Please. Do you know how inexpensive the total cost of enchanting is compared to before the refining changes? P. Vorpals were selling for 8kk-11kk AD. Even if C. Wards settled around 400k AD, that's not a deal breaker by any means.
Thank you.
The total cost for making perfect enchantments is 4M less than it was before. If the drop rates were not reduced coal wards would be worthless.
The conspiracy theories are so outlandish it isn't funny. Regardless of the increase in individual coal ward prices the prices to refine high end enchantments is far lower than it was before. There's no form of reality where lowering the cost of something translates to Cryptic trying to get players to pay money to advance.
Please, please, please stop looking at the economy with a microscope and look at the big picture. The costs were cut in half even though individual prices went up.
You should know by now not to try an preach valid economic theory... everything before beta was awesome and new, everthing since has been so aweful to destroy the game completely. I'm probably old and senile, but it seems to me the game is going strong - stronger than ever - so I just wish people would dispense with all this doom and gloom.
Please. Do you know how inexpensive the total cost of enchanting is compared to before the refining changes? P. Vorpals were selling for 8kk-11kk AD. Even if C. Wards settled around 400k AD, that's not a deal breaker by any means.
The thing is when we joined, the entry market to get lesser enchants was fairly reasonable and it was relatively easy to get free wards every now and then. 100k and you get your lesser. We then get a new refinement system that benefits the ones that already have lessers-greaters and it really shines at reducing the cost of perfects. The higher and harder coal wards are to get, the more of the lower (and more popular I assume) end will get pushed out. Especially if they can't farm as much as we used to. At that price it really would be a worse system though as it only benefits perfect enchantments, and doesn't really help rank 10s so much or anything less than perfect but adds a lot of effort into refining the items, some of which is less infuriating because bots sell whole stacks of refining items. The newbies have a different outlook, we gradually managed to get better enchants, while they have a massive roadblock for them to even get their first one.
I can see those players having a harder time as time goes by and I don't envy them unless things change in some way (decreased farming rates becoming the norm and coal ward keeping their 1k zen price with next to impossible drop rates). I think we got time till it reaches that high though if it ever does. It took longer than I though for it to go from 100 to 200.
Please. Do you know how inexpensive the total cost of enchanting is compared to before the refining changes? P. Vorpals were selling for 8kk-11kk AD. Even if C. Wards settled around 400k AD, that's not a deal breaker by any means.
It's not really conspiracy to think the CWards are supposed to cost 400k in the end. Every cash shop item sells for the AD equivalent of its ZEN (dependent on the ZAX and former sells). Only the Coals don't. So regardless whether you're a fan of the move, it makes sense.
Also pointing out how beneficial the new system is vs. the old system is weaksauce, stop it already. The old system was a complete joke in terms of how long it took to get your Perfect Enchantment for everybody but the power players. I can't recall all the math, but I believe smart folks were talking years. So it had to be done something to widen the availability. It was mandatory, not a gracious gift.
Of course it depends on who you think should be able to get a Perfect Enchantment in what time and that's a discussion beyond this thread. I think most people lunge at the rising Coal price because it's the one item they can't farm in a reasonable period and have to buy. Shards, no problem. Refining gems, check. Potencys as well. But you only get one CWard per 20 weeks of praying on average so here is your bottleneck.
The new system is great if you already had your normal/greater enchant. If you didn't, then the old system was better.
So it shouldn't come as a surprise that the older, established players are defending the new system.
I have seen plenty of people nowadays, newer players, who have decent gear but no enchants. Because they can't get a Coal Ward.
It really is an ingenious system. Cryptic figured out that they likely aren't going to get much more real cash from the established players, since there isn't much more they are willing to spend real money on, so they have to squeeze newer players for money. Hence, devise a system that benefits older players (so they will stick around) but costs newer players (so they will spend cash).
And I would not mind SO much, if it didn't require a coal ward to even get 1 armor/weapon enchant. Perhaps if the success rate for the Lesser enchant was only, say, 10% instead of 1%, so a player could realistically use Preservation Wards instead in order to get just the lesser version (and then everything else is 1% chance).
The total cost for making perfect enchantments is 4M less than it was before. If the drop rates were not reduced coal wards would be worthless.
First of all, I in no way support this specific conspiracy.
Now then, I agree with him though regarding the current pricing of coal wards. I do not think that coal wards would be worthless. Are dragon eggs worthless? (They did the same thing to dragon eggs 7 months ago.) The answer to both is no. I believe the price will drop and stabilize at around 50k if that were the case which seems fair. More people could actually use them as intended. Right now, coal wards are being used to manipulate the market and for underground trading. None of which cryptic, nor the majority of the players, are benefitting from. In fact, it hurts them.
The only logical counter to my argument is that Cryptic is hell-bent on upholding that 1000zen price tag at the zen store. In that case, I would like to say I hope they change their minds regarding that.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited May 2014
In an MMO every item that enters the system effects the economic value of an item.
Whether they land in your lap without a direct cost or not they still have a value because the fact is if you acquire an item you are no longer in demand of that item.
