with the Threatening Rush Nerf. Does it suck? Yeah! Is it going to effect ME in PvP much? No. I have several encounters that act as gap closers, the only thing TR does for me is to give me a tool to encourage classes to use their dodges up so I can start dropping my encounters.
I don't think there will be many situations in PvP where I will say "dang! I wish I had another charge of TR". That being said, leaving it as it is on live (for GF only) would help people who like to use different encounters, and also be useful for GF's who like to distract and intimidate in PvP. Unlimited TR on GWF is OP, on GF it most certainly is NOT.
In PVP, in PVe with no sprint it is one of the only ways the slowest class in the game has to manuever. Especially now wioth threat buffed.....
On another note to summary again to drive the points I feel need to be looked at:
Block: I can see this working if we gain more time to this and get our 100% cc immunity back with it
Threatening rush: Leave the gf TR alone this should only need to apply to GWF
FLS: Again this should not become a stun on the gf and should by applied to the GWF as they have different encounters which can give the same effect but more in line in being a single target striker.
Only way the current stamina block will work is if it only depletes while getting attacked. That wouldn't make a big difference in PvE and make it a lot more useful in PvP. I don't see another way of making stamina block relevant in PvP.
Of course another way is keeping the old block. The one which our skills are working with and whose bugs were fixed over a long period of time.
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brynicstormbornMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 41
edited June 2014
Here's my feedback from spending a few hours on preview, mostly in Dwarven Valley.
Hit Points: The bonus to hit points from constitution is good. I'd like to see it taken a small step further though by increasing the toughness feet for guardian fighters to 5/10/15% instead of 3/6/9%
Mark:
I like the changes to mark. Combat advantage for my allies really helps me be a team player. One thing that occurs to me though is that GWFs also get a hard taunt from their mark abilities. I wasn't able to test it thoroughly, but does this mean a GWF would be able to (temporarily) instantly steal all of my aggro? Perhaps only GF marks should hard taunt? This would also help give another reason to choose a GF as a tank over a GWF.
Block:
Where do I begin. I didn't dislike the previous block - I felt it was drained too quickly, but otherwise I liked it. The current block though drains just as rapidly as the old block, and it drains even when I'm not being hit. I feel like the stamina system could work, but it needs to have the stamina meter greatly increased in duration.
Just from my testing, I'd say the stamina meter needs to be at least doubled in duration. A 10-20% increase to stamina regen improvement would not hurt also, to get the shield up and around faster. I also would like to see the shield interrupt whatever I'm doing when I hit my shift key.
Block also seems to be bugged currently. As stated by another poster, from my testing block does not seem to be mitigating any control effects. I was still able to get knocked around by some hammerstone dwarves (there was nobody behind me) even with block up.
The damage resistance of block needs to be looked at also. Other shift abilities get you immediately out of the damage field, effectively nullifying all damage. Block should do the same thing. I would like to see it returned to 100% damage mitigation. As it is now, I was easily hit by mobs during a heroic encounter for 2k+ with block up.
Overall, I think there is the groundwork of some really good changes here. I still strongly feel like the GF needs an increase in their passive mitigation from stats - I understand diminishing returns, but my GF should not receive less DR from 5000 defense than my GWF does from 3000. Deflect is as bad or worse. Deflection should scale equally on GWFs and GFs, and Defense should scale for GFs at the same rate as Sentinel GWFs. I'd also like to see the protector tree reorganized (to pull some the defense out of the reach of conquerors) and then improved slightly. Move shieldmaster to tier 1, plate agility to t2, and shield defense to t3. Increase plate agility to 1.5/3/4.5/6/7.5% deflection chance. Improve shield defense to 2/4/6/8/10 AC.
Keep up the good work! I know class balancing is hard and a lot of factors have to be taken into account.
- B
Comments
also, threats to quit and overall unproductive posts will be canned.
please remember that these changes are on the preview server so you can test it and give your respectful and constructive feedback. you won't convince anyone to lean to your point of view with insults, antagonism or an angry star-filled post. we want what you want, but you have to follow the forum guidelines, please.
do NOT reply to this message. if you want to discuss forum rules, send me a PM. thanks.
