imo the pvp game right now, is nearly balanced. only GWF is over the top, but instead of nerfing him, they invent several new stuff, which will leads to new imbalanced situations.
Well technically it is only really Sentinel GWFs. Also perma-stealth TRs say hi.......
It amuses me, how you don't understand such simple concept: there should NOT be such a thing as "excel" in terms of MMORPG.
If you prefer an allegory: if your opponent has a knife, you supposed to have a pepper mace. Or at least a chain mail. When us, players, notice some class appears to have a shotgun instead, we should ask devs to fix that - give us shotguns too, or take it away from that class and give him a knife
EDIT
Now PvP balance just looks something like this:
Lol @ image
No I understand your point perfectly well though. However, you are talking about a perfect world, with a perfectly balanced game, with perfectly balanced skills + items for each class, ect., to the point where classes do not "excel", but are all perfectly balanced. (Then again, its made by perfectworld so idk... maybe there is a chance with this one.) This just cannot happen. I also understand that its reasonable to ask for buffs when a class isn't balanced. (I did mention in my previous post that I am not saying CW shouldn't be buffed. I do believe it needs some kind of small buff for PvP. However, it has to be in line with the other aspects of CW and its actual function in group PvP.) Either way, the point is you are never going to have balanced PvP unless you are playing a game where every class is exactly the same with exactly the same capabilities and skills, exactly the same gear, exactly the same controls, ect. It is not possible to come up with a perfectly balanced system, and even in the most popular PvP games there are still classes or characters, ect. that are stronger than the others. Especially in a game like this one where the PvP is less skill dependent, you are going to see imbalances having a larger effect on the outcomes of matches because players can't compensate for it as much by playing with more skill. This game is very limited in its "skill" factor of PvP compared to other games that I currently play.
Another thing to note is that especially in an MMORPG there is even more reason to expect classes or characters to "excel" in areas. Classes are designed with a function. Some are dps, some are control, some are tanks, ect. This is what makes PvP and gameplay dynamic rather than the scenario mentioned above where everyone is exactly the same to make everything balanced. This is why CW should "excel" in control, but should not "excel" in dps or 1v1 capability when compared to the other classes. Most games do this with a "combat triangle" where certain classes are specifically designed to beat other classes.
Ultimately the point I was trying to suggest is that if losing is so frustrating because you are playing a weak class for one specific aspect of the game (PvP), then play a strong class. The reason it is "weak" is because it is a support class. Then again, you get back into the argument of what is strength in PvP. Being able to stun or debuff someone from out of range while your teammate kills them is pretty powerful, despite the fact that it may not be able to do a ton of damage ("weak"). The game is about having fun, and if you aren't having fun playing a class that is going to get sowreck3d easily, why would you continue to try to force it to work?
Maybe there is a misunderstanding when I say "force it to work". By this, I simply mean constantly trying to make it work in game when clearly the disadvantage is too much for it to be viable as one of the better PvP classes. When I say this I do not mean it is wrong to go on the forums and let people know that the class needs buffed. That is obviously what should be done.
The bigger point I was trying to make is that one shouldn't say not to go through with a large balance update just because it does not affect the fact that one class was not desirable in pvp and still isn't desirable. The changes have so much more to offer for what they do rather than what they don't, and they we shouldn't hold up the show because not everything we wanted was included.
Either way I think I'm getting into the point where I am repeating myself too much, so I am going to try to limit responses from now on.
Also, the lines below - EXTREMELY important. Extremely.
- I never asked for CW to be No1 class in PvP
- I never asked for CW to own 1vs1 all other classes
- I never asked for CW's support role to be changed to point holder, tank or whatever, I like support
Now let's see what I actually asked:
- CW should have a 50% (FIFTY) chance to kill any other class in PvP, same gear, same skill, same experience
- CW should be just as desirable as a GWF or TR in PvP; people should not leave their class to roll another, because it is weak
And that's about it.
Click on your name, then click on "show post history", read what you ask(ed) for. It is exactly what you just said you aren't asking for. And nobody is attacking you, actually i just think people read plenty of your former posts and have built their opinion already resulting in your point of view being ridiculed/ questioned.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
No I understand your point perfectly well though. However, you are talking about a perfect world, with a perfectly balanced game, with perfectly balanced skills + items for each class, ect., to the point where classes do not "excel", but are all perfectly balanced.
Both me and astronax/tiah come from another game where a HUGE amount of work was put into balancing classes, and it still is, after 10 years of ongoing PvP in that game.
Were classes perfectly balanced? No.
But I never had any reason to complain about my Frost Mage - from Vanilla WoW, to Burning Crusade, to Cataclysm. I have a grand total amount of 0 (zero) posts in Blizz forums, just because I was mostly pleased of how stuff went.
Yet my mage was never OP - it was just balanced.
So it is totally possible. Please understand that.
Click on your name, then click on "show post history", read what you ask(ed) for. It is exactly what you just said you aren't asking for. And nobody is attacking you, actually i just think people read plenty of your former posts and have built their opinion already resulting in your point of view being ridiculed.
Please quote where I say that:
- CW should own 1vs1 in PvP
- CW should be best PvP class
Are you ready to dominate? Our PvP updates are coming this Thursday, 3/6, with new gear, a new Tenacity stat, matchmaking, and penalties for early leavers! #Neverwinter
- Straight off the Neverwinter Facebook page.
Note 1) CWs will HOPEFULLY be viable with control ignoring 66% of tenacity for duration effects ONLY and also NOT having deflect ruin the duration of CC effects.
Note 2) I do have to admit DCs feel lack luster in PVP atm, and essentially this PVP patch may ruin pvp for DCs - well see.
