dissssppppMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 24Arc User
edited February 2014
Yep, if they just fixed the animations and made them quicker the class would be great. Having everything including drawing your shield take 2-4 seconds makes the class completely frustrating, especially when you're in the middle of a pack doing what your class is supposed to do, tank. Getting hit by 5+ things at once means combat ability speed is the most important thing, but we've got the longest animations of any class in the game. Completely backwards from what it should be.
Chop the animation speed in half for block, villain's menace, fighter's recovery and make them closer to lunging strike/crushing surge, and the class gets fixed. GWF's unstoppable is instant, and GF's daily that does basically the same thing on a smaller scale (VM) should be nearly as fast.
Kiting should be a strategy for classes that cannot tank! A tank class carrying a shield and heavy armor should not NEED to kite as his whole purpose is to take on the beast head on while his team kill him from behind...
If the game is going to proceed with needing to kite, the GF need the tools to do so, or the ability to change his role in the game to assist in another capacity!
Your GF is only lvl 50 you truly know next to nothing. It's probably built poorly to boot. As far as kiting goes you simply have no clue. I can kite better then any class in NWO on my GF. Into the fray......ever heard of it? Try it. Learn the class and hot to tank in this game before you start whining ok? All these people who claim GF isn't viable or wanted in late end game are deluded puggers who want to run 3 CW setups for super easy cheese. There is not one and I mean not one instance in this game I can not be viable in on my GF.
MOAR pewpew less QQ
My main char is a DC, I wanted to try something different so I started to play a GWF, it was really fun in the beginning but it gets boring when you realize how stupid easy is to play it, I'm usually close to 50 kills in GG PvP or 25-30 kills in pug pvp and even though this does no mean anything since GG/pug pvp is full of low GS players you can feel how easy is to kill 1 player with just a single combo, there's no challenge or real skill involved. Also when doing DPS is so lame that most of your damage comes ONLY from Deep Gash which is ridiculous because I remember this:
Devs want/wanted to reduce extra 6% DR that you get from Benefit of Foresight because it's too much but a feat like Deep Gash that grant you millions in damage is ok, that makes a lot of sense. Remove Deep Gash from any GWF and his DPS will be terrible.
Now, I wanted to try a GF because I want a challenge plus I'm expecting that they will receive some love sooner or later but unfortunately I start to think about CN/VT and the usefulness of this class, why would someone prefer a GF over another class in these dungeons when you can add another much more useful.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Your GF is only lvl 50 you truly know next to nothing. It's probably built poorly to boot. As far as kiting goes you simply have no clue. I can kite better then any class in NWO on my GF. Into the fray......ever heard of it? Try it. Learn the class and hot to tank in this game before you start whining ok? All these people who claim GF isn't viable or wanted in late end game are deluded puggers who want to run 3 CW setups for super easy cheese. There is not one and I mean not one instance in this game I can not be viable in on my GF.
MOAR pewpew less QQ
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I swear , unlike what seems , I do not " defend " the gwf by mere fanaticism. There are just certain injustices that I do not stand reading .
1 - I do not abandon the gwf even when he was the WORST class in the game . And let it be said in passing, I still sm ( who incidentally suffered nerf ) . Any excuse, is unfounded .
2 - most importantly , the module 1 created many posts discussing : A, what we're doing wrong . b: what is wrong with the class .
I guarantee that none of these posts was a trick to ask nerf other class. ALL that it says it is currently . Few here are ethical ( or smart ) to try to analyze the situation of gf - or another class - and think where he might fit into the current scenario of the game , without affecting other class . Everything is mass behavior .
If you are willing to create thousands of " traps " for gwf hoping that the lobby take , why not see a similar commitment to a more constructive approach ? Why ARE NOT spamming on the creation of an official thread for improvements to class ?
I can offer several, though what they are worth to you is relative;
1. Playing GF well is not easy, or quickly mastered. One word. Challenge.
2. Playing GF will teach you much about aggro that will be useful playing any class.
3. In the same vein, GF will teach you a lot about avoiding "red" without using a dodge.
4. When the wheel turns, which it does, you may find yourself with a longer list, and few peers.
5. Last but not least, when you do find success, (which you can in both PvE and PvP) you get the satisfaction of knowing it comes from your own skill and will.
If those aren't the sort of things that float your boat, its not for you, at the moment anyway.
