There is absolutely zero justification for this and it is nothing short of amateur logic by amateur devs. I need a reply from a dev as soon as possible on this and I NEED to know the reasoning behind this ridiculous amount of damage while stealthed and whether or not they will drastically change this in the future.
Also, endless knockdowns by GF's is out of control, put a DR on that FFS.
Rogues need their stealth to survive in fights but they shouldn't be able to kill multiple squishier targets such as control wizards while in stealth purely by throwing knives which can't be dodged.
Im on my 12.2k rogue now(regular vorpal + rank 8s+ ancient dagger and stone): stealth CoS spam 12 daggers over 10 secs under stealth deals 18000-19000 total damage including crits. Non Stealth CoS spam 12 daggers over 10 secs deals 15000-14000 total damage. If you are eating all 12 daggers over the course of 10 seconds is like eating magic missile over 10 seconds. A wiser suggestion is to move away. Devs made CoS at 60 range not at 80 range like most CW/DC atwill/spells. I can only kill people only with CoS is by using lurker's. Even then you are complaining about the 1% with gears stomping the lower geared. If a CW is spamming Magic Missile from up top of point in pvp point 2 should you move away from the damage source? I know I would.
_________________________________________________________________________________ Rogue Fix Needed - I like this game and dont want it to fail
This game has been pretty balanced in PVP from what I have seen until recently. Rouges have been 2 shoting people and in some cases 1 shoting them. I have a well geared GWF With full PVP gear and PVP build. Over the last couple days I have been 2 shoted by rouges and that is insane. One of them took 80% of my HP on his opener from stealth.
I have played pvp oriented MMO's for about 7 years and placed in competitive arena in wow for the last 3 (I played quite 1.5 years ago). Please don't get on the same road as they did with class imbalance. This game is far better than wow from what I have seen so far and I would hate to see players rage quit your game do the simple fix that this could be. I don't ask that rouges be beaten to death with the nerf bat but there opener's need toned down in PVP a bit.
TY
Well geared = pvp gear + unknown sword. I guess i have high standards of having full set t2 gear as well geared. He is not mentioning what skills we used to one shot. I do 1 shot GF and GWFs with lashing, but i have full swash set rank 8 enchants, regular vorpal,and ancient daggers. But its barely killing GFs and Sent GWF hitting only 27k~. Regular Lashing blade + stealth only deals 15k on dc/trs and lower if on gwf/gf. i can only hit 18-17k with lashing + stealth on CWs. Or i can just play on my gwf and bravery sprint to the guy i want to kill kill him with Takedown, restoring and Flourish and oneshot him without a daily.
When fighting GWFs as a TR, if I come at you with Lurker's Assault active, I will win out 90% of the time. If I don't, the GWF will beat me to a quivering pulp 90% of the time. Depending on the flow of the match, it will usually take me a minute or two to recover my AP. Therefore, the GWF has an edge on me the majority of the time.*
Obviously, my experiences are not typical of every player, but I can assure you that most rogues will not 2-shot you except under very specific circumstances unless your gear and spec is extremely unsuited to PvP in.
As stated, I have an opposite situation of having a very hard time against GWF on my TR, but not once have I ever cried about it or used it as an excuse why the class should be nerfed. From everything I've seen, GWFs are a very dominating class in PvP. There is obviously something you're doing wrong if you're having such difficulties. Take your licks and learn from them or cry about your defeats and never improve.
*Should be noted I'm not even specced or geared for PvP at all. Not sure how much bearing that has on my comment, but I'm mentioning it anyway just in case.
Gwf IBS alone in a geared out destroyer spec can crit out 20k+, GWF perma prone combo itself will deal 20k+.
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So i like the fact that a TR can kill me by throwing dagger's at me... How is that even possible for a class to use 1 encounter power and kill someone from full health don"t know of any other class that can do it. Btw i was playing a CW when this happened, so maybe that skill needs to have the damage output in pvp adjusted just a thought.
By 'throwing daggers', I assume you mean the Cloud of Steel at-will.
So instead of the TR using 1 encounter power to kill you, the actual situation went a little like this:
The TR stood still and used 12 at-will strikes, killing the class with the weakest defense in the game, while you just stood there taking them. There is no need for skills to be changed to adjust for PvP, you just need to take a step back, forcing them to stop throwing daggers at you.
May I also mention that after they throw these daggers, they need to wait 36 seconds until they can do so again.
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For the non rogues who are on the line on the opinion of this test shard TR nerf. These are the most recent Rogue needs nerf threads in the thieves den. You be the judge. I have provided links for you to look at the full entire thread.
The devs could tone down damage dealt by CoS by 10% or can just cripple a PvE class for PvP in a Dungeons and Dragons game. I don't know how more ironic this can get.
Nevermore@meeggtoast 12.2 BiS TR Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
If you remove my LRN2Play posts then equally and fairly you should go through every rogues post and remove theirs as well.