Overall: I thing the game will be MORE balanced than on live as a whole, with minor imbalances with classes like DC/CW potentially. I have done alot of testing on the PTR and will wait till it all roles live before making final judgements.
My BIGGEST concern is the leaver penalty however... Now how will PMs que?
UPDATE:Are you ready to dominate? Our PvP updates are coming this Thursday, 3/6, with new gear, a new Tenacity stat, matchmaking, and penalties for early leavers! #Neverwinter
- Straight off the Neverwinter Facebook page.
Note 1) CWs will HOPEFULLY be viable with control ignoring 66% of tenacity for duration effects ONLY and also NOT having deflect ruin the duration of CC effects.
Note 2) I do have to admit DCs feel lack luster in PVP atm, and essentially this PVP patch may ruin pvp for DCs - well see.
Overall: I thing the game will be MORE balanced than on live as a whole, with minor imbalances with classes like DC/CW potentially. I have done alot of testing on the PTR and will wait till it all roles live before making final judgements.
My BIGGEST concern is the leaver penalty however... Now how will PMs que?
They did note that they are aware of this and have something in the future that will hopefully satisfy the PM vs PM desire. For now though with a matchmaking system at least there wont be a need to rely on premades vs premades to find good, high level, balanced fights.
and also NOT having deflect ruin the duration of CC effects.
so far the devs have only acknowledged this is a bug, they didnt say they have any fix in sight for it... or did i miss that? im currently expecting that bug to make it to live on thursday and still be around awhile after that
Please take the PvE out of this. I will admit from the start CW is most desirable class for PvE. It has NOTHING to do with the PURE PvP discussion here. While I do (some) PvE, many other PvP CWs never ever touch it.
Again.
PvE has NO PLACE in a pure PvP discussion
Again.
NOBODY.
NOBODY.
Ever asked to make CW best in ANYTHING.
Just equally viable.
persephone, as it is I agree with along the lines with pando in that it now needs a larger-scale combat testing to see how it works out. There's going to be a long painful period to some classes which did not benefit as much from other classes, but under these circumstances the developers need to see how things will initially shift around, and then simmer down to a "new meta". From that point, they can start tweaking stuff and re-iterate how the new order of things can really settle down.
... I'm hardly knowledgeable about CWs so I don't really know what to say to calm you down.
Just remember, PvPers simply adapt. Maybe there are a few things you've not tested out. Other unorthodox methods, maybe new ideas. I've thoroughly enjoyed the experience with Plaguefire in PvP by building a defense debuff TR -- it's unorthodox, but its unique and satisfying. Recently I am using Bronzewood and I'm immensely enjoying its effects as well. Maybe the CW can be built in a different method. Maybe there are few obscure details or traits or functions with the CW which nobody really thought was important and simply overlooked, that might turn out to be a jewel. There's got to be something else. Maybe in compensation the developers could slightly raise the magnitude of control WIS effects on CWs.
Just don't get too discouraged.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
You go in with friends or guild. Testing takes time yes. Better wait than have this on Live.
How hard can it be to understand it's toxic content?
You go with friends and guilds is exactly what i said before: 0,5% of the player base going there to test stuff.
First of all, it's not enough to create a "ranking" or test a matchmaking. Seriously. What numbers do you think the system would use? You will gain ZERO useful info about how matchmaking works. On live, even after 1 year of testing by 0,5% of the player base, it could work in a completely different way.
Last: you either value yourself and the few Others who could test tenacity, as a dream team of experienced beta testers, whose feedback alone is enough for a dev to have a clear picture of what works and what not, or you really think that feedback from a small % of players is enough.
Considering that inside this small %, there are guys wo like tenacity, guys who think it could be better, and guys who don't like it at all. Which ones would you consider "real feedback"? A small part inside this small Group of people who could test it?
It's not about time. It's about how many people test it. You seem to think that if you could test it alone for 10 years, your feedback would be as valuable as a test ran on 400.000 players. It's not how things work when you test stuff. Not just in games. In anything. You need a big enough number of subjects to have good data. Not a small number for more time.
It's toxic content? As i said, if people understands that it is not final content but a test, what is the problem? You give feedback and wait for it to get fixed. For example: it goes live. You say your CW will suck more. Ok. Then you come here and give feedback. Then thousands of other CWs give feedback. And, as we already saw with the cc buff on CWs, the devs will make changes to balance things.
From what you say, it seems like if they release these changes earlier, neverwinter will blow up and the game will die. It's not final content, it's subject to changes. I would say, weekly. Just relax and test stuff, and give feedback.
idk what u complain cw is more then fine in pvp atm im for one happy they did not make wizards broken op like in other games where ice wizards cc lock whole teams u guys can use your daily skills every 20-30 sec no other class can to this also u have better dps then tr what do u want more?
if is cw so underpowerd why then in top 10 places in gg pvp are mostly cw? why in domination cw are aslo good scored?
idk what u complain cw is more then fine in pvp atm im for one happy they did not make wizards broken op like in other games where ice wizards cc lock whole teams u guys can use your daily skills every 20-30 sec no other class can to this also u have better dps then tr what do u want more?
if is cw so underpowerd why then in top 10 places in gg pvp are mostly cw? why in domination cw are aslo good scored?
Could you upload a few screenshots?
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
persephone, as it is I agree with along the lines with pando in that it now needs a larger-scale combat testing to see how it works out. There's going to be a long painful period to some classes which did not benefit as much from other classes, but under these circumstances the developers need to see how things will initially shift around, and then simmer down to a "new meta". From that point, they can start tweaking stuff and re-iterate how the new order of things can really settle down.
... I'm hardly knowledgeable about CWs so I don't really know what to say to calm you down.