Whats funny - to the person from Enemy Team saying to stop listening to me, is that most of the above I have brought up several times in several places. But oh well.
We can all agree on one thing: The BLOCK on the PTR sucks.
Many people have suggested ideas, personally I think a stamina meter CAN work, it just needs to be done properly. It needs to block 100% of damage, and it needs to have a base duration of about 5-6 seconds. This will then boost that at max capacity to about 9-10 seconds.
It also needs a better re-charge time. I think thats what is making it feel like garbage... You block for 5 seconds - which is NOTHING, then spend eternity waiting for block.
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So yeah, my opinion still stands. Scrap the new block mechanic and let us use a modified version of the current one. Preferably with a guard meter depletion decrease of 200%. This would instantaneously solve 70% of our problems and is easy to implement on top of that.
I agree with you here. But I then have to ask the question. If you think we are a tank, why have you made us more squishy than a TR, GWF, and literally twice as squishy as a HR?
If you say we are a tank, why do GWF's get 10k HP up on us with little to no effort, CW's can get 35-37k hp, yet you say the tank that we are struggle to top 38-40k without major major major draw backs.
- If you want to increase team survivability, fix the 10% more damage, and make it 15% more damage and 10% more DR vs marked targets
- Remove the Defense soft cap and make it a linear scale! Every single armor set you have given us puts as at the soft cap, and since our deflection is less than TR's, HR's, GWF's, you idea of a tank, is to have to lower hp, deflection, resistance?
I'm not trying to be a smart ****, I am just using a little sarcasm to prove the point. If you truly believe what you say, then why have you neglected to make us the tank that you so truly believe we are?
You hate the must use moves? - GWF's, have like 3-4 moves after this patch, I couldn't tell you. TR's have like 3-4 moves, same for dailies and class features. It is the result of numerous nerfs to oblivion. For the Guardian we have so many moves with potential you just have them at the point to where there is no benefit to using them whatsoever.
Knee Breaker - You guys got close, it semi slows them, does a mediocre at best dot, but it can miss, and it really doesn't lunge at them to do it at all. It's damage is maybe 2/3's of what it should be, and the dot should be twice as long. This would add some viable weapon enchants to the build as well as give the GF their own dot.
Griffon's Wrath - Again, you guys got close but still no cigar. The ability is cool, but the stun is not long enough to chain the moves together, the animation is too long and clanky to set up with the GF's now arguably having only one prone left that can do a mixture of ten different things if you hit the same guy with it (bull charge). Take the charge use down 3 seconds, and increase the stun, or since you hate control, increase it's speed so we can get the 3 hit and benefit from 2 hits upon rapid succession.
Guarded Assault - Increase this to 5-8% reflect to pair it with briartwine so we can actually get some reflect going, granted we know the majority of it will be mitigated, we need something to hurt people if we are actually going to tank.
Armor Effectiveness Feat - make it 25%, 15% is unnoticeable, Increase Deflect chance by 10% not just 5, GF's have horrrrrrible Deflect, and this would also add to the "tank" you say you believe in.
Trample the Fallen - Targets when marked receive a DOT rather than a damage % increase. So now, we can mark and DOT those CW's and HR's who stand off point while we cap and cut us down in a matter of seconds.
Lunging Strike - Decrease its range, but add a 1/2 second stun/interrupt. (Currently, you guys have absolutely nothing to counter the perm TR that YOU created. As aside from a well guessed FS, which is a stun now so it won't work, GF's can do nothing to these guys). As soon as stealth pops they shadow strike then off they go, if LS was made to interrupt w/out having to take the feat in the tree, and then you replace that feat with say one that more benefits the tank role, it would be nice).
Bull Charge- Make this what it used to be. A high flying no stun, no root, PRONE! We are node holders, and in the current meta where a contested point gains zero rather than a slower tick for the team who has capped it. As the tank, we need a way to knock these guys off. As I mentioned before, BC is random, it basically acts like a stun, sometimes a prone, and sometimes they go flying. Sure when you realize what makes them go flying you can abuse it and get the old Bull Charge. But still, we can't knock people off anymore. And once FS is nerfed to a stun which really needs reverted back to Mod 1 for GF's, not the GWF's - The GF will essentially not be able to knock people off to get a few points to bleed.