Good grief man, you created an account called Rogue Nerf Batman and went through every rogue nerf thread on the board posting "learn2play." In most places just that and nothing more: "it's a learn2play issue." You did this over and over again on an account you apparently made just for that purpose, and you feel like you're being singled out? You singled yourself out.
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vierzweinullMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 31Arc User
I have been making post for a long time in the fight against Perma stealth rogues. My hard counter to win vs a perma stealth is /leave its been owning the all the time everytime. Soon as a perma stealth is there I leave the match instantly to give them no glory as a protest against the build and have been urging players to do the same as a counter.
I am really happy that this broken class is getting some fixes so players can PvP. Perma stealth isn't even fighting and really needed to be addressed this is a huge step in the right direction a lot of players will rejoice. Some other dmg and SE nerfs should be added but ill take this major one since it was the biggest issue and really needed a fix. PvP will be so much better now this game will be a lot better.
Yet another instance of PvP ruining PvE. The only reason they did this is for you PvPers and it RUINS my PvE fun. Cry somewhere else.
Yet another instance of PvP ruining PvE. The only reason they did this is for you PvPers and it RUINS my PvE fun. Cry somewhere else.
That's exactly what is happening, and this is why this isn't just a rogue issue, it should be a concern for all classes.
The PvPers are already calling for GWF to be nerfed next; here's to hoping that they actually get a PvP nerf instead of a PvE gimping. That's the real problem here you know, they aren't even nerfing the right things because they listened to people who don't even understand the class. Which should make people who play all classes shudder.
Hey cryptic! You officially lost me, my husband, 5 of my friends, and 13 people from my old guild in a different game, at the near mention of such a ridiculous and obviously not thought out nerf. I've been a d&d player since I was 8 and couldn't wait to play this game. I've followed it since it was announced. I've drawn hundreds of people's attention. To it. And now I feel the fool. I can tell your just a bunch of amateurs who cave into peer pressure and can't keep the integrity of your creation. GL to you. But I'll never play a cryptic game again.
Yet another instance of PvP ruining PvE. The only reason they did this is for you PvPers and it RUINS my PvE fun. Cry somewhere else.
Where does it say these nerfs were for PvP? Rogues need to be balanced in PvE as well. They are OP in both worlds and cryptic wants to fix them is all.
Where does it say these nerfs were for PvP? Rogues need to be balanced in PvE as well. They are OP in both worlds and cryptic wants to fix them is all.
You have been calling for rogues to be nerfed in PvP for a long time, and as soon as the nerfs hit the test shard you were all over place saying that rogues would finally be balanced in PvP. It wasn't until after rogues pointed out that the nerfs mainly affected PvE and not so much PvP that you started saying that it was intended to be a PvE nerf (where does it say these nerfs are for PvE?).
If you had really been in favor of a PvP nerf as you had said before, then you wouldn't have liked it when you realized that it affected PvE instead. But you just continued to say that the nerfs were great and switched to claiming that they were intended to be a PvE nerf instead.
The fact is, you jump on anything that affects rogues in a negative way, and keep changing your arguments; the only consistency is that you are very much in favor of anything that impacts rogues in a negative way. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with balance in PvP or PvE, you just seem to have something personal against people who play rogues.
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kingculexMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2013
meeggtoast,
You made a very good and logical post. I will be honest that not every TR has lvl 8 enchants, regular vorpal,and ancient daggers. I am working my way up to get that gear instead of paying for it. In my opinion something should be done about the cookie cutter permastealth rogues but the approach of Cryptic is the wrong way to do it. It is too heavy handed and will gut the class. What the people crying for nerfs and celebrating this TR nerf is that TRs can adapt to it and still be effective. I personally do not use Lurker's Assualt on my custom build. This means TRs will still be around to kill them in PVP. The trouble is it will hurt TRs more in PVE. The people crying for nerfs and celebrating this one also do not know that their class might be next to be nerfed. First it was DCs being nerfed and now its TRs. Who will be next??? http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/737/comments
Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
I believe they already nerf the stealth secretly... everytime i attack while stealthed, it takes a fraction of my stealth meter. I dont know if you notice it but pays a little more attention. I think they are testing it now to see if people will notice, if not they will implement that nerf legally.
I believe they already nerf the stealth secretly... everytime i attack while stealthed, it takes a fraction of my stealth meter. I dont know if you notice it but pays a little more attention. I think they are testing it now to see if people will notice, if not they will implement that nerf legally.
I just tested this out, didn't see it, are you sure you weren't taking damage?
Hey cryptic! You officially lost me, my husband, 5 of my friends, and 13 people from my old guild in a different game, at the near mention of such a ridiculous and obviously not thought out nerf. I've been a d&d player since I was 8 and couldn't wait to play this game. I've followed it since it was announced. I've drawn hundreds of people's attention. To it. And now I feel the fool. I can tell your just a bunch of amateurs who cave into peer pressure and can't keep the integrity of your creation. GL to you. But I'll never play a cryptic game again.
