Lots of examples of low end groups looking for a gf, which everyone is saying gfs have np in low end groups. Since from your post its clear you are a low end player let me explain how i know:
Party wants a gf to kite last boss in spellplague.
you think facetanking bosses is a big deal.
you think tos legit is a big deal (you also seem to think it requires a tank)
You then go on to say gfs have issues in cn/vt/mc while simultaneously saying gfs have np in the hardest t2s. Unless you consider those dungeons as t2.5 ones, in which case there are no hard t2s (edv perhaps). For the record of those 3 dungeons that you think are nearly impossible without 3 or more cw, only cn benefits from stacking 2+cw and thats only if you are lazy/want the extra security on draco. Mc 1-2 cw is fine and vt is easier with no cw.
You say I am a low end player because I talk about being asked to face-tank bosses? Please tell me, what is a TANK supposed to do? By definition we are intended to stand in the way of the biggest, hardest hitting object. I done that. You ridicule that. Makes no sense whatsoever.
Sure, I kited the last boss in Spellplague. We didn't wipe, killed him first time. Safe to say I done my job well, no? I also face-tanked bosses 1 & 2, but alas, a TANK, TANKING bosses is meaningless. Where is the problem in all of that? I done what was asked of me and we completed the run with one lag-induced hiccup. Point, which you missed out on, they ASKED for a GF. They didn't say ''LF CW but will take GF'', they ASKED for a GF. Who cares if I kited 1/3 bosses?
If you cannot out damage Syndryth's healing and if you don't stick to her like glue, that fight can be a pain. Also, popping Enforced Threat and keeping Blademasters (which hit like trains) on me is a bad thing? I can assure you, the CWs would rather have Blademasters hitting me and not them, as would the DC.
Yes, I consider CN/VT/MC in a different light to the other T2s. If you are struggling in T2s, bosses 3 & 4 in CN will slap you around and VT last boss will LOL at you.
I don't dispute that we can be brushed up. Our mechanics can be sped up, for example. Tabbing on the run, tweaking our guard mechanics and guard meter will help, Cleave could be faster, limits on aggro can be increased/removed, etc. Also, final boss fights can be tweaked to make as a viable option in the few fights where we may not be necessary. But to try and use an elitist paintbrush to outright rubbish our value is wrong. There are many, many players out there that can, will and do use GFs in their runs. And as the poster above me mentioned, there are GFs out there that can actually run with the best of the best.
Could things be better? Yes. Are we utterly useless? No.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You say I am a low end player because I talk about being asked to face-tank bosses? Please tell me, what is a TANK supposed to do? By definition we are intended to stand in the way of the biggest, hardest hitting object. I done that. You ridicule that. Makes no sense whatsoever.
you are a low end player because you believe that GF is the only class that can face tank bosses, or that face tanking is important or even necessary. In high end groups TRs, CWs, even HRs face tank bosses. Here's a hint. Mobs do not have at-will attacks. Summon an active companion and just watch him in combat, do it on a training dummy. That's what mobs do. most have 2 encounters that they use and then wait for cooldowns. In the interim they just stand there. bosses have a few more encounters but they function the same as pets. The only real "danger" from bosses is their aoes which everyone must avoid, meaning you can't stand in the way of the hardest hitting object. If you are taking damage from a bosses occasional directed attack whatever, but if you were not there, somebody (or on most bosses, nobody) would be taking that minor amount of damage instead.
Sure, I kited the last boss in Spellplague. We didn't wipe, killed him first time. Safe to say I done my job well, no? I also face-tanked bosses 1 & 2, but alas, a TANK, TANKING bosses is meaningless. Where is the problem in all of that? I done what was asked of me and we completed the run with one lag-induced hiccup. Point, which you missed out on, they ASKED for a GF. They didn't say ''LF CW but will take GF'', they ASKED for a GF. Who cares if I kited 1/3 bosses?
Kiting mobs on the last boss of SP is what low end groups do, thus low end groups request a GF. Once you have gear you simply pile everything on the boss and AOE it down in 2 seconds, including the boss, so that the platforms fall in 60s max and it's a 5 minute boss fight instead of 15-25. The only time a high end group kites is if they happen to have a GF because they contribute nothing else, and then you can just kite all the adds while the other 4 kill boss and then singu all the adds over at once when the platform falls. It's slower because you have only 4 on boss instead of 5 but it gives GF something to do. Usually though there is no gf in party unless it's someone's friend.
If you cannot out damage Syndryth's healing and if you don't stick to her like glue, that fight can be a pain. Also, popping Enforced Threat and keeping Blademasters (which hit like trains) on me is a bad thing? I can assure you, the CWs would rather have Blademasters hitting me and not them, as would the DC.
not being able to out damage syndryth's healing is a concern only for low end groups. Which yet again illustrates my point. When you are better geared blademasters are no longer a threat to cw/dc because a: they have nearly as much survivability as your gf and b: blademasters only live 3 seconds.
Yes, I consider CN/VT/MC in a different light to the other T2s. If you are struggling in T2s, bosses 3 & 4 in CN will slap you around and VT last boss will LOL at you.
First, 3rd boss in CN is the easiest so not sure where you are getting your information from. Second, again, only low end groups are struggling in T2s. In low end groups GFs are fine. You are missing the point.
I'm going to assume your conq and stack power, putting your 16k gs on the low end (16k was decent conq GF gs prior to mod 1). That or you're overgeared and roll with low end pugs to feel more useful. Either way you are talking low end groups, and saying GFs are fine. Nobody is arguing with you, in lowbie groups GFs are fine. beyond that they struggle towards uselessness. They need serious buffs.
From everything you've posted it is clear that you are a low end player. I don't mean that in a derogatory manner, it's simply the truth. You're talking about completing T2 dungeons with only 1 or 2 wipes and claiming victory here, saying you can run with the best of the best. Only 1 wipe in SP? I've 2-manned SP from start to finish with GWF and non-perma stealth TR, before they nerfed all the T2s and made them even easier than they already were, back when 2manning that dungeon was actually an accomplishment.