Just remember, PvPers simply adapt. Maybe there are a few things you've not tested out. Other unorthodox methods, maybe new ideas. I've thoroughly enjoyed the experience with Plaguefire in PvP by building a defense debuff TR -- it's unorthodox, but its unique and satisfying. Recently I am using Bronzewood and I'm immensely enjoying its effects as well. Maybe the CW can be built in a different method. Maybe there are few obscure details or traits or functions with the CW which nobody really thought was important and simply overlooked, that might turn out to be a jewel. There's got to be something else. Maybe in compensation the developers could slightly raise the magnitude of control WIS effects on CWs.
Just don't get too discouraged.
Look.
There are playstyles and playstyles.
For example, I chose this type of char EXPRESSLY because:
Basically, it's playing as close to a frost mage in WoW. And it worked satisfyingly for now.
I don't want to "adapt" and play as another thing I heavily dislike. My CC and spike damage are gone. Basically this stuff is what makes the game enjoyable from me.
Also you cannot really roll Wis CW, you need Int/Con, or you deal lame damage/die even faster than normal.
idk what u complain cw is more then fine in pvp atm im for one happy they did not make wizards broken op like in other games where ice wizards cc lock whole teams u guys can use your daily skills every 20-30 sec no other class can to this also u have better dps then tr what do u want more?
if is cw so underpowerd why then in top 10 places in gg pvp are mostly cw? why in domination cw are aslo good scored?
First, this subforum is the Preview one. Has NOTHING to do with Live - for now.
I also said quite a few times - I will be very pleased for my CW to remain as it is now on Live without Tenacity.
Just don't force this upon our throats. Of course some don't care, cause they can still do their combos, and nothing changed - such as GWF, who are JUST as OP as on Live, with the mention that while on Live, with some luck, I can proc SF or might even kill good GWF, in Preview... I cannot do anything. Cool, huh?
As for GG, you serious? LOL. Against Luskan 20K HP newbies? I once had 40-0 KD, and I played like in PvE, with AoE skills for the lulz. Any CW can do great hidden behind some nasty GWFs and throwing bombs at the poor opponents. Put the CW in an even situation and things change.
So it's hard to understand? Why this update is dumb?
Not even the developers in full r10 and greatest gear and legendary artifacts couldn't play CW in PvP - they didn't score A SINGLE KILL.
Always easy to be calm and collected about stuff that doesn't break your char. Nothing more to say about this.
My GWF uses T1 PvP gear cause of the bonus HEALING during unstoppable, which i needed since my GWF is not a regeneration tank with monster HP, and the healing was very important. It gets a brute 50% nerf with healing depression.
My GWF damage relies on criticals and spike damage. Guess what, you're not the only one who went for a critical build for spike damage. 90% of players do that.
I used to use restoring strike cause i liked the power. Wait, it gets a nerf too with healing depression.
I use vorpal which will get a huge nerf, and right now it wil ltake a huge toll on me to build a terror enchant since the way i play (alone, no clan, not much time to play, money spent only for aestethics or respec, no credit card warrior) doesn't make me a AD billionaire and coal wards are at 200k AD now.
And again, i'm not a tank build. I'm not OP, i'm not immortal, i'm not a god in PvP, CWs can take me down if i make mistakes or if they are better than me. I'm a DPS build focused on high spike damage while trying to be more resilient than a Destroyer. Which means, with spike damage nerfed, i'm in the same boat as you, persephone.
I love how people make assumptions about me, that are wrong 99% of the time.
To you too: if you know nothing about someone, and about the build he uses, do not make assumptions.
I will have to heavily change my gear, my focus and the way i play. But i take it as a challenge and as an opportunity to try new stuff.
It's Always funny how this community behave.
They see you in PvP, they assume that since you are a GWF you are a sentinel IV tank. Which means, you've to tank 4-5 enemies or you're weak. But if you take them down, you're just another OP GWF. No matter if your build is not OP at all.
They see you on forums, and if you're a GWF you're for sure just a player who likes to play OP builds and everything you say is seen as an attempt to keep your class OP/ deceive people/ ignore problems.
I really wish people would actually stop making assumptions.
But it's the internetz, so i shouldn't be surprised.
The faster it comes out live the faster they will get feedback to fix/tweek stuff and balance things.
It will be kinda messy at first but I think in the end its the fastest way to actually work out all the bugs.
I really dont think they can get it dialed in on the test server anyways so going live will be the best most direct route for feed back and testing.
Im gonna try to have fun with it.
Im guessing by the time mod 3 comes out it should be dialed in to were most of us will be happy.
It's delightful that they have a preview server. I don't think many people know about it though, and the process of getting onto it should be a bit more well-publicized. Perhaps if more people knew about it/how to get onto it, there'd be more testers and enough feedback for Cryptic to make use of it.
Please be honest, did you play a CW on Preview?
The class is heavily affected by the changes and out most important combo is no longer possible.
You think CW is fragile in Live? Might need a buff?
Please let me keep my Live CW then! Because the ones I tested on Preview are 100% worse.
Also your assumptions about how CWs function in Preview are all wrong, so yeah, I'm 100% you never played one.
The only thing I know is that when I come up against a CW in PvP on Live, all the CW has to do to guarantee a win against me is get his CC off before I do. After that, I'm perma-controlled while he solo-DPSes me to death in very short order. If I get my CC off first, it had better be Constricting or else he's going to cast and then it's over anyway.
+1 for CWs being brought back down to the Prime Material Plane. I hope the same happens to GWFs.
"I don't have a perfect vorpal and I'm jealous of all that do. Please nerf them so I can be happy, I don't want to buy/work for a vorpal myself."