Can you elaborate ? Because they are balancing and fixing one class ? That seems pretty harsh.
You have been calling for rogues to be nerfed in PvP for a long time, and as soon as the nerfs hit the test shard you were all over place saying that rogues would finally be balanced in PvP. It wasn't until after rogues pointed out that the nerfs mainly affected PvE and not so much PvP that you started saying that it was intended to be a PvE nerf (where does it say these nerfs are for PvE?).
If you had really been in favor of a PvP nerf as you had said before, then you wouldn't have liked it when you realized that it affected PvE instead. But you just continued to say that the nerfs were great and switched to claiming that they were intended to be a PvE nerf instead.
The fact is, you jump on anything that affects rogues in a negative way, and keep changing your arguments; the only consistency is that you are very much in favor of anything that impacts rogues in a negative way. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with balance in PvP or PvE, you just seem to have something personal against people who play rogues.
I mainly PvP and I do it couple hours a day and love this game. I do solo PvP in PuG which is fun and do some premades with friends that also run rogues.
I of course want the rogue class to be fixed for PvP and these changes will help and is a step in the right direction and of course that affects the PvP side of things. I want PvP to become great in this game and I think it has tons of potential now that some balancing is going on. Now we just need more maps and a arena season with prizes.
I do think that the majority of changes in almost every MMO comes because of PvE and the bugged rogue was exploiting stealth and methods that other classes couldn't. I believe these changes will balance PvE as well and maybe after the new patch these balances and new content I will start to PvE more.
So its a win/win for Cryptic. They made PvPers happy and also made adjustments for hopefully a overall better PvE experience as well. Why not kill 2 birds with one stone. I feel that's what they did here and I can't wait for the patch.
I do think that the majority of changes in almost every MMO comes because of PvE and the bugged rogue was exploiting stealth and methods that other classes couldn't. I believe these changes will balance PvE as well and maybe after the new patch these balances and new content I will start to PvE more.
So its a win/win for Cryptic. They made PvPers happy and also made adjustments for hopefully a overall better PvE experience as well. Why not kill 2 birds with one stone. I feel that's what they did here and I can't wait for the patch.
On the PvE side regarding stealth whether it was a win for Cryptic depends on their intentions. If they intended to make permastealth impossible in PvE, they failed. If they wished to make it harder, they succeeded.
On the PvE side regarding stealth whether it was a win for Cryptic depends on their intentions. If they intended to make permastealth impossible in PvE, they failed. If they wished to make it harder, they succeeded.
I made this comment on the other thread someone suggested maybe they should just remove stealth
This is brilliant! Really wish rogues didn't have stealth in this game and they came up with a unique Rogue concept instead of just going with the lazy stealth. This is what happens they give it stealth say forget about it till its exploited then it has to be fixed. If some serious thought was put into building a Trickster Rogue and doing some unique tab abilities then the game could of been just a lil more unique. Don't know if they can go with such a major change now though.
I made this comment on the other thread someone suggested maybe they should just remove stealth
This is brilliant! Really wish rogues didn't have stealth in this game and they came up with a unique Rogue concept instead of just going with the lazy stealth. This is what happens they give it stealth say forget about it till its exploited then it has to be fixed. If some serious thought was put into building a Trickster Rogue and doing some unique tab abilities then the game could of been just a lil more unique. Don't know if they can go with such a major change now though.
Heh, I don't know how brilliant it is, but it sure would do away with stealth issues.
The problem with stealth from a design point of view is that it's really hard to find that happy place where it is strong enough to be of use but not so strong that it makes others to be of no use (other players in PvP, and monsters in PvE).
I'm sure the developers put stealth in the game they were wincing every step of the way, as they knew from the onset that this was almost certainly going to end out opening a huge can of worms.
I'm not sure what they can do to fix it so that it will sit at that place where it is useful but not overly so. I can say that I'm quite happy I'm not the one in charge of getting this system right.
Maybe they could find something to replace it with, and make adjustments to the feats related to stealth, but I'm not sure what would be best.
Perhaps they could have some sort of focus ability on the tab, that allows them to get extra crit for a certain amount of attacks before they have to recharge it, perhaps similar to what DCs have for divinity. One of the Paragon Paths could add an extra pip as the final feat, similar to what one of the DC paths do.
Or perhaps, when the tab ability is toggled on, it gives the stealth effect for the encounters, with each encounter use draining one pip from the bar, which will then have to be recharged once all pips are expended. That would work almost exactly like the DC charges do.
If hitting tab had no visual effects to others in PvP, that would allow the Rogue to be very tricky, as one would never know which form of the power was used until it was executed. At the same time, it would limit that unknown factor, by requiring the expense of points and rebuilding of them.
I can't wait for the patch.
It will be a great patch.
