I have leveled all 5 classes to 60, and never died once in PvE.
Note: prior to level 60, I *never* did any dungeons or skirmishes, since they are a total waste of time pre-60. So, in that regard, it was really easy to never die while leveling.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2013
An achievement or title would be nice if you manage to get to 60 unharmed, or let's say run all epics without dying.
But a serious penalty, like XP/item loss? Hell no. This is a game where you depend on 4 other people. You might be as pro as they come, but one time your team will wipe and you will end up alone with some nasty lich&dragon combo, and you will die too, even with R10 and Perfect enchants. For example, I hated the XP penalty on Path of Exile, forced me to run a tanky build contrary to my glass cannon affinities. I'd hate it even more on NWO.
Interesting and worthy challenge. I think if you decide to give it a try then you should put some emphasis on it by creating a dedicated thred with your daily progress. I'd say, dont do group quests/dungeons. Once one or two folks die, all the group dies. Also there are the bugs. Sometimes your screen freezes for 10-15 seconds. You'r not disconnected, the mobs on the server are sill hitting you but your scrren is frozen, and once it returns to normal you discover that you're dead.
Also you may want to clarify some points such as
Will you use potions?
Will you get XP by invoking/professions?
Will you use a healing pet?
Will you gear with Zen or only with what you loot?
First, I really appreciate all of the feedback, suggestions and encouragement this topic has generated. vortix44, let me clarify:
1. Yes. I have and will use continue to use potions. Magic and alchemy are integral parts of the and, to me, potions are a by product of those practices. Also, they appear as standard drops and there are even occasions where mobs use them. All that in mind, I think it's fair to say their use is legitimate.
2. I will not actively seek xp through professions. I would like to level some professions as it is a part of the game but not with the intent of farming xp. If I can level a profession without gaining non-profession xp, that's the route I'll take. I see invoking as a more legit way to be rewarded experience. I see it as the gods providing wisdom and knowledge to the character. Others may disagree, which is cool. But, in reality when measured against the amounts necessary to level into the 20s and beyond, invoking xp is a but a small amount.
3. I will not use a healer pet. The intention is to use a standard dog companion for my loner, wandering GF. It may not be 'optimal' but it fits more in with the concept of my character.
4. No gear through Zen. Playing basically what drops.
As I mentioned to beckylunatic earlier, glitches such as disconnects, power failures, etc. won't count as deaths. And I'd like to reiterate, I don't think there should be a game mechanism that punishes players for dying beyond what already exists. This is just a self-inflicted challenge.
Dying should be much more then it is. I would think a gold/ad loss as well as an xp loss. Its silly to die repeatedly and lose nothing. Dying without any loss doesnt provide a D&D feel. It supplies a crappy mmo shoot um up feel.
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
edited September 2013
OP, if you're not going to use the cleric companion, then I'd suggest keeping a generous supply of portable altars w/ you so you can regen between fights. Keeping a stock of potions would also be wise.
If you're going to stick to the dog companion, you may want to consider keeping 2 dogs in your active companion slots, that way you can have one off training while the other is out and active.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Appreciate the advice, bioshrike, and I follow it. I always keep an ample amount of altars and potions as standard practice. They drop often enough that the coin outlay for them really is minimal. It's just a matter of using them wisely.
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vikingbradMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Dying should be much more then it is. I would think a gold/ad loss as well as an xp loss. Its silly to die repeatedly and lose nothing. Dying without any loss doesnt provide a D&D feel. It supplies a crappy mmo shoot um up feel.
You also get Revive Sickness which prevents others reviving you for a set period of time. Not important in solo but in party dungeons can be a pain. No way to speed up recovery either just have to wait the 3m or be very careful.
Also if you die during a boss fight you are out of the fight until either remaining members are successful or wiped. Its pretty important reason to stay alive.
Ricky Gervatheist Lvl 60 DC on Dragon Server
Looking for a guild for PvE Dungeons to suit AEST evenings
I've only had a handful of hours to play the last few days, but I have started the next character in this quest. Human GF named Stephen Mourn on the Beholder server. So if you see him running by in PE, feel free to point and laugh.
