People who agree with BoP.

ott0maddux

I keep seeing posts from people that say they agree with BoP. They say it encourages people to play the game. I have now sat through 4 DD events unable to get in a dungeon because no one is playing them now. I can relate to this because i've run through the dungeons and the grind without the reward is very discouraging. and these dungeons are just grinding thru adds. So if this is encouraging people to play the dungeons how come I sit in a queue for four hours with no runs?

thesakari

I heard its hard to form a party instead of clicking the "Queue" button.

ott0maddux

thesakari wrote: »

I heard its hard to form a party instead of clicking the "Queue" button.

what? i don't understand your response.

joncans

Dungeons are broken. That's why no one is in them. All the 60's are farming the new skirmish or doing dailies while they fix drops.

chronomancer

The rampant game client crashing pretty much makes it impossible to finish an hour long dungeon.

ott0maddux

joncans wrote: »

Dungeons are broken. That's why no one is in them. All the 60's are farming the new skirmish or doing dailies while they fix drops.

that's quite an assumption, that they are fixing them. not "working as intended".

rabbinicus

I don't like any of the BoP or even the BoE mechanics. But since they want people to spend money, they're going to keep them.

aaronjf

Like I said before. I would LOVE to see a full group of minimally geared people that actually need the t2 drops run a t2 dungeon. W/o t2 gear, most pugs will fail to complete a t2 dungeon. I would like to see some of them try though.. Especially the more difficult ones. SP w/ the min gear score would be a lol, as would tots (unless the groups glitch pretty much every boss which is the only way it is run now days).

fathomful

No problem getting a dungeon at all either in DD or outside of it actually.

Average wait time is right around 3 minutes.

dkcandy

T1 Gear can completed T2 Dungeons but you need Rank 7+ Enchants with a Pet stacking more gear and Rank 7+ enchants.

The Gear itself is minor in comparison to enchants.

chronomancer

aaronjf wrote: »

Like I said before. I would LOVE to see a full group of minimally geared people that actually need the t2 drops run a t2 dungeon. W/o t2 gear, most pugs will fail to complete a t2 dungeon. I would like to see some of them try though.. Especially the more difficult ones. SP w/ the min gear score would be a lol, as would tots (unless the groups glitch pretty much every boss which is the only way it is run now days).

It makes no sense requiring T2 gear in order to do T2 dungeons. I think there's a failure here.

bioshrike

I agree w/ the BoP change partially - the problem is that, at this point, the cat has been let out of the bag. People were spoiled by being able to basically fully gear themselves upon reaching level 60, so the expectation of new level 60's is that they should be equally geared. Everyone seems to forget that *someone* had to run those dungeons initially, without T2 gear... people just have this expectation that dungeons should be a cakewalk, and a high GS is an easy crutch to fall back on...

adinosii

I do agree with the BoP in principle - just think it should have been in from the beginning....

As for queue times being long now, well...yes - fewer people are playing the lower-level areas - most people with lvl 60 chars are busy with Feywild, instead of playing their lower-level alts. Also, queue times depend a lot on your class...you will have a much shorter wait as a DC/GF than a TR/CW, for example.

macabrivs

Im one of the person who agree with BoP but only on DD chests, i hate the new BoP system introduced in Malabog castle... i did 2 runs and i already got the off hand and braces so theres no point for me to do Malabog beside the new seals farming which i dont even need to do all the 3 bosses... i can simply do the first boss and run it again. And no, i dont care about crafting the new weapon... I wont waste +2mil AD on assets to get that crappy weapon.

About people doing dungeons, actually was never more rewarding to make dungeons than it is now. If u dont have all ur gear DD is still a great way to grab the T1/T2 pieces u need, mostly now that u can choose which set u want. For those who already got all their gear, DD time event doesnt matter anymore so people can do the dungeons at anytime... If people are lucky to get a T2 drop from boss they now worth ALOT of AD on AH. Actually im making more AD than ever before.... some T2 items worth more than 1mil AD since the DD BoP.

I understand not many people are able to make T2 dungeons and i know how buggy is the queue system but ****... dont u guys even boother to look at "looking for group" chat ?? Theres a lot of people always looking for players to make dungeons and now not only on DD time.

