*SNIP*I wouldn't mind at all if that dmg was moved from me to him on the paingiver chart.
That there is part of the solution: Recognition
A class can buff/debuff their party so much that the entire party seems like a superstar, but no one cares because it isn't recognized nor valued.
All people see are the end charts and ACT results, from which there is no category for 1st place buffer/debuffer... Just 1st place loser, which is where MOST (not all) GF's & DC's usually end up (and sometimes TRs). Sure, we get "most damage taken", but who cares about that? There needs to be some kind of MVP stat or team support stat or something that all can potentially win, which would help with recognition.
If they plan to invoke some kind of ELO system, I feel they should make room in the charts for such things so we can get some much needed recognition.
"It is said that idle hands are the Devil's tools: Idle geek hands, however, came up with gunpowder, nuclear weapons, and toilet plungers." -Illiad
I'm new to this game, but have been playing mmos as a tank since Everquest, so I thought I'd throw in my two cents.
I'm not anywhere near level 60, but I can already see some pretty glaring issues that would not only impact the usefulness of the GF class, but also in my opinion hurts the game overall.
1.) Too much emphasis on AoE in dungeons, at least so far (though I've read it is a persistent problem). This is a problem because it makes aggro management difficult right off the bat, because people are encouraged to just go balls to the wall and spam AoE. This wouldn't be a problem necessarily, but the GF has some of the worst aggro generation capability of any tank class I've ever played in an mmo. Sure, the mobs in this game so far seem to die pretty quickly, without doing much damage (in addition to the flat out absurdly OP CC capabilities of CW's, more on that later), but it's psychologically damaging. Not only does it make me feel somewhat ill-equipped to perform my duties as a tank, it seems to make other players disregard the value of a tank. I won't even get into the brain dead easy bosses that are padded by waves of adds, which is every boss so far.
2.) GF damage is pathetic, even for a tank. This exacerbates aggro issues, and I imagine also further ingrains in peoples minds that if it can be CCed and burned, why ever take a GF?
3.) Lower than optimal aggro production and damage are just minor annoyances compared to this issue: CC in this game is absolutely out of control. Why use a tank when you can just lock everything down with CC and nuke the hell out of it? I could write a book about all the reasons this sucks and is bad game design, but I think its pretty self-evident to be honest. This problem also makes pvp in this game a joke, when it could otherwise be pretty damned fun. I played WoW for 7 years, and even mace spec Rogues and Stormherald, mace spec Arms Warriors, combined with a Frost Mage, during the Burning Crusade expansion, were an absolute cakewalk joke compared to how laugh out loud stupid CC is in this games pvp.
The solutions seem simple to me.
1.) Buff GF aggro generation capability. Not by a huge amount, but I feel a buff is in order.
2.) Buff GF damage. Perhaps not at a base level or all around, but at LEAST the Swordmaster path.
3.) There either needs to be retroactive changes, or at the very least in the future, boss encounter design needs to change. This 2 trick pony, moron boss with tidal waves of adds trend in this game is terrible. Less focus on adds, and more focus on a single target that is very dangerous and needs to be handled carefully would not only make the dungeons more compelling, challenging, and fun, it would also increase the value of a tank.
4.) Most importantly, CC in this game needs to be brought to heel badly. More enemies need to be made immune to CC, and there needs to be a diminishing returns system put into place (especially for pvp). IF there is a DR system in this game, and I'm not aware of it, then it needs to be beefed up. Some abilities need to be on the same DR table, or the immunity or duration reduction when the threshold is reached needs to be increased by a decent margin. This is preferable to nerfing the hell out of the CW class.
I could be wrong, as I am speaking from a position of inexperience with this game, and I know its all rather simply stated, but I believe the above changes would for sure improve the QOL and allure of the GF class, while also going a long ways towards fixing pvp.
Nerfing is not a solution and in many cases just creates other problems. After reading this thread it's pretty clear that significantly increasing the HP levels for mobs and boss's along with damage output would be the best solution. I believe this would stop the speed running and class discrimination.
You may as well name your proposed solution "Nail in the coffin".
The very last thing this game needs is higher HP on mobs so that control becomes even more neccesary. Such a solution will simply increase the demand of CWs, and make tanking even less desirable. No, absolutely no. What we need are more directed attacks (as opposed to the current AOE spam that makes tanking almost irrelevant), and CC resistance on both mobs and players.