When Vorpal/Soulforged are the only "correct" choice for both PvP and PvE, then yes they definitely need a nerf - or something to indirectly nerf them and make other choices viable too. Before you say "you're just jealous because you don't want to get get your own," I could easily sell Zen and have PVorpal and PSoulforged if I wished, but you're correct - I simply don't want to. I'm not jealous though, just disgusted. Virtually everyone else I see is running with some manner of Vorpal and Soulforged. If it's not those two, it's Plaguefire and Negation. Other enchants are virtually unused in Neverwinter by comparison. Why do I want to join that crowd? I'll use the enchants I want to and everyone else can just deal with it. Other enchants should be viable too instead of just Vorpal and Soulforged, and I'm unhappy that this is not the case. So yes, please nerf Vorpal so that I can be happy.
Honestly. This is Neverwinter Online, not Perfect Vorpal Online.
Honestly. This is Neverwinter Online, not Perfect Vorpal Online.
I can't really say that absolutely everyone runs vorpal, but I'm sure this is 99% Lesser Soulforged Online.
On topic. The time I chose DC as a new toon they have rolled out Healing Depression. I'm not playing much, I don't farm CN and I play with a couple of friends so my AD income is very little. I'm using the same healing build for PVP and PVE with only swapping jewelry. After the update I'm forced to respec completely, completely change my gear and enchants to be viable in PVP. But I will no longer be viable in PVE as a pure PVP oriented tank cleric and I will no longer be viable in PVP as a PVE oriented healer cleric.
I hate HD. I hate that this affects healing spells. HP/regen combo - this is what overpowered, not DC's healing. DC have always been a punching dummy in PVP, and only after this tank DC META came out they have started to at least survive in PVP.
Devs considered DCs to be OP? OK, it's time to return to play my 17k IV Sentinel HP/Regen GWF that can 1vs3 almost anyone. Have fun.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
Coming out with the new pvp system is great and all but
One things that worries me is not having 2 separate queues.
they may be able to eventually balance classes somewhat and have elo matchmaking system but without a pug queue and a premade queue the games will remain unbalanced no matter what they do.
Every new pvper is usually a pugger when they first queue for domination.
by not putting in seprarate queues your telling all the players to form a premade or get wiped.
which pretty much removes any casual player from pvp domination.
Instead of having a gradual learning curve were you will eventually be in a premade with high end gear.
the unspoken truth will be farm gear for months or buy it then join a premade in order to compete in domination or get wiped.
kinda how it is now.
It seems to be just a bunch of premades farming pugs for glory.
so again how will a elo matchmaking system balance a premade on voice chat with a well organized hand picked group VS a equally balanced(gear/skill)group NOT on voice chat,NOT Organized,NOT hand picked???
Or is that the plan ONLY premade vs premade or get wiped.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Devs considered DCs to be OP? OK, it's time to return to play my 17k IV Sentinel HP/Regen GWF that can 1vs3 almost anyone. Have fun.
It's quite possible I will roll a GWF or quit. You'd be surprised how many people I know are already quitting their CWs and leveling permas or IV sents.
As somebody put it in the PMvsPM channel:
Get used to 5 GWF parties, gonna be the norm, especially as you CANNOT arrange matches any longer, and CANNOT know the enemy team comp.
GG.
This discussion is over from my point of view, since there is no official response and they will push it whatever the feedback, just because
I have no reasons to play a game when it stops being fun, and I have no reasons to be a testing dummy for the devs, WITHOUT my approval (as in I voluntarily log on Preview to help with feedback).
That's about it from me, great job at destroying entire classes for PvP, and also destroying stuff that people like me spent countless hours working for, such as Perfect Vorpals/SF.
I would really like to see CWs ignore not only tenacity duration effects but tenacity resist effects as well...
Control Wizards should have powerful control abilities.
I would also like to have confirmation about the deflect control issue and how that also severely hurts CWs control ability.
I have heard many people say these changes are killing the CW/DC classes. While I am holding out to make my FINAL assesment, I tend to agree that these changes really hurt CW alot more than others.
BTW, no GWF will be 3v1ing anybody anymore, people that say that are pretty ignorant of these changes. With Temp HP and regen nerfed hard. and matchmaking ensuring youll atleast be with other relatively decent players, GL even in a 2v1 scenario. It just wont happen.
Ultimately enough people like it or the developers feel it is necessary enough (in addition to those people who do like it) to implement it. There have been cases in the past where opposition to new ideas was able to prevent them from happening. (At-wills draining stealth for rogues). There have also been cases where people argued strongly against something and it still did happen for greater cause (Ex: deflect nerfing to GWF a long time ago when deflect tank builds were the norm.)
Also, the fact that they tested and got so much feedback shows that they are not "forcing et down our throats" as well. They may be forcing it down your throat, but definitely not mine.
Everyone knows, that WoW frost mages are Overpowered. This isn't WoW, though and luckily it will never be. CW's should undergo the same penalties as every other class does. Prones do not prone anymore for example unlike the CW who ignores most of the CC- depression... which should not even be the case.
The issue is that most classes are given a survival mechanic, ie, guardian block, GWF unstoppable, TR stealth that makes them able to stay alive much better.
CWs "mechanic" IS control abilities. So its not a "all encounters are nerfed evenly" its a matter of: CWs only survivability was nerfed.
I dont have a CW, I have GWF/GF/TR. I have played a friends CW who is very geared on live, I tried a setup stacking tenacity over 1k + 32k HP + 1400 regen on the character and still got ROLLED over by a GWF.
The issue is that you dont have any way to "escape". Blink doesnt get you far enough away, and skills like repel are resisted what seems like half the time, not providing you with any reliable method of surviving or escaping.
On live, you can rely on some heavy CC to enable you to prone/control/escape when needed and still put out some very nice damage.