Maybe I will even reconsider playing my TR again, cause I have not played him for ages, it is so stupidly broken and OP that there is no fun at all. Since my other toon is a cleric, I honestly don't get how can the rogues be whining. If you think that rogue will be dead, then go on and reroll cleric. I bet you will switch back to your TR.
If you wanna know what a useless PVP/PVE class is, then remember the GWF pre-buff. The rogue will be nowhere near that state.
I actually don't use Tene's because they are cheating. My guild doesn't use them either and we all feel the same. I was in a pug and nuked his team so I guess just let off some steam. I did just respect some things that was interesting and the 26k crit on that CW made me giggle. Still can't hit as hard as a rogue though
I actually don't use Tene's because they are cheating. My guild doesn't use them either and we all feel the same. I was in a pug and nuked his team so I guess just let off some steam. I did just respect some things that was interesting and the 26k crit on that CW made me giggle. Still can't hit as hard as a rogue though
You keep using terms like "bugged," "exploited," and "cheating." The way you use those words would seem to indicate that you do not know what they mean. A tactic that you haven't yet learned to counter or don't like is not cheating, an exploit, or a bug. Game mechanics that work as intended are not exploits, cheats, or bugs - even if you don't like them. If you're hitting for 26K as a GF, then you are hitting harder than just about every single rogue who isn't attacking from stealth with lurker's assault up.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
and another day without a response....well, at least it proofs then abomb has absolutly no clue about the rogue class and is just trolling for trollings sake
I am in game all the time and if you want to send me a PM I will discuss anything with you. I try to answer any question the best I can and you feel the need to go around and around with my responses to twist what I say. The forums aren't a place for that its a place for discussion and information. If you have nothing to discuss or something that isn't going to be information then it just clogs up a conjested forum already. I rather not go back and forth just to have a mod have to work harder to clean it up. I honestly don't know what answer you are looking for because I have given many responses and you aren't happy.
I know you are my biggest fan and today I will honor you by saying just hit me up in game I don't want you to feel lonely like I am ignoring you because I do love you. Just trying to keep the discussion clean.
I can't wait for the patch.
It will be a great patch.
Maybe I will even reconsider playing my TR again, cause I have not played him for ages, it is so stupidly broken and OP that there is no fun at all. Since my other toon is a cleric, I honestly don't get how can the rogues be whining. If you think that rogue will be dead, then go on and reroll cleric. I bet you will switch back to your TR.
If you wanna know what a useless PVP/PVE class is, then remember the GWF pre-buff. The rogue will be nowhere near that state.
Yea my rogue is now 27lv from praying no desire to play her. Maybe after patch it might be more interesting and you make a lot of great points.
I don't either without knights challenge. There are many boost in the game. Just my boost in damage can also come back at me and its not from stealth. Hmmmm. Yea that OP on the Lurkers a good change indeed. I did a lot of theory crafting between Main and GF alts last night going to have some really nice burst now just have 1 pure burst class and one tank utility class its a lot of fun to explore. Just hope some day there are real tanks in this game because deep down I do like tanking.
My GF is not a tank he is a pure Dps and I expect him to dps with the best of them. If you are looking for my Main GF to tank you have the wrong class he is a Dps let the GWF tank ill off Tank. GWF better at pulling anyways they should give him all the agro because I don't want it just want to be a Dps machine and I think that's why they have a conquer build. I think I am going to try some different make ups with different kinds of GFs in a party see how that works. Might be a lot of fun.
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percefusMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You keep using terms like "bugged," "exploited," and "cheating." The way you use those words would seem to indicate that you do not know what they mean. A tactic that you haven't yet learned to counter or don't like is not cheating, an exploit, or a bug. Game mechanics that work as intended are not exploits, cheats, or bugs - even if you don't like them. If you're hitting for 26K as a GF, then you are hitting harder than just about every single rogue who isn't attacking from stealth with lurker's assault up.
QFT !
abombination247 ,The person that designed "Perma-stealth" did not use cheats to accomplish it, he used a min-max type build feated as such and then used current in-game powers which are given to the class. Min-Max builds are common in most if not all mmo's.
When you use word's like "bugged," "exploited," and "cheating." it makes your responses, inaccurate and makes you sound like you don't understand the class, feats or powers and makes it just another whine post thus weakening your credibility.... just saying.
I will also say I think every class needs to be looked at and changed but not to the point of taking a class feature and making it pretty useless without giving anything back to offset it. It is the worst nerf I have ever seen in any mmo because it not only weakens the class damage wise terribly but it makes the main feature (mechanic) of the class pretty useless!
A Proud Member Of THE 300 Guild - Tene's are nothing but P2W, Nerf or Remove please!
My GF is not a tank he is a pure Dps and I expect him to dps with the best of them. If you are looking for my Main GF to tank you have the wrong class he is a Dps let the GWF tank ill off Tank.
Uh, wow. You are the one that has the wrong class. You want your GF to be tops at DPS? Talk to us about balance some more, it's amusing.
