Sorry, but this argument you bring is a proof that GF has no usefulness in good PvE.
The build that Todesfaelle make is a selfish survive build. It doesn't give any usefulness to a good team. No it hurt the entire team because of the slot waste. The build fill the gap between horrible teams and average teams to survive the dungeon. It doesn't make it smoother or easier for normal not stupid teams. I run T2 GG Dungeon with 3 GWFs + DC + someone else(not GF) and it was so much better, because we bomb the mobs + the boss in the same area in much lesser time as i ever have with any GF in the team. GF is only a useful slot for bad/average teams. Not more. The entire game mechanic make this truth.
Ouch, that hurts! Selfish survive build. Such hate.
Nonetheless, regarding the topic, I completely agree. GF's need a significant buff to better match the preference of the public. Either that, or they should address the real problem which is CC. They should start implementing CC diminishing returns for both PVE and PVP, or just give mobs some resistance to CC which scales based on the tier of the mob. CC is what's destroying both PVP and PVE in my opinion. The GF does not have a problem per se. It's merely the most affected by the real problem which is the lack of an imposed CC resistance mechanic in the game, which is giving the CW's an edge in dungeons, making things much more easier by real control as compared to bringing a tank with a more passive version of control (aggro) to divert their attention.
In PVP, there is no real fighting happening when your enemies just prevent you from moving and/or using your skills until you get 5-manned to death because your allies are somewhere not on the node, too busy trying to stay alive because they're afraid of doing their jobs in PVP. The beauty of PUG groups where you can't even trust your own teammates, where someone with a god mode has to try and carry in a group of players who aren't even trying to compete. While the most recent PVP patch for the preview is attempting to fix this, it'll bring more problems than fixes because the devs are trying to do unnecessary fixes like reducing the overall potency of DPS. That is totally uncalled for. All they needed to do was fix the overuse of CC and Regen, and PVP is practically good to go.
The implementation of CC DR will not make CW's weaker at all. They still have their DPS and Control. They just won't be able to survive the mobs that resisted their CC because they didn't bring a tank with them, which is how the game should be working.
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Again I agree with this, the gf isn't useless unless yes you are trying to run through a dungeon but wheres the fun in running? Sure, theres a sense of accomplishment with running it in 10 minutes or whatever; but like shadow said into the fray will increase speed and not many encounters besides a mastery slotted steal time can do this.
And KV is amazing as I've said in many threads no GWF will be able to do this ever probably, tell you what though if they could that would be some ridiculous stuff.
And Todesfaelle's build is still good even with a good team I can assure you of that and how is taking half the teams damage and reflecting it back selfish?. Is it selfish? It lets KV build even more aggro AND make you invincible via steel defense and SoS whilst doing it. GWF in and of itself is way more selfish than that.
But really trying to convince other people of some things is like trying to convert someone to another religion it doesn't work unless...
A. They are actively interested in what you have to say.
OR
B. They love you and are willing to change.
Good teams don't take much damage. An 8:1 ratio of damage out to damage received in a high level group isn't uncommon.
Sure, But I still don't get how you can call it selfish; if anything its more self-less than any other class besides the DC. Plus my team and I beat spellplague with this build with no cleric at all because all the adds were too busy attacking me, not hurting me, and being hit back which made them attack me even more which is what the GF is supposed to be for no?
And I can agree that mobs should have at least some resistance to cc its pretty ridiculous that it ALWAYS works on them. And I have 2 CW's and love them as much as my GF so it's not hate.
And besides when theres 100 adds regardless of how "good" the team is someone is bound to be hit and when they are I will soften the blow and then hit them back.
Into the fray also helps kiting, so I still don't get it and I guess I never will oh well.:)
Good teams don't take much damage. An 8:1 ratio of damage out to damage received in a high level group isn't uncommon.
Ok, and? They still get hit. The GF can still absorb it. Heck, the GF has enforced threat, with all the threat boosts if you follow the Iron Maiden build, as such, they can draw that bit that would hit to them anyways, AND mark them which is a DPS increase for everyone else.
Like I said, the GF isn't useless. They just aren't speed kings. We all agree they need help. I simply am pointing out that they are still viable, if you're not trying for 15 CN runs within a 1 hour DD block.
... and if you ARE trying for 15 CN runs, then good luck?
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited January 2014
masterjewstar - that sounds like a terrible karrundax. If i was you i would have ignored the GF and left party. I don't waste time with such nonsense.
Side note - you can no longer skip in karrundax, so this GF obviously didn't know anything ^^.
