The same exact thing happened with the diablo 3 gold/real money auction house.
They tampered with it (hoping the inflation would not offset the benefits) and it was a complete failure. The problem was left untouched, and it had an immediate effect on devaluing everything in the economy.
I say learn from history and stop making the same stupid mistakes. Don't change the 500ad/zen limit, instead put in some AD sinks, some BIS gear/items/companions/mounts/services that are easily purchasable through AD.
Incorporate a rank 11 enchantment before you tinker with the 500ad/zen cap.
Yes, Coal Wards going from 270,000 on Monday to 500,000 3 days later is ''fine''. . .
I think it is all in perspective.
If you lived in a world where some people had months to make and abuse thousands of praybot characters for the 7/7 invocation reward (back when coal words dropped like flies) and then had it changed, it wouldn't be fine to you.
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
There's a significant demand for Zen, and not enough supply.
Also, in regards to this now that I am home and not on my lunch break...
There are two sides to that coin.
When you say there is a lot of demand for Zen it by definition means there is not a lot of demand for AD.
Every suggestion not centered around increasing demand for AD is just a bandaid which will cause inflation. What happens if they increase the cap and in a month it hits the new cap? That will happen if the cap is increased but the desire for AD is not increased.
And that disregards the very likely possibility that players will leave the game. The AD Farmers do not care how much time it takes to earn Zen equivilencies because they are not putting the time and effort into it. The actual players playing the game are the ones who will feel the pain of AD deflation the most.
Seriously, every suggestion which doesn't address increasing the value of the time you put into the game is 100% missing the only possible problem with the system at the moment. It is not a complicated concept that in order for Zen to be put on the market for AD the AD has to be desirable. If the majority of people only look at AD as a means to get Zen then there is no reason for them to trade Zen for AD.
I've done the same thing. I've not bought one lick of zen since it rose above around 360 per. Passed that point. its not happening to me. And its never going to happen.
Since the AD/ZEN is maxed out at the moment. The Zen buyers to make more AD will just buy essentials like Protection Wards and sell them way over the current 100 ZEn = 50k AD mark. So in reply to your post and the one you "reply with Quote" = You are just giving them even more AD then the ZEN would cost.
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Lol, I'm sorry but this was so funny to me for some reason.
Ontopic, Didn't they directly effect the market by introducing zen items that'll wreck the economy in the first place? :rolleyes:
Also they could do like the government and give out zen stimulus packages to revitalize the economy.
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Mod 3 comes out and everyone wants Zen to buy the new Black Ice boosters and whatever - so the Astral Diamond-to-Zen ratio jumps up to 500/1 - it becomes a Zen Seller's market. Now all that Zen that was being sold is depleted - there just isn't much Zen being sold - so the conversion rate remains at a 500/1 ratio (or close to it).
This also means there is a massive influx of Astral Diamonds into the game. People who were skating by on 500k to 1 million AD are now sitting pretty at 2 million or 5 million or more Astral Diamonds. The people selling stuff on the Auction House see this and they are pushing the prices up. People with a lot more AD than they had before are still buying these things; it's easier to pay they higher prices because they now have so much AD on hand.
This jacks the entire AH average sell price upward.
there is no massive influx of AD...all the AD that's traded for zen was ALREADY in game
I agree with this - as for the AD already being in-game - remember it's now (may be) in the hands of new (different) users who may not usually have so much - so it's easier to just buy-out at higher prices, further driving AH prices upward.
Also, in regards to this now that I am home and not on my lunch break...
There are two sides to that coin.
When you say there is a lot of demand for Zen it by definition means there is not a lot of demand for AD.
Every suggestion not centered around increasing demand for AD is just a bandaid which will cause inflation. What happens if they increase the cap and in a month it hits the new cap? That will happen if the cap is increased but the desire for AD is not increased.
And that disregards the very likely possibility that players will leave the game. The AD Farmers do not care how much time it takes to earn Zen equivilencies because they are not putting the time and effort into it. The actual players playing the game are the ones who will feel the pain of AD deflation the most.
Seriously, every suggestion which doesn't address increasing the value of the time you put into the game is 100% missing the only possible problem with the system at the moment. It is not a complicated concept that in order for Zen to be put on the market for AD the AD has to be desirable. If the majority of people only look at AD as a means to get Zen then there is no reason for them to trade Zen for AD.
I never suggested raising the cap. My arguments about the minimum wage were secular. Instead of raising the cap, I suggested two things:
1) Significant ZEN sale (perhaps +25% or more "bonus" ZEN) to infuse ZEN into the ZAX or...