Anyway, up to level 14 and going through the Tower District quests at this point. The only thing of note so far is that I queued for the Blacklake Terror skirmish when I finished the Nest Egg quest in PE. So at that point I had just hit level 10. I ran around doing the small PE quests that followed (Domination, Professional) and then headed into the Tower district. I knocked out the Waukeegan Way quests which bumoed me up to level 11. At that point, I had been in the queue for nearly an hour. So, I decided to call it a night (this was about 8:30 PM Eastern US when I finished). I logged on early this morning and the first thing I did was requeue for the Blacklake Skirmish and started running through the first quests for Captain Janros. I didn't want to level past the skirmish, but 45 minutes later and the quests complete, I was still waiting. I just turned the quests in and bumped to level 12. Nearly two hours total in queue at two separate times and no skirmish. Frustrating.
Anyway, I just took it out on some orcs and will keep plugging away.
You also get Revive Sickness which prevents others reviving you for a set period of time. Not important in solo but in party dungeons can be a pain. No way to speed up recovery either just have to wait the 3m or be very careful.
Also if you die during a boss fight you are out of the fight until either remaining members are successful or wiped. Its pretty important reason to stay alive.
Conversely, in D&D your character is now trash. Now in a video game this is too much. But i consider things like res sickness or not being in the boss fight as nothing. It would create a more focused and fun experience imo as players would have alot more to lose. Creating better overall teamwork and quality gameplay.
More serious death penalties would also cut out the ridiculous "dying to progress" through dungeons thats so wildly popular and so wildly not fun at all.
0
tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Conversely, in D&D your character is now trash. Now in a video game this is too much. But i consider things like res sickness or not being in the boss fight as nothing. It would create a more focused and fun experience imo as players would have alot more to lose. Creating better overall teamwork and quality gameplay.
More serious death penalties would also cut out the ridiculous "dying to progress" through dungeons thats so wildly popular and so wildly not fun at all.
It's also a good way to kill 90% of the casual playerbase.
It's also a good way to kill 90% of the casual playerbase.
This exactly. MMOs have steadily moved away from death penalties for years. There is nothing to gain by punishing your player base. Especially when, in most cases, dying is often due to outside forces, group failure, lag, ect, rather then player error.
It is far better to reward staying alive then to punish death. Champions has a system where you earn stars that grant bonus damage. The longer you live the more stars you earn. Death simply removes some from you. In that light this game is fairly harsh by Cryptic standards and maintains a system very similar to STO.
This exactly. MMOs have steadily moved away from death penalties for years. There is nothing to gain by punishing your player base. Especially when, in most cases, dying is often due to outside forces, group failure, lag, ect, rather then player error.
It is far better to reward staying alive then to punish death. Champions has a system where you earn stars that grant bonus damage. The longer you live the more stars you earn. Death simply removes some from you. In that light this game is fairly harsh by Cryptic standards and maintains a system very similar to STO.
So no one can think outside the box? Just because other online games have trends, this has to have the same? D&D has always been special due to not following trends. Its a horrible idea to just say, o well everyone else does it. Not good.
In addition players held accountable makes for better players which makes for better game. Quality should always come first, yes?
An option for a 'hardcore death punishment' I'd be fine with. But the critical word is option. Making it mandatory would do more harm than good, imo. Yes, the levelling in the game is pretty fast. But what fun is it to work for hours carefully nuturing a character only to have all of that work wiped out in a moment due to something that may be beyond the player's direct control (i.e. having to go afk at an inopportune moment or, worse yet, an in game glich/bug)?
An option for a 'hardcore death punishment' I'd be fine with. But the critical word is option. Making it mandatory would do more harm than good, imo. Yes, the levelling in the game is pretty fast. But what fun is it to work for hours carefully nuturing a character only to have all of that work wiped out in a moment due to something that may be beyond the player's direct control (i.e. having to go afk at an inopportune moment or, worse yet, an in game glich/bug)?
Never was an issue in NWN2 or several other D&D video games. Cant count how many times ive died and lost 10% exp. Yet somehow managed 7+ 30 lvl toons. (max lvl in D&D) All it did was get all the players more involved. More thinking less button pushing . More thinking is always good imo.
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
Never was an issue in NWN2 or several other D&D video games. Cant count how many times ive died and lost 10% exp. Yet somehow managed 7+ 30 lvl toons. (max lvl in D&D) All it did was get all the players more involved. More thinking less button pushing . More thinking is always good imo.
Couldn't you "pause" NWN2 to issue commands and such? Couldn't you restore from a save in that game as well? We can do neither of those things here, so it's not a fair comparison. IIRC, you could also issue direct commands to your other party members, which helps a lot.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Until there is an option for a saving throw against lag spikes and bag groups. Lets keep death as it is. Yea even DnD had a stop gap against needless and stupid death. Go figure.