Damage ratio.. on a recent clear of CN when i was on my GF (not including draco) we did 64.2 million in damage and we took 4.15 million damage, so that is is better than 15:1 damage to damage taken ratio.
This is a big reason why DC's need to buff/debuff more, but the point is, good teams don't take much damage
Agreed that was a rough run only because of the gf we were with. But I stuck with it cause the tr and the other gwf in group was in my guild and even if they weren't I still wouldn't abandon them unless the main boss was a complete no-go because I actually care about winning as a team not just my own personal dps or speed through dungeons. The dragon is a chump with chump adds probably the easiest boss of the t2s just my opinion just the getting there is a pain.
I never really had that much trouble with clearing CN either, honestly just the dragon's adds are the problem there.
When fighting bosses with my GF I just focus adds unless I am absolutely needed on boss because most problems with most boss fights only stem from the adds themselves and from people not paying attention or having to pay too much attention to the adds chasing them around to pay attention to splats; having me there holding them away from the party means more dps on the boss and less running around for them.
This is why GF's aren't as useless as everyone is saying; imo maybe they're just doing it wrong lol.
This is beside what DPS the tank can do with the stuff. Can also gather the mobs into one location since they would all be hit by the GF. No.. no, the GF brings plenty for the team. The problem that is being discussed here is speed and efficiency. Those who play the speed game of farm as much as possible say the GF is too slow.
Does the GF need help? Absolutely. It'd be great if something could be done for it.
Is it useless now? No. However it hinders those who want speed runs, so is seen as useless.
+1
/10chars
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
I will explain why GF is totaly worthless in endgame.
I find that 95% of groups in the endgame are going for the game "glitches"(bug) to take down bosses. This means ranged groups with healers. This also means GF's are totaly useless taking down bosses in this way (range), and normally get booted from the groups. To take down bosses in the normal way is so hard (not using game glitches to get boss) they usualy have not a chance. In boss fights, hard hitting adds swarm out, and GF's have little or none chance to keep the swarm under aggro. Even if he can, he dies fast since the mob eats he's guard very very fast. Even with full Guard build.
For me it seems like the lack of tank function is making players looking for glitches to take down bosses.
I feel clearly the GF need a overhaul. Give us the tanks ability. Now the GWF is tanking better then GF (mybe a overstatement) but not far from the truth.............
A glitch is a short-lived fault in a system. It is often used to describe a transient fault that corrects itself, and is therefore difficult to troubleshoot. The term is particularly common in the computing and electronics industries, and in circuit bending, as well as among players of video games, although it is applied to all types of systems including human organizations and nature.
The term derives from the German glitschig, meaning 'slippery', possibly entering English through the Yiddish term glitsh.
First No NO NO does a GWF ever tank better than a GF there threat is HAMSTER. But yes the only viable GF build is to DPS on a level equal to a GWF and we can out single target DPS them and By far out threat them. a Good GF makes a GWF useless in a group. Gf need to stack crit and armor pen on there Ioun stone to be viable. It is sad but it works. I really wish they would buff defensive build GF's so they could be useful in groups but right now It is all damage or you suck.
Ouch, that hurts! Selfish survive build. Such hate.
Nonetheless, regarding the topic, I completely agree. GF's need a significant buff to better match the preference of the public. Either that, or they should address the real problem which is CC. They should start implementing CC diminishing returns for both PVE and PVP, or just give mobs some resistance to CC which scales based on the tier of the mob. CC is what's destroying both PVP and PVE in my opinion. The GF does not have a problem per se. It's merely the most affected by the real problem which is the lack of an imposed CC resistance mechanic in the game, which is giving the CW's an edge in dungeons, making things much more easier by real control as compared to bringing a tank with a more passive version of control (aggro) to divert their attention.
In PVP, there is no real fighting happening when your enemies just prevent you from moving and/or using your skills until you get 5-manned to death because your allies are somewhere not on the node, too busy trying to stay alive because they're afraid of doing their jobs in PVP. The beauty of PUG groups where you can't even trust your own teammates, where someone with a god mode has to try and carry in a group of players who aren't even trying to compete. While the most recent PVP patch for the preview is attempting to fix this, it'll bring more problems than fixes because the devs are trying to do unnecessary fixes like reducing the overall potency of DPS. That is totally uncalled for. All they needed to do was fix the overuse of CC and Regen, and PVP is practically good to go.
The implementation of CC DR will not make CW's weaker at all. They still have their DPS and Control. They just won't be able to survive the mobs that resisted their CC because they didn't bring a tank with them, which is how the game should be working.
