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Venting about the daily dungeon/dungeon queue system
kierlakx
Member Posts: 117 Arc User
I'll start by saying that, given the skill levels I have seen on the people I get queued with when I try to do my daily dungeon, dread vault needs to be nerfed by around 45,921%. I'm talking about normal dread vault, mind you, not epic. Mobs need to have their AoE taken away, their single target damage nerfed by 6,000%, and their health reduced to instant death from a hard stare levels. The bosses need to not have any attacks, no ability to move, summon no adds, and somewhere between 1 and 7.5 health. And honestly, even of you make these changes, I'm not 100% sure I could push some of these players to a completion.
I wish I had kept more precise numbers, but I never expected it to get THIS bad. Between my GWF and my rogue, I have been in dread vault over fourty five times trying to complete my daily dungeon after hitting lvl 60. But I have only finished dread vault eight times. 8. (and of those 8, the boss only dropped loot 3 times because that bug is still not fixed.)
Now, one may be tempted to say that I'm the reason the dungeons always fail, because MMO nerds always want to try and be snarky, but most of the time I am top damage by varying, and sometimes huge, margins. I don't die to much of anything unless I am the last alive and get overwhelmed. I'm pretty good at getting resses off. I always try and get people to follow the path of least resistance on the last boss (left rear where the tentacles can't hit you), and try to get the people with KBs to toss mobs off the platform on the add phases. I explain as best I can, I do my job as best I can, and I am more patient than a particularly kind stone, because my queue times are over 50 minutes most of the time and I really want to get it done.
But none of that matters, because the average player in this game can't finish a normal dungeon that has no appreciable mechanics other than 'Stand ye not in the crimson upon the floor' and 'Slayeth all minions of the overlord'. It's just too hard for them. And because they can't finish it, that means I can't finish it, after multiple tries, multiple queues, and multiple hours wasted.
Now, the pat answer to complaints like this is usually "join a guild", but in the vast majority of cases, people in guilds are doing their own thing unless there is a real dungeon happening, that, you know, drops actual loot, and they can't be bothered to form an actual premade group for a normal instance with no loot of any worth (and most of the time no loot period). Even in WoW, we rarely ever made a full group to do heroics unless we were going to chain run them because someone needed a bunch of justice to buy a BoA item. 3k AD is not enough of an incentive to make a guild group for pretty much anyone, especially since you can only get it once a day.
What can be done to fix this? Well, the previously mentioned 'nerf into the dirt' method would work pretty well. If nothing can kill the group, then maybe even I could herd these inbred cats to a finish in DV. Another option would be not not nerf it at all, but to raise the AD reward from the daily to something more appropriate. Somewhere in the 7-9 million AD range, to symbolize winning the lottery, which is about how rare it is to finish it as it is now. That would also give incentive to people in guild to make a guild group for it. Another method would be instead of the daily giving massive amounts of AD, make normal DV drop T2 loot, that would get people in there. Whatever you choose, Cryptic, one (or all) of those needs to be done.
Now, for the queue system itself, I have to start off with a question: Why is there no way to refill empty slots when the inevitable "dis to hrd, im out bb" person bails on the group? Or when a genuine DC happens?
Why are non English speakers put in groups with English speakers? Yes, the need for complex tactics is pretty light in this game, but when someone is new to the dungeon you need to be able to explain things to them, and a lot of the time now, you simply can't.
Why do you have to leave the instance to be able to teleport to the group if you DC and can reconnect quickly? Why does it not simply put you where the group is automatically?
The queue system needs some work, and as fast as you can do it as well.
That's most of the main points on this general issue. Things need to change so that trying to do the daily dungeon is either fast and easy, or very rewarding experience, and not the current mind searingly frustrating experience that it is, where I want to lay down on the floor and just cry until I die crying because yet another group can't figure out the Mongolian calculus equation that is normal DV.
I wish I had kept more precise numbers, but I never expected it to get THIS bad. Between my GWF and my rogue, I have been in dread vault over fourty five times trying to complete my daily dungeon after hitting lvl 60. But I have only finished dread vault eight times. 8. (and of those 8, the boss only dropped loot 3 times because that bug is still not fixed.)
Now, one may be tempted to say that I'm the reason the dungeons always fail, because MMO nerds always want to try and be snarky, but most of the time I am top damage by varying, and sometimes huge, margins. I don't die to much of anything unless I am the last alive and get overwhelmed. I'm pretty good at getting resses off. I always try and get people to follow the path of least resistance on the last boss (left rear where the tentacles can't hit you), and try to get the people with KBs to toss mobs off the platform on the add phases. I explain as best I can, I do my job as best I can, and I am more patient than a particularly kind stone, because my queue times are over 50 minutes most of the time and I really want to get it done.