Personally, my GF has been my main since shorty after release. I have alts; I enjoy them and have learned from them. That said, I always go back to the GF. I have seen the "wheel" turn a few times, and have enjoyed the class both in "good" times and "bad".
One thing I have been giving some thought is the lack of guides since the early days of the game (I don't mean builds). Maybe it is time for some of the more experienced GF's who are still in game to sit down and write one that deals with what it takes to make GF work, and maybe take a stab at illustrating all the ways a GF can effect a fight that do not cleanly show in DPS meters.
- Copper
0
dante123plMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 282Arc User
My GF is nearly 18.5k GS with a greater plaguefire and I get smoked in DPS and survivability by GWF's at the 14k+ range. The only thing GF does better is agro, but what good is that when you draw every mob's CC ability and are stuck constantly drawing your shield instead of just hitting tab and fighting through it? I've pretty much given up on the class for now and started up a CW the other day. The mobility difference is night and day, and not being hit by constant knockbacks, knockdowns, stuns, silences makes me wish I had made the decision to switch much earlier.
If you want to play a melee class there is absolutely no reason to pick a GF over a GWF right now.
You need to learn what to block. When it comes to elite trash and bosses an experienced GF should be able pick up the animation for a hit that stuns/prones you and that is what you block. The rest, you just eat the damage. Also, you can move. You don't have to stand in the middle and get battered. Just be smart how you move if you are holding aggro so you don't cause the enemy to cast its AOEs/attacks against the rest of your party.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
My GF is nearly 18.5k GS with a greater plaguefire and I get smoked in DPS and survivability by GWF's at the 14k+ range. The only thing GF does better is agro, but what good is that when you draw every mob's CC ability and are stuck constantly drawing your shield instead of just hitting tab and fighting through it? I've pretty much given up on the class for now and started up a CW the other day. The mobility difference is night and day, and not being hit by constant knockbacks, knockdowns, stuns, silences makes me wish I had made the decision to switch much earlier.
If you want to play a melee class there is absolutely no reason to pick a GF over a GWF right now.
You need to learn what to block. When it comes to elite trash and bosses an experienced GF should be able pick up the animation for a hit that stuns/prones you and that is what you block. The rest, you just eat the damage. Also, you can move. You don't have to stand in the middle and get battered. Just be smart how you move if you are holding aggro so you don't cause the enemy to cast its AOEs/attacks against the rest of your party.
And as the GF it is between you and the DC to dictate where the battle is fought and who you pull in. Doing this will allow you to limit the size of the mob that hits you and thus ensure you are not perma-rooted while your shield melts, so you are infinitely more useful. Don't let the DPS guys set the tempo. And if the DPS guys ***** then they should not have brought a class into a dungeon that is designed to fight in a controlled manner.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
I can offer several, though what they are worth to you is relative;
1. Playing GF well is not easy, or quickly mastered. One word. Challenge.
2. Playing GF will teach you much about aggro that will be useful playing any class.
3. In the same vein, GF will teach you a lot about avoiding "red" without using a dodge.
4. When the wheel turns, which it does, you may find yourself with a longer list, and few peers.
5. Last but not least, when you do find success, (which you can in both PvE and PvP) you get the satisfaction of knowing it comes from your own skill and will.
If those aren't the sort of things that float your boat, its not for you, at the moment anyway.
Personally, my GF has been my main since shorty after release. I have alts; I enjoy them and have learned from them. That said, I always go back to the GF. I have seen the "wheel" turn a few times, and have enjoyed the class both in "good" times and "bad".
One thing I have been giving some thought is the lack of guides since the early days of the game (I don't mean builds). Maybe it is time for some of the more experienced GF's who are still in game to sit down and write one that deals with what it takes to make GF work, and maybe take a stab at illustrating all the ways a GF can effect a fight that do not cleanly show in DPS meters.
- Copper
This. I do not main my GF but she made me better at managing mobs with everything else. GF is hard. You have to watch the whole engagement and shift to what works with your party. What we call in chess positional play. Do it right and it is beautiful. Do it wrong and you are a guard meter with legs and the legs are not doing you any good.
I have a GF and an GWF at about 14k gs. I really cannot see any reason to continue playing the GF. The GWF does more DPS has better survivability and I have yet to find a situation that the GF is prefered (PVP or PVE). Plus the GWF is just alot more fun to play.