Hate? Hmm... WHAT?! Where i stated, that i hate/offended you/other? o.O Maybe you use the selfish word false... okay self-centered survive build is maybe more accurate. The problem is not the GF class itself in 97% of the problem. It's the design of the entire PVE game, that produce our problem.
First No NO NO does a GWF ever tank better than a GF there threat is HAMSTER. But yes the only viable GF build is to DPS on a level equal to a GWF and we can out single target DPS them and By far out threat them. a Good GF makes a GWF useless in a group. Gf need to stack crit and armor pen on there Ioun stone to be viable. It is sad but it works. I really wish they would buff defensive build GF's so they could be useful in groups but right now It is all damage or you suck.
Aggro... You never use Aggro as DDs and Controllers. If the entire Mobgroup got bombed or even better complete controlled, where you need Control through Aggro? Aggro control is for poor DPsler and Controller good.
As Protector GF i can outthreat a DPS Con GF at the same target. So THREAT is not my problem. The problem is as stated you don't need threat control because of the poor design of mobs. Mean CC > DPS >> Aggro Control.
Hate? Hmm... WHAT?! Where i stated, that i hate/offended you/other? o.O Maybe you use the selfish word false... okay self-centered survive build is maybe more accurate. The problem is not the GF class itself in 97% of the problem. It's the design of the entire PVE game, that produce our problem.
The 'hate' which was said mostly in jest with the smilie next to it, was about you calling it a selfish build. Or self-centered, or anything like that.. It survives because it's defensive, however, the focus of the iron maiden is to buff the team, take damage for them and aggro everything that hits the team so they're all focused on the GF, that can take the beating and continue the feedback loop.
As we all agree, the PVE setup is what makes it so that speed runs don't bring GF. They aren't fast. They're valid, they could use some love, but they still work right now.
Hate? Hmm... WHAT?! Where i stated, that i hate/offended you/other? o.O Maybe you use the selfish word false... okay self-centered survive build is maybe more accurate. The problem is not the GF class itself in 97% of the problem. It's the design of the entire PVE game, that produce our problem.
Aggro... You never use Aggro as DDs and Controllers. If the entire Mobgroup got bombed or even better complete controlled, where you need Control through Aggro? Aggro control is for poor DPsler and Controller good.
As Protector GF i can outthreat a DPS Con GF at the same target. So THREAT is not my problem. The problem is as stated you don't need threat control because of the poor design of mobs. Mean CC > DPS >> Aggro Control.
Edit: Have anyone done Tos with this build?
Yes I have easily except I was with a pug who were exploiting it(not my choice btw) so at boss I sat there and did nothing because I couldn't follow them because GF doesn't have a dodge that moves.
I didn't have another chance to try it legit since I started leveling a nature ranger to test it out.
Yeah, I knew you didn't mean to insult, Ladysylvia. Was just pushing some light humor since things are so tense in here. And I sort of understand what you are saying. The Iron Maiden is indeed very selfish because I am hogging all the mobs and the boss to myself, and not giving any to the party. They're all mine. ♥ But most likely not in a CW speed run group.
And I think pretty much all the points have been made in this discussion. The GF is worthless for high end 3-CW speed runs, that I'm pretty sure we can all agree on. There's no competing with the current high CC/DPS meta for dungeons. It completely negates the need for a tank, because what exactly is there to tank when the mobs are dead.
Hi, I recently started playing this game and leveled up a GF and loving every moment of end game so far. I'm around 9k GS and I started looking at threads for GF end game stuff and came upon this thread. Comments posted here made me very sad and made me wonder if I should invest my time on this GF or roll something else instead.
Another thing which caught my eye is, that maybe they should nerf CW, because it seems like at the highest GS levels CW make all other classes obsolete, not just the GF. All i hear here is stack CW's etc...maybe that is where the problem lies in.
Also this might be a good spot to ask also has there been rumours they are doing something about this situation.
Hi, I recently started playing this game and leveled up a GF and loving every moment of end game so far. I'm around 9k GS and I started looking at threads for GF end game stuff and came upon this thread. Comments posted here made me very sad and made me wonder if I should invest my time on this GF or roll something else instead.
Another thing which caught my eye is, that maybe they should nerf CW, because it seems like at the highest GS levels CW make all other classes obsolete, not just the GF. All i hear here is stack CW's etc...maybe that is where the problem lies in.
Also this might be a good spot to ask also has there been rumours they are doing something about this situation.