2) Have Cryptic give a "stimulus" of ZEN into the market themselves to get the pipes flowing.
Cool. *fist bump* Trace
Edit: As of this writing, the current backlog is for over 1,000,000 ZEN.
AD sinks won't help anything in the long run.
As long as there are single accounts playing the market with 350 million astral diamonds buying 700+k Zen as soon as it hits the market for 500 AD a piece, then astral diamond sinks wont help. These accounts have so much in them that they throw the whole auction house out of whack. They hold so many resources that the top 5 probably have more influence on market prices than 90% of the rest of the server.
Put limits on how many zen you can have at once, or how many transactions you can put on AH daily.
50 transactions a day would be plenty for most people while it would surely put a cramp in any computer driven auction house exploit.
Seriously who needs 700,000 zen or a third of a billion Astral diamonds? People who sell it in world chat thats who.
If there was interesting thigns to get with AD that wasn't overly priced then I think people would care more for AD, but most of the things that can be bought up with AD are either too expensive or not interesting enough, that's why people only use it to get Z in the first place.
I'd love to upgrade my companions, maybe I'd spend 500k on it if it would allow me to upgrade more than one and more than once, but I won't spend 300k just to upgrade him from white to green. So I spend nothing on it.
Also, I'd love to customize my outfit, I would regularly spend 50k or something by changing my whole outfit if that wasn't the price for a single piece. So I spend nothing (I've done it only once a few months ago).
Since the AD/ZEN is maxed out at the moment. The Zen buyers to make more AD will just buy essentials like Protection Wards and sell them way over the current 100 ZEn = 50k AD mark. So in reply to your post and the one you "reply with Quote" = You are just giving them even more AD then the ZEN would cost.
They can do that if they want. I am not in any hurry to get cheap preservation wards. When preservation wards get out of line, I wont buy those either. I can get by without preservation wards. When the sellers start getting greedy, I'll cease to buy the products. Simple as that.
It's not directly interacting with it. For all intents and purposes the cap is minimum wage.
You are asking for Cryptic/PWE to print money when they don't like the player market. Not hard to see what causes more issues. Minimum wage is a good thing. Printing money to tamper with a market is never a good thing.
That is how the real world markets work. You alter the money supply to help with the float.
Right now we are capped at 500. The backlog of orders is huge. All they need to do is inject Zen into the market and fill at least some of those orders. As the market stabilizes they can slowly pull the zen back out by working the opposite side of the market.
Sellers should stop being greedy and also stop to, inflate everything artificially. The cap is 500, live with it.
Why should it be the sellers responsibility? Each person should do what ever helps them progress more. Nothings really artificially inflated though. Things are only at the value people are willing to pay, unfortunately with the way things are too many people wanna buy zen with ad and not enough want to sell it, it's not the sellers responsibility to meet the demand. Things are never perfect, but whether you live in a capitalist place or out in the wild, you have to compete to come out on top or lose out being out on bottom. It's just life. That's not saying things can't be done to improve things, but ad needs to be an attractive option instead of just a trading tool.
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
All they need to do is inject Zen into the market and fill at least some of those orders. As the market stabilizes they can slowly pull the zen back out by working the opposite side of the market.
No. They really don't need to hand out money.
They need to make AD worth buying and thus less worth selling.
Nor does what you state happen in the real world. What you are asking for is for the government to literally print and hand out money. That has never and will never happen.
That is how the real world markets work. You alter the money supply to help with the float.
Right now we are capped at 500. The backlog of orders is huge. All they need to do is inject Zen into the market and fill at least some of those orders. As the market stabilizes they can slowly pull the zen back out by working the opposite side of the market.
IMO injecting Zen into the market is only going to help stabilize the 500 cap price. All that is going to do is allow people to sell MORE zen at that price. That'll show, repeatedly, that they can so why drop it? The only way to drop it is to convince players to stop purchasing zen at that price and force. If people take out their orders, there would be a very clear indication that there wasn't a demand for it and the price would drop.
As it is, whether you're filling the order for the 1 mil requested, or placing another, you're perpetuating the cap.
Thats my 2¢
contents to be decided
0
lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
edited June 2014
They might create a parallel currency: actual Zen is only bought by $$$ and the new currency bought with AD, items in the zen shop could be bought with both currencies but the new one might cost X times more. In this way, 1) works as AD sink, 2) game will keep his "free 2 play" status, you don't have to use $$$ but you need to grind like a maniac, 3) people will be interested in investing $$$ once they see how expensive is to get stuff with astral diamonds.