I trully dont understand some people, first people whine how easy is to grab epics, now people whine about how hard they are to find.... This will never end

I must agree that the biggest flaw in this game is the loot system (and dungeon exploits but that can be fix) but when cryptic listen to us at foruns there will always be more people complaining about the new system and that my firends will never end, in here or on any other MMO.

mickwan

aaronjf wrote: »

Like I said before. I would LOVE to see a full group of minimally geared people that actually need the t2 drops run a t2 dungeon. W/o t2 gear, most pugs will fail to complete a t2 dungeon. I would like to see some of them try though.. Especially the more difficult ones. SP w/ the min gear score would be a lol, as would tots (unless the groups glitch pretty much every boss which is the only way it is run now days).

do explain how first piece of t2 exist?

bioshrike

aaronjf wrote: »

Like I said before. I would LOVE to see a full group of minimally geared people that actually need the t2 drops run a t2 dungeon. W/o t2 gear, most pugs will fail to complete a t2 dungeon. I would like to see some of them try though.. Especially the more difficult ones. SP w/ the min gear score would be a lol, as would tots (unless the groups glitch pretty much every boss which is the only way it is run now days).

I have zero doubt that a team of competent players w/ blues, unicorn, or T1 gear, (maybe even some greens still), would be able to complete most T2's w/o issue.

thorizden

bioshrike wrote: »

I have zero doubt that a team of competent players w/ blues, unicorn, or T1 gear, (maybe even some greens still), would be able to complete most T2's w/o issue.

Would you mind defining competent as a percentage of the player base and "most T2's" specifically? i.e. 50% of players could complete Spell Plague, Karrundax, and Frozen Heart in the described gear mix.

spudvicious

bioshrike wrote: »

I have zero doubt that a team of competent players w/ blues, unicorn, or T1 gear, (maybe even some greens still), would be able to complete most T2's w/o issue.

Now all we need to do is convince more people to become competent players. I'm sure there are quite a few, but scattered amongst all the people who do glitches and shortcuts, etc, I can't imagine it's easy to find the genuinely good ones. I have every confidence that a lot of the not-so-good people out there could become excellent, but there is so little encouragement for anyone to actually do so that those of us who like to enjoy the content the way it was meant are in the minority.

sasheria

The BoP is a tricky issue. Traditionally, end game items (T1 and higher) are usually BoP. NW changed that rule when they made Epic BoE. This is a good thing for some people and especially new players.

Why is it good?
Well, This promotes higher level to run the LOW level instance (like T1 stuff) over and over to get gear that they can sell to AH which new players can either RUN the instance or get T1 and still do mission (yea some people do that)

This produce two to three types of crowd.

The e-peen crowd HATES it because there is nothing to show off their hard work. Anyone with enough cash to buy Zen and convert to AD can buy gear off AH.

New players/AH crowd love it because they can buy certain gear they are missing and continue on with the content. AH crowd love it because it is a good source of AD (opinion varies)

Old school crowd (similar to e-peen) they don't like it cause it made the game more like P2W instead of hard work.

Some problem and solutions
Now making it BoP now is not such a good idea. There will be less people running older instance because there is no "profit" sure some guild WILL run it for their members, but not as many PuGs.
One idea is introduction of token system. Maybe you get one token per instance (or one per boss with boss tracking) per day or maybe more than one if the boss is harder. This can be BoP item instead. This can be even better (possible Tier 2.5) so the more you run the more token you have and you can buy special BoP that CANNOT be obtain via boxes, AH, AD store or Zen.

Maybe have T1 instance token (to special gear, pets, enchantments unique to that tier and possible 1.5 gear) T2 tokens (better gear like T2.5 that players can show off) The token shop could have anything from special mount SPECIFICALLY for token, bags expansion, outfits, armor, weapons, enchant that are all BoP.

That is the way it should have been done IMO.

spudvicious

sasheria wrote: »

Some problem and solutions
Now making it BoP now is not such a good idea. There will be less people running older instance because there is no "profit" sure some guild WILL run it for their members, but not as many PuGs.
One idea is introduction of token system. Maybe you get one token per instance (or one per boss with boss tracking) per day or maybe more than one if the boss is harder. This can be BoP item instead. This can be even better (possible Tier 2.5) so the more you run the more token you have and you can buy special BoP that CANNOT be obtain via boxes, AH, AD store or Zen.