I'm new to this game, but have been playing mmos as a tank since Everquest, so I thought I'd throw in my two cents.
I'm not anywhere near level 60, but I can already see some pretty glaring issues that would not only impact the usefulness of the GF class, but also in my opinion hurts the game overall.
1.) Too much emphasis on AoE in dungeons, at least so far (though I've read it is a persistent problem). This is a problem because it makes aggro management difficult right off the bat, because people are encouraged to just go balls to the wall and spam AoE. This wouldn't be a problem necessarily, but the GF has some of the worst aggro generation capability of any tank class I've ever played in an mmo. Sure, the mobs in this game so far seem to die pretty quickly, without doing much damage (in addition to the flat out absurdly OP CC capabilities of CW's, more on that later), but it's psychologically damaging. Not only does it make me feel somewhat ill-equipped to perform my duties as a tank, it seems to make other players disregard the value of a tank. I won't even get into the brain dead easy bosses that are padded by waves of adds, which is every boss so far.
2.) GF damage is pathetic, even for a tank. This exacerbates aggro issues, and I imagine also further ingrains in peoples minds that if it can be CCed and burned, why ever take a GF?
3.) Lower than optimal aggro production and damage are just minor annoyances compared to this issue: CC in this game is absolutely out of control. Why use a tank when you can just lock everything down with CC and nuke the hell out of it? I could write a book about all the reasons this sucks and is bad game design, but I think its pretty self-evident to be honest. This problem also makes pvp in this game a joke, when it could otherwise be pretty damned fun. I played WoW for 7 years, and even mace spec Rogues and Stormherald, mace spec Arms Warriors, combined with a Frost Mage, during the Burning Crusade expansion, were an absolute cakewalk joke compared to how laugh out loud stupid CC is in this games pvp.
The solutions seem simple to me.
1.) Buff GF aggro generation capability. Not by a huge amount, but I feel a buff is in order.
2.) Buff GF damage. Perhaps not at a base level or all around, but at LEAST the Swordmaster path.
3.) There either needs to be retroactive changes, or at the very least in the future, boss encounter design needs to change. This 2 trick pony, moron boss with tidal waves of adds trend in this game is terrible. Less focus on adds, and more focus on a single target that is very dangerous and needs to be handled carefully would not only make the dungeons more compelling, challenging, and fun, it would also increase the value of a tank.
4.) Most importantly, CC in this game needs to be brought to heel badly. More enemies need to be made immune to CC, and there needs to be a diminishing returns system put into place (especially for pvp). IF there is a DR system in this game, and I'm not aware of it, then it needs to be beefed up. Some abilities need to be on the same DR table, or the immunity or duration reduction when the threshold is reached needs to be increased by a decent margin. This is preferable to nerfing the hell out of the CW class.
I could be wrong, as I am speaking from a position of inexperience with this game, and I know its all rather simply stated, but I believe the above changes would for sure improve the QOL and allure of the GF class, while also going a long ways towards fixing pvp.
Amen to that, but I'd also say that the whole "CC is out of control" is true for many mobs as well. I have stayed chain-proned for well over 10 seconds, and well, suffice to say that is not fun. And yes, it is probably my fault for getting proned the 1st time, but come on, there has to be a limit to the whole feast.
Also, because the mobs spam so much CC, the only practical solution is...to fight fire with fire!!! stun them into oblivion before they do the same to you. Really, no fun,
Again i might play a different game than you guys do, i play a game where i am a freaking living singularity where all the mobs surround me while the rest of the party just spam their stuff to melt the mobs, i play a game where while using half of my at wills and one of my encounters on 0 dps i end up in the middle of the pack of dps dealt while often topping ALL THE OTHER CHARTS, so i get top kills, top damage received, top healz ^_^ and obviously i die more than anyone xD, GFs need whatever happened to GWFs, a change of perception from the players, but instead of GWFs that wont happen with moar dps, that needs an entire overhaul of how dungeons are...