Gear Sets - Please quit making every set have the same bonus, but just slighty different stats. It takes away all creativity. We can all ready only use 1 maybe 2 armor enchants max, and only 1 weapon enchant. I know you guys are very confused with where to take hte guardian as its gear sets have such random allocation of stats. HR's stats are perfectly placed on their gear, same as GWF. But Guardians, it is like you guys hit the random button to assign stats for sets.
DEFLECTION - HOOK US UP, we all ready have some of the lowest deflection of any class on the game, and if you want us to start acting like tanks, (not in pve, pve is so easy you don't need them) - but in pvp, then give it to us.
DEFENSE - Take off the soft cap, or lower the defense and give us other abilities.
RECOVERY - Increase the recovery on all of the sets, we are a class that lives and dies by our daily as our other powers are so sub par, so if that is the case, and you want us to be tank, we will all be using Terrifying and SOS, Terrifying to inturrupt the new horrible unstoppable, and SOS to buy us time to recover, or to hurt anyone who is dumb enough to attack
Armor Pen - Put this on our dang sets, we have to work 10x harder for damage, and we still don't do THAT much in comparison. That being said, we are currently some of the worst tanks, so if you do change us to fit your idea of a tank then I remove this
CRITICAL STRIKE - total rework. We put 3x into this stat and get 1/2 of what another class gets. Regardless, tank or not, a critical strike is a must have no matter how tank we are. It needs to be on more gear sets, and we need an ability to boost this. Especially now that we can no longer prone enemies.
- So there you have it, I could rant all day, but this is primarily as a PVP player who used to do PVE - got bored with bugging out dungeons and not being needed as GF as the CNdraco wings could knock me off, and then you fixed it a year later when no one does CN but anyway.......... If you took these into consideration, you would get a lot more variety in GF's. The protector tree I left out because while it has massive potential, the feat rework that it would need would not be taken lightly by the dev's and despite all the testing I've done I doubt they would get it right. But anyway, just a few ideas.
​​Constructive feedback:
My build is an Iron Vanguard, Tactician GF
This change to the block mechanic has made solo PvE incredibly hard. My character has always been based on soaking up damage, this is now impossible. I have never hit particularly hard which didn't bother me as long as I could defend myself. Going from having a guard that has to be broken to a function that doesnt block fully and drains while in use makes made my build unplayable. Hopefully this is work in progress though.
Con that gives armor penetration - Makes no sense right? but the GWF have it, so try to make sense out of it and let me know what you found out. People like this who blabbers their intellect without even thinking of the other constructive criticism makes me puke.
Back to the Topic
- BLOCK:
Right now i am using the profound set that increase the block meter/stamina by 30% - basically by holding down my block it depletes my stamina within 4.47s (approximately) before it goes down to 0% - wherein in the old block mechanic, i can hold it indefinitely as long as nobody attacks me.The stamina block is a good idea indeed but what others has mentioned the implementation is poor - you should consider that we are now taking 80% damage with our block now in preview compared to the one we have at the moment in live but with this changes you are basically downgrading the block mechanic.