Nor does what you state happen in the real world. What you are asking for is for the government to literally print and hand out money. That has never and will never happen.
Of course it does. Look up monetary policy. The central banks do this all the time to not only influence interests rates but to enable banks to have enough money to cover unexpected withdrawals etc.
Why do you consider it "handing" out money. They aren't handing out anything. They would just be facilitating transactions that would otherwise not be able to occur at the current time. Once the market stabilizes they can then start pulling out the "extra" zen they injected to allow the market to operate. There would be no net difference in total AD or zen compared to where things are before they did it.
Creating other desirable uses for AD is great, but that is not going to happen quickly. Right now the market has over 1M unfulfilled orders.
the problem with the current AD "explosion" and AD/ZEN is that the almost ALL things that are purchased through ZEN can be sold to other players for AD.
Explain: normally in other MMOs you have a cash shop. Buy cash coins, use cash shop, eventually sell cash items for ingame currency.
In this case we can "buy back" the cash coins through ingame currency, but not to the system (AD "sink"), but to other players. Meaning that apart from very very few things, the vast majority (>90%?) of the AD in the market never "exits" said market.
That's why at a certain point we have people with ubertrillions of AD and the ZAX completely blocked.
In short, we have a not so broken AD generator, but a very broken AD sinker.
Lol, I'm sorry but this was so funny to me for some reason.
Ontopic, Didn't they directly effect the market by introducing zen items that'll wreck the economy in the first place? :rolleyes:
Also they could do like the government and give out zen stimulus packages to revitalize the economy.
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0
reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
Yeah. We have AD sinks. But sinks dont work if people are not willing to use them. No one would buy a loaf of bread for 50 dollars.
The AD sinks are indeed broken in that regard.
0
degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
They need to make AD worth buying and thus less worth selling.
Nor does what you state happen in the real world. What you are asking for is for the government to literally print and hand out money. That has never and will never happen.
This happens all the time in the real world. Do you have any idea how our financial system works? New money is printed (electronically and paper) and given to certain entities (often banks) to inject into the financial system. I'm not asking Cryptic to give me free ZEN. I'm asking Cryptic to consider the idea of injection ZEN into the economy so I have something to purchase with my AD.
The moderator saying that cryptic shouldnt play with the market.
They do it all the time:
items bought with glory could be sold at AH before, not anymore its bound, therefore price of those items went up.
now they are doing the same with coalescent ward, and by the way those are the bottleneck of the global economy in this game. So Everything gonna go even higher in price.
If everything cost more in AD, its not because those items worth more sudently, its because the value of AD is going down. Soon buying Zen will be more advantageous
But in the end, youll get way less for your REAL money than before.
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Yeah. We have AD sinks. But sinks dont work if people are not willing to use them. No one would buy a loaf of bread for 50 dollars.
The AD sinks are indeed broken in that regard.
Actually, in Zimbabwe, you would be paying about $50 for a loaf of bread. Or much, much more, in fact. In 2008, the estimated rate of inflation was 89,700,000,000,000,000,000,000%. Not a typo there - that's 20 zeroes.
This happens all the time in the real world. Do you have any idea how our financial system works? New money is printed (electronically and paper) and given to certain entities (often banks) to inject into the financial system. I'm not asking Cryptic to give me free ZEN. I'm asking Cryptic to consider the idea of injection ZEN into the economy so I have something to purchase with my AD.
You compared this situation to real world banks with lots of other variables involved, but I think we can make a better comparison namely the diablo 3 real money auction house wherein people sold gold for dollars.
What happened when they changed the cap to combat third party gold sellers? It immediately devalued the worth of gold by alot. It didn't help the situation much because they failed to solve the underlying problem, people didn't want the gold anymore.
Make more ad sinks, make AD relevant. Introduce rank 11-15 enchantments, legendary upgrades for mounts/companions at a reasonable ad price, services at a reasonable cost in AD. Do those first before you tinker with the cap.
Let's not make the stupid mistakes again and learn from history. This same thing already happened 2 years ago.
And to others in this thread, please enough with the comparisons to real world countries wherein there are dozens and dozens of known and unknown factors contributing to the economic winds.
0
degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You compared this situation to real world banks with lots of other variables involved, but I think we can make a better comparison namely the diablo 3 real money auction house wherein people sold gold for dollars.
What happened when they changed the cap to combat third party gold sellers? It immediately devalued the worth of gold by alot. It didn't help the situation much because they failed to solve the underlying problem, people didn't want the gold anymore.