I like to recruit 4 high dps players when i conect to play (less and less everyday) and just stomp throught VT in 15 minutes, or through CN in 35 whithout DC, and the game is just awesome, mobs melting like is nothing, packs and packs of them, but i really doubt Devs thought the game should be this way, endgame now is just pointless, futile, at least for the portion of us who have uber endgear (rank9-10s in all slots, 3 epic-legendary artifacts, all boons, all t2.5 weaponry) and almost a year of experience, doesnt matter if you are a gf, a dc, a gwf, cw, tr, hr, doesnt matter, the game is becoming boring because there is no challenge on it, and when you pug random pug group and they are AWFUL you just dont have fun, you suffer, and get on your nerves.
Game needs a serious endgame overhaul, i dont know how, i will write an extensive post later to offer a few ideas, but as it is now, GFs are not needed on uber high end game, but neither are any other class other than CWs and GWFs.
Agree wholeheartedly, I am level 34 GF with an epic weapon and I find myself trying to increase my DPS at the cost of my own threat generation and damage mitigation. I find even with full talents in threat I cannot maintain all adds and Boss.
I feel the GF is a wasted class, I am considering leaving the toon and leveling something else as his damage is pathetically low I have to stop DPS to block whereas other classes just have to DPS and have defensives that are fluid to their DPSing.
GF need some tweaking, as We are not the best at our jobs, we cannot fulfill another classes role, and we are not really needed!
Hell a bunch of man at arms companions can do what we do, pretty pathetic.
I'm new to this game, but have been playing mmos as a tank since Everquest, so I thought I'd throw in my two cents.
I'm not anywhere near level 60, but I can already see some pretty glaring issues that would not only impact the usefulness of the GF class, but also in my opinion hurts the game overall.
1.) Too much emphasis on AoE in dungeons, at least so far (though I've read it is a persistent problem). This is a problem because it makes aggro management difficult right off the bat, because people are encouraged to just go balls to the wall and spam AoE. This wouldn't be a problem necessarily, but the GF has some of the worst aggro generation capability of any tank class I've ever played in an mmo. Sure, the mobs in this game so far seem to die pretty quickly, without doing much damage (in addition to the flat out absurdly OP CC capabilities of CW's, more on that later), but it's psychologically damaging. Not only does it make me feel somewhat ill-equipped to perform my duties as a tank, it seems to make other players disregard the value of a tank. I won't even get into the brain dead easy bosses that are padded by waves of adds, which is every boss so far.
2.) GF damage is pathetic, even for a tank. This exacerbates aggro issues, and I imagine also further ingrains in peoples minds that if it can be CCed and burned, why ever take a GF?
3.) Lower than optimal aggro production and damage are just minor annoyances compared to this issue: CC in this game is absolutely out of control. Why use a tank when you can just lock everything down with CC and nuke the hell out of it? I could write a book about all the reasons this sucks and is bad game design, but I think its pretty self-evident to be honest. This problem also makes pvp in this game a joke, when it could otherwise be pretty damned fun. I played WoW for 7 years, and even mace spec Rogues and Stormherald, mace spec Arms Warriors, combined with a Frost Mage, during the Burning Crusade expansion, were an absolute cakewalk joke compared to how laugh out loud stupid CC is in this games pvp.
The solutions seem simple to me.
1.) Buff GF aggro generation capability. Not by a huge amount, but I feel a buff is in order.
2.) Buff GF damage. Perhaps not at a base level or all around, but at LEAST the Swordmaster path.
3.) There either needs to be retroactive changes, or at the very least in the future, boss encounter design needs to change. This 2 trick pony, moron boss with tidal waves of adds trend in this game is terrible. Less focus on adds, and more focus on a single target that is very dangerous and needs to be handled carefully would not only make the dungeons more compelling, challenging, and fun, it would also increase the value of a tank.
4.) Most importantly, CC in this game needs to be brought to heel badly. More enemies need to be made immune to CC, and there needs to be a diminishing returns system put into place (especially for pvp). IF there is a DR system in this game, and I'm not aware of it, then it needs to be beefed up. Some abilities need to be on the same DR table, or the immunity or duration reduction when the threshold is reached needs to be increased by a decent margin. This is preferable to nerfing the hell out of the CW class.
I could be wrong, as I am speaking from a position of inexperience with this game, and I know its all rather simply stated, but I believe the above changes would for sure improve the QOL and allure of the GF class, while also going a long ways towards fixing pvp.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Again i might play a different game than you guys do, ...
uber endgear (rank9-10s in all slots, 3 epic-legendary artifacts, all boons, all t2.5 weaponry)
You, as a matter of fact, do. Not holding it againts you, but keep that in mind.