I don't either without knights challenge. There are many boost in the game. Just my boost in damage can also come back at me and its not from stealth. Hmmmm. Yea that OP on the Lurkers a good change indeed. I did a lot of theory crafting between Main and GF alts last night going to have some really nice burst now just have 1 pure burst class and one tank utility class its a lot of fun to explore. Just hope some day there are real tanks in this game because deep down I do like tanking.
My GF is not a tank he is a pure Dps and I expect him to dps with the best of them. If you are looking for my Main GF to tank you have the wrong class he is a Dps let the GWF tank ill off Tank. GWF better at pulling anyways they should give him all the agro because I don't want it just want to be a Dps machine and I think that's why they have a conquer build. I think I am going to try some different make ups with different kinds of GFs in a party see how that works. Might be a lot of fun.
So your argument seems to boil down to "there are boosts in the game, but I don't like the rogue one."
See, you say that your tank is pure DPS. That's nice and all, but that's what the TR is - pure DPS. And these changes absolutely gut that. My GF is also specced out for DPS and does as much damage as "the best of them," but that doesn't change the essential nature of the class which is that of a Defender and not a Striker. If you're not familiar with those terms in context (and I wasn't until I looked at some 4th edition material), you can check them out here, what it boils down to is that GF's simply aren't as good at dealing damage as TR's. GF's are much better at surviving everything than a TR is, and can take hits that would one-shot most TR's. When you want to put out enough single-target damage to take down high end enemies, you want TR's and you don't want them being gutted the way the changes currently on the test server will do.
Taking away the number of daggers is a decrease in DPS, and an inconvenient one. But it isn't game breaking. The changes to stealth and lurker's assault are game breaking for TR's and is going to have a significant negative impact on all players.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
You keep using terms like "bugged," "exploited," and "cheating." The way you use those words would seem to indicate that you do not know what they mean. A tactic that you haven't yet learned to counter or don't like is not cheating, an exploit, or a bug. Game mechanics that work as intended are not exploits, cheats, or bugs - even if you don't like them. If you're hitting for 26K as a GF, then you are hitting harder than just about every single rogue who isn't attacking from stealth with lurker's assault up.
Ok first. I hit for 26k last night and was 1 time. There are tons of rogues that hit for 30k + not to mention the 40k + club. Lets explore working as intended. Tene's are not working as intended that's why they stealth nerfed them once already. Perma stealth isn't working as intended either so I consider both exploits. I don't use either. That's where I stand.
Uh, wow. You are the one that has the wrong class. You want your GF to be tops at DPS? Talk to us about balance some more, it's amusing.
Its a tree called Conquer build and its for Dps I take it to the extreme and focus on single target dps and Aoe on trash. Yes I expect to compete in dps with that build and right gear and feel its supposed to be competitive Dps build. I wish I could que for a Dungeon as Dps on my GF because that's really what he is.
Now we just need some buff's to the protector tree so we can have some real tanks in the game and hopefully a need for them with new and progressive content.
Ok first. I hit for 26k last night and was 1 time. There are tons of rogues that hit for 30k + not to mention the 40k + club. Lets explore working as intended. Tene's are not working as intended that's why they stealth nerfed them once already. Perma stealth isn't working as intended either so I consider both exploits. I don't use either. That's where I stand.
None of which changes the fact that you are using words that mean something rather different than your usage of them as "I don't like this." So please, don't misuse words that actually have a significant and functional contextual meaning.
Rogues that don't have stealth and LA active aren't going to break 20K on any target that has any degree of damage mitigation. Since Shocking Execution was nerfed, very few rogues even break 30K.
Stealth is the core mechanic of the TR class and is working as intended. The changes on the test server effectively remove that core mechanic without giving any benefit to offset it. So TR's become GF's, except without the shield, mitigation, or higher hitpoints. Glass cannon TR's aren't particularly helpful or beneficial, and will result in far more party wipes.
Again, that you consider something an exploit because you can't deal with it and don't like it doesn't make it an exploit. It certainly doesn't make it a bug, and it is definitely not cheating.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
So your argument seems to boil down to "there are boosts in the game, but I don't like the rogue one."
See, you say that your tank is pure DPS. That's nice and all, but that's what the TR is - pure DPS. And these changes absolutely gut that. My GF is also specced out for DPS and does as much damage as "the best of them," but that doesn't change the essential nature of the class which is that of a Defender and not a Striker. If you're not familiar with those terms in context (and I wasn't until I looked at some 4th edition material), you can check them out here, what it boils down to is that GF's simply aren't as good at dealing damage as TR's. GF's are much better at surviving everything than a TR is, and can take hits that would one-shot most TR's. When you want to put out enough single-target damage to take down high end enemies, you want TR's and you don't want them being gutted the way the changes currently on the test server will do.