No, I wouldn't just turn my back on the GF because the high-end power-gamers do not need a GF. I enjoy playing with my GF and won't stop even though we're considered redundant. I still get into T2s and am still farming all 3 T2 armour sets. If you enjoy the GF then keep playing with it.
If you are unsure, then maybe don't use real world money to buy things, such as a Stone from the Zen store.
What I would recommend is having two sets of gear though, one that improves your ability to deal damage and then one that makes you nearly unkillable. My build is a DPS-hybrid that I just make tankier through rings/belt/necklace when it comes time to run around like an idiot with adds in tow.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
Yeah, I knew you didn't mean to insult, Ladysylvia. Was just pushing some light humor since things are so tense in here. And I sort of understand what you are saying. The Iron Maiden is indeed very selfish because I am hogging all the mobs and the boss to myself, and not giving any to the party. They're all mine. ♥ But most likely not in a CW speed run group.
And I think pretty much all the points have been made in this discussion. The GF is worthless for high end 3-CW speed runs, that I'm pretty sure we can all agree on. There's no competing with the current high CC/DPS meta for dungeons. It completely negates the need for a tank, because what exactly is there to tank when the mobs are dead.
I'm still wondering though whether the GF could provide more buffing and therefore outperform a GWF. Given various bugged feats from the GWF it's unlikely, but the numbers themselves look intriguing, because a GF basically can add another HV to the party.
GWF offers is Student of the Sword, Mark and Battle Fury, which should be ~16% (?) , but is actually higher due to a bug. A Tactitian GF can add up to 32% (about 80% uptime) on AoE and 54% on bosses (100% guaranteed uptime) before any set boni. Valiant adds another 7-8% and some say Knight Captain's even more.
So can 3 CW +20% damage and the GF itself outshine a GWF? I think it's at least a possibility.
I'm still wondering though whether the GF could provide more buffing and therefore outperform a GWF. Given various bugged feats from the GWF it's unlikely, but the numbers themselves look intriguing, because a GF basically can add another HV to the party.
GWF offers is Student of the Sword, Mark and Battle Fury, which should be ~16% (?) , but is actually higher due to a bug. A Tactitian GF can add up to 32% (about 80% uptime) on AoE and 54% on bosses (100% guaranteed uptime) before any set boni. Valiant adds another 7-8% and some say Knight Captain's even more.
So can 3 CW +20% damage and the GF itself outshine a GWF? I think it's at least a possibility.
Tactician GF = 23% = Crushing Pin (10%) + Inspiring Leader (5%) + Mark (8%) = 23%.
GWF = 23% = Student of the Sword (15%) + Mark (8%) = 23%.
Student of the Sword has a 100% uptime compared to Crushing Pin + Inspiring Leader (especially since Crushing Pin is being removed from Lunging Strike). In addition, it stacks from multiple GWFs.
So, the real buffs a GF brings to a high end group farming content (whose only concern is therefore damage buffs) are from their sets and Into the Fray AP gain.
Yeah as I said. As long as the feats from the GWF are bugged the way there are, you probably can't bypass him. Student is bugged for two reasons: It stacks and it gives the GWF 15% mitigation where it should be 9%.
Don't forget the 9% form Plague Fire though as the GWFs are using Vorpals and that the uptime of Mark should be way higher for the GF. On the flip side: You can't maintain Crushing Pin and Inspiring Leader and Mark at the same time because you would need four Encounters (Fray, LS, FS, ET). And the GWF can add Battle Fury to its Arsenal, though the group buff with 1.6% including the uptime is very low.
With the set the GF still has a ~12% advantage in my book with bugged student and considering that the GWF uses both Mark abilities and Battle Fury. So it's probably closer to 15% so that the GF would have to come up for roughly 50% of the GWFs damage to be as productive.
Yeah as I said. As long as the feats from the GWF are bugged the way there are, you probably can't bypass him. Student is bugged for two reasons: It stacks and it gives the GWF 15% mitigation where it should be 9%.
Don't forget the 9% form Plague Fire though as the GWFs are using Vorpals and that the uptime of Mark should be way higher for the GF. On the flip side: You can't maintain Crushing Pin and Inspiring Leader and Mark at the same time because you would need four Encounters (Fray, LS, FS, ET). And the GWF can add Battle Fury to its Arsenal, though the group buff with 1.6% including the uptime is very low.
With the set the GF still has a ~12% advantage in my book with bugged student and considering that the GWF uses both Mark abilities and Battle Fury. So it's probably closer to 15% so that the GF would have to come up for roughly 50% of the GWFs damage to be as productive.