So any reason I should keep my GF up?
In solo fights situations where my gwf had difficulties fighting a group (read: was not able to just facetank the elite while AOE-ing the trash) I was finding it much easier with my never-die GF who, despoite much less GS seemed just invincible.
In easy situations on the opposite, the GF needed much more time to kill the trash.
So I guess it's all about the relative strength of the chars and the "environment" (the E from PvE). The environment has not been strengthened up, while our chars have received boons, artifacts, companion passive bonusses. If mod3 makes the environment strong again, then the GFs will be back with a bang.
I enjoyed it in skirmishes when my GF was running 1v1 at the final boss while all the other chars were remaining at a safe distance. This was long ago.
I love my GF.
I mostly use Knights Valor, Into the Fray, and Enforced Threat with Enhanced Mark and Steel Defense and the daily Supremacy of Steel. Ive loaded mine with Life Steal, defense, and deflect. Having the Dread Warrior companion helps too...
(Active Bonus: On Damage Taken 10% chance to become enraged, increasing threat generation by 15%).
I dont have any issues staying alive and keeping agro. Having a good party that knows how to play their respective classes doesnt hurt either.
There are some good GF builds on MMOminds. You just have to try playing a GWF and GF and see what you prefer.
Life is full of drains, I prefer to be a fountain
0
dissssppppMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 24Arc User
You need to learn what to block. When it comes to elite trash and bosses an experienced GF should be able pick up the animation for a hit that stuns/prones you and that is what you block. The rest, you just eat the damage. Also, you can move. You don't have to stand in the middle and get battered. Just be smart how you move if you are holding aggro so you don't cause the enemy to cast its AOEs/attacks against the rest of your party.
Yes, I'm very familiar with the dynamics of the class. I've done MC 3/3 probably 30 times and 2/3 probably another 30. The fact remains that the most efficient way to go through T2+ dungeons is to group stuff up and AE it down. I'm not saying it's undoable. When you've got a pack that has shaman, cyclops, trolls and those redcaps that make you prone, it's not as simple as just blocking a single AE.
0
tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
The only reason I can think of for GF is the insane single target damage it can put out.
Here's the biggest crit from an MC run.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Anvil of Doom deals 106583 (59358) Physical to Fulminorax. That's going into lolwut territory.
17k Cleaves too.
RIP Neverwinter 26/06/2014
0
auzfireMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
edited February 2014
The amount of setup needed to pull off a single hit of that magnitude, vice the HR simply having to use an at will over and over - do not confuse a once every dozen seconds spike with insane single target damage.
Thanks for the opinions. I still play my GF just sorta back burner now. Mainly because I didnt make a "tank" to kite mobs around. I just dont like that playstyle. I understand you have to move, thats fine, but the shield is soooo weak and the GF movement is painfully slow, this is just not enjoyable for me.
I have my GF built as a tank not as a dps also. I realize thats not how most people tank. This is another aspect of the GF that bothers me, I feel a tank spec should be viable, not a dps kiting spec to "tank".
Its ok im not mad or going to rage quit or anything, this is just not what I expected when I created a GF.
The GWF is fun so thats mostly what im playing.
0
willsommersMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 103
edited February 2014
Doing this will allow you to limit the size of the mob
Or just take some control classes/AOE DPS and pull everything and get done with the dungeon 4x faster. GF has a place - helping weak, inexperienced groups. Even totally decked out for damage it still slows down an experienced group and in this game there is no need to tank - anything. New GF class title "The anchor". Every ship's got one.....
Not at all like GWF, definitely not in demand either:( but omg the gear is cheap as ... and in pvp it is soooo fun to play because of bull's rush. If fotm class wasn't so numerous in pvp atm(basically decides who wins) I would play my GF as a main.
My main has been a GF since beta and I still enjoy playing him. There is definitely a lot to learn to be a good GF and it is hard at times. Being a GF is not for everybody. Learn to move well and only use the shield to block when necessary. I only use it to block something I can't move away from or just to gain AP faster when I want it. A good GF keeps the battles organized and not always by tanking everything. Sometimes it is necessary to kite, or to separate adds from the boss, or vice versa. I play a CW as an alt and have tried all of the other classes as well but the GF is still my favorite to play.
The GWF got abilities only used by the GF, the GF lacks AOE and allowing Deep Gash to the GF would fix that!
Sure, but they don't need it. The GF does have some AoE such as Enforced Threat and Frontline Surge, and plenty of other nice tidbits including the ability to block large amounts of incoming damage.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
0
auzfireMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
edited February 2014
The GF certainly does not need 'Moar Damage' which is all that Deep Gash really is. If your fix is to give the GF more damage, you might as well just remove it from the game and only have GWF. Classes that are the same, should just be the same class. The GF needs to be different. So the real problem is this prevalent idea that the way to win is to bring as much damage as possible, which in turn comes from the problem that dungeon design is basically just a bunch of bags of HP to mow through.
What I think, is that there needs to be an equivalent to the 'opportunity attack' mechanic that you see in the pen and paper game. If a ranger shooting a bow or a wizard casting a spell took an auto hit from every baddie within a short distance (melee range basically), but a baddie with a mark took an auto hit from a nearby GF when ever it attacked someone other than the GF, the dynamic of the game would change drastically.
Look - I don't know how to fix the problem of the GF being basically unneeded at the end game, but making it into another DPS class is a waste of time.
Comments
Chop the animation speed in half for block, villain's menace, fighter's recovery and make them closer to lunging strike/crushing surge, and the class gets fixed. GWF's unstoppable is instant, and GF's daily that does basically the same thing on a smaller scale (VM) should be nearly as fast.
Your GF is only lvl 50 you truly know next to nothing. It's probably built poorly to boot. As far as kiting goes you simply have no clue. I can kite better then any class in NWO on my GF. Into the fray......ever heard of it? Try it. Learn the class and hot to tank in this game before you start whining ok? All these people who claim GF isn't viable or wanted in late end game are deluded puggers who want to run 3 CW setups for super easy cheese. There is not one and I mean not one instance in this game I can not be viable in on my GF.
MOAR pewpew less QQ
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
1 - I do not abandon the gwf even when he was the WORST class in the game . And let it be said in passing, I still sm ( who incidentally suffered nerf ) . Any excuse, is unfounded .
2 - most importantly , the module 1 created many posts discussing : A, what we're doing wrong . b: what is wrong with the class .
I guarantee that none of these posts was a trick to ask nerf other class. ALL that it says it is currently . Few here are ethical ( or smart ) to try to analyze the situation of gf - or another class - and think where he might fit into the current scenario of the game , without affecting other class . Everything is mass behavior .
If you are willing to create thousands of " traps " for gwf hoping that the lobby take , why not see a similar commitment to a more constructive approach ? Why ARE NOT spamming on the creation of an official thread for improvements to class ?
1. Playing GF well is not easy, or quickly mastered. One word. Challenge.
2. Playing GF will teach you much about aggro that will be useful playing any class.
3. In the same vein, GF will teach you a lot about avoiding "red" without using a dodge.
4. When the wheel turns, which it does, you may find yourself with a longer list, and few peers.
5. Last but not least, when you do find success, (which you can in both PvE and PvP) you get the satisfaction of knowing it comes from your own skill and will.
If those aren't the sort of things that float your boat, its not for you, at the moment anyway.
Personally, my GF has been my main since shorty after release. I have alts; I enjoy them and have learned from them. That said, I always go back to the GF. I have seen the "wheel" turn a few times, and have enjoyed the class both in "good" times and "bad".
One thing I have been giving some thought is the lack of guides since the early days of the game (I don't mean builds). Maybe it is time for some of the more experienced GF's who are still in game to sit down and write one that deals with what it takes to make GF work, and maybe take a stab at illustrating all the ways a GF can effect a fight that do not cleanly show in DPS meters.
- Copper
ITS A TRAP.
You need to learn what to block. When it comes to elite trash and bosses an experienced GF should be able pick up the animation for a hit that stuns/prones you and that is what you block. The rest, you just eat the damage. Also, you can move. You don't have to stand in the middle and get battered. Just be smart how you move if you are holding aggro so you don't cause the enemy to cast its AOEs/attacks against the rest of your party.
You need to learn what to block. When it comes to elite trash and bosses an experienced GF should be able pick up the animation for a hit that stuns/prones you and that is what you block. The rest, you just eat the damage. Also, you can move. You don't have to stand in the middle and get battered. Just be smart how you move if you are holding aggro so you don't cause the enemy to cast its AOEs/attacks against the rest of your party.