On the PTR, damage sucks because of tenacity (especially hurting crit builds - which is what most CWs are) and now their OTHER strength of "control" is nerfed as well, giving them no viability in games. Cant control, cant damage, cant survive.
Where as (from first hand experience) my GWF can STILL damage, prone, eat damage like a BOSS and is mobile as hell. My GF can dish out decent dmg, prones, block, and now has increased run speed due to set bonus. Oh and all those "prone" abilities are amazing damage dealers as well, like "Bull Rush" so even if its "resisted" itll still do good damage.
Honestly, only other CWs should be able to comment about CW "fairness" because after playing one, I really see just how completely STUPID it is...
First, this subforum is the Preview one. Has NOTHING to do with Live - for now.
I also said quite a few times - I will be very pleased for my CW to remain as it is now on Live without Tenacity.
Just don't force this upon our throats. Of course some don't care, cause they can still do their combos, and nothing changed - such as GWF, who are JUST as OP as on Live, with the mention that while on Live, with some luck, I can proc SF or might even kill good GWF, in Preview... I cannot do anything. Cool, huh?
As for GG, you serious? LOL. Against Luskan 20K HP newbies? I once had 40-0 KD, and I played like in PvE, with AoE skills for the lulz. Any CW can do great hidden behind some nasty GWFs and throwing bombs at the poor opponents. Put the CW in an even situation and things change.
So it's hard to understand? Why this update is dumb?
Not even the developers in full r10 and greatest gear and legendary artifacts couldn't play CW in PvP - they didn't score A SINGLE KILL.
Not ONE.
u do know all prones had base prone durutation reduced and it will be hit with aditional 20% reduction from tentacy? so they did nerf prones very much
good score of cws in gg dose not matter but u do know we will get 2 more zones like this in new module 3 update ?
cw are more then fine and will stay this way if anything dps and ap of cw need aditonal pvp and pve nerf no other class can have so easy daily skills or so big dps they even outpreform tr or hr on dps in pvp so what is your problem?if any class need buff it is tr and hr since caster outpreform their pvp dps by far
Everyone knows, that WoW frost mages are Overpowered. This isn't WoW, though and luckily it will never be. CW's should undergo the same penalties as every other class does. Prones do not prone anymore for example unlike the CW who ignores most of the CC- depression... which should not even be the case.
Coming out with the new pvp system is great and all but
One things that worries me is not having 2 separate queues.
they may be able to eventually balance classes somewhat and have elo matchmaking system but without a pug queue and a premade queue the games will remain unbalanced no matter what they do.
Every new pvper is usually a pugger when they first queue for domination.
by not putting in seprarate queues your telling all the players to form a premade or get wiped.
which pretty much removes any casual player from pvp domination.
Instead of having a gradual learning curve were you will eventually be in a premade with high end gear.
the unspoken truth will be farm gear for months or buy it then join a premade in order to compete in domination or get wiped.
kinda how it is now.
It seems to be just a bunch of premades farming pugs for glory.
so again how will a elo matchmaking system balance a premade on voice chat with a well organized hand picked group VS a equally balanced(gear/skill)group NOT on voice chat,NOT Organized,NOT hand picked???
Or is that the plan ONLY premade vs premade or get wiped.
yeah ranking wont help at all they need to make pug vs pug and prmade vs premade
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
u do know all prones had base prone durutation reduced and it will be hit with aditional 20% reduction from tentacy? so they did nerf prones very much
good score of cws in gg dose not matter but u do know we will get 2 more zones like this in new module 3 update ?
cw are more then fine and will stay this way if anything dps and ap of cw need aditonal pvp and pve nerf no other class can have so easy daily skills or so big dps they even outpreform tr or hr on dps in pvp so what is your problem?if any class need buff it is tr and hr since caster outpreform their pvp dps by far
- keep it about PvP please
- GF can build AP WAY, WAY, WAY faster than CW in almost all PvP situations. TR also can build AP faster. Dunno about others. Today for example I had to try and hold a node against a very good GF (we had full squish party) and because of the kiting needed, he had 3 daily compared to one from me.
And are you seriously wanting to nerf CWs in PvP? How can I consider you a serious poster
This is synonymous of me going to the DC temple and asking for nerfs to their class cause it's OP in PvP
Everyone knows, that WoW frost mages are Overpowered. This isn't WoW, though and luckily it will never be. CW's should undergo the same penalties as every other class does. Prones do not prone anymore for example unlike the CW who ignores most of the CC- depression... which should not even be the case.
Comments
Well technically it is only really Sentinel GWFs. Also perma-stealth TRs say hi.......
Lol @ image
No I understand your point perfectly well though. However, you are talking about a perfect world, with a perfectly balanced game, with perfectly balanced skills + items for each class, ect., to the point where classes do not "excel", but are all perfectly balanced. (Then again, its made by perfectworld so idk... maybe there is a chance with this one.) This just cannot happen. I also understand that its reasonable to ask for buffs when a class isn't balanced. (I did mention in my previous post that I am not saying CW shouldn't be buffed. I do believe it needs some kind of small buff for PvP. However, it has to be in line with the other aspects of CW and its actual function in group PvP.) Either way, the point is you are never going to have balanced PvP unless you are playing a game where every class is exactly the same with exactly the same capabilities and skills, exactly the same gear, exactly the same controls, ect. It is not possible to come up with a perfectly balanced system, and even in the most popular PvP games there are still classes or characters, ect. that are stronger than the others. Especially in a game like this one where the PvP is less skill dependent, you are going to see imbalances having a larger effect on the outcomes of matches because players can't compensate for it as much by playing with more skill. This game is very limited in its "skill" factor of PvP compared to other games that I currently play.