But none of that matters, because the average player in this game can't finish a normal dungeon that has no appreciable mechanics other than 'Stand ye not in the crimson upon the floor' and 'Slayeth all minions of the overlord'. It's just too hard for them. And because they can't finish it, that means I can't finish it, after multiple tries, multiple queues, and multiple hours wasted.
Now, the pat answer to complaints like this is usually "join a guild", but in the vast majority of cases, people in guilds are doing their own thing unless there is a real dungeon happening, that, you know, drops actual loot, and they can't be bothered to form an actual premade group for a normal instance with no loot of any worth (and most of the time no loot period). Even in WoW, we rarely ever made a full group to do heroics unless we were going to chain run them because someone needed a bunch of justice to buy a BoA item. 3k AD is not enough of an incentive to make a guild group for pretty much anyone, especially since you can only get it once a day.
What can be done to fix this? Well, the previously mentioned 'nerf into the dirt' method would work pretty well. If nothing can kill the group, then maybe even I could herd these inbred cats to a finish in DV. Another option would be not not nerf it at all, but to raise the AD reward from the daily to something more appropriate. Somewhere in the 7-9 million AD range, to symbolize winning the lottery, which is about how rare it is to finish it as it is now. That would also give incentive to people in guild to make a guild group for it. Another method would be instead of the daily giving massive amounts of AD, make normal DV drop T2 loot, that would get people in there. Whatever you choose, Cryptic, one (or all) of those needs to be done.
Now, for the queue system itself, I have to start off with a question: Why is there no way to refill empty slots when the inevitable "dis to hrd, im out bb" person bails on the group? Or when a genuine DC happens?
Why are non English speakers put in groups with English speakers? Yes, the need for complex tactics is pretty light in this game, but when someone is new to the dungeon you need to be able to explain things to them, and a lot of the time now, you simply can't.
Why do you have to leave the instance to be able to teleport to the group if you DC and can reconnect quickly? Why does it not simply put you where the group is automatically?
The queue system needs some work, and as fast as you can do it as well.
That's most of the main points on this general issue. Things need to change so that trying to do the daily dungeon is either fast and easy, or very rewarding experience, and not the current mind searingly frustrating experience that it is, where I want to lay down on the floor and just cry until I die crying because yet another group can't figure out the Mongolian calculus equation that is normal DV.
Post edited by kierlakx on
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It is pretty craptastic though that the daily never changes at lvl 60. Shut, even if they have to add an epic dungeon to change things up, it would rock. I haven't run this instance because wasting 1 hour for 3k ad just isn't worth it when I can run an epic delve (crypts, idris, tower) in 30-40 minutes and sell the loot that the delve chest has for 5k+ on a bad day not to mention the possibility of getting a piece of loot that I can actually use.
Of course, having normal DV as the daily dungeon is still tedious and boring. It should let us pick any L60 only dungeon.
Read the whole thing. You're just unlucky. Normal DV is fine as the endgame non-epic dungeon, just not fine as the daily task. If guildies don't want to help you out, wrong guild for you or wait until DD time.
Okay, if you say it isn't bad luck then fair enough.
So now, of course, the question becomes: what was the common factor in those 35 runs.......
You were already addressed in the OP, but you didn't actually read it so you didn't know.
The vast bulk of the people playing this game are very casual and rookie players. Though you are right about who is queuing up for it, and it seems I'll have to just stop trying to do it until some changes happen to make it either worthwhile for guild groups to do it or people in the queue system can consistently finish it.
Then you want a consistent 6k ADs rewards. It's still less AD/h than pvp, but it could be an option when we have some time between dd events in guilds.
That being said, the skill lvl in this game varies so greatly. If you run pugs, keep it to the face roll content that you could 3-4 man. If you run anything with any bit of complexity, run it with a pre-made group. The thing is, even w/ the complex fights, they are super easy with a decent group. I have been seeing it a lot more on my tank as I have leveled. Having major issues beating the Gray Wolf dungeon normal. It isn't that the dungeon is hard. I have watched a lot of strat videos and have seen it done without a cleric even.. The past groups I have had though can't get the guy below 50% because they can't avoid getting hit by the boss and can't seem to stay out of the red stuff. Does this mean the instance should be further nerfed? I don't think so.
I did finally get into a decent group in CN and we could have probably finished it if one person had not left.
I've been fine with the (non-Epic) DV with a over 50% success rate in PUGs.
If the groups YOU are in have a below 25% success rate and you absolutely insist it isn't bad luck, there aren't many other explanation except that you are doing something badly wrong or not doing something that needs to be done, if only failing to inform the other puggers what they should do.
End Game Balance Changes
Difficulty at level 55-60 has been mildly reduced for solo content, this affects:
Solo quest instances
Adventure Zone exteriors
Foundry quests
Difficulty at level 55-60 has been slightly reduced for team content, this affects:
Skirmishes
Regular (non-epic) dungeons
Epic dungeon difficulty has been VERY slightly decreased, but should remain largely the same
This should be a scaling reduction affecting level 60 the most and trailing down to level 55.