it seems like the control abilities is going through block - a wolf was able to use his bite attack on me and drag me like a piece of paper even though i was blocking it
- Threat Rush
I have been using TR in PVE to mark targets consistently(since mark dissapear immediately after a mob hit you, so by putting a charge on to this you are limiting our playsytle not just in PVE but also in PVP)PVP use - this is the one of the best mobility move we have aside from lunging strike, by putting 3 charges on it you are basically making us walk to our opponent while they Kite us. beside this was not OP in the hands of a GF before - only reason why we are getting this change in TR is because of the GWF abusing it which they do not deserve our paragon in the first place
- Frontline Surge
Again this move was nerf mainly because of the paragon switch. this is the only thing that is making us relevant in PVP. by knocking back our opponent off the node using prones.- Shield Talent
I use this feat when i was doing some test in the stamina depletion, it hardly does anything from the original 4.47 i recorded without the shield talent - it just barely move to 4.54 seconds at level 3 <-- again this is approximately since i have been timing it- Threat
This change is been un-called for, we already have enough threat to glue those mob to us so i dont see why increasing this will help us but i'll take it- CON increase of HP
I feel this is still a little bit low - if you are increasing our threat and downgrading our block meter then the HP is the only thing we have left yet i still feel that the 4% increase is still to small. can you try to up this by 5% or 6%.- Marked targets provides combat advantage to allies
why is our allies only getting this increase, we need those increase damage but yet again just like KC we are excluded from the Bonus, can you stop excluding us from the bonus and make it look like we are a buff pet - might as well name us the Guardian buffer pet <-- yes i have test this and someone only "allies" not including you are benefiting from this-Suggeestions
Block - Dramatically increase the duration of block by lower the depletion rate of our stamina and remove the 80% damage rate.
Threat Rush - please for the love of god don't put the 3 charge on TR(keep the old one), a rouge dagger throw has around 9 stocks and regenerates around 3 sec per dagger. let us keep the old one - we do not deserve this nerf in our at-will in the first place
Frontline Surge - Same as above we do not deserve this nerf from our original power as it was not OP when we are using it and this is the only individuality we have from the rest of the class to begin with
As many players have reported the new block is the worst implementation of the general idea of what the GF's community was looking for. Right now the live version is many times better that what the suppose "improvement version" that is on preview. Plus Dev's you basically put a big sign on GF's that say "PLEASE KILL ME WHEN I CAST ENFORCED THREAD", with our current stuff it was a hard task to stay alive with 8 mobs, now with 20 without anyway to mitigate/handle all the incoming damage enforced thread just turn out into a GF's dead sentence. Also thread was one of the less important problems for gf's, your solution basically just broke up the thread table and it may turn out into many bugs cause the up/down jumps than gf's could generate cause of the new mark mechanics.
1. What the gf's community was looking for when saying a stamina based guard not based on damage was that our shield should not be drained so fast cause each 18% of guard was equal to ~4k hp, and basically taking hits from CW/HR/TR/GWF dps cannons builds just break our guard almost in an instant, and when gf's guard is down, we just die like any mob in pve, what we was looking for is that our guard should last a flat time no matter how many hits they throw on us, and that time should be increased by stats/armor set bonus/boons, that guard should be drained when WE ARE HITTED not because we just raise our shield up.
2. Your approach to fix thread can turn in the future to endless bugs, up and down jumps on thread table that gf will create cause of the new hard taunt that mark will produce, i posted my idea of how you could solve thread/aggro problems over GF's unofficial thread, and it was as simple as make aggro not so heavy dependent on mark, how much you think a mark will last apart from the one on tab, 2 secs at MAX if we are lucky, my idea was to turn out enhanced mark passive ability into a passive aggro generator that doesnt depend on mark, and on the top of that to gives GF's more AoE encounters, so far we got ET, FLS if mobs are in front of us and that's it, tanks needs AoE in other to keep mobs busy on them and keep aggro on them while their aggro skills are on cd. Also i suggestd that ET mark should be a temporary special one that only GF's can generate.
3. GF's need DAMAGE, let me say it again, GF's NEED MORE DAMAGE, damage is one of the most used aggro builders, and the main problem with gf's is that we got the LOWEST WEAPON DAMAGE OF THE GAME and since all is based in our weapon damage, everything is linked to it, more damage means we can build more aggro while hitting, our encounters will gonna hit harder and build more aggro, being a tank doesnt mean that you should hit like a wet noodle, being a tanks means that you have to focus on keep mobs on you so your other teammates can focus on their job. On the same topic GF should not being penalized as the only class with no access to critical, critical gives other classes some bonuses and bring some utility to the whole party, why gf's cant have it?
4. Nice finally you increase ET target cap to 20, but how i can handle it if my HP increase is barely minimal (thanks for that, is around 3-5K hp), my DR still 44-53% my deflect is around 15-22%, not gonna happen, in the same way you increase the amount of mobs that we taunt we need ways to handle all that incoming damage before we blame the cleric, healing in this game is not designed to one skill heal you 20k HP with 6sec CD, the whole idea of getting more mobs on us also include a way to handle them, aka more DR, deflect, regen, temporary HP, lifesteal, deflect. Give gf's under their feat trees bonuses based on how many mobs we have on us.