In terms of gear and skill I'm likely middle ground. I won't speed anything but I won't wipe out and won't stuff up.
You are an elitist. Your thinking is elitist. Your viewpoint is elitist. What you are saying encompasses the minority element, not the majority.
You two-manned SP from start to finish? Well done but do not even act like the general gaming population can do that. Again, you are using what the few can do to paint the many in a negative/inferior light.
I did not say only a GF can face tank a boss. What I did say was that my party ASKED for a tank, then they asked the tank to TANK after many said that people don't need/want tanks. They did not ask the deeps TR or HR to go and stand in red all fight long, they asked me to do it.
I do not PUG low end groups to feel good. How very condescending of you to even imply that. How would I even find a ''low end'' group? I am pugging to gear up, so no, I'm not farming FH because it is easy and I can baby-sit people through 2/3 fights. I check what dungeon I need to go to next for whatever gear I need and hit LFG.
3rd boss CN comment comes from actual personal experience in that dungeon. 1 and 2 are pieces of cake.
I also did not say we are perfectly fine. I concurred that the game as a whole is geared towards CWs (which marginalises not just the GF) and that we can use a fix up here and there and a few boss fights could be tweaked. However, I did say that we are not utterly useless. Your mindset is that if you are a GF, once you hit 60 and clear T1s it is GG. You are wrong. It is not perfect out there but it isn't GG. Running CN twice inside DD isn't the objective of this game. Killing a final boss in 30 seconds isn't the target. Completing CN at all is the objective. Killing the boss is the target. If it takes you an hour, two hours, three hours, it is still job done. If you can clear a dungeon in 20 - 30 minutes that is great. Well done. But rest assured, you are among the few that can do it.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
I never bring my GF to dungeons anymore. Even as a pretty decently geared(17k, R8s) GF I don't see the point unless friends/group specifically asks me to change over. My GWF and CW are much more useful(and my GWF tanks twice as well).
However, it's only really at higher gear levels that this problem arises. A GF is still very useful at the fresh 60 8-12k bracket, just kinda pointless once everyone gets to the point where they don't need anything tanking and stuff dies quicker than they can figure out who to attack.
In terms of gear and skill I'm likely middle ground. I won't speed anything but I won't wipe out and won't stuff up.
You are an elitist. Your thinking is elitist. Your viewpoint is elitist. What you are saying encompasses the minority element, not the majority.
You two-manned SP from start to finish? Well done but do not even act like the general gaming population can do that. Again, you are using what the few can do to paint the many in a negative/inferior light.
I did not say only a GF can face tank a boss. What I did say was that my party ASKED for a tank, then they asked the tank to TANK after many said that people don't need/want tanks. They did not ask the deeps TR or HR to go and stand in red all fight long, they asked me to do it.
I do not PUG low end groups to feel good. How very condescending of you to even imply that. How would I even find a ''low end'' group? I am pugging to gear up, so no, I'm not farming FH because it is easy and I can baby-sit people through 2/3 fights. I check what dungeon I need to go to next for whatever gear I need and hit LFG.
3rd boss CN comment comes from actual personal experience in that dungeon. 1 and 2 are pieces of cake.
I also did not say we are perfectly fine. I concurred that the game as a whole is geared towards CWs (which marginalises not just the GF) and that we can use a fix up here and there and a few boss fights could be tweaked. However, I did say that we are not utterly useless. Your mindset is that if you are a GF, once you hit 60 and clear T1s it is GG. You are wrong. It is not perfect out there but it isn't GG. Running CN twice inside DD isn't the objective of this game. Killing a final boss in 30 seconds isn't the target. Completing CN at all is the objective. Killing the boss is the target. If it takes you an hour, two hours, three hours, it is still job done. If you can clear a dungeon in 20 - 30 minutes that is great. Well done. But rest assured, you are among the few that can do it.
^ that.
that's what I've been saying every time in the post.
But I don't have a GF at 60 yet, so I don't count as much.
@chemboy:
can you say something about your (GF) build and playstyle? i got curious ...
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited January 2014
I'm a conqueror, but I don't over stack power. So I use the mc set on my jewlery and my stone, which means I get a lot of those starts gf don't normally get. B
In gear I have radiants in offense slots and I think dark in defense slots bc lifesteal is essential to do anything hard in PvE.
On my stone I stack armor pen, but I am close to cap so I will drop a little.
For my weapon enchant I just switched to a gpf
For cn clear in a good team I just go first, cast fray and enforces threat and swing though singularity. I am testing frontline vs anvil but I think frontline is slightly better.
For gear, if the team is very good I will wear timeless, but if we struggle I switch to regent.
For Draco I'll wear the fomorisn set and use fray, lunging and anvil. I just face tank him. When he knocks me back, I close with threatening rush, when he breaths I sidestep a little to the left,mans after breast or wing flap I dart in with lunging strike.
It is obviously essential that you block the hands!
Now if Draco gets to the edge of the inner rifle I turn him left, which it towards the Cws. This way the wizards are fighting under the wing, on the open side. Draco will take a few small steps towards you, so you just walk him around the circles, the Cws drop sing n his torso, and nuke everything. This way they never get the head or the tail and their job is much easier.
I think in that fight I have like 5500 power, 1000 crit 2000 arp 1000 recovery 5000 def 2500 deflect 2000 regen and 1000 lifesteal, but I'm not looking at it right now.
I think she's very balanced. For kiting battles it's the same bar as trash, just wear regent and use enhanced mark. It's actually easy.
So yea, gf is useful. But like all classes you have to balance your stats and play for the team
I'm a conqueror, but I don't over stack power. So I use the mc set on my jewlery and my stone, which means I get a lot of those starts gf don't normally get. B
In gear I have radiants in offense slots and I think dark in defense slots bc lifesteal is essential to do anything hard in PvE.