?
Man you have no plan about the feat or? It's WAI as it is due the feat points. You can't make one rule that rule for all. Every point give -1% DR to the target and you know what? You can spend 5 points in it! So it's right that it give -5% DR with every stack and not -3%.
Second you don't calculate that the GWF has an own higher base damage, that make them superior to any GF. Especially Non-Conquerer. Third they profit from Decreasing effectiveness numbers of the GF buffs. On top of this, the most CW debuff the target too, so the damage increase more and more. Your outpointed numbers are only eye-catchers, not more. GF is in the term of Damage useless. Defending it by any pseudo increasing numbers without showing the opposite side is truly hypocritical.
Last: How you come to the numbers '32% (about 80% uptime) on AoE and 54%'? No calculation make sense to achieve such numbers - either to high or to low. 28 make sense for normal. But then other factors from feats come in and turn the numbers in other as the stated.
Regardless of the GWF, the TR, CW and HR exist as slot filler too. And how you will compete to their damage?! Sorry, but i hate such shiny calculation to say something is maybe in line, without checking many other facts!
Man you have no plan about the feat or? It's WAI as it is due the feat points. You can't make one rule that rule for all. Every point give -1% DR to the target and you know what? You can spend 5 points in it! So it's right that it give -5% DR with every stack and not -3%.
This thread saddens me, as a new player I just started a GF and will be lvl 20 tonight! However reading this I was hoping to see GF become more versatile later on as the play style is so boring and same same same... I already feel pigeon holed into how I spec seeing classes with lesser gear and lower levels destroy me in DPS.
I think this class needs some radiance brought to its play style and maybe a DPS boost or a DPS path? I leveled a TR to 20 and hes by far more fun, yet I want to like the GF sadly I am not sure I can level him being so weak. I see a Ranger take down a 3 mobs in half the time I do while hes running to get another batch Im still blocking and stabbing over my shield for 150 damage!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Also, use block for high damage attacks as the reduction in guard meter is NOT proportional to damage dealt, but AP gain IS proportional to damage dealt
GF has issues, but it's only near useless to players who are min/maxing the gear grind to the extreme.
Just don't play with those people and you will be fine. My advice is find a good guild, preferably one that plays multiple games and has been around a while. I've spent a lot of time playing classes that are broken as ****, and had a great time doing it. Min/maxing the gear grind is not the best way to have fun, it is however the fastest path to burning out on a game.
I got my GF to 31 last night I love using a wizard companion to help blast down quest mobs, I like being a heavy armored class, however I find my damage really low! Even speccing into dps talents and using an epic weapon I hit for maybe 1000 tops...
Meanwhile my TR at level 18 hits for 1200! I think GF should be able to compete in dps with loss of tankiness damage reduction in order to open the classes diversity? Sometimes I enter a dungeon with another GF, so we are fighting for aggro and its pretty lame.
I'd much rather just let him tank and dps, but i am almost forced to create threat, unlike other classes that can change up their playstyle at will.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I got my GF to 31 last night I love using a wizard companion to help blast down quest mobs, I like being a heavy armored class, however I find my damage really low! Even speccing into dps talents and using an epic weapon I hit for maybe 1000 tops...
Meanwhile my TR at level 18 hits for 1200! I think GF should be able to compete in dps with loss of tankiness damage reduction in order to open the classes diversity? Sometimes I enter a dungeon with another GF, so we are fighting for aggro and its pretty lame.
I'd much rather just let him tank and dps, but i am almost forced to create threat, unlike other classes that can change up their playstyle at will.
If a tank could do similar damageas a single-target DPS class, then who would play anything else?
That having been said, having a choice of Paragon Path or Tree for GF which has much less tankiness but more DPS then currently would be a good idea as at present GFs are in the same spot GWFs were for most of the game.
So you agree, that the GF should have a path to do better DPS at a cost of damage mitigation! I've chosen every dps talent so far and my damage still is far less then my TR with blue weapons at lvl 18? How is a level 31 GF with all dps talents and an epic weapon with 2,000 better gear score doing less dps then a level 18 TR. Sad!
One thing I noticed is we cannot stat wise gain crit! We have to talent into it and its only 6% I think?
Dex should give us crit, if it does hovering didn't suggest so and I apologize bringing it up.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Hi, I recently started playing this game and leveled up a GF and loving every moment of end game so far. I'm around 9k GS and I started looking at threads for GF end game stuff and came upon this thread. Comments posted here made me very sad and made me wonder if I should invest my time on this GF or roll something else instead.