Maybe have T1 instance token (to special gear, pets, enchantments unique to that tier and possible 1.5 gear) T2 tokens (better gear like T2.5 that players can show off) The token shop could have anything from special mount SPECIFICALLY for token, bags expansion, outfits, armor, weapons, enchant that are all BoP.

That is the way it should have been done IMO.

In general, I like the token system, and it was one of the few things that I liked about how certain other 900 lb gorilla MMOs have changed over the years, but if they do that here, then I think there needs to be a serious streamlining of all the currencies in game, because there is too much now and it needs to be reworked.

If/when Cryptic does that, though, I'd love a token system at least similar to what you describe.

ladysylvia

I agree with the BoP-Change. So you can't buy your wanted set anymore and make Team ups important.

bioshrike

thorizden wrote: »

Would you mind defining competent as a percentage of the player base and "most T2's" specifically? i.e. 50% of players could complete Spell Plague, Karrundax, and Frozen Heart in the described gear mix.

Remember, we're not talking about any kind of time constraint, and I'm not talking about the players using Zerg tactics (so minimal deaths). I'm also no taking into account then using exploits, nor are we including any glitches that the instance may have.

I would say all but CN could be run successfully w/ T1, blues, other purples, unicorn, and maybe 1-2 greens per player. A competent player, to me, is someone who plays their class to its strengths, as well as doing the obvious stuff like avoiding red circles, not aggroing other groups, lets the tank take the first hit, and so on. TBH, it's kinda hard to specifically quantify "competency" as it is in part defined by each specific encounter.

yerune

chronomancer wrote: »

It makes no sense requiring T2 gear in order to do T2 dungeons. I think there's a failure here.

I agree. With there being no wipe when the game went live, a lot of the beta-players had loads of gear already. They could daily farm the T2's and sell all the T1 and T2 gear. With more people buying the gear, more people were able to farm and sell their stuff, lowering prices and allowing more people to buy it.

What Cryptic seems to want now as progression is
- Blues from drops and questing
- T1 dungeons in order of difficulty, replacing the Blue gear and farming the enchantments or AD's needed to upgrade the T1 gear.
- T2 dungeons in order of difficulty, replacing the T1 gear and farming more enchantments or AD's to slot into the new gear.

Personally I'm fine with a progression like that, but I think the difficulty level of the dungeons, and specifically the endbosses, is skewed in relation to gearscore. I reckon the difficulty level of the bosses need to be tweaked, as well as the rewards, so it will only/mostly benefit the players who need to run them, but not so much for the people that can easily farm them.

But more easily I would rather see everything you get from "need" is bound and everything you get from "greed" isn't.

xelliz

They should have implemented BOP from the start, but lacked the foresight to do so. Now that have implemented a tried and true method of adding longevity to a game after people have been playing for months. What did they think the reaction would be?

diogene0

chronomancer wrote: »

It makes no sense requiring T2 gear in order to do T2 dungeons. I think there's a failure here.

It's just the lack of skill. The more you exploit the less you learn about the game. Good players doing legit runs only will be able to complete any T2 with the bare minimum GS without any issue. I've done this in pugs many times -i have 4 characters now, and i didn't do any catch up,and queued for T2 as soon as i had the GS. I see many people with barely 9k GS in T2s, that's definitely not an issue as long as they know how to play their characters.

seisem2

xelliz wrote: »

They should have implemented BOP from the start, but lacked the foresight to do so. Now that have implemented a tried and true method of adding longevity to a game after people have been playing for months. What did they think the reaction would be?