In several threads I've seen the suggestion of magic resistant mobs. One thing that occurred to me was instead having AOE resistant elite mobs. The stat already exists in game, it's shown on players ability score tooltips. Right now, even with large dangerous CC immune mobs like Totemists, people still suggest using Sing to pile the rest of the mobs on top of the CC immune one and burn it all down with AOE. If that AOE did significantly less damage to the elite but still built aggro, the tactic wouldn't work very well. Having a GF to separate the elite from the rest would be useful and would also provide a reason for a TR to be there as well.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
In several threads I've seen the suggestion of magic resistant mobs. One thing that occurred to me was instead having AOE resistant elite mobs. The stat already exists in game, it's shown on players ability score tooltips. Right now, even with large dangerous CC immune mobs like Totemists, people still suggest using Sing to pile the rest of the mobs on top of the CC immune one and burn it all down with AOE. If that AOE did significantly less damage to the elite but still built aggro, the tactic wouldn't work very well. Having a GF to separate the elite from the rest would be useful and would also provide a reason for a TR to be there as well.
It is an interesting suggestion. As the game works now, there is no reason to bring a GF or TR to a dungeon. The usual method is to bring as many CW as you have available and optionally a DC, and if there is still place left add a GWF or two. I think key to make other classes useful is in the threat system and crowd control, especially when it comes to threat from AoE. I think that needs a major revision, but your suggestion could be enough.
The problem with the GF for me is that the GWF does everything that the GF does... but better. Why take an inferior version of a melee tank on a dungeon run?
Maybe make GWF and CW need to choose a path of increased AOE or Single Target DPS making them not as useful?
Any change seen as a nerf to the CW has only lead to parties stacking more wizards and pre-module 2, the GWF was seen as a dead class. IMO it's probably better to try and buff the classes that need it while changing the dungeons to promote more balanced parties. CWs can do good single target damage but against control immune mobs run the risk of lowering their DPS as they spend more time kiting than casting. At the moment GWFs can rival TRs single target damage, but again, I'd buff the TR's damage rather than nerf another class, especially since GWF was left out of parties far longer than TRs and GF's have been.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
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theheroshieldMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 24Arc User
edited February 2014
I think the two major problems facing the GF right now are:
1) Lack of aggro management
2) Lack of specialization
When I go into a group I find I'm not getting nearly enough aggro. People never seem to complain, and if anything I've had compliments, but based on how the game is designed there should be either the biggest add on me or almost every other smaller add. I normally only have about half the adds on me and have to repeatedily tab and ET to get the rest of them on me. And between a quickly shredded shield and low DPS they quickly lose their interest. Aggro should not disappear the moment another player ticks a slighter higher DPS, especially not if the add suffers lack of combat advantage and provokes an attack opportunity from me (although the latter has made me LOL more than once).
Second, the GF needs to regain their ability to tank the big baddies. TRs should not tank them, and certainly not the CW. It's okay for the GWF to do so, but it should leave the risk of the big baddie running off on them to squish the TR and CW. Ideally, imo, a battle should involve the CW rounding up the little mobs for the GWF to hack to bites, the GF and the TR trashing the big CC-immune baddie while the DC keeps everyone alive. As for the HR he could work the room, picking off all the mobile adds the GWF doesn't have time to take down (because he's busy keeping the other adds from swarming the CW on cool-down) and the CW can't reach.
It can work, but the system (mostly the adds) need a change to balance the team.
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nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Any change seen as a nerf to the CW has only lead to parties stacking more wizards and pre-module 2, the GWF was seen as a dead class. IMO it's probably better to try and buff the classes that need it while changing the dungeons to promote more balanced parties. CWs can do good single target damage but against control immune mobs run the risk of lowering their DPS as they spend more time kiting than casting. At the moment GWFs can rival TRs single target damage, but again, I'd buff the TR's damage rather than nerf another class, especially since GWF was left out of parties far longer than TRs and GF's have been.