Another thing which caught my eye is, that maybe they should nerf CW, because it seems like at the highest GS levels CW make all other classes obsolete, not just the GF. All i hear here is stack CW's etc...maybe that is where the problem lies in.
Also this might be a good spot to ask also has there been rumours they are doing something about this situation.
Nerfing is not a solution and in many cases just creates other problems. After reading this thread it's pretty clear that significantly increasing the HP levels for mobs and boss's along with damage output would be the best solution. I believe this would stop the speed running and class discrimination.
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Nerfing is not a solution and in many cases just creates other problems. After reading this thread it's pretty clear that significantly increasing the HP levels for mobs and boss's along with damage output would be the best solution. I believe this would stop the speed running and class discrimination.
Wouldn't work at all, would only encourage even more CWs to maintain 100% control of mobs that now have longer lifespans. As long as CW remains #1 AOE dps class they will remain the most in demand and be stacked the most for efficiency. Any solution to the class inequity in PVE must address this issue first and foremost. Everything else is stalling tactics to maintain the status quo.
Since the required CW nerf will likely never happen other solutions for improving GFs should also include improving the players perception's regarding GFs.
I did a SP the other day on my gwf with a tactician GF wearing Knight Captain and buffed into the Fray (14,200-15,800 power depending on madness/ferocity procs). I ended the dungeon with 30mil damage dealt. Atleast 5 million of that damage was a direct result of his buffs. Those numbers would of been higher but I was solo on the last boss while he and cw were kiting/clearing adds via repel. I wouldn't mind at all if that dmg was moved from me to him on the paingiver chart.
Comments
Ouch, that hurts! Selfish survive build. Such hate.
Nonetheless, regarding the topic, I completely agree. GF's need a significant buff to better match the preference of the public. Either that, or they should address the real problem which is CC. They should start implementing CC diminishing returns for both PVE and PVP, or just give mobs some resistance to CC which scales based on the tier of the mob. CC is what's destroying both PVP and PVE in my opinion. The GF does not have a problem per se. It's merely the most affected by the real problem which is the lack of an imposed CC resistance mechanic in the game, which is giving the CW's an edge in dungeons, making things much more easier by real control as compared to bringing a tank with a more passive version of control (aggro) to divert their attention.
In PVP, there is no real fighting happening when your enemies just prevent you from moving and/or using your skills until you get 5-manned to death because your allies are somewhere not on the node, too busy trying to stay alive because they're afraid of doing their jobs in PVP. The beauty of PUG groups where you can't even trust your own teammates, where someone with a god mode has to try and carry in a group of players who aren't even trying to compete. While the most recent PVP patch for the preview is attempting to fix this, it'll bring more problems than fixes because the devs are trying to do unnecessary fixes like reducing the overall potency of DPS. That is totally uncalled for. All they needed to do was fix the overuse of CC and Regen, and PVP is practically good to go.
The implementation of CC DR will not make CW's weaker at all. They still have their DPS and Control. They just won't be able to survive the mobs that resisted their CC because they didn't bring a tank with them, which is how the game should be working.
Good teams don't take much damage. An 8:1 ratio of damage out to damage received in a high level group isn't uncommon.
And I can agree that mobs should have at least some resistance to cc its pretty ridiculous that it ALWAYS works on them. And I have 2 CW's and love them as much as my GF so it's not hate.
And besides when theres 100 adds regardless of how "good" the team is someone is bound to be hit and when they are I will soften the blow and then hit them back.
Into the fray also helps kiting, so I still don't get it and I guess I never will oh well.:)
Ok, and? They still get hit. The GF can still absorb it. Heck, the GF has enforced threat, with all the threat boosts if you follow the Iron Maiden build, as such, they can draw that bit that would hit to them anyways, AND mark them which is a DPS increase for everyone else.
Like I said, the GF isn't useless. They just aren't speed kings. We all agree they need help. I simply am pointing out that they are still viable, if you're not trying for 15 CN runs within a 1 hour DD block.
... and if you ARE trying for 15 CN runs, then good luck?
Side note - you can no longer skip in karrundax, so this GF obviously didn't know anything ^^.
Damage ratio.. on a recent clear of CN when i was on my GF (not including draco) we did 64.2 million in damage and we took 4.15 million damage, so that is is better than 15:1 damage to damage taken ratio.
This is a big reason why DC's need to buff/debuff more, but the point is, good teams don't take much damage
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
I never really had that much trouble with clearing CN either, honestly just the dragon's adds are the problem there.