Yep I agree. The best loot (esp from DD chests) should be BOP. I can't understand why players want to AH everything instead of playing the game to earn the loot. Now, I can understand having to go to the AH to sell something you got 3 times in order to afford the piece that never dropped... happened with my T2 helm on my DC. However, now that the chest is fixed, you can gear your characters out without a problem. Just find a good guild/group of people to play with.

seisem2

diogene0 wrote: »

It's just the lack of skill. The more you exploit the less you learn about the game. Good players doing legit runs only will be able to complete any T2 with the bare minimum GS without any issue. I've done this in pugs many times -i have 4 characters now, and i didn't do any catch up,and queued for T2 as soon as i had the GS. I see many people with barely 9k GS in T2s, that's definitely not an issue as long as they know how to play their characters.

+1 Exactly

azlanfox

I agreed with BoP, but what annoys me a bit is the time it took to make this change. Now all of the "bling is a privilege, not a right" types are complaining, or being hypocritical because they profited off of it, and it is causing a lot of friction.

sasheria

spudvicious wrote: »

In general, I like the token system, and it was one of the few things that I liked about how certain other 900 lb gorilla MMOs have changed over the years, but if they do that here, then I think there needs to be a serious streamlining of all the currencies in game, because there is too much now and it needs to be reworked.

If/when Cryptic does that, though, I'd love a token system at least similar to what you describe.

True. but what to change?

There is the prayers. These have their unique of "logging in everyday" feature. So we would have to keep that. One is just log in and pray, the other is everyday get better "stuff" upto 7 days before reset

We have AD/Zen. That has to stay for the market.

Gold is general currency.

the seals probably "may" have to go away or combine. I am thinking of DCUO system where you can use one token system (or at least 2 system) for all your needs. one type can buy T1 or T2 gear (T2 cost a lot more) while another system for T3.

A combination could be one token for all BUT have a "drop" (personal drop if need be) that is BoT (bind on turn in) this could be armor piece, weapon piece or enchantment piece. It can be sold on AH but still need TOKEN to cash it in.

So lets say I run T1 instance. I got 4 token from on instance (say 1 per boss for simplicity) and I got 2 drops. One Chest and One hat. It is "generic" pieces that you can turn in. So when you turn in, you can CHOOSE what T1 you need. Say chest piece cost 4 token while hat may cost 3 token. This can be a "win win" for many people you still have the item sell on AH (to get the drop) but you can also turn in to what you need (thus to WEAR the T1 you would need to run a couple of time to get token to change it)

Now T2 pieces gotten from instance, but may need 20 token for chest (random number) but can earn those token from lower level instances OR high level BUT the piece will only be drop from Certain instances (like maybe chest piece/hat from one instance, and arm and leg from another or weapon from another. Or make it random in all T2 instance)

This is a radical change, but it will promote players to run ALL instances (to get token) and still have AH market (base pieces to turn in for T1/T2/T3 pieces)

Now T3 may need 40 tokens and chest piece but T3 will also yield higher Token per boss ratio than T1 boss

This could rid of seals and just use Token to BUY the pieces you need (like T0.5 to tide you over until you can actually get a T1 piece). Token can also be earn (say limit to 1-3 a day) from PvE (i.e. change some instance to a long run instances that could be a daily mission that is harder than normal dailies)

I think this system (while look good on "paper") could appease all classes of players. AH players will still have a market to sell "rough pieces" the e-peen players that you have to run instances (or a lot of dailies) to get their pieces, and new players which will get some elite players to run low level instances (like T3 gear player running T1) to stock up on tokens AND able to get pieces to sell on AH.

Now one other change might be in place that would be good with this system. Auto assign loot to players (random by the system) that way we don't get into issue need/greed. Another change would be that loot are assign RIGHT after the boss die regardless if they are in team or not (if you tag it, you are eligible for it. this will prevent player from kicking other players before the boss died) This include token system.

xmachina

We are rational beings, there will always be an excuse for any outcome. As for your question, the reason you sit in a queue for hours depends on many factors, but in general the queue simply could not match you with the required party make up.

daschla

I noticed that the gear I got out of the chest in pirates was bind on pickup.. Is this something that is supposed to happen? I didn't approve of it, at all.. and now, unless I level my wizards tailoring to 20, I won't be able to get the reinforced version of her gloves because suddenly everything costs 2 million AD on the AH...

I won't be buying anything, or spending a dime irl on this game until it's clear to me what is going on, and if this is how it's going to be, a lengthy 24k a day grind of diamonds...I won't be logging in, either.