On my stone I stack armor pen, but I am close to cap so I will drop a little.
For my weapon enchant I just switched to a gpf
For cn clear in a good team I just go first, cast fray and enforces threat and swing though singularity. I am testing frontline vs anvil but I think frontline is slightly better.
For gear, if the team is very good I will wear timeless, but if we struggle I switch to regent.
For Draco I'll wear the fomorisn set and use fray, lunging and anvil. I just face tank him. When he knocks me back, I close with threatening rush, when he breaths I sidestep a little to the left,mans after breast or wing flap I dart in with lunging strike.
It is obviously essential that you block the hands!
Now if Draco gets to the edge of the inner rifle I turn him left, which it towards the Cws. This way the wizards are fighting under the wing, on the open side. Draco will take a few small steps towards you, so you just walk him around the circles, the Cws drop sing n his torso, and nuke everything. This way they never get the head or the tail and their job is much easier.
I think in that fight I have like 5500 power, 1000 crit 2000 arp 1000 recovery 5000 def 2500 deflect 2000 regen and 1000 lifesteal, but I'm not looking at it right now.
I think she's very balanced. For kiting battles it's the same bar as trash, just wear regent and use enhanced mark. It's actually easy.
So yea, gf is useful. But like all classes you have to balance your stats and play for the team
So. You tank draco. Good for you. Pray tell why a TR who has 2x more single target dps even if you slot kn challenge, 3x more without it, is not WAY better for it? A skilled TR has 0 issues tanking draco and burns him WAY faster. Same for GWF.
On the more constructive side - as you said your arpen is likely too high unless you rolled with less then 12 dex (with 12 dex, ending at 15 with campfire, you would need 1850 arpen for 24% pen).
Can you please exclude the comments from Con GF as 'viable' GFs? Where is tanking needed? Nowhere. This is the sentence which kill the sense of bringing a GF.
I made a run in T2 GG Dungeon. We have 2 Healer 1 Tr 1 HR and me as GWF. What happened? The Tr die fast because to stupid/lagkill near boss. THe HR got killed by mobs. So what was the tactic? DCs + me bombing mobs near the boss. We had several times that only 2 mobs exist next to the boss, which mean that we had 2 men the whole Endboss. Tank GF? Useless slot. He had dyed hard in the trying to overkill the enemies and to protect the 2 Healers. Overrunned by the more and more spawning mobs.
The more tankier your group is, the worser your run will be(easier in terms of surviving) especially in terms of time. FH is the best example that the pro GF fraction bring. But what mean that for us GF? Are we babysitters for the 20+ mobs with the limited combat mechanic and spawn mechanic? You simply don't need a tank there! What tactic GWF tank the mobs? Silly and plain not any tactic! All on boss and the DC build healer aggro against all mobs. So while all mobs aren't damaged by any other guy, the aggro is at the DC for his healing. This mean 0 GF but 4 dps + DC. The best example of needed GF show only the clueless of the GF itself. Im a protector GF and it's shocking to meet such moments, which i check, that other team compilations work the same way, if not better.
GF is sub-optimal in comparison to GWF. No i don't count con GF, because it show too how broken the balance is between all 3 trees.
The content is as it is now only DPS(or a bit CC) focused. Tanky compositions are less useful as dps in most cases. And that's the reason why the class GF is broken in term of PvE class balance.
I'd like to take this moment to point out the Iron Maiden spec.
The tank will be able to tank infinite number of adds, live, and kill em off for the team. The GF had to evolve to be able to step up to the new meta, however from the looks of it, it can be done.
I'd like to take this moment to point out the Iron Maiden spec.
The tank will be able to tank infinite number of adds, live, and kill em off for the team. The GF had to evolve to be able to step up to the new meta, however from the looks of it, it can be done.
With End game Gear/enchants CW's there are no mobs to tank as they have Aggro & Control of them.
uhm.. they hit the CW, it hits the GF, which hits them back with SS. Due to increased threat, it works.
I'm hardly one to argue with you. So I won't. I would just offer that you should go look at the spec, talk with the one who made it, see how it resolves out.
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
uhm.. they hit the CW, it hits the GF, which hits them back with SS. Due to increased threat, it works.
I'm hardly one to argue with you. So I won't. I would just offer that you should go look at the spec, talk with the one who made it, see how it resolves out.
The mobs haven't got time to hit the CW when there's 2-3 CWs and 2 GWFs. They're already dead.
RIP Neverwinter 26/06/2014
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
I am an elitist? Sure, and everyone whos been 60 for longer than a week is also an elitist. The entirety of /lfg is also elitist. Take a look at these forums. There are exactly two types of threads. Gfs suck threads, and guides on how to build the best gwf.
Sorry to break it to you but i am not the minority here. Once youve moved beyond gearing up in pugs you'll get it. Until then enjoy the low end groups while you can.
At this point the thread is getting ridiculous. There are few GFs that reported deleting their GF and rolled smth else, a large number of GFs who came to defend their class and explan how important it is and us, the rest, who play other classes and figured long ago GF is a handicap in our team. I find it amusing that the majority of people begging for a GF buff in this thread are non-GF players. I don't mind playing with one when it's someone else's friend but keep in mind you can roll on the loot like everyone else so you'd better bring an important contribution to the team, otherwise you're just slot-fillers. I'd rather have that slot free and I don't see how this is elitism if the majority of the LFG channel wouldn't take your GF in their team. LFG is at pug-level, we aren't talking about elitists here.
Iron Maiden builds are a sadly a more of a wishful thinking. For 2 reasons:
1) GWF and CW can kill/control all stuff so fast you don't even get to trigger it
2) Please check total damage done by the team (thats the sum of mob hp) and now compare it to total damage taken by the team (that's effective mob damage). You will see that these numbers are not even in the same league. Mobs, like in majority of other games, have huge hp and low damage compared to players, which is why even seemingly insane (say 200%) damage return still work out as very low dps.
I'd like to take this moment to point out the Iron Maiden spec.
The tank will be able to tank infinite number of adds, live, and kill em off for the team. The GF had to evolve to be able to step up to the new meta, however from the looks of it, it can be done.
Sorry, but this argument you bring is a proof that GF has no usefulness in good PvE.
The build that Todesfaelle make is a selfish survive build. It doesn't give any usefulness to a good team. No it hurt the entire team because of the slot waste. The build fill the gap between horrible teams and average teams to survive the dungeon. It doesn't make it smoother or easier for normal not stupid teams. I run T2 GG Dungeon with 3 GWFs + DC + someone else(not GF) and it was so much better, because we bomb the mobs + the boss in the same area in much lesser time as i ever have with any GF in the team. GF is only a useful slot for bad/average teams. Not more. The entire game mechanic make this truth.
As many have stated the GF is currently in a bad state for PvE same with TRs.
Also for those of you that think the only people that are supporting or complaining about the GF need to really think what you are saying.
I'm one of the oldest and most knowledgeable about the GF class and the class is currently in a really bad state for PvE. PvP they are pretty much an unkillable God due to the massive amount of Regen & full heal mechanic's from feats, artifacts & enchants.
The BIG problem is how can you buff the GF class & not completely break PvP.
IMO the class needs to be completely reworked into a Dual Wield DPS AoE class and remove tanking from the game completely. Or they completely change PvE to require tanking with mobs immune to CC and hit harder & faster.
I'm with Dkcandy who of course knows far more about the GF then the vast majority of us (not blowing smoke I've been reading the forums since beta - read up on the forums going back months and you'll agree with me in short order).
I honestly haven't played my GF in several weeks and he's just used for AD generation in leadership at this point and he's almost 17k GS. The TR is also getting worse by the patch but that is a separate topic.
Anyway the only way I can see to fix this is get the GF to actually be able to "Tank" vs whatever the hell it is they do now which is some weird kiting aggro generation abomination. I don't profess to know how best to do this and what the effects would be on PvP (and I honestly don't care about the PvP side of things but again different topic). All I know is the Dev's better figure out something soon or the GF will be going the way of the dodo soon (It's already very rare to see them in VT, MC or other top DD's).
I'm with Dkcandy who of course knows far more about the GF then the vast majority of us (not blowing smoke I've been reading the forums since beta - read up on the forums going back months and you'll agree with me in short order).
I honestly haven't played my GF in several weeks and he's just used for AD generation in leadership at this point and he's almost 17k GS. The TR is also getting worse by the patch but that is a separate topic.
Anyway the only way I can see to fix this is get the GF to actually be able to "Tank" vs whatever the hell it is they do now which is some weird kiting aggro generation abomination. I don't profess to know how best to do this and what the effects would be on PvP (and I honestly don't care about the PvP side of things but again different topic). All I know is the Dev's better figure out something soon or the GF will be going the way of the dodo soon (It's already very rare to see them in VT, MC or other top DD's).
GWF's had the same issues with PvE from beta till MOD 2 when they got a serious buff. No one really wanted a GWF because they couldn't tank as well as GF's & TR's/CW's did more dmg.
Now GF's are the old GWF and the PvE Meta has changed even more into CWs & DC only.
BETA Meta (DC's healing generated ton's of threat and they were the tanks) - (2) DCs, (1) TR (2) CWs
BETA Meta (DC threat patch - AS Stacking) - (2 or 3) DCs, (1) TR, (2) CWs
Release - (AS Patch to stop AS stacking) (1) DC, (1) TR, (1) GF, (2) CWs
End of Release to MOD 1 - (Community started farming CN) - (1) DC, (1) TR, (2-3) CWs (TR's campfire skipped)
MOD 1 - (MC released) - MC Groups (1) DC, (1) GF, (3) CWs or CN groups still (1) DC, (1) TR, (2-3) CWs
MOD 2 - (1) DC (4) CW's
As you can see CW's & DC's have always been the wanted class because it's the TOP healer /w TOP DPS. As the game as progressed there is less of a need for tanks.
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I really enjoy running dungeons as the "tank" but I know I am not needed. People are just being nice to me and letting me lead the group into battle, but it really doesn't matter. When I play my other characters and we don't have GF, we do just as good or better.
Gaining aggro, blocking big hits, marking stuff, really doesn't seem to matter. I play him because I like him, but I really want to see him improved regardless.
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
that's a fair summation dk but i disagree a bit with your timeline. multiple DC groups were always bad, only bad pugs used them.
beta through release was always 2tr2cw1dc. Once HV bug became known to all (and simultaneously, TRs received more and more nerfs) CW's realized they could deal aoe dmg and slowly CWs began replacing TRs. Prior to HV stacking there are 3 skills that no CW even had single point in because "they were bad/worthless" and those skills are Oppressive Force, Shard of the endless Avalanche, and Sudden Storm. Check any of the beta/early release cw guides or old forum posts, CWs focused on singu and shield popping adds only.
towards the end of mod 1 you'd sometimes see gwf in place of TR but the standard fair was 2-3cw, 1TR or GWF, 1 dc. The reason was GWFs were able to do most/all of the skips that TRs were doing. Animation cancel gwf's were dealing cw level aoe dps and their single target started to close the gap on TRs but still nobody took gwf's for dmg, only for skips.
With mod 2 gwfs are beginning to fill in cw spots in parties and people are finally realizing DCs aren't actually needed when your aoe dps reaches N, where N is the point where nothing lives long enough to hurt anyone.
GFs have never been ideal in parties and have never occupied a must fill spot, atleast not since open beta began.
Heck, there's a fair number of groups now where the group is CW+GWF only. No DC.
I've noticed that too but that's fully geared players and not the common trend... yet. :P
Reminds me a lot of WoW when players out geared the dungeons by leaps and trash / bosses was nothing. Cryptic really needs to do something to increase dungeon difficultly or add a Heroic Mod with better drops / Rewards with higher level trash that's CC immune forcing players to actually tank stuff.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited January 2014
As for tanking draco, as of today, I've cleared CN with all six classes in shadow mantle, in various compositions, various play styles, etc...