D&D has always been special due to not following trends
Wut? DnD has ALWAYS followed trends. From the the inception where it borrowed heavily from Tolkin. To the rules heavy 3 plus editions that where shaped in part as counters to competition from other systems like GURPs. To 4.0 that was inspired/influenced by video games. It has always been about trends. To say otherwise is just foolishness. They are a company like any other, following trends is simply good business.
Never was an issue in NWN2 or several other D&D video games. Cant count how many times ive died and lost 10% exp. Yet somehow managed 7+ 30 lvl toons. (max lvl in D&D) All it did was get all the players more involved. More thinking less button pushing . More thinking is always good imo.
But, again, why make it mandatory as opposed to an option? Yes, thinking is always good; but, in this context, so is variety and an ability to choose. Appeal to the broadest base by giving folks the chance to play the way they want to.
Couldn't you "pause" NWN2 to issue commands and such? Couldn't you restore from a save in that game as well? We can do neither of those things here, so it's not a fair comparison. IIRC, you could also issue direct commands to your other party members, which helps a lot.
No. only the DM could pause the game. The game ran in real time and players had no way to stop it. Your referencing the single player variety. NWN2 was an online game as well as single player.
Wut? DnD has ALWAYS followed trends. From the the inception where it borrowed heavily from Tolkin. To the rules heavy 3 plus editions that where shaped in part as counters to competition from other systems like GURPs. To 4.0 that was inspired/influenced by video games. It has always been about trends. To say otherwise is just foolishness. They are a company like any other, following trends is simply good business.
Not to the point of do it like this game or that game, its always been self contained, and took the lead in this department. Games used to get there Ps and Qs from D&D, not the other way around, at least thats my observation in 20 years of D&D gaming. To think fundamentals need to change because of what some other mmo is doing is sad to say the least imo.
4e was created for video games, this is not good. Because 4e is the most dumbed down version ever released. So the recent "trends" for D&D are all bad, very bad as its losing its originality.
Regardless, even in the awful 4e when your dead your just dead. Having more serious repercussions when dying for this game would only improve teamwork and gameplay as a whole imho, as it has in soooo many other D&D games. Video games or otherwise.
Of course, everything comes from somewhere, most fantasy based things arguabley all originate from Tolkien. As his driving force came from greek mythology..
Greek mythology to Tolkien, Tolkien to D&D, D&D to 4e/mmo???? This chain sounds like quality is being reduced at an alarming rate. Theres trend for ya. One that should be avoided if at all possible.
When magic the gathering(WotC) bought out TSR.... Its only gotten worse. Ive seen marked quality reduction from that point moving forward.
That said, how easy/hard/impossible is it to get to 60 without a 'death' assuming that one plays the PVE content through the standard questlines/skirmishes/dungeons?
Don't queue for dungeon delves after level 25-ish. The Randomness of PUGs will end up getting you killed more than once on the journey to 60.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Well, that's again the multiplayer version. Most people are familiar with only the single player, which allows you to pause at any time.
Of course, point being in that game there is gold/xp loss when killed. And its not a problem at all. As it should be in this game to improve teamwork and gameplay, and add more thought. Thinking = good. Button pushing = not good.
Its an apt comparison because both multiplayer games run in the exact same real time. ( and cannot be paused)
So in short by not doing this it creates more button pushing, less thinking and less quality.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited September 2013
Baldur's Gate online MP penalizes death? Huh.
I'm also mostly familiar with the SP version, where you just reload, and the worst thing that would generally happen is you might not have saved in a while. Really-worst-case-scenario, you've managed your save games poorly and gotten yourself stuck.
Hey, folks. As mentioned in another thread, I'm pretty new to MMOs in general with NW being my first experience. One of the things I've noticed is there is no real punishment for 'dying'. And I get it. It's not really in the game and its community's interests to have prohibitive penalties for getting wiped in a dungeon or some such. Who in their right mind would take their time to get a character to top level if it can be taken away because of a poor grouping, having to be called afk at the wrong time, etc.?
That said, how easy/hard/impossible is it to get to 60 without a 'death' assuming that one plays the PVE content through the standard questlines/skirmishes/dungeons? I have two char slots and I'm considering devoting one of those slots to trying this. But if the consensus is that it's either impossible or ridiculously easy then I'm not going to bother.
Any thoughts are appreciated.
I've gotten through all the content up to 60 with no deaths on my first toon... Didn't even know what injury kits were for until I did an epic dungeon.