That's because CW's control was nerfed not damage. If CW's damage was nerfed but control buffed, people wouldn't stack more CWs
Even so, if my suggestion about AOE resistant mobs was implemented, there wouldn't be a need to nerf anyone. The problem lies far more in the dungeon encounters than class balance. Increasing control and decreasing damage still wouldn't provide an incentive to use a GF. They'd just stack more GWFs.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
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theheroshieldMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 24Arc User
edited February 2014
Exactly. You're only making the GWF more useful, but not increasing the worth of GFs. The class needs to become a use in battle, that's the key thing. TRs, HRs and GWFs hit harder, CWs control everything and DC's heal. What's the point of the GF? His threat mangament is sub-par when everything is CC'd to death. They need to give the GF a role again and that's in having him/her keep the attention of CC-immune mobs or keeping the mobs at bay while the spells are on extended cool-down. Or if the baddies are so strong activating a spell is just not enough when he's got all the squishy classes...well, squished.
for me GF problems are: o not enough impact in party performance - tanks dont do much damage in most games, but it is compensated by the fact that they are the most important persons in a party, doesnt matter how good the dps is or healer is if tank sucks then you will fail(unless you outgear the challenge), and as long as tank is good enough he can pull party through about anything, in this game that role falls to cw(along with top dps shared with gwf) in this game good gf is nice to have but in a same way than its nice to have tr for his 5% crit bonus
o getting ccd by mobs all the time(yes you can block but trying to block when there are 1525123 mobs hitting you destroys shield instantly and 0.852 sec later you get hit by next cc) you can use whatever_that_daily_was_called but the animation is slow. every melee class needs cc immunity on an instant cast(even unstoppable cast fks up often) trash in this game has way too much cc in this game
o %@&* slow and stupid animations that are clunky as hell. the class needs to feel fluid instead of like falling down the stairs face first with bricks falling on your rear end. i tried playing gf recently, had forgotten how bad it is, it made me want to bash my face against the wall(might be more pleasant than trying to play with gf animations) every skill takes ages to cast(being tank you get ccd 15 times and killed 3 times during casting about anything that isnt lunge)
o not enough damage - this game isnt made to need tanks anyway, at least give gf dmg to have fun
Paladin Master Race
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nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
Part of it would be to increase the utility of GF's guard, such as reducing the maximum amount of Guard drained each time a hit is blocked. Part of this could be applied to the Feature Shield Talent, that noone really uses at present.
Additionally reducing the effect of Defense/Deflect per point, but make Diminishing Returns reduce it a lot less. That would make GFs become considerably more tanky (and everyone else less), which means getting a ton of threat won't get you killed.
It would also create a considerable difference in durability between Conqueror and Tactician/Protector GFs, whereby Conquerors would still be great at damaging, but really be made of paper, while tanky GF builds could actually tank for some amount of time and survive aggro grabbing/controlling enemies that CWs cannot.
One of the problems with artifacts and the new active bonuses is that everyone caps out easily on defense/lifesteal, leading to GF having no competitive edge in damage reduction and DCs becoming less useless as people have sufficient self-sustain.
Just got to lvl 59 witth my gf. Been enjoying it but there are significant problems with powers imo. So far i've used e. threat and other low-lvl powers for the whole game.
Don't think the swordmaster path is anything useful and contributes anything to the gameplay. Don't know about vanguard path but it should be no great either.
It feels like gf progression stops at like lvl 30s while other classes get better at everything.
A related note about guard, they need to fix all of the powers that will daze or prone you through guard and/or Villain's Menace. My GF had zero problems with anything running the quests in Sharandar, except for Feydark Breach and Arcane Reservoir. Cue a lot of swearing as I repeatedly get dazed by the Totemist bosses. Doing the Hotenow quests while leveling up was worse on my GF than any other class because of getting thrown into the air and then proned by Flamespikers.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
for me GF problems are: o not enough impact in party performance - tanks dont do much damage in most games, but it is compensated by the fact that they are the most important persons in a party, doesnt matter how good the dps is or healer is if tank sucks then you will fail(unless you outgear the challenge), and as long as tank is good enough he can pull party through about anything, in this game that role falls to cw(along with top dps shared with gwf) in this game good gf is nice to have but in a same way than its nice to have tr for his 5% crit bonus
o getting ccd by mobs all the time(yes you can block but trying to block when there are 1525123 mobs hitting you destroys shield instantly and 0.852 sec later you get hit by next cc) you can use whatever_that_daily_was_called but the animation is slow. every melee class needs cc immunity on an instant cast(even unstoppable cast fks up often) trash in this game has way too much cc in this game
o %@&* slow and stupid animations that are clunky as hell. the class needs to feel fluid instead of like falling down the stairs face first with bricks falling on your rear end. i tried playing gf recently, had forgotten how bad it is, it made me want to bash my face against the wall(might be more pleasant than trying to play with gf animations) every skill takes ages to cast(being tank you get ccd 15 times and killed 3 times during casting about anything that isnt lunge)
o not enough damage - this game isnt made to need tanks anyway, at least give gf dmg to have fun
You make a good point on the speed of the animation. To bring up that shield takes ages. I think wars are won in less time in these dungeons than it takes to bring up that **** shield.
