[Game mechanics] Guide to damage, tenacity, reisistance and debuffs in Neverwinter

pengustrike

Equation 2.3. CA damage calculation for non crit hits:
Total damage when CA is granted = base damage * 1.15 * (1+ CHA bonus%) * (1+ CAbonus %) * (1+ blink dog %)

Equation 2.4. CA damage calculation for critical hits:
Total damage with CA and CRIT = base damage * (1+ 0.75 + sum of all crit severity bonuses + 0.15 + CHA bonus + CAbonus) * (1+blink dog %)

For example
Say I have 18 CHA (8% CHA bonus), CA bonus of 400 (converts to 4.9% from section 1.4), a purple blink dog and only base severity of 75%.

CA damage (non crit) = base damage * 1.15 * 1.08 * 1.049 * 1.05
CA damage (non crit) = base damage * 1.368
You do 36.8% extra damage with CA

CA damage (crit) = base damage * ( 1+ 0.75 + 0.08 + 0.049) *1.05 = base damage * 1.879 * 1.05
CA damage (crit) = base damage * 1.97295
Given that the base crit damage is 1.75x, this is only a 12.7% boost with CA over a standard crit hit.

What did you do there? You did some mistakes in these equations and mixed up some calculating methodes....

In the first equation you have calculated your CA Damage with multiplication of the bonuses, in the second equation u mixed up multiplication and addition. This cant be true!

----> 1.08 * 1.049 * 1.05 isnt equal to (1 + 0.08 + 0.049) * 1.05

You have to decide which bonus is additive and which bonus is multiplicative.

Another point. What means the number 1.15 in the first equation? And why you have forgotten this number in your second equation.

Please rethink these equations.

kozi001

theosymphany wrote: »

For GWFs with a decent party if you estimate 30% CA uptime that's 5*0.3 = 1.5% bonus, which is still better than 300 power (~1.3%) and about on par with dancing blade.

Are you sure about this?
I always thought 167 power equals 1% damage. Ergo 300 power ~1,8% damage.

abaddon523

kozi001 wrote: »

Are you sure about this?
I always thought 167 power equals 1% damage. Ergo 300 power ~1,8% damage.

How much you are increasing your damage by adding power depends on how much power you already have. If you already have 6,000 power adding another 300 won't increase your damage by 1.8%.

For example: Say you have a skill that does 1000 damage when you have 0 power. If you have 6000 power it will do (1+6000/167/100)*1000 = 1,359 damage. If then you add another 300 power you will now do (1+6300/167/100)*1000 = 1,377 damage. So you only increased your damage output by 1377/1359-1 = 1.32%.

theosymphany

@pengustrike

Firstly thank you for pointing out the omission of the 0.15 in the second example. Generally 15% is the base combat advantage factor applied to all instance of crit damage. While it was included in the equations 2.3 and 2.4 I left it out of the example which follows. This is now fixed in both the post and the guide.

I agree with you that it is strange that equation 2.3 is additive and 2.4 is multiplicative. These equations are derived empirically (ie from data) and equation 2.3 simply will not fit the data for crit hits, nor will equation 2.4 fit data for non critical hits. As such the formulae are different because they represent the best way I know thus far for fitting all the data with the 3 or 4 variables pertaining to combat advantage.

Fact is the formulae are different because the in game data leads me to believe the underlying mechanics ARE different. I don't know whether this was a mistake in the implementation of crit CA calculation or is working as intended to prevent crit and CA being too powerful. You have to ask the devs for that.

I would welcome any helpful suggestions and prospective equations you came up with which could fit the data better.

@kozi001
Yep, abaddon523 answered correctly. 167 power is equal to 1% extra damage if and ONLY if your power is zero. As your base power increases, although the absolute gain in damage output remains the same, the percentage gain is diminished.

lassebierstroem

Hi Theosymphany,

i have an additional question concerning equation 2.3 (CA damage for non crit hits) and equation 5.1 (Damage in PVE, non crit)


Equation 2.3

Total damage when CA is granted = base damage * 1.15 * (1+ CHA bonus%) * (1+ CAbonus %) * (1+ blink dog %)

Equation 5.1

Actual Damage = base ability damage * crit severity * buff bonus * defense debuff bonus * booster debuff bonus * DR reduction * combat advantage

Damage = [C1* (1+(STAT-10)/100)* ((1+WD*0.00846)* (0.9+rank/10) * (1+power*0.00006))] * (1+Σ buff bonuses%) * (1+ Σ booster debuff multipliers %) * (1+ Σ defense debuff multipliers %) * (1+ your RI% - enemy DR %) * [1+0.15 *(1+(CHA-10)/100+ other CA bonus %)]


I have marked calculation units which seem to me equivalent with the same color. The CA unit in equation 2.3 isnt the same as it is equation 5.1. I have never taken data with and without CA to give hard evidence, but i think the CA unit in equation 2.3 is overestimated. The CA unit in equation 5.1 seem to me more in line with the damage in game.