5. Our armor sets still untouched, really, GF's need other stats that just defense over defense over defense that is hitting on high DR values, our useless feats needs to be reworked, we should be the class with the highest deflect chance of the game, not the one that have to make huge tradeoffs to get close to 25-30%.
6. Please GF's should not being penalized cause the big mistake you did on the past sharing IV with GWF, TR is one of the main tools of GF's to compesate our lack of mobility, keep the nerf if you want to GWF's
Im fine with this, although I think to be fair I would make block meter a "damage pool" you can absorb IDK what a fair number would be, 10k?
This precisely. That its a function of time under attack NOT how many attacks, but also not just based on time blocking where you can effectively stand still and drain block with no combat...
This has been poorly represented in the current version on PTR not only in concept but duration as well.
10k is one skill. Even a DC can hit for that much. I like my suggestion better, to be honest. A flat depletion decrease of 200% along with the current system we use on live and the thing is perfect. So we'd have 3 times as much guard meter and then we would actually be able to take more than 2-3 bigger hits, without being able to survive infinitely. (just a few seconds, longer)
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I am also not in favor of the timed block - gates, as i mentioned before. Blocking has to be available without depletion, at all times. Because, we have no real reliable form of anti cc, our movement is beyond slow, plus as i mentioned, tying it to a timer would grant other classes too many advantages on us, when in fact blocking should be OUR advantage and not a burden as it is on PTS.
Guarding does not reduce movement speed
OLD GUARD METER was based on damage taken, and it blocked all damage. So, until you took damage, the GM would not decrease, and you were (mostly) preserved from attacks. The old guard meter had the function of keeping the immobile and non-dps GF kinda safe in big mobs and in PvP. The old guard meter could annoy PvP by standing on a point and using guard meter/regen to pull two opposing team members, so that your PvP could have an advantage. The more the guard meter, the more time you might create and advantage ( along with skills of course). The raising of the guard meter and the breaking of the guard meter were problematic, but the GM itself offset some of the disadvantage.
NEW GUARD METER: It is based on time in guard...period. If you go into guard before an enemy attacks, tough. You just drained your stamina. Stamina drains and blocks 80%. Not a bad idea, but it means the GF is taking damage in guard no matter what. Okay. Let me assume that I will trade off 20% damage for longer guard. NOPE! You nerfed the time of the Guard Meter. With STR at 25, 15% power buff, 5% stamina regen, 5% artifact stamina regen, Sharandar boon for 10% regen, I only get about 5 seconds of guard, and it takes about 10 seconds for stamina to regenerate. Yes! It takes 2x as long to regenerate. So, I get less time in guard than before (even one based on damage), I take damage in guard, and it takes just as long to regenerate stamina as it did guard before (perhaps a little faster since there is no guard breaking that I saw). Basically, the devs seemed to want to increase the guarding of the GF with hitpoints to make it more of a tank. Instead, the current timer ticker is too fast. And, because you are changing the At-Will threatening rush because of GWFs who spam it in PvP, the GF is even less mobile. So, I can just stand there in guard for 5 seconds and die, because I cannot move as before.
Please reconsider the stamina based guard meter, or change the timer!! Please! With the initial information, I was actually considering the Protector path, because it may be very beneficial to boost the meter to be more impervious. However, a 10% reduction to 5 seconds is not worth the path. And the Armor of Bahamut's feat of 10% less damage with Stamina less than 35% will be a seesaw effect. 1.66 seconds of 10% less damage, and then no guard, and I am open to all attacks (still with 10% less damage). That does not sound good. I would rather have 100% damage reduction with the old guard meter to pot or move or do something.
It seems the whole intent of this new guard is to have the player not use guard all the time, to be more selective, to be reactive in guard, rather than proactive. And you changed the time we can get into guard to perhaps reflect that idea. However, let me give my opinion about that.
FIRST, with the different computer speeds that link to the game and utilize it, such a fine style of play may be impossible for some people. Removal of the proactive element makes this class almost unplayable for some who have older processors.
SECOND, a reactive tank seems oxymoronic. A tank is not a light assault vehicle that skits around. It takes up space, absorbs damage, and says come at me. But, the design of the new guard meter is like putting the armor of the tank on the ground and telling the crew to assemble armor when the bomb comes. That is not what tanks do. They either are tanks or not. With the old guard meter, players could be proactive with the GF. I do not mean lazy, I mean proactive. Because of the stance and payoff, going into guard signalled your team and the other team your intentions to defend. The new guard does not allow this as it drains too quickly. And the defense is less than the original GM anyway...
THIRD, in PvE, the GF will be useless in big mobs. In PvP, going toe-to-toe with a permastealth TR or uber HR to clog up a point is worthless. The guard drains to fast. The TR will just wait for stamina to drain. Before, the TR had to flurry to take down the guard. Now, it just needs to hit-and-wait. Then hit when no guard. The GF will lose value in PvP and PvE (if that were possible).
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
I can understand why Threatening Rush would be turned into a limited charge on a GWF, but on a GF it is uncalled for. We are the least mobile of all the classes and along with Lunging Strike, which is already on cooldown, Threatening Rush was the one sure fire way of repositioning ourselves. It is also a core tool in us drawing threat. If my Lunging Strike is on cooldown and I see a monster harassing one of my squishies, I can Threatening Rush to said monster and pull it off of my squishy. We cannot ''exploit'' it like a GWF, so Threatening Rush needs to be looked at from a GFs perspective. If you cannot offer two versions of the power - charge on GWF, no charge on GF - then allow the GF to reduce its recharge time by 50% through one of our feats. But make sure this is an Heroic feat so all 3 paragons can get to it. This is one of the Iron Vanguard Guardian Fighter's core utility powers.
Feedback: Block
I love the idea of a stamina bar, but I don't think it has been implemented in the best possible way. With Shield Talent active (3 points) I get 5 seconds of block and those 5 seconds drain out of combat. If I wear my 4/4 Profound PVP gear it increase to just under 7 seconds, which again is not that much. In combat I can block one attack, even an at-will, and end up with a broken guard. Block duration is too low and the speed at which it drains is too fast. A smart opponent in PVP will just sandbag us into wasting our guard as they now no longer need to hit it to break it yet it will still drain as fast as before.
My second gripe is, our block only absorbs 80% of damage. This does not make sense. It is a solid piece of steel we are raising in front of us. Other classes can sprint away from or dodge out of the danger zone and take zero damage yet we are forced to sit in the danger zone while being unable to negate 100% of the incoming damage.
Overall the new guard concept is a step in the right direction, but it needs to be looked at.
Armor Specialization still does not work
Strength focus does nothing for our strength
Knights challenge is still extremely buggy and the delay makes the skill unusable. And also a lot of time the skill goes gray for minutes at a time and i have to re slot it in.
Feedback
The nerf to our guard is unneeded. We should be able to keep our guard the way it is. now it is tooo weak and we lose stamina way too quickly and i am protector spec.
Also i didnt know that guardian fighters had a hole in their shield? When we block it should show "block". The 80% damage immunity makes use extremely squishy now.
The changes to our guard meter was a huge nerf and the nerf to iron vanguard because of great weapon fighters have made us sooooooo weak now it makes me question if you are trying to buff or nerf us.
This is the only solution I can see that would make a "Timed" guard at least feasible. It would basically work like block does now, but it would be useful for blocking rapid successive hits such as from a TR's DF. I still do not like the idea, and I feel the original mechanic buffed up a little is a far better solution. BUT if we are going to go down the road of a timed block, I think this is the only way it could work.
I know a lot of people do not agree with that, however by saying this you are saying you do not believe a GF should be able to kill any other class in PvP... because, in general, all things equal, they cannot.
I have several videos of short 1v1's on test that I am trying to get approved to post up here so that some of the PvE crowd, and the Developers can see how horribly gimped GF is in PvP.