Taking away the number of daggers is a decrease in DPS, and an inconvenient one. But it isn't game breaking. The changes to stealth and lurker's assault are game breaking for TR's and is going to have a significant negative impact on all players.
I see you points. I am not playing my GF as a tank and he isn't one though. When I go down the conquer tree then select best Dps skills and advoid anything that gives threat. Then go with pure arm pen and greater vorpal I am now a striker. I can't tank. Not with that extreme build so its not like I am getting best of both worlds or anything. I like being able to use my GF as a Dps class and I love how that is a option with the conquer tree and right gear. I just don't plan on tanking with my GF because I am trying to single target Dps on boss and top charts.
The reason why I don't like to respond to you is everytime I provide something you just say lies and are vague. So why sometimes I don't respond because I am trying to have discussion on the forum not get brought into a 1v1 convo that goes nowhere. Like I said you can PM me
Comments
TR Cloud of Steel + Stealth is absurd!
Community Mod's 2Cents on it.
Im on my 12.2k rogue now(regular vorpal + rank 8s+ ancient dagger and stone): stealth CoS spam 12 daggers over 10 secs under stealth deals 18000-19000 total damage including crits. Non Stealth CoS spam 12 daggers over 10 secs deals 15000-14000 total damage. If you are eating all 12 daggers over the course of 10 seconds is like eating magic missile over 10 seconds. A wiser suggestion is to move away. Devs made CoS at 60 range not at 80 range like most CW/DC atwill/spells. I can only kill people only with CoS is by using lurker's. Even then you are complaining about the 1% with gears stomping the lower geared. If a CW is spamming Magic Missile from up top of point in pvp point 2 should you move away from the damage source? I know I would.
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Rogue Fix Needed - I like this game and dont want it to fail
Well geared = pvp gear + unknown sword. I guess i have high standards of having full set t2 gear as well geared. He is not mentioning what skills we used to one shot. I do 1 shot GF and GWFs with lashing, but i have full swash set rank 8 enchants, regular vorpal,and ancient daggers. But its barely killing GFs and Sent GWF hitting only 27k~. Regular Lashing blade + stealth only deals 15k on dc/trs and lower if on gwf/gf. i can only hit 18-17k with lashing + stealth on CWs. Or i can just play on my gwf and bravery sprint to the guy i want to kill kill him with Takedown, restoring and Flourish and oneshot him without a daily.
A well worded response from a rogue player: ______________________________________
Rouges are Still very OP
On one note he did misspell rogue.... but another valid post:
Gwf IBS alone in a geared out destroyer spec can crit out 20k+, GWF perma prone combo itself will deal 20k+.
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rogue still op as
Well sounded non troll reply:
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For the non rogues who are on the line on the opinion of this test shard TR nerf. These are the most recent Rogue needs nerf threads in the thieves den. You be the judge. I have provided links for you to look at the full entire thread.
The devs could tone down damage dealt by CoS by 10% or can just cripple a PvE class for PvP in a Dungeons and Dragons game. I don't know how more ironic this can get.
Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF
Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
Server: Dragon
Stream: meeggtoast
Guide: Meeggtoast's Destroyer Dps Guide
Good grief man, you created an account called Rogue Nerf Batman and went through every rogue nerf thread on the board posting "learn2play." In most places just that and nothing more: "it's a learn2play issue." You did this over and over again on an account you apparently made just for that purpose, and you feel like you're being singled out? You singled yourself out.
Yet another instance of PvP ruining PvE. The only reason they did this is for you PvPers and it RUINS my PvE fun. Cry somewhere else.
That's exactly what is happening, and this is why this isn't just a rogue issue, it should be a concern for all classes.
The PvPers are already calling for GWF to be nerfed next; here's to hoping that they actually get a PvP nerf instead of a PvE gimping. That's the real problem here you know, they aren't even nerfing the right things because they listened to people who don't even understand the class. Which should make people who play all classes shudder.
Where does it say these nerfs were for PvP? Rogues need to be balanced in PvE as well. They are OP in both worlds and cryptic wants to fix them is all.
You have been calling for rogues to be nerfed in PvP for a long time, and as soon as the nerfs hit the test shard you were all over place saying that rogues would finally be balanced in PvP. It wasn't until after rogues pointed out that the nerfs mainly affected PvE and not so much PvP that you started saying that it was intended to be a PvE nerf (where does it say these nerfs are for PvE?).
If you had really been in favor of a PvP nerf as you had said before, then you wouldn't have liked it when you realized that it affected PvE instead. But you just continued to say that the nerfs were great and switched to claiming that they were intended to be a PvE nerf instead.
The fact is, you jump on anything that affects rogues in a negative way, and keep changing your arguments; the only consistency is that you are very much in favor of anything that impacts rogues in a negative way. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with balance in PvP or PvE, you just seem to have something personal against people who play rogues.