And as the GF it is between you and the DC to dictate where the battle is fought and who you pull in. Doing this will allow you to limit the size of the mob that hits you and thus ensure you are not perma-rooted while your shield melts, so you are infinitely more useful. Don't let the DPS guys set the tempo. And if the DPS guys ***** then they should not have brought a class into a dungeon that is designed to fight in a controlled manner.
In solo fights situations where my gwf had difficulties fighting a group (read: was not able to just facetank the elite while AOE-ing the trash) I was finding it much easier with my never-die GF who, despoite much less GS seemed just invincible.
In easy situations on the opposite, the GF needed much more time to kill the trash.
So I guess it's all about the relative strength of the chars and the "environment" (the E from PvE). The environment has not been strengthened up, while our chars have received boons, artifacts, companion passive bonusses. If mod3 makes the environment strong again, then the GFs will be back with a bang.
I enjoyed it in skirmishes when my GF was running 1v1 at the final boss while all the other chars were remaining at a safe distance. This was long ago.
I mostly use Knights Valor, Into the Fray, and Enforced Threat with Enhanced Mark and Steel Defense and the daily Supremacy of Steel. Ive loaded mine with Life Steal, defense, and deflect. Having the Dread Warrior companion helps too...
(Active Bonus: On Damage Taken 10% chance to become enraged, increasing threat generation by 15%).
I dont have any issues staying alive and keeping agro. Having a good party that knows how to play their respective classes doesnt hurt either.
There are some good GF builds on MMOminds. You just have to try playing a GWF and GF and see what you prefer.
Yes, I'm very familiar with the dynamics of the class. I've done MC 3/3 probably 30 times and 2/3 probably another 30. The fact remains that the most efficient way to go through T2+ dungeons is to group stuff up and AE it down. I'm not saying it's undoable. When you've got a pack that has shaman, cyclops, trolls and those redcaps that make you prone, it's not as simple as just blocking a single AE.
Here's the biggest crit from an MC run.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Anvil of Doom deals 106583 (59358) Physical to Fulminorax. That's going into lolwut territory.
17k Cleaves too.
Thanks for the opinions. I still play my GF just sorta back burner now. Mainly because I didnt make a "tank" to kite mobs around. I just dont like that playstyle. I understand you have to move, thats fine, but the shield is soooo weak and the GF movement is painfully slow, this is just not enjoyable for me.
I have my GF built as a tank not as a dps also. I realize thats not how most people tank. This is another aspect of the GF that bothers me, I feel a tank spec should be viable, not a dps kiting spec to "tank".
Its ok im not mad or going to rage quit or anything, this is just not what I expected when I created a GF.
The GWF is fun so thats mostly what im playing.
Or just take some control classes/AOE DPS and pull everything and get done with the dungeon 4x faster. GF has a place - helping weak, inexperienced groups. Even totally decked out for damage it still slows down an experienced group and in this game there is no need to tank - anything. New GF class title "The anchor". Every ship's got one.....
I have a GWF but its so linear and borring to play that i would quit the game eventually
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
yes they are both fighters but thier use is completely different which is why thier feats are different.
its more than just a shield or two handed sword the mentality of the two fighters is also completely different.
go ahead and wear full plate then put on a scale suit it will be a huge difference to movement.
try running then slash around you it wont be an effective slash because your feet arent planted.
gwf is such a neaderthalic class what i mean is less thought is needed to play it which is why its popular.
its just rush smash and crush its not like gf really at all.
both are extremely fun to play.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
SENT IV GWF - PVP
Sure, but they don't need it. The GF does have some AoE such as Enforced Threat and Frontline Surge, and plenty of other nice tidbits including the ability to block large amounts of incoming damage.
What I think, is that there needs to be an equivalent to the 'opportunity attack' mechanic that you see in the pen and paper game. If a ranger shooting a bow or a wizard casting a spell took an auto hit from every baddie within a short distance (melee range basically), but a baddie with a mark took an auto hit from a nearby GF when ever it attacked someone other than the GF, the dynamic of the game would change drastically.
Look - I don't know how to fix the problem of the GF being basically unneeded at the end game, but making it into another DPS class is a waste of time.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!