When fighting bosses with my GF I just focus adds unless I am absolutely needed on boss because most problems with most boss fights only stem from the adds themselves and from people not paying attention or having to pay too much attention to the adds chasing them around to pay attention to splats; having me there holding them away from the party means more dps on the boss and less running around for them.
This is why GF's aren't as useless as everyone is saying; imo maybe they're just doing it wrong lol.
+1
/10chars
First No NO NO does a GWF ever tank better than a GF there threat is HAMSTER. But yes the only viable GF build is to DPS on a level equal to a GWF and we can out single target DPS them and By far out threat them. a Good GF makes a GWF useless in a group. Gf need to stack crit and armor pen on there Ioun stone to be viable. It is sad but it works. I really wish they would buff defensive build GF's so they could be useful in groups but right now It is all damage or you suck.
Hate? Hmm... WHAT?! Where i stated, that i hate/offended you/other? o.O Maybe you use the selfish word false... okay self-centered survive build is maybe more accurate. The problem is not the GF class itself in 97% of the problem. It's the design of the entire PVE game, that produce our problem.
Aggro... You never use Aggro as DDs and Controllers. If the entire Mobgroup got bombed or even better complete controlled, where you need Control through Aggro? Aggro control is for poor DPsler and Controller good.
As Protector GF i can outthreat a DPS Con GF at the same target. So THREAT is not my problem. The problem is as stated you don't need threat control because of the poor design of mobs. Mean CC > DPS >> Aggro Control.
Edit: Have anyone done Tos with this build?
The 'hate' which was said mostly in jest with the smilie next to it, was about you calling it a selfish build. Or self-centered, or anything like that.. It survives because it's defensive, however, the focus of the iron maiden is to buff the team, take damage for them and aggro everything that hits the team so they're all focused on the GF, that can take the beating and continue the feedback loop.
As we all agree, the PVE setup is what makes it so that speed runs don't bring GF. They aren't fast. They're valid, they could use some love, but they still work right now.
Yes I have easily except I was with a pug who were exploiting it(not my choice btw) so at boss I sat there and did nothing because I couldn't follow them because GF doesn't have a dodge that moves.
I didn't have another chance to try it legit since I started leveling a nature ranger to test it out.
And I think pretty much all the points have been made in this discussion. The GF is worthless for high end 3-CW speed runs, that I'm pretty sure we can all agree on. There's no competing with the current high CC/DPS meta for dungeons. It completely negates the need for a tank, because what exactly is there to tank when the mobs are dead.
Another thing which caught my eye is, that maybe they should nerf CW, because it seems like at the highest GS levels CW make all other classes obsolete, not just the GF. All i hear here is stack CW's etc...maybe that is where the problem lies in.
Also this might be a good spot to ask also has there been rumours they are doing something about this situation.
No, I wouldn't just turn my back on the GF because the high-end power-gamers do not need a GF. I enjoy playing with my GF and won't stop even though we're considered redundant. I still get into T2s and am still farming all 3 T2 armour sets. If you enjoy the GF then keep playing with it.
If you are unsure, then maybe don't use real world money to buy things, such as a Stone from the Zen store.
What I would recommend is having two sets of gear though, one that improves your ability to deal damage and then one that makes you nearly unkillable. My build is a DPS-hybrid that I just make tankier through rings/belt/necklace when it comes time to run around like an idiot with adds in tow.
I'm still wondering though whether the GF could provide more buffing and therefore outperform a GWF. Given various bugged feats from the GWF it's unlikely, but the numbers themselves look intriguing, because a GF basically can add another HV to the party.
GWF offers is Student of the Sword, Mark and Battle Fury, which should be ~16% (?) , but is actually higher due to a bug. A Tactitian GF can add up to 32% (about 80% uptime) on AoE and 54% on bosses (100% guaranteed uptime) before any set boni. Valiant adds another 7-8% and some say Knight Captain's even more.
So can 3 CW +20% damage and the GF itself outshine a GWF? I think it's at least a possibility.
Tactician GF = 23% = Crushing Pin (10%) + Inspiring Leader (5%) + Mark (8%) = 23%.
GWF = 23% = Student of the Sword (15%) + Mark (8%) = 23%.
Student of the Sword has a 100% uptime compared to Crushing Pin + Inspiring Leader (especially since Crushing Pin is being removed from Lunging Strike). In addition, it stacks from multiple GWFs.
So, the real buffs a GF brings to a high end group farming content (whose only concern is therefore damage buffs) are from their sets and Into the Fray AP gain.