You made a very good and logical post. I will be honest that not every TR has lvl 8 enchants, regular vorpal,and ancient daggers. I am working my way up to get that gear instead of paying for it. In my opinion something should be done about the cookie cutter permastealth rogues but the approach of Cryptic is the wrong way to do it. It is too heavy handed and will gut the class. What the people crying for nerfs and celebrating this TR nerf is that TRs can adapt to it and still be effective. I personally do not use Lurker's Assualt on my custom build. This means TRs will still be around to kill them in PVP. The trouble is it will hurt TRs more in PVE. The people crying for nerfs and celebrating this one also do not know that their class might be next to be nerfed. First it was DCs being nerfed and now its TRs. Who will be next??? http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/737/comments
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
I just tested this out, didn't see it, are you sure you weren't taking damage?
Can you elaborate ? Because they are balancing and fixing one class ? That seems pretty harsh.
I mainly PvP and I do it couple hours a day and love this game. I do solo PvP in PuG which is fun and do some premades with friends that also run rogues.
I of course want the rogue class to be fixed for PvP and these changes will help and is a step in the right direction and of course that affects the PvP side of things. I want PvP to become great in this game and I think it has tons of potential now that some balancing is going on. Now we just need more maps and a arena season with prizes.
I do think that the majority of changes in almost every MMO comes because of PvE and the bugged rogue was exploiting stealth and methods that other classes couldn't. I believe these changes will balance PvE as well and maybe after the new patch these balances and new content I will start to PvE more.
So its a win/win for Cryptic. They made PvPers happy and also made adjustments for hopefully a overall better PvE experience as well. Why not kill 2 birds with one stone. I feel that's what they did here and I can't wait for the patch.
On the PvE side regarding stealth whether it was a win for Cryptic depends on their intentions. If they intended to make permastealth impossible in PvE, they failed. If they wished to make it harder, they succeeded.
I made this comment on the other thread someone suggested maybe they should just remove stealth
This is brilliant! Really wish rogues didn't have stealth in this game and they came up with a unique Rogue concept instead of just going with the lazy stealth. This is what happens they give it stealth say forget about it till its exploited then it has to be fixed. If some serious thought was put into building a Trickster Rogue and doing some unique tab abilities then the game could of been just a lil more unique. Don't know if they can go with such a major change now though.
Heh, I don't know how brilliant it is, but it sure would do away with stealth issues.
The problem with stealth from a design point of view is that it's really hard to find that happy place where it is strong enough to be of use but not so strong that it makes others to be of no use (other players in PvP, and monsters in PvE).
I'm sure the developers put stealth in the game they were wincing every step of the way, as they knew from the onset that this was almost certainly going to end out opening a huge can of worms.
I'm not sure what they can do to fix it so that it will sit at that place where it is useful but not overly so. I can say that I'm quite happy I'm not the one in charge of getting this system right.
Maybe they could find something to replace it with, and make adjustments to the feats related to stealth, but I'm not sure what would be best.
Perhaps they could have some sort of focus ability on the tab, that allows them to get extra crit for a certain amount of attacks before they have to recharge it, perhaps similar to what DCs have for divinity. One of the Paragon Paths could add an extra pip as the final feat, similar to what one of the DC paths do.
Or perhaps, when the tab ability is toggled on, it gives the stealth effect for the encounters, with each encounter use draining one pip from the bar, which will then have to be recharged once all pips are expended. That would work almost exactly like the DC charges do.
If hitting tab had no visual effects to others in PvP, that would allow the Rogue to be very tricky, as one would never know which form of the power was used until it was executed. At the same time, it would limit that unknown factor, by requiring the expense of points and rebuilding of them.
It will be a great patch.
Maybe I will even reconsider playing my TR again, cause I have not played him for ages, it is so stupidly broken and OP that there is no fun at all. Since my other toon is a cleric, I honestly don't get how can the rogues be whining. If you think that rogue will be dead, then go on and reroll cleric. I bet you will switch back to your TR.
If you wanna know what a useless PVP/PVE class is, then remember the GWF pre-buff. The rogue will be nowhere near that state.
- DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
You keep using terms like "bugged," "exploited," and "cheating." The way you use those words would seem to indicate that you do not know what they mean. A tactic that you haven't yet learned to counter or don't like is not cheating, an exploit, or a bug. Game mechanics that work as intended are not exploits, cheats, or bugs - even if you don't like them. If you're hitting for 26K as a GF, then you are hitting harder than just about every single rogue who isn't attacking from stealth with lurker's assault up.
I am in game all the time and if you want to send me a PM I will discuss anything with you. I try to answer any question the best I can and you feel the need to go around and around with my responses to twist what I say. The forums aren't a place for that its a place for discussion and information. If you have nothing to discuss or something that isn't going to be information then it just clogs up a conjested forum already. I rather not go back and forth just to have a mod have to work harder to clean it up. I honestly don't know what answer you are looking for because I have given many responses and you aren't happy.