Now that I'm more experienced and a lot bolder... I tend to die more often... because I take greater risk... but my first TR I did not die until I ran a T2 dungeon and had no injury kits because I sold them all, not knowing what they were for
I'm also mostly familiar with the SP version, where you just reload, and the worst thing that would generally happen is you might not have saved in a while. Really-worst-case-scenario, you've managed your save games poorly and gotten yourself stuck.
Every D&D game ive ever played in my life penalizes death.... its death. There should be substantial loss, so players make a honest attempt to avoid it.
Except in this game were dying is actual progress. lol. Lets run to the next save point and die so that we can progress more easily through the dungeon. Insane.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited September 2013
I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I'm unfamiliar with this version of Baldur's Gate that's implemented a mechanic to penalize death in such a way. In the game I know and love, if the player designated Bhaalspawn dies, it's effectively game over, since the story dictates you can't be raised (plot holes aside). Thus, you reload from whenever you last saved, potentially losing progress, but nothing else.
Comments
Note: prior to level 60, I *never* did any dungeons or skirmishes, since they are a total waste of time pre-60. So, in that regard, it was really easy to never die while leveling.
But a serious penalty, like XP/item loss? Hell no. This is a game where you depend on 4 other people. You might be as pro as they come, but one time your team will wipe and you will end up alone with some nasty lich&dragon combo, and you will die too, even with R10 and Perfect enchants. For example, I hated the XP penalty on Path of Exile, forced me to run a tanky build contrary to my glass cannon affinities. I'd hate it even more on NWO.
First, I really appreciate all of the feedback, suggestions and encouragement this topic has generated. vortix44, let me clarify:
1. Yes. I have and will use continue to use potions. Magic and alchemy are integral parts of the and, to me, potions are a by product of those practices. Also, they appear as standard drops and there are even occasions where mobs use them. All that in mind, I think it's fair to say their use is legitimate.
2. I will not actively seek xp through professions. I would like to level some professions as it is a part of the game but not with the intent of farming xp. If I can level a profession without gaining non-profession xp, that's the route I'll take. I see invoking as a more legit way to be rewarded experience. I see it as the gods providing wisdom and knowledge to the character. Others may disagree, which is cool. But, in reality when measured against the amounts necessary to level into the 20s and beyond, invoking xp is a but a small amount.
3. I will not use a healer pet. The intention is to use a standard dog companion for my loner, wandering GF. It may not be 'optimal' but it fits more in with the concept of my character.
4. No gear through Zen. Playing basically what drops.
As I mentioned to beckylunatic earlier, glitches such as disconnects, power failures, etc. won't count as deaths. And I'd like to reiterate, I don't think there should be a game mechanism that punishes players for dying beyond what already exists. This is just a self-inflicted challenge.
If you're going to stick to the dog companion, you may want to consider keeping 2 dogs in your active companion slots, that way you can have one off training while the other is out and active.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
You also get Revive Sickness which prevents others reviving you for a set period of time. Not important in solo but in party dungeons can be a pain. No way to speed up recovery either just have to wait the 3m or be very careful.
Also if you die during a boss fight you are out of the fight until either remaining members are successful or wiped. Its pretty important reason to stay alive.
Looking for a guild for PvE Dungeons to suit AEST evenings
Anyway, up to level 14 and going through the Tower District quests at this point. The only thing of note so far is that I queued for the Blacklake Terror skirmish when I finished the Nest Egg quest in PE. So at that point I had just hit level 10. I ran around doing the small PE quests that followed (Domination, Professional) and then headed into the Tower district. I knocked out the Waukeegan Way quests which bumoed me up to level 11. At that point, I had been in the queue for nearly an hour. So, I decided to call it a night (this was about 8:30 PM Eastern US when I finished). I logged on early this morning and the first thing I did was requeue for the Blacklake Skirmish and started running through the first quests for Captain Janros. I didn't want to level past the skirmish, but 45 minutes later and the quests complete, I was still waiting. I just turned the quests in and bumped to level 12. Nearly two hours total in queue at two separate times and no skirmish. Frustrating.
Anyway, I just took it out on some orcs and will keep plugging away.
Conversely, in D&D your character is now trash. Now in a video game this is too much. But i consider things like res sickness or not being in the boss fight as nothing. It would create a more focused and fun experience imo as players would have alot more to lose. Creating better overall teamwork and quality gameplay.
More serious death penalties would also cut out the ridiculous "dying to progress" through dungeons thats so wildly popular and so wildly not fun at all.