I am not saying tanking draco on a GF is hard. I wouldn't call it "easy" but it's not as hard as on TR for sure.
The advantage of GF or TR for that fight is not DPS, but rather GF puts draco on a leash and turns him into a little puppy. Then the CWs and DC have an easier job positioning themselves.
There's no question the TR does more damage, but you can't really take a hit, or block, and you have to dodge every red circle.
The problem isn't that dodging is hard, but rather if the TR has aggro it makes draco spin and makes it hard on the rest of the team.
This is somewhat of a moot point though to the thread ^^ What i see above by DKcandy is true. It is just more efficient with other classes in most contexts. I hope that the new patch will fix things for the GF. I am really looking forward to it.
I'm just gonna go ahead and say this about the elite element in this game I'm not trying to bash anyone or anything but.
I was my 12k CW in karrundax and we had a TR who couldn't make the run from after 2nd boss to third and the 17k GF was telling the tr that they were the worst tr he'd ever seen and noobish and whatnot and wouldn't go to help her get there. And you can't (with-out cheating) get into boss fights without all party members and he was frequently rude and trying to kick her and two others out of the dungeon at the last boss and I'm pretty sure he tried to kick me too.
Now I was a CW; which means I have THE worst defense out of everyone yet I went all the way back grabbed the tr and brought her to the camp and then we wiped 1 more time then he then started calling me a nub among other things even though I a CW ran ALONE and got her to the camp and if that makes me a nub so what I'm a nub but at least I'm a better person.
The elite need to stop thinking they are better than everyone else, because they aren't. They just have better stuff and some of the worst attitudes I've ever seen.
And again if you get offended by this then you are probably one of the elites I'm talking about and you need to change your attitude if you happen to actually care. It's not all elites; some are good people but it is only some of a very small pool of players.
And if you are so elite you should be helping others instead of telling them they suck or whatever. That way maybe they won't "suck" anymore or just keep your mouth shut its all the same.:)
On a side note fitting with the thread I happen to like the GF. Yeah the damage could be better but even if it's not buffed I'll still play and wreck house with mine.
So after all, tanking is just obsolete from a certain point of gear when the parties start to be beyond the difficulty of the dungeons.
(Apart from the possibility that one could manage to complete a dungeon without a tank before that point.)
But I do not think that an increase of difficulty is the right answer to this problem as it would make gearing up more problematic; maybe some diminishing returns for the damage of over geared players could solve this issue without giving lower geared players too hard of a time.
So after all, tanking is just obsolete from a certain point of gear when the parties start to be beyond the difficulty of the dungeons.
(Apart from the possibility that one could manage to complete a dungeon without a tank before that point.)
But I do not think that an increase of difficulty is the right answer to this problem as it would make gearing up more problematic; maybe some diminishing returns for the damage of over geared players could solve this issue without giving lower geared players too hard of a time.
Increasing the difficulty is not going to help an underperforming class. The problem is simply that the group is often more effective without a GF than with him. Therefore, he has little place in competitive parties.
And yes, I know the whole fairytale about Cryptic wanting to keep all composition viable, but, at the end of the day, we all know it is a load of BS. A Party that overgears the encounter can take mostly any combination and win, sure. But go tell them about not having a CW. or a DC. They will, without doubt, see it as a handicap. One they may be able to overcome, but a handicap. Not having a GF? usually not at all.
Sorry, but this argument you bring is a proof that GF has no usefulness in good PvE.
The build that Todesfaelle make is a selfish survive build. It doesn't give any usefulness to a good team. No it hurt the entire team because of the slot waste. The build fill the gap between horrible teams and average teams to survive the dungeon. It doesn't make it smoother or easier for normal not stupid teams. I run T2 GG Dungeon with 3 GWFs + DC + someone else(not GF) and it was so much better, because we bomb the mobs + the boss in the same area in much lesser time as i ever have with any GF in the team. GF is only a useful slot for bad/average teams. Not more. The entire game mechanic make this truth.
Wait, what?
Aggro control so not having to use pots.
Into the fray so you get a speed AND AP gain increase.
KV so you only take half damage if you are hit.
This is beside what DPS the tank can do with the stuff. Can also gather the mobs into one location since they would all be hit by the GF. No.. no, the GF brings plenty for the team. The problem that is being discussed here is speed and efficiency. Those who play the speed game of farm as much as possible say the GF is too slow.
Does the GF need help? Absolutely. It'd be great if something could be done for it.
Is it useless now? No. However it hinders those who want speed runs, so is seen as useless.
Again I agree with this, the gf isn't useless unless yes you are trying to run through a dungeon but wheres the fun in running? Sure, theres a sense of accomplishment with running it in 10 minutes or whatever; but like shadow said into the fray will increase speed and not many encounters besides a mastery slotted steal time can do this.
And KV is amazing as I've said in many threads no GWF will be able to do this ever probably, tell you what though if they could that would be some ridiculous stuff.
And Todesfaelle's build is still good even with a good team I can assure you of that and how is taking half the teams damage and reflecting it back selfish?. Is it selfish? It lets KV build even more aggro AND make you invincible via steel defense and SoS whilst doing it. GWF in and of itself is way more selfish than that.
But really trying to convince other people of some things is like trying to convert someone to another religion it doesn't work unless...
A. They are actively interested in what you have to say.
Comments
You say I am a low end player because I talk about being asked to face-tank bosses? Please tell me, what is a TANK supposed to do? By definition we are intended to stand in the way of the biggest, hardest hitting object. I done that. You ridicule that. Makes no sense whatsoever.
Sure, I kited the last boss in Spellplague. We didn't wipe, killed him first time. Safe to say I done my job well, no? I also face-tanked bosses 1 & 2, but alas, a TANK, TANKING bosses is meaningless. Where is the problem in all of that? I done what was asked of me and we completed the run with one lag-induced hiccup. Point, which you missed out on, they ASKED for a GF. They didn't say ''LF CW but will take GF'', they ASKED for a GF. Who cares if I kited 1/3 bosses?