Don't forget the 9% form Plague Fire though as the GWFs are using Vorpals and that the uptime of Mark should be way higher for the GF. On the flip side: You can't maintain Crushing Pin and Inspiring Leader and Mark at the same time because you would need four Encounters (Fray, LS, FS, ET). And the GWF can add Battle Fury to its Arsenal, though the group buff with 1.6% including the uptime is very low.
With the set the GF still has a ~12% advantage in my book with bugged student and considering that the GWF uses both Mark abilities and Battle Fury. So it's probably closer to 15% so that the GF would have to come up for roughly 50% of the GWFs damage to be as productive.
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Man you have no plan about the feat or? It's WAI as it is due the feat points. You can't make one rule that rule for all. Every point give -1% DR to the target and you know what? You can spend 5 points in it! So it's right that it give -5% DR with every stack and not -3%.
Second you don't calculate that the GWF has an own higher base damage, that make them superior to any GF. Especially Non-Conquerer. Third they profit from Decreasing effectiveness numbers of the GF buffs. On top of this, the most CW debuff the target too, so the damage increase more and more. Your outpointed numbers are only eye-catchers, not more. GF is in the term of Damage useless. Defending it by any pseudo increasing numbers without showing the opposite side is truly hypocritical.
Last: How you come to the numbers '32% (about 80% uptime) on AoE and 54%'? No calculation make sense to achieve such numbers - either to high or to low. 28 make sense for normal. But then other factors from feats come in and turn the numbers in other as the stated.
Regardless of the GWF, the TR, CW and HR exist as slot filler too. And how you will compete to their damage?! Sorry, but i hate such shiny calculation to say something is maybe in line, without checking many other facts!
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?591431-GWF-Student-of-the-Sword-granting-too-much-damage
And? Only a bugreport filled by guy. No Dev said it's bugged.
Castle Never :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9lDOmlsQB0
:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EPHgecQCuA
Valindra Tower:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Vg_KEU4pjk
Noted: GWF view ( run with guild)
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Mospeda 22k GS
I think this class needs some radiance brought to its play style and maybe a DPS boost or a DPS path? I leveled a TR to 20 and hes by far more fun, yet I want to like the GF sadly I am not sure I can level him being so weak. I see a Ranger take down a 3 mobs in half the time I do while hes running to get another batch Im still blocking and stabbing over my shield for 150 damage!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
seriously
use block like any other class uses dodge.
Also, use block for high damage attacks as the reduction in guard meter is NOT proportional to damage dealt, but AP gain IS proportional to damage dealt
Just don't play with those people and you will be fine. My advice is find a good guild, preferably one that plays multiple games and has been around a while. I've spent a lot of time playing classes that are broken as ****, and had a great time doing it. Min/maxing the gear grind is not the best way to have fun, it is however the fastest path to burning out on a game.
Meanwhile my TR at level 18 hits for 1200! I think GF should be able to compete in dps with loss of tankiness damage reduction in order to open the classes diversity? Sometimes I enter a dungeon with another GF, so we are fighting for aggro and its pretty lame.
I'd much rather just let him tank and dps, but i am almost forced to create threat, unlike other classes that can change up their playstyle at will.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
If a tank could do similar damageas a single-target DPS class, then who would play anything else?
That having been said, having a choice of Paragon Path or Tree for GF which has much less tankiness but more DPS then currently would be a good idea as at present GFs are in the same spot GWFs were for most of the game.
One thing I noticed is we cannot stat wise gain crit! We have to talent into it and its only 6% I think?
Dex should give us crit, if it does hovering didn't suggest so and I apologize bringing it up.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Wouldn't work at all, would only encourage even more CWs to maintain 100% control of mobs that now have longer lifespans. As long as CW remains #1 AOE dps class they will remain the most in demand and be stacked the most for efficiency. Any solution to the class inequity in PVE must address this issue first and foremost. Everything else is stalling tactics to maintain the status quo.
Since the required CW nerf will likely never happen other solutions for improving GFs should also include improving the players perception's regarding GFs.
I did a SP the other day on my gwf with a tactician GF wearing Knight Captain and buffed into the Fray (14,200-15,800 power depending on madness/ferocity procs). I ended the dungeon with 30mil damage dealt. Atleast 5 million of that damage was a direct result of his buffs. Those numbers would of been higher but I was solo on the last boss while he and cw were kiting/clearing adds via repel. I wouldn't mind at all if that dmg was moved from me to him on the paingiver chart.