Aside from the animations, adding a team buff like tr's critical chance would be pretty sweet. If a gf could increase the team's defense or power depending on his paragon path, at least 1 gf would be crucial for both pve AND pvp parties.
Also most powers need to be revamped. Heck, there are even ZERO useful at-wills.
Give us some bleeds other then Knee Breaker, give the GF something with flavor other then block , bash, cleave, place another skill here over and over...
GF really need a way to be more versatile as they are not needed to Tank!
Hell give me the option to use 2 swords, if tanking is not an option I'll just dps...
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Hi guys, I posted here earlier about how I felt as a fresh lvl 60 GF. I have been reading these comments and I agree with one approach of them. If you would make the Tank some kind of buffing machine, wouldn't that hurt a lot DC class and make it somewhat obsolete then, or any other buffing class.
I liked the idea of having really hard hitting bosses, making damage unavoidable and massive improvements on threat generation a lot, I can see it working, not sure if the developers can do it though. So I think the key is in the encounter design and improving threat mechanics.
If you would make the Tank some kind of buffing machine, wouldn't that hurt a lot DC class and make it somewhat obsolete then, or any other buffing class.
Nope. People are gonna take DCs anyway, and if the buffs/debuffs stack with DC buffs/debuffs (which they currently do for what buffs the GF has) then there's no conflict of interest.
Nope. People are gonna take DCs anyway, and if the buffs/debuffs stack with DC buffs/debuffs (which they currently do for what buffs the GF has) then there's no conflict of interest.
Ok, that sounds good, it would fix things, but... The GF still would feel more or less useless or not the way people think they should function. I'm not sure if most people would want to play a class, which is there to more or less press one button occationally, while they really want to be in the front lines getting bashed in the head and unleashing fierce battle cries and protecting the party.
I've found I can still grab enough attention to let the rest of the party maintain combat advantage 80-90% of the time. Plus into the fray lets everyone shift around and fire off dailies often enough to make you feel like you're useful.
Pointless in higher gear parties, but it's something.
Comments
That there is part of the solution: Recognition
A class can buff/debuff their party so much that the entire party seems like a superstar, but no one cares because it isn't recognized nor valued.
All people see are the end charts and ACT results, from which there is no category for 1st place buffer/debuffer... Just 1st place loser, which is where MOST (not all) GF's & DC's usually end up (and sometimes TRs). Sure, we get "most damage taken", but who cares about that? There needs to be some kind of MVP stat or team support stat or something that all can potentially win, which would help with recognition.
If they plan to invoke some kind of ELO system, I feel they should make room in the charts for such things so we can get some much needed recognition.
I'm not anywhere near level 60, but I can already see some pretty glaring issues that would not only impact the usefulness of the GF class, but also in my opinion hurts the game overall.
1.) Too much emphasis on AoE in dungeons, at least so far (though I've read it is a persistent problem). This is a problem because it makes aggro management difficult right off the bat, because people are encouraged to just go balls to the wall and spam AoE. This wouldn't be a problem necessarily, but the GF has some of the worst aggro generation capability of any tank class I've ever played in an mmo. Sure, the mobs in this game so far seem to die pretty quickly, without doing much damage (in addition to the flat out absurdly OP CC capabilities of CW's, more on that later), but it's psychologically damaging. Not only does it make me feel somewhat ill-equipped to perform my duties as a tank, it seems to make other players disregard the value of a tank. I won't even get into the brain dead easy bosses that are padded by waves of adds, which is every boss so far.