If you cannot out damage Syndryth's healing and if you don't stick to her like glue, that fight can be a pain. Also, popping Enforced Threat and keeping Blademasters (which hit like trains) on me is a bad thing? I can assure you, the CWs would rather have Blademasters hitting me and not them, as would the DC.
Yes, I consider CN/VT/MC in a different light to the other T2s. If you are struggling in T2s, bosses 3 & 4 in CN will slap you around and VT last boss will LOL at you.
I don't dispute that we can be brushed up. Our mechanics can be sped up, for example. Tabbing on the run, tweaking our guard mechanics and guard meter will help, Cleave could be faster, limits on aggro can be increased/removed, etc. Also, final boss fights can be tweaked to make as a viable option in the few fights where we may not be necessary. But to try and use an elitist paintbrush to outright rubbish our value is wrong. There are many, many players out there that can, will and do use GFs in their runs. And as the poster above me mentioned, there are GFs out there that can actually run with the best of the best.
Could things be better? Yes. Are we utterly useless? No.
Kiting mobs on the last boss of SP is what low end groups do, thus low end groups request a GF. Once you have gear you simply pile everything on the boss and AOE it down in 2 seconds, including the boss, so that the platforms fall in 60s max and it's a 5 minute boss fight instead of 15-25. The only time a high end group kites is if they happen to have a GF because they contribute nothing else, and then you can just kite all the adds while the other 4 kill boss and then singu all the adds over at once when the platform falls. It's slower because you have only 4 on boss instead of 5 but it gives GF something to do. Usually though there is no gf in party unless it's someone's friend.
not being able to out damage syndryth's healing is a concern only for low end groups. Which yet again illustrates my point. When you are better geared blademasters are no longer a threat to cw/dc because a: they have nearly as much survivability as your gf and b: blademasters only live 3 seconds.
First, 3rd boss in CN is the easiest so not sure where you are getting your information from. Second, again, only low end groups are struggling in T2s. In low end groups GFs are fine. You are missing the point.
I'm going to assume your conq and stack power, putting your 16k gs on the low end (16k was decent conq GF gs prior to mod 1). That or you're overgeared and roll with low end pugs to feel more useful. Either way you are talking low end groups, and saying GFs are fine. Nobody is arguing with you, in lowbie groups GFs are fine. beyond that they struggle towards uselessness. They need serious buffs.
From everything you've posted it is clear that you are a low end player. I don't mean that in a derogatory manner, it's simply the truth. You're talking about completing T2 dungeons with only 1 or 2 wipes and claiming victory here, saying you can run with the best of the best. Only 1 wipe in SP? I've 2-manned SP from start to finish with GWF and non-perma stealth TR, before they nerfed all the T2s and made them even easier than they already were, back when 2manning that dungeon was actually an accomplishment.
In terms of gear and skill I'm likely middle ground. I won't speed anything but I won't wipe out and won't stuff up.
You are an elitist. Your thinking is elitist. Your viewpoint is elitist. What you are saying encompasses the minority element, not the majority.
You two-manned SP from start to finish? Well done but do not even act like the general gaming population can do that. Again, you are using what the few can do to paint the many in a negative/inferior light.
I did not say only a GF can face tank a boss. What I did say was that my party ASKED for a tank, then they asked the tank to TANK after many said that people don't need/want tanks. They did not ask the deeps TR or HR to go and stand in red all fight long, they asked me to do it.
I do not PUG low end groups to feel good. How very condescending of you to even imply that. How would I even find a ''low end'' group? I am pugging to gear up, so no, I'm not farming FH because it is easy and I can baby-sit people through 2/3 fights. I check what dungeon I need to go to next for whatever gear I need and hit LFG.
3rd boss CN comment comes from actual personal experience in that dungeon. 1 and 2 are pieces of cake.
I also did not say we are perfectly fine. I concurred that the game as a whole is geared towards CWs (which marginalises not just the GF) and that we can use a fix up here and there and a few boss fights could be tweaked. However, I did say that we are not utterly useless. Your mindset is that if you are a GF, once you hit 60 and clear T1s it is GG. You are wrong. It is not perfect out there but it isn't GG. Running CN twice inside DD isn't the objective of this game. Killing a final boss in 30 seconds isn't the target. Completing CN at all is the objective. Killing the boss is the target. If it takes you an hour, two hours, three hours, it is still job done. If you can clear a dungeon in 20 - 30 minutes that is great. Well done. But rest assured, you are among the few that can do it.
However, it's only really at higher gear levels that this problem arises. A GF is still very useful at the fresh 60 8-12k bracket, just kinda pointless once everyone gets to the point where they don't need anything tanking and stuff dies quicker than they can figure out who to attack.
^ that.
that's what I've been saying every time in the post.
But I don't have a GF at 60 yet, so I don't count as much.
can you say something about your (GF) build and playstyle? i got curious ...
In gear I have radiants in offense slots and I think dark in defense slots bc lifesteal is essential to do anything hard in PvE.
On my stone I stack armor pen, but I am close to cap so I will drop a little.
For my weapon enchant I just switched to a gpf
For cn clear in a good team I just go first, cast fray and enforces threat and swing though singularity. I am testing frontline vs anvil but I think frontline is slightly better.
For gear, if the team is very good I will wear timeless, but if we struggle I switch to regent.
For Draco I'll wear the fomorisn set and use fray, lunging and anvil. I just face tank him. When he knocks me back, I close with threatening rush, when he breaths I sidestep a little to the left,mans after breast or wing flap I dart in with lunging strike.
It is obviously essential that you block the hands!
Now if Draco gets to the edge of the inner rifle I turn him left, which it towards the Cws. This way the wizards are fighting under the wing, on the open side. Draco will take a few small steps towards you, so you just walk him around the circles, the Cws drop sing n his torso, and nuke everything. This way they never get the head or the tail and their job is much easier.