Make more ad sinks, make AD relevant. Introduce rank 11-15 enchantments, legendary upgrades for mounts/companions at a reasonable ad price, services at a reasonable cost in AD. Do those first before you tinker with the cap.
Let's not make the stupid mistakes again and learn from history. This same thing already happened 2 years ago.
And to others in this thread, please enough with the comparisons to real world countries wherein there are dozens and dozens of known and unknown factors contributing to the economic winds.
Real world comparisons are fine and accurate. You just like being defiant.
Real world comparisons are fine and accurate. You just like being defiant.
Why make a real world comparison when a better one is at hand?
Diablo 3 real money auction house.
Why do we have to go to great lengths and ignore tons of political, environmental, sociocultural variables to support our cause, when we can just look at an easy example?
This question is also posed to the other idiots trying to compare neverwinter to zimbabwe's.
I mean really, its not that hard guys. We already had this happen. Think!
Comments
That will just allow the inflation to get out of control and well beyond recovery then.
They tampered with it (hoping the inflation would not offset the benefits) and it was a complete failure. The problem was left untouched, and it had an immediate effect on devaluing everything in the economy.
I say learn from history and stop making the same stupid mistakes. Don't change the 500ad/zen limit, instead put in some AD sinks, some BIS gear/items/companions/mounts/services that are easily purchasable through AD.
Incorporate a rank 11 enchantment before you tinker with the 500ad/zen cap.
I think it is all in perspective.
If you lived in a world where some people had months to make and abuse thousands of praybot characters for the 7/7 invocation reward (back when coal words dropped like flies) and then had it changed, it wouldn't be fine to you.
Also, in regards to this now that I am home and not on my lunch break...
There are two sides to that coin.
When you say there is a lot of demand for Zen it by definition means there is not a lot of demand for AD.
Every suggestion not centered around increasing demand for AD is just a bandaid which will cause inflation. What happens if they increase the cap and in a month it hits the new cap? That will happen if the cap is increased but the desire for AD is not increased.
And that disregards the very likely possibility that players will leave the game. The AD Farmers do not care how much time it takes to earn Zen equivilencies because they are not putting the time and effort into it. The actual players playing the game are the ones who will feel the pain of AD deflation the most.
Seriously, every suggestion which doesn't address increasing the value of the time you put into the game is 100% missing the only possible problem with the system at the moment. It is not a complicated concept that in order for Zen to be put on the market for AD the AD has to be desirable. If the majority of people only look at AD as a means to get Zen then there is no reason for them to trade Zen for AD.
Since the AD/ZEN is maxed out at the moment. The Zen buyers to make more AD will just buy essentials like Protection Wards and sell them way over the current 100 ZEn = 50k AD mark. So in reply to your post and the one you "reply with Quote" = You are just giving them even more AD then the ZEN would cost.
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Ontopic, Didn't they directly effect the market by introducing zen items that'll wreck the economy in the first place? :rolleyes:
Also they could do like the government and give out zen stimulus packages to revitalize the economy.
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Baby Cakes, lvl 60 GWF.
*******, lvl 60 TR.
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There is NO pvp in Neverwinter.
I never suggested raising the cap. My arguments about the minimum wage were secular. Instead of raising the cap, I suggested two things:
1) Significant ZEN sale (perhaps +25% or more "bonus" ZEN) to infuse ZEN into the ZAX or...
2) Have Cryptic give a "stimulus" of ZEN into the market themselves to get the pipes flowing.
Cool. *fist bump* Trace
Edit: As of this writing, the current backlog is for over 1,000,000 ZEN.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
I'd love to upgrade my companions, maybe I'd spend 500k on it if it would allow me to upgrade more than one and more than once, but I won't spend 300k just to upgrade him from white to green. So I spend nothing on it.
Also, I'd love to customize my outfit, I would regularly spend 50k or something by changing my whole outfit if that wasn't the price for a single piece. So I spend nothing (I've done it only once a few months ago).
They can do that if they want. I am not in any hurry to get cheap preservation wards. When preservation wards get out of line, I wont buy those either. I can get by without preservation wards. When the sellers start getting greedy, I'll cease to buy the products. Simple as that.
That is how the real world markets work. You alter the money supply to help with the float.
Right now we are capped at 500. The backlog of orders is huge. All they need to do is inject Zen into the market and fill at least some of those orders. As the market stabilizes they can slowly pull the zen back out by working the opposite side of the market.
Why should it be the sellers responsibility? Each person should do what ever helps them progress more. Nothings really artificially inflated though. Things are only at the value people are willing to pay, unfortunately with the way things are too many people wanna buy zen with ad and not enough want to sell it, it's not the sellers responsibility to meet the demand. Things are never perfect, but whether you live in a capitalist place or out in the wild, you have to compete to come out on top or lose out being out on bottom. It's just life. That's not saying things can't be done to improve things, but ad needs to be an attractive option instead of just a trading tool.
They need to make AD worth buying and thus less worth selling.
Nor does what you state happen in the real world. What you are asking for is for the government to literally print and hand out money. That has never and will never happen.
IMO injecting Zen into the market is only going to help stabilize the 500 cap price. All that is going to do is allow people to sell MORE zen at that price. That'll show, repeatedly, that they can so why drop it? The only way to drop it is to convince players to stop purchasing zen at that price and force. If people take out their orders, there would be a very clear indication that there wasn't a demand for it and the price would drop.
As it is, whether you're filling the order for the 1 mil requested, or placing another, you're perpetuating the cap.
Thats my 2¢
Of course it does. Look up monetary policy. The central banks do this all the time to not only influence interests rates but to enable banks to have enough money to cover unexpected withdrawals etc.
Why do you consider it "handing" out money. They aren't handing out anything. They would just be facilitating transactions that would otherwise not be able to occur at the current time. Once the market stabilizes they can then start pulling out the "extra" zen they injected to allow the market to operate. There would be no net difference in total AD or zen compared to where things are before they did it.
Creating other desirable uses for AD is great, but that is not going to happen quickly. Right now the market has over 1M unfulfilled orders.
Explain: normally in other MMOs you have a cash shop. Buy cash coins, use cash shop, eventually sell cash items for ingame currency.
In this case we can "buy back" the cash coins through ingame currency, but not to the system (AD "sink"), but to other players. Meaning that apart from very very few things, the vast majority (>90%?) of the AD in the market never "exits" said market.
That's why at a certain point we have people with ubertrillions of AD and the ZAX completely blocked.
In short, we have a not so broken AD generator, but a very broken AD sinker.
LOL! zen stimulus package! That's a good one.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
The AD sinks are indeed broken in that regard.
This happens all the time in the real world. Do you have any idea how our financial system works? New money is printed (electronically and paper) and given to certain entities (often banks) to inject into the financial system. I'm not asking Cryptic to give me free ZEN. I'm asking Cryptic to consider the idea of injection ZEN into the economy so I have something to purchase with my AD.
Here's how Central Banks work.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
They do it all the time:
items bought with glory could be sold at AH before, not anymore its bound, therefore price of those items went up.
now they are doing the same with coalescent ward, and by the way those are the bottleneck of the global economy in this game. So Everything gonna go even higher in price.
If everything cost more in AD, its not because those items worth more sudently, its because the value of AD is going down. Soon buying Zen will be more advantageous
But in the end, youll get way less for your REAL money than before.
Santa Claus --GF
Gargamel --CW
Actually, in Zimbabwe, you would be paying about $50 for a loaf of bread. Or much, much more, in fact. In 2008, the estimated rate of inflation was 89,700,000,000,000,000,000,000%. Not a typo there - that's 20 zeroes.
Welcome to the world of hyperinflation.
You compared this situation to real world banks with lots of other variables involved, but I think we can make a better comparison namely the diablo 3 real money auction house wherein people sold gold for dollars.
What happened when they changed the cap to combat third party gold sellers? It immediately devalued the worth of gold by alot. It didn't help the situation much because they failed to solve the underlying problem, people didn't want the gold anymore.
Make more ad sinks, make AD relevant. Introduce rank 11-15 enchantments, legendary upgrades for mounts/companions at a reasonable ad price, services at a reasonable cost in AD. Do those first before you tinker with the cap.
Let's not make the stupid mistakes again and learn from history. This same thing already happened 2 years ago.
And to others in this thread, please enough with the comparisons to real world countries wherein there are dozens and dozens of known and unknown factors contributing to the economic winds.
Real world comparisons are fine and accurate. You just like being defiant.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
Why make a real world comparison when a better one is at hand?
Diablo 3 real money auction house.
Why do we have to go to great lengths and ignore tons of political, environmental, sociocultural variables to support our cause, when we can just look at an easy example?
This question is also posed to the other idiots trying to compare neverwinter to zimbabwe's.
I mean really, its not that hard guys. We already had this happen. Think!