On a side note, our survivability is also terrible, we have no means of regenerating any HP which would be what is necessary to stay alive in pvp and play that "Tank" roll people are talking about. Our shield would be a mechanic to prevent burst damage, and also provide a method of protection while we regen.
BOTH of these options should be available to GF's as they are in nearly every other class. A tanky build, and a DPS build. Our Tanky build would be a little Tankier than other classes, and our "DPS" build should do a little less simply due to the nature of how a "Guardian" class is perceived by the masses.
I think stat reallocation is a realistic way to begin to achieve this, however I'm not sure who's method would be more effective (Ayroux's or Colonel's) and either would have to be monitored VERY closely as this could potentially make GF's way too powerful.
Either way if you look at how positively the constitution buff has been received (without even coming CLOSE to being Overpowered) I think it is clear that this is something that should be very seriously considered by the Development team.
I tried to leave as much direct feedback as I could but while reading so much I likely did grab some things that could have arguably been left behind. If you feel a specific post should be left behind feel free to PM me but the simpler alternative is to just reaffirm your feedback using direct feedback, preferably using the format the developers requested.
The only non-direct feedback I did intentionally leave were the simple "I agree" posts as it at least directs the devs to direct feedback.
If you want to continue with the speculation and debates on what the best approach is then please do so here. Thanks!
To summerize I think alot of what was said in a constructive manner:
People generally fall into two camps:
1) Give us the old block back but buff it.
2) The new block could work, however not in its current form.
The PROBLEM with the new block is two fold.
1) It lasts WAY too short.
2) The re-charge time is WAY too long.
Currently its AROUND 5 seconds uptime with AROUND 15 seconds recharge. I think a GOOD middle ground on the PTR block would be around 8 seconds uptime with around 8 seconds downtime (this of course would be feated and geared, so as a base it probably would look like 5 seconds up 10 seconds down, with buffs being able to average that back to again 8 up 8 down.)
Now, another ISSUE with the GF is the current stat allocation.
Solution:Give Guardian Fighters the same stat bonuses as GWFs in that CON = HP and ARP while DEX = CRIT and DEFLECT (as the primary stats)
This helps balance GFs somewhat from an offensive standpoint with more critical being possible.
I think these changes would make the GF a potential defensive beast with decent offensive capabilities - depending on how it was played.
Imagine you are all talking directly to the developers and they want a bullet point run down of your thoughts and concerns. The easier you make it to read the easier it will be to get your thoughts across.
The long winded debates are helpful and desired but not in this thread. This thread is just the developers and you although some quick I agree or disagree with this and that are fine, just no more long winded debates.
Feedback: Block.
- I like how Blocking feels more responsive now, and I like how Guard Meter Drain is based on time instead of the amount of hits taken. But despite all that, feels too short as per my testing. It drains far too quickly, and this reworked mechanic also feels like it reduced how our Block At-Wills interact with the Block Mechanic itself even further. There isn't much reason to use the At-Wills while Blocking, as they contribute far too little. Shield Slam doesn't seem like it does anything, neither does Tide of Iron in terms of recovering our Stamina/Guard Meters. I spec-ed for full Guard Recovery but it still feels like it drains too fast, even with all 3 Guard Recovery skills active. The Iron Warrior Guard Recovery buff feels as if it goes away too quickly. It's our best Guard Recovery skill in Preview but it doesn't do much with how Block drains too quickly, even if I take the feat Shieldmaster which reduces my Block drain by 10%, as well as Elven Resolve. Block is also not generating the AP it used to generate which makes it less useful in terms of firing dailies, even if you spec for maximized AP gain.
I hope you guys do not mind us suggesting a couple of things, but I feel it would be better if all 3 Guard Recovery skills recovered 50% each, or at least reduce how fast the stamina/block meter drains. And if it's possible, increasing the AP gain from Blocking comparable to how it used to be before these changes hit would make blocking attacks feel like its worth the risk.
Bug: Block.
- I'm not sure if this is intended, but for some reason the crawl speed while guarding has been effectively removed. Guarding and not using Guard makes me walk at the same speed. It feels good to be able to run faster from enemies while guarding, but since it wasn't mentioned in the patch notes it also felt a little weird.