I think in that fight I have like 5500 power, 1000 crit 2000 arp 1000 recovery 5000 def 2500 deflect 2000 regen and 1000 lifesteal, but I'm not looking at it right now.
I think she's very balanced. For kiting battles it's the same bar as trash, just wear regent and use enhanced mark. It's actually easy.
So yea, gf is useful. But like all classes you have to balance your stats and play for the team
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
So. You tank draco. Good for you. Pray tell why a TR who has 2x more single target dps even if you slot kn challenge, 3x more without it, is not WAY better for it? A skilled TR has 0 issues tanking draco and burns him WAY faster. Same for GWF.
On the more constructive side - as you said your arpen is likely too high unless you rolled with less then 12 dex (with 12 dex, ending at 15 with campfire, you would need 1850 arpen for 24% pen).
I made a run in T2 GG Dungeon. We have 2 Healer 1 Tr 1 HR and me as GWF. What happened? The Tr die fast because to stupid/lagkill near boss. THe HR got killed by mobs. So what was the tactic? DCs + me bombing mobs near the boss. We had several times that only 2 mobs exist next to the boss, which mean that we had 2 men the whole Endboss. Tank GF? Useless slot. He had dyed hard in the trying to overkill the enemies and to protect the 2 Healers. Overrunned by the more and more spawning mobs.
The more tankier your group is, the worser your run will be(easier in terms of surviving) especially in terms of time. FH is the best example that the pro GF fraction bring. But what mean that for us GF? Are we babysitters for the 20+ mobs with the limited combat mechanic and spawn mechanic? You simply don't need a tank there! What tactic GWF tank the mobs? Silly and plain not any tactic! All on boss and the DC build healer aggro against all mobs. So while all mobs aren't damaged by any other guy, the aggro is at the DC for his healing. This mean 0 GF but 4 dps + DC. The best example of needed GF show only the clueless of the GF itself. Im a protector GF and it's shocking to meet such moments, which i check, that other team compilations work the same way, if not better.
GF is sub-optimal in comparison to GWF. No i don't count con GF, because it show too how broken the balance is between all 3 trees.
The content is as it is now only DPS(or a bit CC) focused. Tanky compositions are less useful as dps in most cases. And that's the reason why the class GF is broken in term of PvE class balance.
The tank will be able to tank infinite number of adds, live, and kill em off for the team. The GF had to evolve to be able to step up to the new meta, however from the looks of it, it can be done.
With End game Gear/enchants CW's there are no mobs to tank as they have Aggro & Control of them.
CW > GWF > GF/TR/HR > PUG
I'm hardly one to argue with you. So I won't.
The mobs haven't got time to hit the CW when there's 2-3 CWs and 2 GWFs. They're already dead.
Sorry to break it to you but i am not the minority here. Once youve moved beyond gearing up in pugs you'll get it. Until then enjoy the low end groups while you can.
1) GWF and CW can kill/control all stuff so fast you don't even get to trigger it
2) Please check total damage done by the team (thats the sum of mob hp) and now compare it to total damage taken by the team (that's effective mob damage). You will see that these numbers are not even in the same league. Mobs, like in majority of other games, have huge hp and low damage compared to players, which is why even seemingly insane (say 200%) damage return still work out as very low dps.
Sorry, but this argument you bring is a proof that GF has no usefulness in good PvE.
The build that Todesfaelle make is a selfish survive build. It doesn't give any usefulness to a good team. No it hurt the entire team because of the slot waste. The build fill the gap between horrible teams and average teams to survive the dungeon. It doesn't make it smoother or easier for normal not stupid teams. I run T2 GG Dungeon with 3 GWFs + DC + someone else(not GF) and it was so much better, because we bomb the mobs + the boss in the same area in much lesser time as i ever have with any GF in the team. GF is only a useful slot for bad/average teams. Not more. The entire game mechanic make this truth.
Also for those of you that think the only people that are supporting or complaining about the GF need to really think what you are saying.
I'm one of the oldest and most knowledgeable about the GF class and the class is currently in a really bad state for PvE. PvP they are pretty much an unkillable God due to the massive amount of Regen & full heal mechanic's from feats, artifacts & enchants.
The BIG problem is how can you buff the GF class & not completely break PvP.
IMO the class needs to be completely reworked into a Dual Wield DPS AoE class and remove tanking from the game completely. Or they completely change PvE to require tanking with mobs immune to CC and hit harder & faster.
I honestly haven't played my GF in several weeks and he's just used for AD generation in leadership at this point and he's almost 17k GS. The TR is also getting worse by the patch but that is a separate topic.
Anyway the only way I can see to fix this is get the GF to actually be able to "Tank" vs whatever the hell it is they do now which is some weird kiting aggro generation abomination. I don't profess to know how best to do this and what the effects would be on PvP (and I honestly don't care about the PvP side of things but again different topic). All I know is the Dev's better figure out something soon or the GF will be going the way of the dodo soon (It's already very rare to see them in VT, MC or other top DD's).
GWF's had the same issues with PvE from beta till MOD 2 when they got a serious buff. No one really wanted a GWF because they couldn't tank as well as GF's & TR's/CW's did more dmg.
Now GF's are the old GWF and the PvE Meta has changed even more into CWs & DC only.
BETA Meta (DC's healing generated ton's of threat and they were the tanks) - (2) DCs, (1) TR (2) CWs
BETA Meta (DC threat patch - AS Stacking) - (2 or 3) DCs, (1) TR, (2) CWs
Release - (AS Patch to stop AS stacking) (1) DC, (1) TR, (1) GF, (2) CWs
End of Release to MOD 1 - (Community started farming CN) - (1) DC, (1) TR, (2-3) CWs (TR's campfire skipped)
MOD 1 - (MC released) - MC Groups (1) DC, (1) GF, (3) CWs or CN groups still (1) DC, (1) TR, (2-3) CWs
MOD 2 - (1) DC (4) CW's
As you can see CW's & DC's have always been the wanted class because it's the TOP healer /w TOP DPS. As the game as progressed there is less of a need for tanks.