This is all the proof needed to show that you're no better than the people you're slamming for being incompetent. You've done the dungeon 35+ times and yet you've never noticed that there are cliffs at the boss? I've only done the dungeon once and it was obvious to me. :rolleyes:
You're illiterate. That's the only excuse. I said in the first post that I try to get people with KBs to knock adds off on the add phases.
Again, this was already covered. I'm outperforming 90% of the people I get queued with for the job my two classes have, damage, and on a few occasions on my GWF, I have outperformed the tank in holding aggro and not dying while not being sentinal spec. I try to explain things as simply as possible, but either language barriers or what can only be willful idiocy keeps people from following the most basic of instructions. I have, with some groups, given up on trying to get the CW to kick adds off the side, and instead struggled with simply getting the ranged to not STAND UNDER THE TENTACLE AND GET BEATEN TO DEATH.
I can't make most of these people do even basic things. On the rare occasions I have gotten some new people but they actually listened, we crushed it easy, and they were making comments like "dis to easy lol, it like free AD lol". The dungeon IS EASY. No one in the group has to actually be any good to beat DV as long as they do what they are supposed to. They don't even have to do it very well, they just have to do it. But most of the people in that queue can't do even that. "Follow me and stand where I stand" NOPE. TOO COMPLEX. MAKES MORE SENSE TO HUG THE TENTACLE ON EVERY ATTEMPT.
Rising Star, fun friendly, community focused guild on mindflayer. We strive to help each other and enjoy the game together. Talk to me for info, or feel free to check and join our community at risingstarneverwinter.enjin.com
Sorry I didn't read that long-winded whinefest that was the OP. Try not to contradict yourself too much in your other posts, kid.
2)You should consider letting us make groups of 10 players instead of 5. Most of the dungeons are hard enough as it is that you wouldn't have to change them too much for them to be challenging for a 10 player group. It would provide us with better variety in the groups and would help the Great weapon fighter find some usefulness in the groups. If you don't want to do it for all the dungeon delves please let us at least do it for Castle Never. It takes a minimum of 3 hours to complete the dungeon and most groups will wipe on the final boss.
3)You should take away some mobs on the way to the bosses in Castle Never because really they are just waste of time. They don't good loot and they serve no real purpose aside from just slowing us down. The dungeon is already long as it is, you don't have to make it painful and boring too.
4)Change the queue system, it is a bad system to set up groups. If you don't/can't change it, please set up some way for us to see the groups who are looking for people and what the groups look like. It's a pain to set up a group in the same channel as the one we use for trading because you can't really see what you get until you actually join the group or get invited to it.
I guess that's it for now.
Where are all these nice people who are willing to give instructions that yall are talking about? O_o
These responses are getting pretty funny. I've seen the exact same wording now one three different threads.
Just give it a rest. There are 5 people working on the NW project at PW. The primary focus is on extracting as much money from the dwindling base of players as possible. This division was never intended to become a cash cow, it is on the books as a supplemental revenue stream with an per-determined End Of Life. Enjoy the game for what it is and not what you want it to be or even for what it could be. Take a few minutes to consider what your money is buying before dropping any coin. I'm not saying don't buy stuff from the Zen Market, just make sure you understand what you're getting for your money.
If I understand correctly, no one from Perfect World Entertainment is working on Neverwinter. After all, that's not what PWE does. They administrate games, that is, they manage user accounts and monetary transactions. All game development is handled by the developer, in this case, Cryptic Studios. I also disagree that there's a "predetermined end of life" (note the word is not "per-determined" but "predetermined"), and I disagree that there's a dwindling number of players. In fact, your post sounds much like the doom and gloom I've heard on numerous occasions regarding a plethora of topics.
So unless you can link to company data that actually proves that (A) the cash influx or player-base is, in fact, "dwindling", (B) there are only five people working on the game (which is utterly laughable, especially given that I can easily count 20 blue names), or (C) the EOL is already determined, I'm afraid I'm going to have to give your post about as much credence as the idea that little blue gnomes construct reality a half-second ahead of when I experience it.
In other words, [citation needed].
I think you two really need to realize where the communication problem was.
When Kierlakx said "a dungeon with no mechanics and cliffs" he meant "with (no mechanics) and (cliffs)".
When cinj216 replied he most probably read "with no (mechanics and cliffs)".
No need to tell one is illiterate or the other contradicts too much, it was just a misunderstanding (I misunderstood that too but having read the OP I tought Kierlakx was just being sarcastic, turns out from a later comment he was not).
They create far too many sloppy situations where there's no good option or no options at all. So the only really good strategies for this dungeon involve exploiting its weak design elements, using ledges and areas that the AI can't/won't go to. Which is just another example of how badly designed it is.
Okay, Panic.