2.) GF damage is pathetic, even for a tank. This exacerbates aggro issues, and I imagine also further ingrains in peoples minds that if it can be CCed and burned, why ever take a GF?
3.) Lower than optimal aggro production and damage are just minor annoyances compared to this issue: CC in this game is absolutely out of control. Why use a tank when you can just lock everything down with CC and nuke the hell out of it? I could write a book about all the reasons this sucks and is bad game design, but I think its pretty self-evident to be honest. This problem also makes pvp in this game a joke, when it could otherwise be pretty damned fun. I played WoW for 7 years, and even mace spec Rogues and Stormherald, mace spec Arms Warriors, combined with a Frost Mage, during the Burning Crusade expansion, were an absolute cakewalk joke compared to how laugh out loud stupid CC is in this games pvp.
The solutions seem simple to me.
1.) Buff GF aggro generation capability. Not by a huge amount, but I feel a buff is in order.
2.) Buff GF damage. Perhaps not at a base level or all around, but at LEAST the Swordmaster path.
3.) There either needs to be retroactive changes, or at the very least in the future, boss encounter design needs to change. This 2 trick pony, moron boss with tidal waves of adds trend in this game is terrible. Less focus on adds, and more focus on a single target that is very dangerous and needs to be handled carefully would not only make the dungeons more compelling, challenging, and fun, it would also increase the value of a tank.
4.) Most importantly, CC in this game needs to be brought to heel badly. More enemies need to be made immune to CC, and there needs to be a diminishing returns system put into place (especially for pvp). IF there is a DR system in this game, and I'm not aware of it, then it needs to be beefed up. Some abilities need to be on the same DR table, or the immunity or duration reduction when the threshold is reached needs to be increased by a decent margin. This is preferable to nerfing the hell out of the CW class.
I could be wrong, as I am speaking from a position of inexperience with this game, and I know its all rather simply stated, but I believe the above changes would for sure improve the QOL and allure of the GF class, while also going a long ways towards fixing pvp.
You may as well name your proposed solution "Nail in the coffin".
The very last thing this game needs is higher HP on mobs so that control becomes even more neccesary. Such a solution will simply increase the demand of CWs, and make tanking even less desirable. No, absolutely no. What we need are more directed attacks (as opposed to the current AOE spam that makes tanking almost irrelevant), and CC resistance on both mobs and players.
Amen to that, but I'd also say that the whole "CC is out of control" is true for many mobs as well. I have stayed chain-proned for well over 10 seconds, and well, suffice to say that is not fun. And yes, it is probably my fault for getting proned the 1st time, but come on, there has to be a limit to the whole feast.
Also, because the mobs spam so much CC, the only practical solution is...to fight fire with fire!!! stun them into oblivion before they do the same to you. Really, no fun,
I like to recruit 4 high dps players when i conect to play (less and less everyday) and just stomp throught VT in 15 minutes, or through CN in 35 whithout DC, and the game is just awesome, mobs melting like is nothing, packs and packs of them, but i really doubt Devs thought the game should be this way, endgame now is just pointless, futile, at least for the portion of us who have uber endgear (rank9-10s in all slots, 3 epic-legendary artifacts, all boons, all t2.5 weaponry) and almost a year of experience, doesnt matter if you are a gf, a dc, a gwf, cw, tr, hr, doesnt matter, the game is becoming boring because there is no challenge on it, and when you pug random pug group and they are AWFUL you just dont have fun, you suffer, and get on your nerves.
Game needs a serious endgame overhaul, i dont know how, i will write an extensive post later to offer a few ideas, but as it is now, GFs are not needed on uber high end game, but neither are any other class other than CWs and GWFs.
I feel the GF is a wasted class, I am considering leaving the toon and leveling something else as his damage is pathetically low I have to stop DPS to block whereas other classes just have to DPS and have defensives that are fluid to their DPSing.
GF need some tweaking, as We are not the best at our jobs, we cannot fulfill another classes role, and we are not really needed!