Gaining aggro, blocking big hits, marking stuff, really doesn't seem to matter. I play him because I like him, but I really want to see him improved regardless.
beta through release was always 2tr2cw1dc. Once HV bug became known to all (and simultaneously, TRs received more and more nerfs) CW's realized they could deal aoe dmg and slowly CWs began replacing TRs. Prior to HV stacking there are 3 skills that no CW even had single point in because "they were bad/worthless" and those skills are Oppressive Force, Shard of the endless Avalanche, and Sudden Storm. Check any of the beta/early release cw guides or old forum posts, CWs focused on singu and shield popping adds only.
towards the end of mod 1 you'd sometimes see gwf in place of TR but the standard fair was 2-3cw, 1TR or GWF, 1 dc. The reason was GWFs were able to do most/all of the skips that TRs were doing. Animation cancel gwf's were dealing cw level aoe dps and their single target started to close the gap on TRs but still nobody took gwf's for dmg, only for skips.
With mod 2 gwfs are beginning to fill in cw spots in parties and people are finally realizing DCs aren't actually needed when your aoe dps reaches N, where N is the point where nothing lives long enough to hurt anyone.
GFs have never been ideal in parties and have never occupied a must fill spot, atleast not since open beta began.
I've noticed that too but that's fully geared players and not the common trend... yet. :P
Reminds me a lot of WoW when players out geared the dungeons by leaps and trash / bosses was nothing. Cryptic really needs to do something to increase dungeon difficultly or add a Heroic Mod with better drops / Rewards with higher level trash that's CC immune forcing players to actually tank stuff.
I am not saying tanking draco on a GF is hard. I wouldn't call it "easy" but it's not as hard as on TR for sure.
The advantage of GF or TR for that fight is not DPS, but rather GF puts draco on a leash and turns him into a little puppy. Then the CWs and DC have an easier job positioning themselves.
There's no question the TR does more damage, but you can't really take a hit, or block, and you have to dodge every red circle.
The problem isn't that dodging is hard, but rather if the TR has aggro it makes draco spin and makes it hard on the rest of the team.
This is somewhat of a moot point though to the thread ^^ What i see above by DKcandy is true. It is just more efficient with other classes in most contexts. I hope that the new patch will fix things for the GF. I am really looking forward to it.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
I was my 12k CW in karrundax and we had a TR who couldn't make the run from after 2nd boss to third and the 17k GF was telling the tr that they were the worst tr he'd ever seen and noobish and whatnot and wouldn't go to help her get there. And you can't (with-out cheating) get into boss fights without all party members and he was frequently rude and trying to kick her and two others out of the dungeon at the last boss and I'm pretty sure he tried to kick me too.
Now I was a CW; which means I have THE worst defense out of everyone yet I went all the way back grabbed the tr and brought her to the camp and then we wiped 1 more time then he then started calling me a nub among other things even though I a CW ran ALONE and got her to the camp and if that makes me a nub so what I'm a nub but at least I'm a better person.
The elite need to stop thinking they are better than everyone else, because they aren't. They just have better stuff and some of the worst attitudes I've ever seen.
And again if you get offended by this then you are probably one of the elites I'm talking about and you need to change your attitude if you happen to actually care. It's not all elites; some are good people but it is only some of a very small pool of players.
And if you are so elite you should be helping others instead of telling them they suck or whatever. That way maybe they won't "suck" anymore or just keep your mouth shut its all the same.:)
On a side note fitting with the thread I happen to like the GF. Yeah the damage could be better but even if it's not buffed I'll still play and wreck house with mine.
(Apart from the possibility that one could manage to complete a dungeon without a tank before that point.)
But I do not think that an increase of difficulty is the right answer to this problem as it would make gearing up more problematic; maybe some diminishing returns for the damage of over geared players could solve this issue without giving lower geared players too hard of a time.
Increasing the difficulty is not going to help an underperforming class. The problem is simply that the group is often more effective without a GF than with him. Therefore, he has little place in competitive parties.
And yes, I know the whole fairytale about Cryptic wanting to keep all composition viable, but, at the end of the day, we all know it is a load of BS. A Party that overgears the encounter can take mostly any combination and win, sure. But go tell them about not having a CW. or a DC. They will, without doubt, see it as a handicap. One they may be able to overcome, but a handicap. Not having a GF? usually not at all.
Wait, what?
Aggro control so not having to use pots.
Into the fray so you get a speed AND AP gain increase.
KV so you only take half damage if you are hit.
This is beside what DPS the tank can do with the stuff. Can also gather the mobs into one location since they would all be hit by the GF. No.. no, the GF brings plenty for the team. The problem that is being discussed here is speed and efficiency. Those who play the speed game of farm as much as possible say the GF is too slow.
Does the GF need help? Absolutely. It'd be great if something could be done for it.
Is it useless now? No. However it hinders those who want speed runs, so is seen as useless.
Again I agree with this, the gf isn't useless unless yes you are trying to run through a dungeon but wheres the fun in running? Sure, theres a sense of accomplishment with running it in 10 minutes or whatever; but like shadow said into the fray will increase speed and not many encounters besides a mastery slotted steal time can do this.
And KV is amazing as I've said in many threads no GWF will be able to do this ever probably, tell you what though if they could that would be some ridiculous stuff.
And Todesfaelle's build is still good even with a good team I can assure you of that and how is taking half the teams damage and reflecting it back selfish?. Is it selfish? It lets KV build even more aggro AND make you invincible via steel defense and SoS whilst doing it. GWF in and of itself is way more selfish than that.
But really trying to convince other people of some things is like trying to convert someone to another religion it doesn't work unless...
A. They are actively interested in what you have to say.
OR
B. They love you and are willing to change.