Another thing to note is that especially in an MMORPG there is even more reason to expect classes or characters to "excel" in areas. Classes are designed with a function. Some are dps, some are control, some are tanks, ect. This is what makes PvP and gameplay dynamic rather than the scenario mentioned above where everyone is exactly the same to make everything balanced. This is why CW should "excel" in control, but should not "excel" in dps or 1v1 capability when compared to the other classes. Most games do this with a "combat triangle" where certain classes are specifically designed to beat other classes.
Ultimately the point I was trying to suggest is that if losing is so frustrating because you are playing a weak class for one specific aspect of the game (PvP), then play a strong class. The reason it is "weak" is because it is a support class. Then again, you get back into the argument of what is strength in PvP. Being able to stun or debuff someone from out of range while your teammate kills them is pretty powerful, despite the fact that it may not be able to do a ton of damage ("weak"). The game is about having fun, and if you aren't having fun playing a class that is going to get sowreck3d easily, why would you continue to try to force it to work?
Maybe there is a misunderstanding when I say "force it to work". By this, I simply mean constantly trying to make it work in game when clearly the disadvantage is too much for it to be viable as one of the better PvP classes. When I say this I do not mean it is wrong to go on the forums and let people know that the class needs buffed. That is obviously what should be done.
The bigger point I was trying to make is that one shouldn't say not to go through with a large balance update just because it does not affect the fact that one class was not desirable in pvp and still isn't desirable. The changes have so much more to offer for what they do rather than what they don't, and they we shouldn't hold up the show because not everything we wanted was included.
Either way I think I'm getting into the point where I am repeating myself too much, so I am going to try to limit responses from now on.
Click on your name, then click on "show post history", read what you ask(ed) for. It is exactly what you just said you aren't asking for. And nobody is attacking you, actually i just think people read plenty of your former posts and have built their opinion already resulting in your point of view being ridiculed/ questioned.
Both me and astronax/tiah come from another game where a HUGE amount of work was put into balancing classes, and it still is, after 10 years of ongoing PvP in that game.
Were classes perfectly balanced? No.
But I never had any reason to complain about my Frost Mage - from Vanilla WoW, to Burning Crusade, to Cataclysm. I have a grand total amount of 0 (zero) posts in Blizz forums, just because I was mostly pleased of how stuff went.
Yet my mage was never OP - it was just balanced.
So it is totally possible. Please understand that.
Please quote where I say that:
- CW should own 1vs1 in PvP
- CW should be best PvP class
OK?
No quotes = invalid post.
Are you ready to dominate? Our PvP updates are coming this Thursday, 3/6, with new gear, a new Tenacity stat, matchmaking, and penalties for early leavers! #Neverwinter
- Straight off the Neverwinter Facebook page.
Note 1) CWs will HOPEFULLY be viable with control ignoring 66% of tenacity for duration effects ONLY and also NOT having deflect ruin the duration of CC effects.
Note 2) I do have to admit DCs feel lack luster in PVP atm, and essentially this PVP patch may ruin pvp for DCs - well see.
Overall: I thing the game will be MORE balanced than on live as a whole, with minor imbalances with classes like DC/CW potentially. I have done alot of testing on the PTR and will wait till it all roles live before making final judgements.
My BIGGEST concern is the leaver penalty however... Now how will PMs que?
I wish I had seen that video when it was uploaded. That was pretty hysterical
They did note that they are aware of this and have something in the future that will hopefully satisfy the PM vs PM desire. For now though with a matchmaking system at least there wont be a need to rely on premades vs premades to find good, high level, balanced fights.
LOL this is exactly. EXACTLY whats going on and will happen. Lol.
so far the devs have only acknowledged this is a bug, they didnt say they have any fix in sight for it... or did i miss that? im currently expecting that bug to make it to live on thursday and still be around awhile after that
persephone, as it is I agree with along the lines with pando in that it now needs a larger-scale combat testing to see how it works out. There's going to be a long painful period to some classes which did not benefit as much from other classes, but under these circumstances the developers need to see how things will initially shift around, and then simmer down to a "new meta". From that point, they can start tweaking stuff and re-iterate how the new order of things can really settle down.
... I'm hardly knowledgeable about CWs so I don't really know what to say to calm you down.
Just remember, PvPers simply adapt. Maybe there are a few things you've not tested out. Other unorthodox methods, maybe new ideas. I've thoroughly enjoyed the experience with Plaguefire in PvP by building a defense debuff TR -- it's unorthodox, but its unique and satisfying. Recently I am using Bronzewood and I'm immensely enjoying its effects as well. Maybe the CW can be built in a different method. Maybe there are few obscure details or traits or functions with the CW which nobody really thought was important and simply overlooked, that might turn out to be a jewel. There's got to be something else. Maybe in compensation the developers could slightly raise the magnitude of control WIS effects on CWs.
Just don't get too discouraged.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
You go with friends and guilds is exactly what i said before: 0,5% of the player base going there to test stuff.
First of all, it's not enough to create a "ranking" or test a matchmaking. Seriously. What numbers do you think the system would use? You will gain ZERO useful info about how matchmaking works. On live, even after 1 year of testing by 0,5% of the player base, it could work in a completely different way.
Last: you either value yourself and the few Others who could test tenacity, as a dream team of experienced beta testers, whose feedback alone is enough for a dev to have a clear picture of what works and what not, or you really think that feedback from a small % of players is enough.
Considering that inside this small %, there are guys wo like tenacity, guys who think it could be better, and guys who don't like it at all. Which ones would you consider "real feedback"? A small part inside this small Group of people who could test it?
It's not about time. It's about how many people test it. You seem to think that if you could test it alone for 10 years, your feedback would be as valuable as a test ran on 400.000 players. It's not how things work when you test stuff. Not just in games. In anything. You need a big enough number of subjects to have good data. Not a small number for more time.
It's toxic content? As i said, if people understands that it is not final content but a test, what is the problem? You give feedback and wait for it to get fixed. For example: it goes live. You say your CW will suck more. Ok. Then you come here and give feedback. Then thousands of other CWs give feedback. And, as we already saw with the cc buff on CWs, the devs will make changes to balance things.
From what you say, it seems like if they release these changes earlier, neverwinter will blow up and the game will die. It's not final content, it's subject to changes. I would say, weekly. Just relax and test stuff, and give feedback.
if is cw so underpowerd why then in top 10 places in gg pvp are mostly cw? why in domination cw are aslo good scored?
Could you upload a few screenshots?
Look.
There are playstyles and playstyles.
For example, I chose this type of char EXPRESSLY because:
- DPS ranged magic
- CC (!!!)
- debuffs
- Spike damage (!!!)
Basically, it's playing as close to a frost mage in WoW. And it worked satisfyingly for now.
I don't want to "adapt" and play as another thing I heavily dislike. My CC and spike damage are gone. Basically this stuff is what makes the game enjoyable from me.
Also you cannot really roll Wis CW, you need Int/Con, or you deal lame damage/die even faster than normal.
Always easy to be calm and collected about stuff that doesn't break your char. Nothing more to say about this.
First, this subforum is the Preview one. Has NOTHING to do with Live - for now.
I also said quite a few times - I will be very pleased for my CW to remain as it is now on Live without Tenacity.
Just don't force this upon our throats. Of course some don't care, cause they can still do their combos, and nothing changed - such as GWF, who are JUST as OP as on Live, with the mention that while on Live, with some luck, I can proc SF or might even kill good GWF, in Preview... I cannot do anything. Cool, huh?
As for GG, you serious? LOL. Against Luskan 20K HP newbies? I once had 40-0 KD, and I played like in PvE, with AoE skills for the lulz. Any CW can do great hidden behind some nasty GWFs and throwing bombs at the poor opponents. Put the CW in an even situation and things change.
So it's hard to understand? Why this update is dumb?
Not even the developers in full r10 and greatest gear and legendary artifacts couldn't play CW in PvP - they didn't score A SINGLE KILL.
Not ONE.
My GWF uses T1 PvP gear cause of the bonus HEALING during unstoppable, which i needed since my GWF is not a regeneration tank with monster HP, and the healing was very important. It gets a brute 50% nerf with healing depression.
My GWF damage relies on criticals and spike damage. Guess what, you're not the only one who went for a critical build for spike damage. 90% of players do that.
I used to use restoring strike cause i liked the power. Wait, it gets a nerf too with healing depression.
I use vorpal which will get a huge nerf, and right now it wil ltake a huge toll on me to build a terror enchant since the way i play (alone, no clan, not much time to play, money spent only for aestethics or respec, no credit card warrior) doesn't make me a AD billionaire and coal wards are at 200k AD now.
And again, i'm not a tank build. I'm not OP, i'm not immortal, i'm not a god in PvP, CWs can take me down if i make mistakes or if they are better than me. I'm a DPS build focused on high spike damage while trying to be more resilient than a Destroyer. Which means, with spike damage nerfed, i'm in the same boat as you, persephone.
I love how people make assumptions about me, that are wrong 99% of the time.
To you too: if you know nothing about someone, and about the build he uses, do not make assumptions.
I will have to heavily change my gear, my focus and the way i play. But i take it as a challenge and as an opportunity to try new stuff.
It's Always funny how this community behave.
They see you in PvP, they assume that since you are a GWF you are a sentinel IV tank. Which means, you've to tank 4-5 enemies or you're weak. But if you take them down, you're just another OP GWF. No matter if your build is not OP at all.
They see you on forums, and if you're a GWF you're for sure just a player who likes to play OP builds and everything you say is seen as an attempt to keep your class OP/ deceive people/ ignore problems.
I really wish people would actually stop making assumptions.
But it's the internetz, so i shouldn't be surprised.
It will be kinda messy at first but I think in the end its the fastest way to actually work out all the bugs.
I really dont think they can get it dialed in on the test server anyways so going live will be the best most direct route for feed back and testing.
Im gonna try to have fun with it.
Im guessing by the time mod 3 comes out it should be dialed in to were most of us will be happy.
The respec will happen when mod 3 comes out.
Moving on to the main point of my post, though...
The only thing I know is that when I come up against a CW in PvP on Live, all the CW has to do to guarantee a win against me is get his CC off before I do. After that, I'm perma-controlled while he solo-DPSes me to death in very short order. If I get my CC off first, it had better be Constricting or else he's going to cast and then it's over anyway.
+1 for CWs being brought back down to the Prime Material Plane. I hope the same happens to GWFs.
When Vorpal/Soulforged are the only "correct" choice for both PvP and PvE, then yes they definitely need a nerf - or something to indirectly nerf them and make other choices viable too. Before you say "you're just jealous because you don't want to get get your own," I could easily sell Zen and have PVorpal and PSoulforged if I wished, but you're correct - I simply don't want to. I'm not jealous though, just disgusted. Virtually everyone else I see is running with some manner of Vorpal and Soulforged. If it's not those two, it's Plaguefire and Negation. Other enchants are virtually unused in Neverwinter by comparison. Why do I want to join that crowd? I'll use the enchants I want to and everyone else can just deal with it. Other enchants should be viable too instead of just Vorpal and Soulforged, and I'm unhappy that this is not the case. So yes, please nerf Vorpal so that I can be happy.
Honestly. This is Neverwinter Online, not Perfect Vorpal Online.
I can't really say that absolutely everyone runs vorpal, but I'm sure this is 99% Lesser Soulforged Online.
On topic. The time I chose DC as a new toon they have rolled out Healing Depression. I'm not playing much, I don't farm CN and I play with a couple of friends so my AD income is very little. I'm using the same healing build for PVP and PVE with only swapping jewelry. After the update I'm forced to respec completely, completely change my gear and enchants to be viable in PVP. But I will no longer be viable in PVE as a pure PVP oriented tank cleric and I will no longer be viable in PVP as a PVE oriented healer cleric.
I hate HD. I hate that this affects healing spells. HP/regen combo - this is what overpowered, not DC's healing. DC have always been a punching dummy in PVP, and only after this tank DC META came out they have started to at least survive in PVP.
Devs considered DCs to be OP? OK, it's time to return to play my 17k IV Sentinel HP/Regen GWF that can 1vs3 almost anyone. Have fun.
One things that worries me is not having 2 separate queues.
they may be able to eventually balance classes somewhat and have elo matchmaking system but without a pug queue and a premade queue the games will remain unbalanced no matter what they do.
Every new pvper is usually a pugger when they first queue for domination.
by not putting in seprarate queues your telling all the players to form a premade or get wiped.
which pretty much removes any casual player from pvp domination.
Instead of having a gradual learning curve were you will eventually be in a premade with high end gear.
the unspoken truth will be farm gear for months or buy it then join a premade in order to compete in domination or get wiped.
kinda how it is now.
It seems to be just a bunch of premades farming pugs for glory.
so again how will a elo matchmaking system balance a premade on voice chat with a well organized hand picked group VS a equally balanced(gear/skill)group NOT on voice chat,NOT Organized,NOT hand picked???
Or is that the plan ONLY premade vs premade or get wiped.
It's quite possible I will roll a GWF or quit. You'd be surprised how many people I know are already quitting their CWs and leveling permas or IV sents.
As somebody put it in the PMvsPM channel:
Get used to 5 GWF parties, gonna be the norm, especially as you CANNOT arrange matches any longer, and CANNOT know the enemy team comp.
GG.
This discussion is over from my point of view, since there is no official response and they will push it whatever the feedback, just because
I have no reasons to play a game when it stops being fun, and I have no reasons to be a testing dummy for the devs, WITHOUT my approval (as in I voluntarily log on Preview to help with feedback).
That's about it from me, great job at destroying entire classes for PvP, and also destroying stuff that people like me spent countless hours working for, such as Perfect Vorpals/SF.
Control Wizards should have powerful control abilities.
I would also like to have confirmation about the deflect control issue and how that also severely hurts CWs control ability.
I have heard many people say these changes are killing the CW/DC classes. While I am holding out to make my FINAL assesment, I tend to agree that these changes really hurt CW alot more than others.
BTW, no GWF will be 3v1ing anybody anymore, people that say that are pretty ignorant of these changes. With Temp HP and regen nerfed hard. and matchmaking ensuring youll atleast be with other relatively decent players, GL even in a 2v1 scenario. It just wont happen.
Also, the fact that they tested and got so much feedback shows that they are not "forcing et down our throats" as well. They may be forcing it down your throat, but definitely not mine.
The issue is that most classes are given a survival mechanic, ie, guardian block, GWF unstoppable, TR stealth that makes them able to stay alive much better.
CWs "mechanic" IS control abilities. So its not a "all encounters are nerfed evenly" its a matter of: CWs only survivability was nerfed.
I dont have a CW, I have GWF/GF/TR. I have played a friends CW who is very geared on live, I tried a setup stacking tenacity over 1k + 32k HP + 1400 regen on the character and still got ROLLED over by a GWF.
The issue is that you dont have any way to "escape". Blink doesnt get you far enough away, and skills like repel are resisted what seems like half the time, not providing you with any reliable method of surviving or escaping.
On live, you can rely on some heavy CC to enable you to prone/control/escape when needed and still put out some very nice damage.
On the PTR, damage sucks because of tenacity (especially hurting crit builds - which is what most CWs are) and now their OTHER strength of "control" is nerfed as well, giving them no viability in games. Cant control, cant damage, cant survive.
Where as (from first hand experience) my GWF can STILL damage, prone, eat damage like a BOSS and is mobile as hell. My GF can dish out decent dmg, prones, block, and now has increased run speed due to set bonus. Oh and all those "prone" abilities are amazing damage dealers as well, like "Bull Rush" so even if its "resisted" itll still do good damage.
Honestly, only other CWs should be able to comment about CW "fairness" because after playing one, I really see just how completely STUPID it is...
u do know all prones had base prone durutation reduced and it will be hit with aditional 20% reduction from tentacy? so they did nerf prones very much
good score of cws in gg dose not matter but u do know we will get 2 more zones like this in new module 3 update ?
cw are more then fine and will stay this way if anything dps and ap of cw need aditonal pvp and pve nerf no other class can have so easy daily skills or so big dps they even outpreform tr or hr on dps in pvp so what is your problem?if any class need buff it is tr and hr since caster outpreform their pvp dps by far
yeah i agree
yeah ranking wont help at all they need to make pug vs pug and prmade vs premade
- keep it about PvP please
- GF can build AP WAY, WAY, WAY faster than CW in almost all PvP situations. TR also can build AP faster. Dunno about others. Today for example I had to try and hold a node against a very good GF (we had full squish party) and because of the kiting needed, he had 3 daily compared to one from me.
And are you seriously wanting to nerf CWs in PvP? How can I consider you a serious poster
This is synonymous of me going to the DC temple and asking for nerfs to their class cause it's OP in PvP
Sigh...
Great mage-hate here and in other of your posts