- Block is also not generating the sounds it used to make whenever your Shield gets hit by an enemy attack.
Feedback: Mark, Enhanced Mark, Enforced Threat.
- Thank you. A much needed change for tanking! Makes it easier to pull enemies from allies, and Marking also amps their damage. I like how Enforced Threat can taunt up to 20 enemies now and it's REALLY, REALLY fun to use as per my experience in the Preview Shard. I'm sure other PVE GFs feel the same way. It's engaging, I feel like a walking Arcane Singularity, and I like the many combos I can pull off with Enforced Threat by pairing it up with certain powers and enchantments that makes it perform neat tricks.
Feedback: Feats.
- I'm not sure where to start. I like how Armor of Bahamut behaves. But as for the other feats, it's all pretty much the same. I'm hoping we'll see more reworks for the GF feats, most specially the Protector Path as it's the least preferred path due to how unreliable and useless the capstone feat is. It would be great if the protector path would interact with how Blocking behaves, like we can block attacks from all directions instead of just being able to block 270 degrees. I personally am looking forward to how you guys will be able to make this path more useful for GFs.
In PVP, in PVe with no sprint it is one of the only ways the slowest class in the game has to manuever. Especially now wioth threat buffed.....
On another note to summary again to drive the points I feel need to be looked at:
Block: I can see this working if we gain more time to this and get our 100% cc immunity back with it
Threatening rush: Leave the gf TR alone this should only need to apply to GWF
FLS: Again this should not become a stun on the gf and should by applied to the GWF as they have different encounters which can give the same effect but more in line in being a single target striker.
Of course another way is keeping the old block. The one which our skills are working with and whose bugs were fixed over a long period of time.
Hit Points:
The bonus to hit points from constitution is good. I'd like to see it taken a small step further though by increasing the toughness feet for guardian fighters to 5/10/15% instead of 3/6/9%
Mark:
I like the changes to mark. Combat advantage for my allies really helps me be a team player.
One thing that occurs to me though is that GWFs also get a hard taunt from their mark abilities. I wasn't able to test it thoroughly, but does this mean a GWF would be able to (temporarily) instantly steal all of my aggro? Perhaps only GF marks should hard taunt? This would also help give another reason to choose a GF as a tank over a GWF.
Block:
Where do I begin.
I didn't dislike the previous block - I felt it was drained too quickly, but otherwise I liked it. The current block though drains just as rapidly as the old block, and it drains even when I'm not being hit. I feel like the stamina system could work, but it needs to have the stamina meter greatly increased in duration.
Just from my testing, I'd say the stamina meter needs to be at least doubled in duration. A 10-20% increase to stamina regen improvement would not hurt also, to get the shield up and around faster. I also would like to see the shield interrupt whatever I'm doing when I hit my shift key.
Block also seems to be bugged currently. As stated by another poster, from my testing block does not seem to be mitigating any control effects. I was still able to get knocked around by some hammerstone dwarves (there was nobody behind me) even with block up.
The damage resistance of block needs to be looked at also. Other shift abilities get you immediately out of the damage field, effectively nullifying all damage. Block should do the same thing. I would like to see it returned to 100% damage mitigation. As it is now, I was easily hit by mobs during a heroic encounter for 2k+ with block up.
Overall, I think there is the groundwork of some really good changes here. I still strongly feel like the GF needs an increase in their passive mitigation from stats - I understand diminishing returns, but my GF should not receive less DR from 5000 defense than my GWF does from 3000. Deflect is as bad or worse. Deflection should scale equally on GWFs and GFs, and Defense should scale for GFs at the same rate as Sentinel GWFs. I'd also like to see the protector tree reorganized (to pull some the defense out of the reach of conquerors) and then improved slightly. Move shieldmaster to tier 1, plate agility to t2, and shield defense to t3. Increase plate agility to 1.5/3/4.5/6/7.5% deflection chance. Improve shield defense to 2/4/6/8/10 AC.
Keep up the good work! I know class balancing is hard and a lot of factors have to be taken into account.
- B