Hell a bunch of man at arms companions can do what we do, pretty pathetic.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
You, as a matter of fact, do. Not holding it againts you, but keep that in mind.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
1) Lack of aggro management
2) Lack of specialization
When I go into a group I find I'm not getting nearly enough aggro. People never seem to complain, and if anything I've had compliments, but based on how the game is designed there should be either the biggest add on me or almost every other smaller add. I normally only have about half the adds on me and have to repeatedily tab and ET to get the rest of them on me. And between a quickly shredded shield and low DPS they quickly lose their interest. Aggro should not disappear the moment another player ticks a slighter higher DPS, especially not if the add suffers lack of combat advantage and provokes an attack opportunity from me (although the latter has made me LOL more than once).
Second, the GF needs to regain their ability to tank the big baddies. TRs should not tank them, and certainly not the CW. It's okay for the GWF to do so, but it should leave the risk of the big baddie running off on them to squish the TR and CW. Ideally, imo, a battle should involve the CW rounding up the little mobs for the GWF to hack to bites, the GF and the TR trashing the big CC-immune baddie while the DC keeps everyone alive. As for the HR he could work the room, picking off all the mobile adds the GWF doesn't have time to take down (because he's busy keeping the other adds from swarming the CW on cool-down) and the CW can't reach.
It can work, but the system (mostly the adds) need a change to balance the team.
That's because CW's control was nerfed not damage. If CW's damage was nerfed but control buffed, people wouldn't stack more CWs
o not enough impact in party performance - tanks dont do much damage in most games, but it is compensated by the fact that they are the most important persons in a party, doesnt matter how good the dps is or healer is if tank sucks then you will fail(unless you outgear the challenge), and as long as tank is good enough he can pull party through about anything, in this game that role falls to cw(along with top dps shared with gwf) in this game good gf is nice to have but in a same way than its nice to have tr for his 5% crit bonus
o getting ccd by mobs all the time(yes you can block but trying to block when there are 1525123 mobs hitting you destroys shield instantly and 0.852 sec later you get hit by next cc) you can use whatever_that_daily_was_called but the animation is slow. every melee class needs cc immunity on an instant cast(even unstoppable cast fks up often) trash in this game has way too much cc in this game
o %@&* slow and stupid animations that are clunky as hell. the class needs to feel fluid instead of like falling down the stairs face first with bricks falling on your rear end. i tried playing gf recently, had forgotten how bad it is, it made me want to bash my face against the wall(might be more pleasant than trying to play with gf animations) every skill takes ages to cast(being tank you get ccd 15 times and killed 3 times during casting about anything that isnt lunge)
o not enough damage - this game isnt made to need tanks anyway, at least give gf dmg to have fun
Additionally reducing the effect of Defense/Deflect per point, but make Diminishing Returns reduce it a lot less. That would make GFs become considerably more tanky (and everyone else less), which means getting a ton of threat won't get you killed.
It would also create a considerable difference in durability between Conqueror and Tactician/Protector GFs, whereby Conquerors would still be great at damaging, but really be made of paper, while tanky GF builds could actually tank for some amount of time and survive aggro grabbing/controlling enemies that CWs cannot.
One of the problems with artifacts and the new active bonuses is that everyone caps out easily on defense/lifesteal, leading to GF having no competitive edge in damage reduction and DCs becoming less useless as people have sufficient self-sustain.
Don't think the swordmaster path is anything useful and contributes anything to the gameplay. Don't know about vanguard path but it should be no great either.
It feels like gf progression stops at like lvl 30s while other classes get better at everything.
You make a good point on the speed of the animation. To bring up that shield takes ages. I think wars are won in less time in these dungeons than it takes to bring up that **** shield.
Also most powers need to be revamped. Heck, there are even ZERO useful at-wills.
GF really need a way to be more versatile as they are not needed to Tank!
Hell give me the option to use 2 swords, if tanking is not an option I'll just dps...
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I liked the idea of having really hard hitting bosses, making damage unavoidable and massive improvements on threat generation a lot, I can see it working, not sure if the developers can do it though. So I think the key is in the encounter design and improving threat mechanics.
Nope. People are gonna take DCs anyway, and if the buffs/debuffs stack with DC buffs/debuffs (which they currently do for what buffs the GF has) then there's no conflict of interest.
Ok, that sounds good, it would fix things, but... The GF still would feel more or less useless or not the way people think they should function. I'm not sure if most people would want to play a class, which is there to more or less press one button occationally, while they really want to be in the front lines getting bashed in the head and unleashing fierce battle cries and protecting the party.
Pointless in higher gear parties, but it's something.