Can u explain the differences?

theosymphany

Good catch, equation 5.1 was the 'older' version of the formulae. That formula was what we used to use, however I was finding that it didn't fit parsed data well at all and is out by a fair bit which is why we retested. I'll go ahead and update the post.

Since reparsing and refitting the model based on data provided by the community I would say equations 2.3 and 2.4 are a lot more predictive in actual damage increase (within 1-2% accuracy). If you are using ACT it will not tell you how much the CA boost was since it counts as a buff to base damage with internal rather than external damage modifiers. The formulae fitted data parses by both CW and TR characters.

If you have data that the formulae didn't fit I'm happy to look over it with you. You will need to separate the data into 4 rows: no crit, no CA; no crit with CA; crit with no CA and crit with CA and fit the data separately as well as note down your total crit severity, charisma, CAbonus stat and pets. Also bear in mind that if you have self/party buffs that proc inconsistently (eg wild hunt rider buff, hallowed ground etc) they will interfere with the calculations and invalidate the data set.

armadeonx

Does anyone have a link to the main doc? I can't find it now - please pm it if necc

thefiresidecat

given it's age I"m guessing it's no longer relevant. too many changes in mechanics since that was written.

niadan

Very much out of date. However you can find the updated information for the topics discussed in this guide in the guides section of the forums. Buffs, debuffs, damage calculations, etc. Also @thefabricant has an updated (pre mod 12) mechanics guide for CWs in the CW thread.

beckylunatic

Here is an archived version. http://archive.is/Fz1B5

You can always web search Kaelac+guide to try to find places where people have saved his work.

A gentle suggestion if this thread is deemed lock-worthy is to at least leave the info about how to find Theosymphany/Kaelac's old work in place. He was a legend and people are always going to be curious to see these guides, even though they're outdated. Despite the old info, they are still models of solid testing.

Note to thread, Kaelac left us in model 5 (a victim of his PhD more than anything NW ever did, I believe), and while his stuff is still interesting to read, consider it like looking through a very old science textbook. Interesting as a historical reference, but not a good idea to base your current work on.

rjc9000

*prepares joke about necromancers, realizes Sharp has proof of a certain theorycrafter logging on again...*

armadeonx

Thanks for the info the thing I'm specifically interested in is Threat and the mechanics associated with it. I'm guessing that's probably one of very few things that's not changed.

armadeonx

Aagh I can't find it in there, maybe it's on something else he did. I saw an excerpt on Reddit which I'll post below, but it's really useful for pally discussions I'm having:

quote:
There are 3 kinds of threat in NW.
Damage (D) - You gain 1 point of this when you deal 1 point of damage.
Healing (H) - You gain 1 point of this when you heal an ally for 1 point of damage. This threat is divided by the number of foes you are in combat with. So if I heal an ally for 1000 and there are ten foes, each would get 100.
Threat (T) - You gain 1 point of this when we use a special command to cause you to generate threat. Many of your powers that generate bonus threat use this, and it should be treated exactly like damage except that you can't see it
Although not officially listed, there is still proximity threat. If you enter within combat range of a mob and loiter they will start attacking and chasing you even if you don't take any action. You see this behaviour in zone mobs. Typically this is within 10 feet.
Threat value on target calculation
D + H + T = Hate (a shorthand name devs use for your threat value).
Now, if you have the most Hate on a target (or are the foe's current target more specifically) your calculation changes slightly. It becomes
(D + H + T) * 1.1 = Hate.

micky1p00

@armadeonx

You probably looking for this:

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/comment/4239472

7th post, second by gentlemancrush

armadeonx

micky1p00 said:

@armadeonx

You probably looking for this:

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/comment/4239472

7th post, second by gentlemancrush

Aaaah yes thank you, that's it exactly - the post I saw wrongly accredited the source Thanks for that.

I assume it hasn't changed at all since he wrote that.

pitshade

Ah, I had misunderstood Heal threat. There was a change made in Beta or Mod 0 because healing threat made DCs basically hard taunting everything. I had thought that the threat was being shared equally with the healed person, reducing the threat level of the healer. But if the reduction is based on number of enemy mobs, that makes more sense when looking at my DC's aggro in NDEMO.

thefiresidecat

it used to really irritate me that my dc could easily get more threat than the tank. something changed somewhere though. it's not so anymore. maybe it's the higher damage we deal now or something.

doidodasalsa

page not found

rjc9000

doidodasalsa#5488 said:

page not found

This is from Mod 5, or Rise of Tiamat launch day. Kaelac's gone missing thanks to PHD and the website this was hosted on got taken down. And, besides, this guide is outdated.

I don't know why we keep necro-ing this thread.

<.<

zebular

Closing this up now as the OP hasn't posted in this thread or updated it for three years. @theosymphany - if you wish this to be re-opened to update it, please contact any Moderator and we'll be happy to oblige! Thanks!