I know you are my biggest fan and today I will honor you by saying just hit me up in game
Yea my rogue is now 27lv from praying no desire to play her. Maybe after patch it might be more interesting and you make a lot of great points.
I don't either without knights challenge. There are many boost in the game. Just my boost in damage can also come back at me and its not from stealth. Hmmmm. Yea that OP on the Lurkers a good change indeed. I did a lot of theory crafting between Main and GF alts last night going to have some really nice burst now just have 1 pure burst class and one tank utility class its a lot of fun to explore. Just hope some day there are real tanks in this game because deep down I do like tanking.
My GF is not a tank he is a pure Dps and I expect him to dps with the best of them. If you are looking for my Main GF to tank you have the wrong class he is a Dps let the GWF tank ill off Tank. GWF better at pulling anyways they should give him all the agro because I don't want it just want to be a Dps machine and I think that's why they have a conquer build. I think I am going to try some different make ups with different kinds of GFs in a party see how that works. Might be a lot of fun.
QFT !
abombination247 ,The person that designed "Perma-stealth" did not use cheats to accomplish it, he used a min-max type build feated as such and then used current in-game powers which are given to the class. Min-Max builds are common in most if not all mmo's.
When you use word's like "bugged," "exploited," and "cheating." it makes your responses, inaccurate and makes you sound like you don't understand the class, feats or powers and makes it just another whine post thus weakening your credibility.... just saying.
I will also say I think every class needs to be looked at and changed but not to the point of taking a class feature and making it pretty useless without giving anything back to offset it. It is the worst nerf I have ever seen in any mmo because it not only weakens the class damage wise terribly but it makes the main feature (mechanic) of the class pretty useless!
A Proud Member Of THE 300 Guild - Tene's are nothing but P2W, Nerf or Remove please!
Uh, wow. You are the one that has the wrong class. You want your GF to be tops at DPS? Talk to us about balance some more, it's amusing.
So your argument seems to boil down to "there are boosts in the game, but I don't like the rogue one."
See, you say that your tank is pure DPS. That's nice and all, but that's what the TR is - pure DPS. And these changes absolutely gut that. My GF is also specced out for DPS and does as much damage as "the best of them," but that doesn't change the essential nature of the class which is that of a Defender and not a Striker. If you're not familiar with those terms in context (and I wasn't until I looked at some 4th edition material), you can check them out here, what it boils down to is that GF's simply aren't as good at dealing damage as TR's. GF's are much better at surviving everything than a TR is, and can take hits that would one-shot most TR's. When you want to put out enough single-target damage to take down high end enemies, you want TR's and you don't want them being gutted the way the changes currently on the test server will do.
Taking away the number of daggers is a decrease in DPS, and an inconvenient one. But it isn't game breaking. The changes to stealth and lurker's assault are game breaking for TR's and is going to have a significant negative impact on all players.
Ok first. I hit for 26k last night and was 1 time. There are tons of rogues that hit for 30k + not to mention the 40k + club. Lets explore working as intended. Tene's are not working as intended that's why they stealth nerfed them once already. Perma stealth isn't working as intended either so I consider both exploits. I don't use either. That's where I stand.
Its a tree called Conquer build and its for Dps I take it to the extreme and focus on single target dps and Aoe on trash. Yes I expect to compete in dps with that build and right gear and feel its supposed to be competitive Dps build. I wish I could que for a Dungeon as Dps on my GF because that's really what he is.
Now we just need some buff's to the protector tree so we can have some real tanks in the game and hopefully a need for them with new and progressive content.
None of which changes the fact that you are using words that mean something rather different than your usage of them as "I don't like this." So please, don't misuse words that actually have a significant and functional contextual meaning.
Rogues that don't have stealth and LA active aren't going to break 20K on any target that has any degree of damage mitigation. Since Shocking Execution was nerfed, very few rogues even break 30K.
Stealth is the core mechanic of the TR class and is working as intended. The changes on the test server effectively remove that core mechanic without giving any benefit to offset it. So TR's become GF's, except without the shield, mitigation, or higher hitpoints. Glass cannon TR's aren't particularly helpful or beneficial, and will result in far more party wipes.
Again, that you consider something an exploit because you can't deal with it and don't like it doesn't make it an exploit. It certainly doesn't make it a bug, and it is definitely not cheating.
I see you points. I am not playing my GF as a tank and he isn't one though. When I go down the conquer tree then select best Dps skills and advoid anything that gives threat. Then go with pure arm pen and greater vorpal I am now a striker. I can't tank. Not with that extreme build so its not like I am getting best of both worlds or anything. I like being able to use my GF as a Dps class and I love how that is a option with the conquer tree and right gear. I just don't plan on tanking with my GF because I am trying to single target Dps on boss and top charts.
The reason why I don't like to respond to you is everytime I provide something you just say lies and are vague. So why sometimes I don't respond because I am trying to have discussion on the forum not get brought into a 1v1 convo that goes nowhere. Like I said you can PM me