The very fact the items exist effects the market value. If you no longer need them you won't even be tempted to buy them. This means the price goes down. And this can easily cause a downward spiral in prices.
And sort of like getting a hair cut you can always add more but you can never take out. Just a small amount more can easily upset the balance and send the value to nothing...
And it is important to remember enchantments don't bind. As more and more enchantments are made the demand for new ones goes down further and further.
In an MMO every item that enters the system effects the economic value of an item.
Whether they land in your lap without a direct cost or not they still have a value because the fact is if you acquire an item you are no longer in demand of that item.
The very fact the items exist effects the market value. If you no longer need them you won't even be tempted to buy them. This means the price goes down. And this can easily cause a downward spiral in prices.
Correct but we already have precedence for this. Dragon Eggs!
Theoretically, each character needs 2-4 dragon eggs (1 shirt and 1 pants + accounting for 60% chance failure) while they would need around 30 coal wards (if my math is correct) to get their weapon and armor enchants. This is a generalization but you get the picture: people needs a heck more of coal wards than dragon eggs. A LOT MORE.
Did dragon eggs become worthless? Nope. They are going strong at 40k. How many events happened to greatly infuse thousands of dragon eggs into the community? 3 of them. How many tymora boxes were in the circulation/AH due to ahem people farming using shady methods? Tens of thousands if not hundreds. Go back 1 month, how many 999x tymora boxes were on the auction house? Don't forget we've had 4x cycles of lockboxes that drop profession packs which have dragon eggs in it.
With all that being said, did dragon eggs prices spiral down? Nope. Did alchemy assets? Yup.
You know the difference? One of them is useful the other is trash.
So long as coal wards are useful, Cryptic will be able to cautiously sprinkle in events here and there to have them drop so that more players will use them up more for what is intended: fusing enchantments
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Correct but we already have precedence for this. Dragon Eggs!
Theoretically, each character needs 2-4 dragon eggs (1 shirt and 1 pants + accounting for 60% chance failure) while they would need around 30 coal wards (if my math is correct) to get their weapon and armor enchants. This is a generalization but you get the picture: people needs a heck more of coal wards than dragon eggs. A LOT MORE.
This is quite untrue. Technically, I need neither C. Wards or Dragon Eggs to get Weapon/Armor Enchantments and shirt/pants. I can simply buy them off the AH.
"But that costs a lot of AD! It's not fair! I have rights!" I know, it's so hard playing a game that's almost 100% F2P with no way to make AD.
In fact, in many cases it's better to buy the premade item instead of making it yourself. Take, for instance, that P. Vorpals are selling for 6kk AD on the AH. If I wanted to make my own from two Greater Vorpals, it would cost me 2.9kk (x2) + a C. Ward + Marks of Potency + refinement items.
I'd rather buy the P. Vorpal outright and save all the time, trouble and AD.
This is quite untrue. Technically, I need neither C. Wards or Dragon Eggs to get Weapon/Armor Enchantments and shirt/pants. I can simply buy them off the AH.
"But that costs a lot of AD! It's not fair! I have rights!" I know, it's so hard playing a game that's almost 100% F2P with no way to make AD.
In fact, in many cases it's better to buy the premade item instead of making it yourself. Take, for instance, that P. Vorpals are selling for 6kk AD on the AH. If I wanted to make my own from two Greater Vorpals, it would cost me 2.9kk (x2) + a C. Ward + Marks of Potency + refinement items.
I'd rather buy the P. Vorpal outright and save all the time, trouble and AD.
That's how the game looks from the top, completely different story for lower tier players.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
That's how the game looks from the top, completely different story for lower tier players.
Lobo, do you know that I am 100% F2P? Do you know that I started, like everyone else, with two character slots and a rental horse? I remember how momentous it was when I got my Rank 7s! And then later getting a Greater Vorpal! I was elated!
You can either invest time or money (or both) into this game. I've chosen to invest time. Please check out my guide if you want further ideas on how to make AD outside of DD farming. C. Ward prices are nominal in the grand scheme of the NW economy.
Know what else? I've seen people come and go who've dropped hundreds and (get this) thousands of dollars into this game! The wanted the best and they wanted it now. Honestly, I don't believe any of them are still around. I value my account highly because I've worked my cyber-butt off to get it where it is.
Lobo, do you know that I am 100% F2P? Do you know that I started, like everyone else, with two character slots and a rental horse? I remember how momentous it was when I got my Rank 7s! And then later getting a Greater Vorpal! I was elated!
You can either invest time or money (or both) into this game. I've chosen to invest time. Please check out my guide if you want further ideas on how to make AD outside of DD farming. C. Ward prices are nominal in the grand scheme of the NW economy.
I didn't question that. But back then, for us, it felt easier to obtain our first enchant because we didn't have a single paywall. I get why players complain today. I wouldn't want to start fresh these days.
In the grand scheme the pricing might be right, but for lowbies 130k to 260k (soon to be 400k) is massive. That's why people come to the forum and open threads. They don't get Wards from Coffers with that 5% drop rate, look up the AH, see the price and sigh.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited May 2014
It's ten to fifteen days to get enough AD to get a coal ward. That's the perspective of the situation.
It really isn't that hard to get the initial bits if you put the time into it. While I can't say I am 100% free to play I can say that I have never and likely will never buy Zen to buy AD.
The truth is feeling like you have to buy AD with Zen is impatience.
This is quite untrue. Technically, I need neither C. Wards or Dragon Eggs to get Weapon/Armor Enchantments and shirt/pants. I can simply buy them off the AH.
"But that costs a lot of AD! It's not fair! I have rights!" I know, it's so hard playing a game that's almost 100% F2P with no way to make AD.
In fact, in many cases it's better to buy the premade item instead of making it yourself. Take, for instance, that P. Vorpals are selling for 6kk AD on the AH. If I wanted to make my own from two Greater Vorpals, it would cost me 2.9kk (x2) + a C. Ward + Marks of Potency + refinement items.
I'd rather buy the P. Vorpal outright and save all the time, trouble and AD.
Incorrect.
The point I was trying to make was that an event dropping coal wards wouldn't completely destroy its value. It would devalue it to a certain point just as the dragon egg was devalued to a certain point.
I honestly don't care about not being able to afford it. I have more AD than most people here on the forums through various AH manipulation methods not listed in that link. (although you do need a large large large amount of capital I'll say that hence probably why it wasn't a listed method)
edit: PS, buying a perfect vorpal does not save you diamonds, you actually pay more. That's how some people make their AD. They buy the mats in bulk, they craft, and they sell in the auction house at a profit. Right now is not the best time to do so since a lot of factors (such as upcoming lockbox) have temporarily skewed the prices accordingly. But on any other week, that is the case.
Also on another note, it costs you 2.9mil + all those materials just to make a greater vorpal?
This is quite untrue. Technically, I need neither C. Wards or Dragon Eggs to get Weapon/Armor Enchantments and shirt/pants. I can simply buy them off the AH.
"But that costs a lot of AD! It's not fair! I have rights!" I know, it's so hard playing a game that's almost 100% F2P with no way to make AD.
In fact, in many cases it's better to buy the premade item instead of making it yourself. Take, for instance, that P. Vorpals are selling for 6kk AD on the AH. If I wanted to make my own from two Greater Vorpals, it would cost me 2.9kk (x2) + a C. Ward + Marks of Potency + refinement items.
I'd rather buy the P. Vorpal outright and save all the time, trouble and AD.
last i checked, lesser weapon/armor enchants r being sold for more than coal wards. i even waited on buying a lesser bile for prices to drop, but they kept going up to account for the ever increasing prices on wards i guess.
i actually calced it to be cheaper to buy the shards + ward and just make it like that. i even looked further down the line and many higher ranked weapon/armor enchants r being sold for more than it costs to make it (i don't count refining since that's cheap).
It's ten to fifteen days to get enough AD to get a coal ward. That's the perspective of the situation.
It really isn't that hard to get the initial bits if you put the time into it. While I can't say I am 100% free to play I can say that I have never and likely will never buy Zen to buy AD.
The truth is feeling like you have to buy AD with Zen is impatience.
Well like I said above, that wasn't my point. My point was, coal wards have degraded into being used to manipulate the market and to do underground trading (not gonna expand on this due to forum TOS). These two activities do not profit cryptic or majority of the players whatsoever. In fact, it hurts them.
Let's make coal wards more available to more players just as they made dragon eggs (ie gemmed shirts/pants).
I'm not saying increase the invocation drop rate because we don't want/need praybots benefitting the most.
I say either make a new Tymoraesque event that has a small chance of dropping coal wards OR future top end dungeons/skirmishes having a small chance of dropping these wards.
I am ballparking a price of 50k for coal wards in the future would be the sweet spot.
I am ballparking a price of 50k for coal wards in the future would be the sweet spot.
50k is just way too cheap. It still needs to hold up some value. Atm 10 pre wards are 44k ad so it'd be way more efficient than them. You'd be able to make perfect enchants for so little. I'd rather see them capped at around 200k personally although I guess that still wouldn't be thaaaat friendly for newbies.
It's ten to fifteen days to get enough AD to get a coal ward. That's the perspective of the situation.
It really isn't that hard to get the initial bits if you put the time into it. While I can't say I am 100% free to play I can say that I have never and likely will never buy Zen to buy AD.
The truth is feeling like you have to buy AD with Zen is impatience.
Which is 156-250 days to get a perfect (if you're going by refining limit). You'll want 2 of those which gives 1.5 years on the latter to get them just for the coal wards. Kind of a long time...
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited May 2014
Again, would you prefer the 87 coal ward requirement?
How many days is 4M AD? That's the amount of days this new system is saving in terms of perfect enchantment.
Yes lessers are more expensive now but 10-15 days for a lesser is not something to complain about IMO and there is absolutely no justification for complaining about the price of greaters and perfects since the prices are drastically cheaper than they were before.
Again, would you prefer the 87 coal ward requirement?
How many days is 4M AD? That's the amount of days this new system is saving in terms of perfect enchantment.
Yes lessers are more expensive now but 10-15 days for a lesser is not something to complain about IMO and there is absolutely no justification for complaining about the price of greaters and perfects since the prices are drastically cheaper than they were before.
Yeah I just realised that was a pretty silly argument since the point was that it was still easier to get perfects which is exactly what that last point I made was >.>. However practically everything else is worse off though, us older players like it for the perfect weapon/armour enchants, newer players probably hate it. Since the old system meant that coal wards were 100k each so thats 8.5m on wards (I think you needed 85, 1>5>21>85) compared to 3.75m now (at 250k) or 6m at 400k if it ever gets to that point. So it's 400% more expensive to get your first lesser which you could've previously get for free, and only 30% cheaper for a perfect (which was sorely needed) if coal wards do reach the 400k which it very well may eventually since the supply is much lower than the need for them. Of course that's excluding the extra reagents needed nowadays and the extra time it takes.
Now the new system:
1) Costs more for an entry point
2) Allows you not to get free wards unless you're very lucky
3) Is a pain to refine especially for enchants where the shards are not cost effective
4) Gives practically no existing benefit to craft enchants all of the way to rank 10 but a lot more work
5) Is a little less painful when using rp from stacked items that bots farm. (So promotes botting)
6) Requires a lot more bag/bank space if you plan to keep the refinement items
Lets also not forget that it wasn't for the backlash they would kept the ad cost to upgrade too. What makes the new system shine is being able to remove enchants without paying AD. Apart from that it's practically worse in every single way apart from making perfect enchants. The ones that want perfects now are benefiting from it, the ones that aren't near that point have to put up with a worse system for their level. They could've got a lesser in 4 days or for free after 1-5 weeks instead of the 10 it does now and 15 it may go up to.
For me I don't have a problem with it, I made my perfect vorpal with the new system and it was much more accessible and friendly to me because it happened at around the right time while I also managed to farm a decent amount. For newer players it's a big turn off. They have to put up with reduced farming rates which appears to be where the game is headed towards and an increased inflation for entry level. They do however get a cheap way to get rank 7s, but thats due to lockboxes and not the new refinement system. For me, I don't mind, I'm sorted for AD hopefully. That entry cost doesn't affect me. It's not me I'm most concerned about though. I'm concerned there's little cap to how much coal wards will rise apart from the completely ridiculous 1000 zen price. Even if they permanently reduced those I may be happy since they'll be a better limit to how high they'll go. Plus if they did keep rising people might actually be more tempted to buy the **** things. Especially if it reaches the point where the ah is the inefficient place to buy things like other items that players that take advantage of those that don't know about the exchange.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
i even looked further down the line and many higher ranked weapon/armor enchants r being sold for more than it costs to make it (i don't count refining since that's cheap).
That's what I mean about those Perfect Vorpals. Many players will actually take a loss on some of the higher end enchantments to get a pool of AD back.
Why should they do otherwise? The primary goal of any company is to make money.
Now, is this game not playable without AD? Are armour enchant, weapon enchant so necessary? Rank 4 enchants in your slots, five white companions. You'll certainly be able to reach lvl 60. The 9200 GS required for T2 dungeons will be a problem though, you may have to choose GF as a class, their gear has better GS. You will never see mod3 bacause of the required 10200 GS, but why bother, just getting the Sharandar and Dread ring boons will keep you busy for quite a while.
Please. Do you know how inexpensive the total cost of enchanting is compared to before the refining changes? P. Vorpals were selling for 8kk-11kk AD. Even if C. Wards settled around 400k AD, that's not a deal breaker by any means.
That may be but the chance to refine a Perfect V. for free was higher, since Coal wards had a much higher chance to drop from celestial coins invoking chest so Making 2 Perfect Vorpal if you farmed the shards could be made for free in 2 or 3 months paying for itself. Now you get a Coal ward for free every 4, 5 months.
Why should they do otherwise? The primary goal of any company is to make money.
Now, is this game not playable without AD? Are armour enchant, weapon enchant so necessary? Rank 4 enchants in your slots, five white companions. You'll certainly be able to reach lvl 60. The 9200 GS required for T2 dungeons will be a problem though, you may have to choose GF as a class, their gear has better GS. You will never see mod3 bacause of the required 10200 GS, but why bother, just getting the Sharandar and Dread ring boons will keep you busy for quite a while.
This game is pretty enjoyable with very few ADs (let's say just invoking 3x a day for 2k AD, that's certainly not active farming since all it takes is a quick 30 seconds login). R6 enchantments are usually cheap (in the 4-6k range), you have a slight chance to a free coal ward each week, you get green companions (even account-wide) for free with various events or promotions, you don't really need ADs for 95% of the game.
There are very few exceptions where extra DPS you get from highest level enchantments, and armor/weapon enchantments, make a real difference between victory or defeat (ToS and Mad Dragon comes to my mind), in all other cases it means you are just slowed down a bit and you need to pound the boss/adds for a few more minutes.
A civil conspiracy or collusion is an agreement between two or more parties to deprive a third party of legal rights or deceive a third party to obtain an illegal objective.[1] A conspiracy may also refer to a group of people who make an agreement to form a partnership in which each member becomes the agent or partner of every other member and engage in planning or agreeing to commit some act. It is not necessary that the conspirators be involved in all stages of planning or be aware of all details. Any voluntary agreement and some overt act by one conspirator in furthance of the plan are the main elements necessary to prove a conspiracy. A conspiracy may exist whether legal means are used to accomplish illegal results, or illegal means used to accomplish something legal.[2] "Even when no crime is involved, a civil action for conspiracy may be brought by the persons who were damaged."[1]
In the law of tort, the legal elements necessary to establish a civil conspiracy are substantially the same as for establishing a criminal conspiracy, i.e. there is an agreement between two or more natural persons to break the law at some time in the future or to achieve a lawful aim by unlawful means
by litigious--| types
lɪˈtɪdʒəs/Submit
adjective
tending or too ready to take legal action to settle disputes.
"our increasingly litigious society"
concerned with lawsuits or litigation.
suitable to become the subject of a lawsuit.
because it's condescending--|
kɒndɪˈsɛndɪŋ/Submit
adjective
having or showing an attitude of patronizing superiority.
However, I'm pretty much the same.
This thread pretty much points to one thing:
Despite the gradual build up in Coal Ward Prices and the seemingly lower supply of both required wards and also of step up enchants, the sympatico is now a minute-stake game where some squeeze 2-10k from any item over the course of a week or so.
BUT
It's had a noticeable impact on how players perceive the market and has led to this thread.
They seem to have increased in price outside of the normal distribution of market items, a form of inflation (false-demand / speculation) and it's feeling unhealthy (to the consumer).
I bought one Coal at 260k to show market stability but there is no way new players should avoid a leg up just trying to do it themselves "self-made".
50k is just way too cheap. It still needs to hold up some value. Atm 10 pre wards are 44k ad so it'd be way more efficient than them. You'd be able to make perfect enchants for so little. I'd rather see them capped at around 200k personally although I guess that still wouldn't be thaaaat friendly for newbies.
I disagree. Why does it have to hold up value?
Why won't you make this same argument for dragon eggs?
A minor point also: Unlike dragon eggs, coal wards are more susceptible to praybots. Why would we want to reward them? Again, this is a small point but it is a point regardless
Why won't you make this same argument for dragon eggs?
A minor point also: Unlike dragon eggs, coal wards are more susceptible to praybots. Why would we want to reward them? Again, this is a small point but it is a point regardless
Because people should still have to work towards perfect enchantments and not have it handed to them on a silver platter. As for dragon eggs, I think they cost waaaaay too cheap. They come from boosters and asset packs worth 300 zen and you make a huge loss of getting an epic quality prize. By comparison the coal ward is over 3 times that from the zen store, which although massively overpriced you're asking them to cost about the same price as an item worth 3 times less in zen and has a lot higher demand (which is causing prices to go up). It was 1 event that reduced its price by so much. Coal wards are currently bop from the weekly coffers so praybotters are not rewarded.
Because people should still have to work towards perfect enchantments and not have it handed to them on a silver platter. As for dragon eggs, I think they cost waaaaay too cheap. They come from boosters and asset packs worth 300 zen and you make a huge loss of getting an epic quality prize. By comparison the coal ward is over 3 times that from the zen store, which although massively overpriced you're asking them to cost about the same price as an item worth 3 times less in zen and has a lot higher demand (which is causing prices to go up). It was 1 event that reduced its price by so much.
People can still work for them in dungeons. I didn't say give everyone 100 coal wards. Make a tier 2.5 dungeons that have a small chance of dropping them.
Like I said in my previous post, are you really going to put that 1000zen pricetag to heart? Then nerf the drop rates of coal wards even more then. Justify that 1000zen pricetag.
People can still work for them in dungeons. I didn't say give everyone 100 coal wards. Make a tier 2.5 dungeons that have a small chance of dropping them.
Like I said in my previous post, are you really going to put that 1000zen pricetag to heart? Then nerf the drop rates of coal wards even more then. Justify that 1000zen pricetag.
Enchantments are not BOP. You could easily make a perfect enchantment by letting a praybot borrow an enchantment and fuse it.
Too easy of a workaround
Well if they really were 50k like you wanted, I could make a perfect every week if I farmed a decent amount although nowhere near the amount I used to, or anyone can get a lesser in 2 days with little effort. They still need to be long term goals, just they shouldn't reach the 300-400k point.
As for praybots making perfect enchantments, they'd probably be more likely to make lessers if anything. Perfects need rp, marks and multiple wards (which is a lot of mailing around considering the low drop rate).
Comments
Thank you.
The total cost for making perfect enchantments is 4M less than it was before. If the drop rates were not reduced coal wards would be worthless.
The conspiracy theories are so outlandish it isn't funny. Regardless of the increase in individual coal ward prices the prices to refine high end enchantments is far lower than it was before. There's no form of reality where lowering the cost of something translates to Cryptic trying to get players to pay money to advance.
Please, please, please stop looking at the economy with a microscope and look at the big picture. The costs were cut in half even though individual prices went up.
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
The thing is when we joined, the entry market to get lesser enchants was fairly reasonable and it was relatively easy to get free wards every now and then. 100k and you get your lesser. We then get a new refinement system that benefits the ones that already have lessers-greaters and it really shines at reducing the cost of perfects. The higher and harder coal wards are to get, the more of the lower (and more popular I assume) end will get pushed out. Especially if they can't farm as much as we used to. At that price it really would be a worse system though as it only benefits perfect enchantments, and doesn't really help rank 10s so much or anything less than perfect but adds a lot of effort into refining the items, some of which is less infuriating because bots sell whole stacks of refining items. The newbies have a different outlook, we gradually managed to get better enchants, while they have a massive roadblock for them to even get their first one.
I can see those players having a harder time as time goes by and I don't envy them unless things change in some way (decreased farming rates becoming the norm and coal ward keeping their 1k zen price with next to impossible drop rates). I think we got time till it reaches that high though if it ever does. It took longer than I though for it to go from 100 to 200.
I stand corrected.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Also pointing out how beneficial the new system is vs. the old system is weaksauce, stop it already. The old system was a complete joke in terms of how long it took to get your Perfect Enchantment for everybody but the power players. I can't recall all the math, but I believe smart folks were talking years. So it had to be done something to widen the availability. It was mandatory, not a gracious gift.
Of course it depends on who you think should be able to get a Perfect Enchantment in what time and that's a discussion beyond this thread. I think most people lunge at the rising Coal price because it's the one item they can't farm in a reasonable period and have to buy. Shards, no problem. Refining gems, check. Potencys as well. But you only get one CWard per 20 weeks of praying on average so here is your bottleneck.
So it shouldn't come as a surprise that the older, established players are defending the new system.
I have seen plenty of people nowadays, newer players, who have decent gear but no enchants. Because they can't get a Coal Ward.
It really is an ingenious system. Cryptic figured out that they likely aren't going to get much more real cash from the established players, since there isn't much more they are willing to spend real money on, so they have to squeeze newer players for money. Hence, devise a system that benefits older players (so they will stick around) but costs newer players (so they will spend cash).
And I would not mind SO much, if it didn't require a coal ward to even get 1 armor/weapon enchant. Perhaps if the success rate for the Lesser enchant was only, say, 10% instead of 1%, so a player could realistically use Preservation Wards instead in order to get just the lesser version (and then everything else is 1% chance).
First of all, I in no way support this specific conspiracy.
Now then, I agree with him though regarding the current pricing of coal wards. I do not think that coal wards would be worthless. Are dragon eggs worthless? (They did the same thing to dragon eggs 7 months ago.) The answer to both is no. I believe the price will drop and stabilize at around 50k if that were the case which seems fair. More people could actually use them as intended. Right now, coal wards are being used to manipulate the market and for underground trading. None of which cryptic, nor the majority of the players, are benefitting from. In fact, it hurts them.
The only logical counter to my argument is that Cryptic is hell-bent on upholding that 1000zen price tag at the zen store. In that case, I would like to say I hope they change their minds regarding that.
Whether they land in your lap without a direct cost or not they still have a value because the fact is if you acquire an item you are no longer in demand of that item.
The very fact the items exist effects the market value. If you no longer need them you won't even be tempted to buy them. This means the price goes down. And this can easily cause a downward spiral in prices.
And sort of like getting a hair cut you can always add more but you can never take out. Just a small amount more can easily upset the balance and send the value to nothing...
And it is important to remember enchantments don't bind. As more and more enchantments are made the demand for new ones goes down further and further.
Correct but we already have precedence for this. Dragon Eggs!
Theoretically, each character needs 2-4 dragon eggs (1 shirt and 1 pants + accounting for 60% chance failure) while they would need around 30 coal wards (if my math is correct) to get their weapon and armor enchants. This is a generalization but you get the picture: people needs a heck more of coal wards than dragon eggs. A LOT MORE.
Did dragon eggs become worthless? Nope. They are going strong at 40k. How many events happened to greatly infuse thousands of dragon eggs into the community? 3 of them. How many tymora boxes were in the circulation/AH due to ahem people farming using shady methods? Tens of thousands if not hundreds. Go back 1 month, how many 999x tymora boxes were on the auction house? Don't forget we've had 4x cycles of lockboxes that drop profession packs which have dragon eggs in it.
With all that being said, did dragon eggs prices spiral down? Nope. Did alchemy assets? Yup.
You know the difference? One of them is useful the other is trash.
So long as coal wards are useful, Cryptic will be able to cautiously sprinkle in events here and there to have them drop so that more players will use them up more for what is intended: fusing enchantments
This is quite untrue. Technically, I need neither C. Wards or Dragon Eggs to get Weapon/Armor Enchantments and shirt/pants. I can simply buy them off the AH.
"But that costs a lot of AD! It's not fair! I have rights!" I know, it's so hard playing a game that's almost 100% F2P with no way to make AD.
In fact, in many cases it's better to buy the premade item instead of making it yourself. Take, for instance, that P. Vorpals are selling for 6kk AD on the AH. If I wanted to make my own from two Greater Vorpals, it would cost me 2.9kk (x2) + a C. Ward + Marks of Potency + refinement items.
I'd rather buy the P. Vorpal outright and save all the time, trouble and AD.
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That's how the game looks from the top, completely different story for lower tier players.
Lobo, do you know that I am 100% F2P? Do you know that I started, like everyone else, with two character slots and a rental horse? I remember how momentous it was when I got my Rank 7s! And then later getting a Greater Vorpal! I was elated!
You can either invest time or money (or both) into this game. I've chosen to invest time. Please check out my guide if you want further ideas on how to make AD outside of DD farming. C. Ward prices are nominal in the grand scheme of the NW economy.
Know what else? I've seen people come and go who've dropped hundreds and (get this) thousands of dollars into this game! The wanted the best and they wanted it now. Honestly, I don't believe any of them are still around. I value my account highly because I've worked my cyber-butt off to get it where it is.
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I didn't question that. But back then, for us, it felt easier to obtain our first enchant because we didn't have a single paywall. I get why players complain today. I wouldn't want to start fresh these days.
In the grand scheme the pricing might be right, but for lowbies 130k to 260k (soon to be 400k) is massive. That's why people come to the forum and open threads. They don't get Wards from Coffers with that 5% drop rate, look up the AH, see the price and sigh.
It really isn't that hard to get the initial bits if you put the time into it. While I can't say I am 100% free to play I can say that I have never and likely will never buy Zen to buy AD.
The truth is feeling like you have to buy AD with Zen is impatience.
Incorrect.
The point I was trying to make was that an event dropping coal wards wouldn't completely destroy its value. It would devalue it to a certain point just as the dragon egg was devalued to a certain point.
I honestly don't care about not being able to afford it. I have more AD than most people here on the forums through various AH manipulation methods not listed in that link. (although you do need a large large large amount of capital I'll say that hence probably why it wasn't a listed method)
edit: PS, buying a perfect vorpal does not save you diamonds, you actually pay more. That's how some people make their AD. They buy the mats in bulk, they craft, and they sell in the auction house at a profit. Right now is not the best time to do so since a lot of factors (such as upcoming lockbox) have temporarily skewed the prices accordingly. But on any other week, that is the case.
Also on another note, it costs you 2.9mil + all those materials just to make a greater vorpal?
last i checked, lesser weapon/armor enchants r being sold for more than coal wards. i even waited on buying a lesser bile for prices to drop, but they kept going up to account for the ever increasing prices on wards i guess.
i actually calced it to be cheaper to buy the shards + ward and just make it like that. i even looked further down the line and many higher ranked weapon/armor enchants r being sold for more than it costs to make it (i don't count refining since that's cheap).
Well like I said above, that wasn't my point. My point was, coal wards have degraded into being used to manipulate the market and to do underground trading (not gonna expand on this due to forum TOS). These two activities do not profit cryptic or majority of the players whatsoever. In fact, it hurts them.
Let's make coal wards more available to more players just as they made dragon eggs (ie gemmed shirts/pants).
I'm not saying increase the invocation drop rate because we don't want/need praybots benefitting the most.
I say either make a new Tymoraesque event that has a small chance of dropping coal wards OR future top end dungeons/skirmishes having a small chance of dropping these wards.
I am ballparking a price of 50k for coal wards in the future would be the sweet spot.
Which is 156-250 days to get a perfect (if you're going by refining limit). You'll want 2 of those which gives 1.5 years on the latter to get them just for the coal wards. Kind of a long time...
How many days is 4M AD? That's the amount of days this new system is saving in terms of perfect enchantment.
Yes lessers are more expensive now but 10-15 days for a lesser is not something to complain about IMO and there is absolutely no justification for complaining about the price of greaters and perfects since the prices are drastically cheaper than they were before.
Yeah I just realised that was a pretty silly argument since the point was that it was still easier to get perfects which is exactly what that last point I made was >.>. However practically everything else is worse off though, us older players like it for the perfect weapon/armour enchants, newer players probably hate it. Since the old system meant that coal wards were 100k each so thats 8.5m on wards (I think you needed 85, 1>5>21>85) compared to 3.75m now (at 250k) or 6m at 400k if it ever gets to that point. So it's 400% more expensive to get your first lesser which you could've previously get for free, and only 30% cheaper for a perfect (which was sorely needed) if coal wards do reach the 400k which it very well may eventually since the supply is much lower than the need for them. Of course that's excluding the extra reagents needed nowadays and the extra time it takes.
Now the new system:
1) Costs more for an entry point
2) Allows you not to get free wards unless you're very lucky
3) Is a pain to refine especially for enchants where the shards are not cost effective
4) Gives practically no existing benefit to craft enchants all of the way to rank 10 but a lot more work
5) Is a little less painful when using rp from stacked items that bots farm. (So promotes botting)
6) Requires a lot more bag/bank space if you plan to keep the refinement items
Lets also not forget that it wasn't for the backlash they would kept the ad cost to upgrade too. What makes the new system shine is being able to remove enchants without paying AD. Apart from that it's practically worse in every single way apart from making perfect enchants. The ones that want perfects now are benefiting from it, the ones that aren't near that point have to put up with a worse system for their level. They could've got a lesser in 4 days or for free after 1-5 weeks instead of the 10 it does now and 15 it may go up to.
For me I don't have a problem with it, I made my perfect vorpal with the new system and it was much more accessible and friendly to me because it happened at around the right time while I also managed to farm a decent amount. For newer players it's a big turn off. They have to put up with reduced farming rates which appears to be where the game is headed towards and an increased inflation for entry level. They do however get a cheap way to get rank 7s, but thats due to lockboxes and not the new refinement system. For me, I don't mind, I'm sorted for AD hopefully. That entry cost doesn't affect me. It's not me I'm most concerned about though. I'm concerned there's little cap to how much coal wards will rise apart from the completely ridiculous 1000 zen price. Even if they permanently reduced those I may be happy since they'll be a better limit to how high they'll go. Plus if they did keep rising people might actually be more tempted to buy the **** things. Especially if it reaches the point where the ah is the inefficient place to buy things like other items that players that take advantage of those that don't know about the exchange.
That's what I mean about those Perfect Vorpals. Many players will actually take a loss on some of the higher end enchantments to get a pool of AD back.
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Genius.
Why should they do otherwise? The primary goal of any company is to make money.
Now, is this game not playable without AD? Are armour enchant, weapon enchant so necessary? Rank 4 enchants in your slots, five white companions. You'll certainly be able to reach lvl 60. The 9200 GS required for T2 dungeons will be a problem though, you may have to choose GF as a class, their gear has better GS. You will never see mod3 bacause of the required 10200 GS, but why bother, just getting the Sharandar and Dread ring boons will keep you busy for quite a while.
That may be but the chance to refine a Perfect V. for free was higher, since Coal wards had a much higher chance to drop from celestial coins invoking chest so Making 2 Perfect Vorpal if you farmed the shards could be made for free in 2 or 3 months paying for itself. Now you get a Coal ward for free every 4, 5 months.
This game is pretty enjoyable with very few ADs (let's say just invoking 3x a day for 2k AD, that's certainly not active farming since all it takes is a quick 30 seconds login). R6 enchantments are usually cheap (in the 4-6k range), you have a slight chance to a free coal ward each week, you get green companions (even account-wide) for free with various events or promotions, you don't really need ADs for 95% of the game.
There are very few exceptions where extra DPS you get from highest level enchantments, and armor/weapon enchantments, make a real difference between victory or defeat (ToS and Mad Dragon comes to my mind), in all other cases it means you are just slowed down a bit and you need to pound the boss/adds for a few more minutes.
by litigious--| types
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adjective
tending or too ready to take legal action to settle disputes.
"our increasingly litigious society"
concerned with lawsuits or litigation.
suitable to become the subject of a lawsuit.
because it's condescending--|
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adjective
having or showing an attitude of patronizing superiority.
However, I'm pretty much the same.
This thread pretty much points to one thing:
Despite the gradual build up in Coal Ward Prices and the seemingly lower supply of both required wards and also of step up enchants, the sympatico is now a minute-stake game where some squeeze 2-10k from any item over the course of a week or so.
BUT
It's had a noticeable impact on how players perceive the market and has led to this thread.
They seem to have increased in price outside of the normal distribution of market items, a form of inflation (false-demand / speculation) and it's feeling unhealthy (to the consumer).
I bought one Coal at 260k to show market stability but there is no way new players should avoid a leg up just trying to do it themselves "self-made".
I disagree. Why does it have to hold up value?
Why won't you make this same argument for dragon eggs?
A minor point also: Unlike dragon eggs, coal wards are more susceptible to praybots. Why would we want to reward them? Again, this is a small point but it is a point regardless
Because people should still have to work towards perfect enchantments and not have it handed to them on a silver platter. As for dragon eggs, I think they cost waaaaay too cheap. They come from boosters and asset packs worth 300 zen and you make a huge loss of getting an epic quality prize. By comparison the coal ward is over 3 times that from the zen store, which although massively overpriced you're asking them to cost about the same price as an item worth 3 times less in zen and has a lot higher demand (which is causing prices to go up). It was 1 event that reduced its price by so much. Coal wards are currently bop from the weekly coffers so praybotters are not rewarded.
People can still work for them in dungeons. I didn't say give everyone 100 coal wards. Make a tier 2.5 dungeons that have a small chance of dropping them.
Like I said in my previous post, are you really going to put that 1000zen pricetag to heart? Then nerf the drop rates of coal wards even more then. Justify that 1000zen pricetag.
Enchantments are not BOP. You could easily make a perfect enchantment by letting a praybot borrow an enchantment and fuse it.
Too easy of a workaround
Well if they really were 50k like you wanted, I could make a perfect every week if I farmed a decent amount although nowhere near the amount I used to, or anyone can get a lesser in 2 days with little effort. They still need to be long term goals, just they shouldn't reach the 300-400k point.
As for praybots making perfect enchantments, they'd probably be more likely to make lessers if anything. Perfects need rp, marks and multiple wards (which is a lot of mailing around considering the low drop rate).