It's also a good way to kill 90% of the casual playerbase.
This exactly. MMOs have steadily moved away from death penalties for years. There is nothing to gain by punishing your player base. Especially when, in most cases, dying is often due to outside forces, group failure, lag, ect, rather then player error.
It is far better to reward staying alive then to punish death. Champions has a system where you earn stars that grant bonus damage. The longer you live the more stars you earn. Death simply removes some from you. In that light this game is fairly harsh by Cryptic standards and maintains a system very similar to STO.
I doubt that. Besides D&D isnt a casual game. So there it is.
So no one can think outside the box? Just because other online games have trends, this has to have the same? D&D has always been special due to not following trends. Its a horrible idea to just say, o well everyone else does it. Not good.
In addition players held accountable makes for better players which makes for better game. Quality should always come first, yes?
Never was an issue in NWN2 or several other D&D video games. Cant count how many times ive died and lost 10% exp. Yet somehow managed 7+ 30 lvl toons. (max lvl in D&D) All it did was get all the players more involved. More thinking less button pushing . More thinking is always good imo.
Couldn't you "pause" NWN2 to issue commands and such? Couldn't you restore from a save in that game as well? We can do neither of those things here, so it's not a fair comparison. IIRC, you could also issue direct commands to your other party members, which helps a lot.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Wut? DnD has ALWAYS followed trends. From the the inception where it borrowed heavily from Tolkin. To the rules heavy 3 plus editions that where shaped in part as counters to competition from other systems like GURPs. To 4.0 that was inspired/influenced by video games. It has always been about trends. To say otherwise is just foolishness. They are a company like any other, following trends is simply good business.
But, again, why make it mandatory as opposed to an option? Yes, thinking is always good; but, in this context, so is variety and an ability to choose. Appeal to the broadest base by giving folks the chance to play the way they want to.
No. only the DM could pause the game. The game ran in real time and players had no way to stop it. Your referencing the single player variety. NWN2 was an online game as well as single player.
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Oh the Carnage
Not to the point of do it like this game or that game, its always been self contained, and took the lead in this department. Games used to get there Ps and Qs from D&D, not the other way around, at least thats my observation in 20 years of D&D gaming. To think fundamentals need to change because of what some other mmo is doing is sad to say the least imo.
4e was created for video games, this is not good. Because 4e is the most dumbed down version ever released. So the recent "trends" for D&D are all bad, very bad as its losing its originality.
Regardless, even in the awful 4e when your dead your just dead. Having more serious repercussions when dying for this game would only improve teamwork and gameplay as a whole imho, as it has in soooo many other D&D games. Video games or otherwise.
Of course, everything comes from somewhere, most fantasy based things arguabley all originate from Tolkien. As his driving force came from greek mythology..
Greek mythology to Tolkien, Tolkien to D&D, D&D to 4e/mmo???? This chain sounds like quality is being reduced at an alarming rate. Theres trend for ya.
When magic the gathering(WotC) bought out TSR.... Its only gotten worse. Ive seen marked quality reduction from that point moving forward.
Not on the BG server that i still frequent....
Don't queue for dungeon delves after level 25-ish. The Randomness of PUGs will end up getting you killed more than once on the journey to 60.
Well, that's again the multiplayer version. Most people are familiar with only the single player, which allows you to pause at any time.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Of course, point being in that game there is gold/xp loss when killed. And its not a problem at all. As it should be in this game to improve teamwork and gameplay, and add more thought. Thinking = good. Button pushing = not good.
Its an apt comparison because both multiplayer games run in the exact same real time. ( and cannot be paused)
So in short by not doing this it creates more button pushing, less thinking and less quality.
I'm also mostly familiar with the SP version, where you just reload, and the worst thing that would generally happen is you might not have saved in a while. Really-worst-case-scenario, you've managed your save games poorly and gotten yourself stuck.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
I've gotten through all the content up to 60 with no deaths on my first toon... Didn't even know what injury kits were for until I did an epic dungeon.
Now that I'm more experienced and a lot bolder... I tend to die more often... because I take greater risk... but my first TR I did not die until I ran a T2 dungeon and had no injury kits because I sold them all, not knowing what they were for
Every D&D game ive ever played in my life penalizes death.... its death. There should be substantial loss, so players make a honest attempt to avoid it.
Except in this game were dying is actual progress. lol. Lets run to the next save point and die so that we can progress more easily through the dungeon. Insane.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia