I've been playing this game for quite some time now and I personally stray away from taking shortcuts. (I'm a GF, so I normally lead groups in pulls and progressing through a dungeon.) I also think that sometimes attempting the shortcuts actually take more time and add frustration to the group. For example, there are shortcuts that people have to jump just right to pull off a shortcut. I don't see the point in having to clear everything in a dungeon though, being able to hug a wall and avoid a pathing mob should be part of the game. If something is in the corner and you can walk away from it, why don't you? For example, in Spellplague there is a hulk in the beginning of the instance by a spawning pit that you can completely avoid. Developers don't expect you to have to clear everything in order to finish a dungeon.
This is exactly how I see it. Too often in PUGs you may have only one or two players that are in the know about shortcuts and they will run on ahead expecting everyone else to follow suit and invariably get themselves or the party killed. It would have been far easier and quicker just to fight through the mobs they were trying to avoid.
I've been in boss fights, which go smoothly when no one tried to exploit, turn into hazardous multiple wipes because those same one or two players insist on perching tactics or similar. In a way I feel sad for those types of players, because instead of improving their play-style along with their gear, they continue using cheats they fell into using to beat the dungeon when their gear score was 2k lower.
At the same time, the idea that we should kill every monster in a dungeon is ludicrous. Do none of you use your Cloak of Invisibility? (Cryptic gave it us for a reason) or stay wide of enemy groups where you can? If not then all I can say is, what silly, ineffectual "heroes" you are
And yet, when all 5 players know the shortcut, it makes the dungeon shorter and easier. Seeing as its a shortcut. Don't blame the shortcut when someone takes it without the rest of their party, blame the player! Same for boss fights.
Bring up the Cloak of Invisibility? With its 50 minute cooldown? You can use it exactly once during delve hour. There's the real problem. By giving a time limit when you can guarantee yourself loot, is all the reason most people need to look for shortcuts. If you want to do runs without shortcuts, do them outside of delve hour.
They should cut down the length of dungeon runs to between 45-60 minutes. 2 hours on a T2 run is not fun.
2 hour dungeon runs that cost me over a gold in injury kits and only pay me back that gold in a drop have broken my spirit and desire to even mess with them anymore.
I don't ever remember while playing D&D any DM requiring the players to kill absolutely every monster, and when I myself was DM I often rewarded the kind of thinking that lead to situations where there were fewer fights or any other innovative solutions my players would come up with.
I think it's absurd that currently one of the most effective tactics for many situations involves intentional death, but I have a hard time seeing that as a significant exploit no matter how I look at it.
I consider exploits the kind of 'tactics' that put players out of harm's way with ZERO risk of death while allowing them all of the big reward of treasure and exp. This isn't what is happening. Players are killing themselves, which has its own built in penalties already. They are killing themselves to get to the challenging parts of the game. Silly as hell, but hardly a true 'exploit' as the term has come to mean.
Remember, your DM wouldn't punish you for finding solutions besides fighting, and this supposed role playing game offers NOTHING else in the way of diplomacy (talking your way through a problem) or stealth (sneaking/hiding your way through a problem). Don't come down on players for not wanting to spend all of their time slashing up meaningless minions.
And don't you dare even think about holding back treasure or exp until every life form has been extinguished - that is hell and gone from D&D flavor, or any other real role playing game...
All I heard was....lets make running the dungeon take longer than needed.
Sorry you don't understand that small point but after 30 - 100 DD runs you might...just might understand why folks skip trash. Until then, you complaining about it shows that you are still a green horn.
This person has a problem...and that is being lazy, you choose to run a dungeon 100 times, don't skip the content. Why would you run a dungeon 100 times, let alone twice when nothing changes? Pure foolishness, and telling of the type of gamers and developers we have today. There is no reason to run a dungeon more than once to experience it and be done with it.
The mobs do not change, the path doesn't change, there is no thinking involved, the boss fights never change so why run these dungeons? Because of the gear? That's a laugh. I have run the regular dungeons one time, have my gs at 10.2 bought one T2 piece off the AH. There is no reason to run the epic dungeons, more HP bosses and more mobs isn't a changed dungeon. Now I wait for content and move on with my life until that happens or it doesn't.
It is people like this that support the developers and lazy programming. If more people refused to reward the developers for lazy , automated programming we would have ever changing dungeons that would actually be worth running multiple times because things changed.
People running dungeons 2 or 3 times is bad enough, running them 50-100 times like this person has is just plain stupid and labels them farmers. Think running an epic dungeon 30-100 times makes you "Hardcore?" , Nope, just foolish.
There is no worse feeling in the world than the moment during an argument you realize you are wrong.
Well if you want to log in and play for 20 mins, that's what skirmishes and cloak tower are for. This may not be a popular assertion as well, but the point of playing a MMO is enjoying the gameplay, not enjoying the rewards. I'm ok with people not enjoying the gameplay and willing to get rewards only but why are they allowed to force others to rush content through exploits?
No one can force you to do anything.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
nexdineMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2013
Just as long as the big bugs get fixed. The obvious shortcuts that are broken would be good, and a huge one is the cheat mechanic where you can run through everything to get to the next fire, then die at that fire. That fire shouldn't register as a respawn point until after you've been near it for several seconds and not be in combat.
I don't think you'd have to clear everything. But it should be made impossible to shortcut and cheat-die, to begin with. There's also the ledge-tossing one-shot-kills that break a lot.
the problem with that though is that you cant shortcut it
if w ecould put that into a potion slot, i bet that it would be used more often but as it is now its just **** easy to forget that its even there sinceyou dont see it all the time
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
edited July 2013
Skirting around mobs to avoid a fight is fine. Glitching through walls or making death runs for campfires are cheesy and exploitative tactics that need to be removed. Knocking mobs off ledges is perfectly fine.
I can understand not wanting to slog through every single group to get what may be mediocre rewards. For the devs' part, I think they should adjust mob placement and numbers a bit to make fights more engaging and challenging in a "real" sense, instead of it just being a matter of plowing your way through large numbers of enemies.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
True. Unpopular does not mean 100% decided against.
What evidence do you have that "Spending more time then is necessary is always going to be unpopular."
Seems to me, there is no strong evidence or data to make such a claim.
What is this harassment which you speak of? stop harassing players? Who is harassing players and how?
Based on my experiences, in most dungeons, it is possible to form a party, according to my desires.
But my experiences with Fardelver Crypt have been the worst so far, of any dungeon, which is why I specificially mention it. It is not easy to find a non-speed run group for that dungeon. If it was easy, I would not be complaining about it.
Since you enjoy defeating challenges, yet think dungeon "trash" is unchallenging, then why play this game?
What is challenging about Neverwinter?
Is it really alien thinking to maximize your effort? If I have the goal "make enough money to remove my GPF enchant" am I going to look for ways to get the most AD per hour or the least? If I have the goal "have a nice relaxing dungeon delve" am I going to rush through a dungeon? People set goals and tackle them with a degree of perceived or real efficiency. This thread is (presumably) coming from a person who queues solo and gets mad because not everyone in their group plays in the same way. It's an incredibly silly argument. Just play with like minded people and leave other people alone.
Fardelver is an interesting case. One of the most easily exploited map geometries in NW. It is also possible to just run from zone in to the door and aoe the entire zone down. You can do a completely legit 5 minute clear with a decent group. Hell, you had to get a guild for GGrym, why can't you just go do it the "right" way with them?
The dungeon trash is not any kind of challenge. I move out of red circles, rotate some abilities, and the mobs die. They give no exp and no meaningful loot. There is no real fear of death. The mobs are there to eat up time. It is not the player's fault that there are frequent gaps inbetween mob agro radius and map walls that let a sneaky player just walk right past entire groups. Why do you feel compelled to kill those things every time you clear a dungeon?
As far as "harassment" goes, that is directed at people who think walking past mobs is cheating or exploiting. Either it's intended or the map designers were lazy. Take your pick.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
Is it so hard to let the people who want fast runs do the dungeons fast...
...and those who want slow (eventually tedious) runs should be able to run them slow???
I know, how about you don't tell me how I SHOULD be playing, and I will promise not to do the same to you.
Find friends that play the way you play. Run content with those friends. Everyone stays out of everyone else's way, and nobody gets insulted or gets booted from groups etc.
No, instead lets just come to the forums and raise hell and insult everyone who doesn't like to play the way I do. Yeah that is so much more rewarding.
The OP's idea is one of those that sounds good in theory but doesn't translate to reality quite so well , lets take epic idris as an example , a super easy epic I think most would agree but that dungeon has maybe 3 or more different routes through it , are you seriously saying that each and every mob from all the different routes should be cleared to get the chest? as well as that what if just one mob glitches into a void or wall? nobody gets loot = unhappy players , making various intelligently thought out objectives would be a better idea imho.
If they did that, I'd go nuts. Think about the extra area in Spider Queen. There is no reason to go in there. I went in a long time ago, and forgot about it.
If they make the dungeons fun, instead of a chore that you have to speed through, people might take their time and run them more often. As it is now, DD offers bad loot much of the time, and the dungeons can be too hard to complete in a pug. Speeding through during DD fixes that.
TL : DR? Then don't waste my time responding.
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
Is it so hard to let the people who want fast runs do the dungeons fast...
...and those who want slow (eventually tedious) runs should be able to run them slow???
I know, how about you don't tell me how I SHOULD be playing, and I will promise not to do the same to you.
Find friends that play the way you play. Run content with those friends. Everyone stays out of everyone else's way, and nobody gets insulted or gets booted from groups etc.
No, instead lets just come to the forums and raise hell and insult everyone who doesn't like to play the way I do. Yeah that is so much more rewarding.
Except that, y'know, some of the "tricks" that people use for these fast runs are blatantly cheating. So, yeah... that type of behavior isn't and shouldn't be considered valid. I'm all for using legitimate tactics for a more expedient run, but not when purposely dying becomes the go-to way of winning, or when using holes in the map or glitches in the way climbing works, etc.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Skirting around mobs to avoid a fight is fine. Glitching through walls or making death runs for campfires are cheesy and exploitative tactics that need to be removed. Knocking mobs off ledges is perfectly fine.
This is more or less how I see it. I do think dying to get to the next fire IS cheesy and if they fixed it I wouldn't cry.
As it is now at least 1 out of 3 times when a group i am in is trying to take this kind of short cut, this process ends up making things take longer; if even one of the players doesn't know where to run and is too slow, or someone doesn't realize the party is running through and not fighting or somebody simply dies too soon.
An exploit it is NOT. It would be an exploit if I was triggering or manipulating a buggy mechanic that let me accomplish something I would not be able to do otherwise. Frankly this is 'trash' - filler & imagination-free content care of lazy designers, NOT some insurmountable and crucial challenge that we are tricking our way around.
I can understand not wanting to slog through every single group to get what may be mediocre rewards. For the devs' part, I think they should adjust mob placement and numbers a bit to make fights more engaging and challenging in a "real" sense, instead of it just being a matter of plowing your way through large numbers of enemies.
You are right on here. If it is super important for the players to walk every inch of the preset, choice-free, linear path through the dungeon then for god's sake make the players WANT to stay on that linear path by making encounters that are unique and interesting - make the content engaging and FUN TO PLAY.
Make the content so that nobody wants to miss any of it.
Make the journey more interesting than the destination.
This is the designer's responsibility, and failing in it leads to dying to the next camp fire and finding ways of skipping the dry parts.
If you don't enjoy it well I won't suggest the obvious option then.
Its not the reward. Its the journey
Get a job for say $9 an hour. Make sure you have to drive to and from that job three hours a day. Pay for gas, wear on your car, to a job that overwhelms you with work, for that $9. Nothing changes besides something going wrong. There is a very, very small chance that you will get a bonus at the end of the year, that ends up being 1/10th of what you deserve. Sometimes, you don't get paid because you didn't do a good enough job, or didn't get lucky enough, or have the right coworkers on the job. See how you feel after that. That's how I look at it.
The dungeon trash is not any kind of challenge. I move out of red circles, rotate some abilities, and the mobs die. They give no exp and no meaningful loot. There is no real fear of death. The mobs are there to eat up time. It is not the player's fault that there are frequent gaps inbetween mob agro radius and map walls that let a sneaky player just walk right past entire groups. Why do you feel compelled to kill those things every time you clear a dungeon?
because, unlike you, I actually enjoy combat in Neverwinter. Neverwinter is very combat oriented, hack-n-slash combat. If I wanted to avoid combat, I would play Thief or Elder Scrolls or something else, but certainly not Neverwinter.
no fear of death? amazing. You should try epic dungeons solo or with one or two other players, since the combat is so easy. mobs eat up time? The whole game "eats" up time. LOL.
Again, let me ask you, what is challenging about Neverwinter? Why do you play this game?
Seems to me, this game is boring for you. Too easy, eats up time. Why don't you play a game which is more challenging, and thus would be more enjoyable to you?
because, unlike you, I actually enjoy combat in Neverwinter. Neverwinter is very combat oriented, hack-n-slash combat. If I wanted to avoid combat, I would play Thief or Elder Scrolls or other similiar, certainly not Neverwinter.
no fear of death? amazing. You should try epic dungeons solo or with one or two other players, since the combat is too easy for you. mobs eat up time? The whole game "eats" up time. LOL.
Again, let me ask you, what is challenging about Neverwinter? Why do you play this game?
Seems to me, this game is boring for you. Too easy, eats up time. Why don't you play a game which is more challenging, and thus would be more enjoyable to you?
I enjoy NW combat. I've done my time helping people through t1/t2s on their first clears. Sometimes I just need AD for some project or another though and I cannot be bothered killing every ******* giant or hulk.
I enjoy figuring out bosses in games My main issue with games is bothering with repeat kills. At this point I'm grinding out some enchantments and spare situational gearsets in case NW encounter design really does mature like they swear it will in the devblog.
Looking forward to Module 1. Really hoping Malabog Castle is being made now and is not some remnant of last years development period with walls like cheesecloth and adds like FH
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
If there were no mobs or adds in this game, my CW could solo kill any boss in NW, easy.
I would simply use DoT or AoE spell, while avoiding his attacks, and the boss will slowly die.
Mobs and adds are what make combat challenging in NW.
Of course, they could make complex boss mechanics which include riddles/puzzles, or obstacle course, or mini-game or something else, but that's not Neverwinter. Neverwinter is third person hack-n-slash combat. Embrace it.
Except that, y'know, some of the "tricks" that people use for these fast runs are blatantly cheating. So, yeah... that type of behavior isn't and shouldn't be considered valid. I'm all for using legitimate tactics for a more expedient run, but not when purposely dying becomes the go-to way of winning, or when using holes in the map or glitches in the way climbing works, etc.
It sounds here like you should just stay in groups that choose not to die intentionally.
The people who choose to move forward by dying aren't hurting you at all if you are not playing with them. To say they are is once again trying to tell people that they SHOULD play just the way you like to play, and they are wrong for wanting a different experience.
Skipping tedious content that is not an important story or plot element by intentionally dying is a simple choice. It is not an evil choice and it is not immoral. It is a response to the developer's choice to put FILLER in their dungeon instead of FUN or CHALLENGE. If they would just CHOOSE to mix it up a bit and put some of their imagination (which is their job) into adding variety and think of simple ways of motivating players into staying on their very very linear path (...this is classic bad DM'ing btw, linear story with no options, no choices) then players wouldn't be spitting their laziness right back at them by skipping it.
Back to my point: The solution is simply to play the way you want to, if what other players are doing in this specific case doesn't effect you (because ideally you wont be playing with them) but bothers you anyway, that is your little issue to work through not everyone else's.
If there were no mobs or adds in this game, my CW could solo kill any boss in NW, easy.
I would simply use DoT or AoE spell, while avoiding his attacks, and the boss will slowly die.
Mobs and adds are what make combat challenging in NW.
Of course, they could make complex boss mechanics which include riddles, or obstacle course, or mini-game or something else, but that's not Neverwinter. Neverwinter is third person hack-n-slash combat. Embrace it.
Trash mobs and boss adds are two different things. Why are you talking about boss adds now?
4 giants in a room that you can pull at once and kite without fear or avoid altogether by not killing a brute are not challenges to experienced groups. It's even there in the updating dungeon quest. The quest tells me "defeat Hrmnir" it doesn't say "exterminate the ice troll race".
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
If there were no mobs or adds in this game, my CW could solo kill any boss in NW, easy.
I would simply use DoT or AoE spell, while avoiding his attacks, and the boss will slowly die.
Mobs and adds are what make combat challenging in NW.
Of course, they could make complex boss mechanics which include riddles/puzzles, or obstacle course, or mini-game or something else, but that's not Neverwinter. Neverwinter is third person hack-n-slash combat. Embrace it.
The thing is, there is a way you can do adds without them becoming the main boss mechanic. For instance, let's say you were fighting a boss in a cave, and there were targetable boulders near certain openings that enemies came through - you could attack those boulders to temporarily seal those doors, but at the same time the enemies will try to dig their way through them, too.
The issue I, (and I'm sure some other people), have, is how adds just materialize in , and how many of them are higher tier enemies with their own "red circle" attacks, which just inundate your team needlessly.
Maybe one way to address this would be to have points throughout the map, leading up to the boss, which you could take out/disable, to affect the circumstances of the final boss fight - like destroying a goblin barracks in the dungeon would reduce the number or tier of the adds...
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Trash mobs and boss adds are two different things. Why are you talking about boss adds now?
4 giants in a room that you can pull at once and kite without fear or avoid altogether by not killing a brute are not challenges to experienced groups. It's even there in the updating dungeon quest. The quest tells me "defeat Hrmnir" it doesn't say "exterminate the ice troll race".
The adds are the same monsters which are also found in "trash mobs".
Therefore, the adds are also "trash mobs".
What difference does it make if I kill some trash mob, with a boss, or without a boss?
Trash mobs (with or without a boss) drop cheap loot, while bosses drop better loot.
Hence, the word "trash" is used to describe such mobs.
It sounds here like you should just stay in groups that choose not to die intentionally.
The people who choose to move forward by dying aren't hurting you at all if you are not playing with them. To say they are is once again trying to tell people that they SHOULD play just the way you like to play, and they are wrong for wanting a different experience.
Skipping tedious content that is not an important story or plot element by intentionally dying is a simple choice. It is not an evil choice and it is not immoral. It is a response to the developer's choice to put FILLER in their dungeon instead of FUN or CHALLENGE. If they would just CHOOSE to mix it up a bit and put some of their imagination (which is their job) into adding variety and think of simple ways of motivating players into staying on their very very linear path (...this is classic bad DM'ing btw, linear story with no options, no choices) then players wouldn't be spitting their laziness right back at them by skipping it.
Back to my point: The solution is simply to play the way you want to, if what other players are doing in this specific case doesn't effect you (because ideally you wont be playing with them) but bothers you anyway, that is your little issue to work through not everyone else's.
People cheating are doing great damage to others, even in cheaters runs only: it devalues the loots people enjoying the game get. I really don't care if they want badly their perfect vorpal in 3 weeks. Since it harms others, it is an evil and selfish choice, but you don't even see it.
The game is really enjoyable. Adds are fun. What you call trash is what make support-heavy classes having fun in this game. I guess you play a dps-focused character. Focus heavily on control or healing, then you will see that this game is really fun. My main is a DC. Remove "trash" and adds and i'm just a heal bot. Boring. Basically, you're playing rogue online. I guess it's not the same game.
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
It sounds here like you should just stay in groups that choose not to die intentionally.
The people who choose to move forward by dying aren't hurting you at all if you are not playing with them. To say they are is once again trying to tell people that they SHOULD play just the way you like to play, and they are wrong for wanting a different experience.
Skipping tedious content that is not an important story or plot element by intentionally dying is a simple choice. It is not an evil choice and it is not immoral. It is a response to the developer's choice to put FILLER in their dungeon instead of FUN or CHALLENGE. If they would just CHOOSE to mix it up a bit and put some of their imagination (which is their job) into adding variety and think of simple ways of motivating players into staying on their very very linear path (...this is classic bad DM'ing btw, linear story with no options, no choices) then players wouldn't be spitting their laziness right back at them by skipping it.
Back to my point: The solution is simply to play the way you want to, if what other players are doing in this specific case doesn't effect you (because ideally you wont be playing with them) but bothers you anyway, that is your little issue to work through not everyone else's.
It sounds to me like you are trying to rationalize what is clearly exploitative behavior. I'm confident that making campfire runs and intentionally dying are not playstyles the devs intended people to use.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
It sounds to me like you are trying to rationalize what is clearly exploitative behavior. I'm confident that making campfire runs and intentionally dying are not playstyles the devs intended people to use.
The possible fact that they didn't see it coming..couldn't foresee it happening...didn't do or haven't done anything to stop the behavior dead in its tracks tells me they could not care less.
The adds are the same monsters which are also found in "trash mobs".
Therefore, the adds are also "trash mobs".
What difference does it make if I kill some trash mob, with a boss, or without a boss?
Trash mobs (with or without a boss) drop cheap loot, while bosses drop better loot.
Hence, the word "trash" is used to describe such mobs.
Boss adds are part of the encounter and therefore not instance trash. Do we really need to argue mmo semantics now?
If I have access to the boss encounter after killing hordes of goblins, should I kill 2 and engage the boss? or 20000 because they're there but not in any way required? If I can walk past a group and chop 2 minutes off my dungeon without using anything but my W key, what is the issue?
The onus is on the designer because I can look at a room of trash mobs and say "huh I can just kill that group on the left and walk past the rest" without any shame.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
Boss adds are part of the encounter and therefore not instance trash. Do we really need to argue mmo semantics now?.
The whole dungeon is an instance. boss adds are the same monsters which are found in pre-spawned "trash" mobs. Trash is defined, by the value of the rewards, not by their location, or situation.
mob with low rewards = trash.
If a mob dropped high value loot or gave high rewards, it would not be trash.
As far as I can tell, boss adds give the exact same rewards as the same monster found in a different area of the same dungeon.
Hence, the word "trash" also applies to boss adds.
How do you define "trash"?
If I have access to the boss encounter after killing hordes of goblins, should I kill 2 and engage the boss? or 20000 because they're there but not in any way required? If I can walk past a group and chop 2 minutes off my dungeon without using anything but my W key, what is the issue?.
The original poster requests that all monsters be killed as a requirement to obtain the dungeon delves chest. He is not suggesting any requirement to kill all monsters in order to engage the boss and exit the dungeon. Not suggesting any punishment for not killing some monsters. You will still be free to finish the dungeon, without killing all enemies/monsters.
If you truly enjoy combat in NW, then killing 20000 should be fun, assuming you have time. Personally, I think this 20000 number is exaggerated. In many dungeon runs, my wizard is a top 3 killing leader and my total kills are usually only in the hundreds.
Many dungeons contain side areas, or hidden areas. Personally, I am against a 100% kill requirement to obtain the chest. After some thought, I think 50-75% is more reasonable because some players will avoid (or not find) some optional areas.
Some people will say to the OP, just don't play during dungeon delves. I've tried doing dungeons,skirmishes not during an event and the queue times seem much longer. I personally only do dungeons with a guild or during DD because I don't want to wait in a queue for 15-60 minutes or more during non-DD.
Comments
This is exactly how I see it. Too often in PUGs you may have only one or two players that are in the know about shortcuts and they will run on ahead expecting everyone else to follow suit and invariably get themselves or the party killed. It would have been far easier and quicker just to fight through the mobs they were trying to avoid.
I've been in boss fights, which go smoothly when no one tried to exploit, turn into hazardous multiple wipes because those same one or two players insist on perching tactics or similar. In a way I feel sad for those types of players, because instead of improving their play-style along with their gear, they continue using cheats they fell into using to beat the dungeon when their gear score was 2k lower.
At the same time, the idea that we should kill every monster in a dungeon is ludicrous. Do none of you use your Cloak of Invisibility? (Cryptic gave it us for a reason) or stay wide of enemy groups where you can? If not then all I can say is, what silly, ineffectual "heroes" you are
Bring up the Cloak of Invisibility? With its 50 minute cooldown? You can use it exactly once during delve hour. There's the real problem. By giving a time limit when you can guarantee yourself loot, is all the reason most people need to look for shortcuts. If you want to do runs without shortcuts, do them outside of delve hour.
I think it's absurd that currently one of the most effective tactics for many situations involves intentional death, but I have a hard time seeing that as a significant exploit no matter how I look at it.
I consider exploits the kind of 'tactics' that put players out of harm's way with ZERO risk of death while allowing them all of the big reward of treasure and exp. This isn't what is happening. Players are killing themselves, which has its own built in penalties already. They are killing themselves to get to the challenging parts of the game. Silly as hell, but hardly a true 'exploit' as the term has come to mean.
Remember, your DM wouldn't punish you for finding solutions besides fighting, and this supposed role playing game offers NOTHING else in the way of diplomacy (talking your way through a problem) or stealth (sneaking/hiding your way through a problem). Don't come down on players for not wanting to spend all of their time slashing up meaningless minions.
And don't you dare even think about holding back treasure or exp until every life form has been extinguished - that is hell and gone from D&D flavor, or any other real role playing game...
Amillion Dollars L60 'easy mode' GWF
This person has a problem...and that is being lazy, you choose to run a dungeon 100 times, don't skip the content. Why would you run a dungeon 100 times, let alone twice when nothing changes? Pure foolishness, and telling of the type of gamers and developers we have today. There is no reason to run a dungeon more than once to experience it and be done with it.
The mobs do not change, the path doesn't change, there is no thinking involved, the boss fights never change so why run these dungeons? Because of the gear? That's a laugh. I have run the regular dungeons one time, have my gs at 10.2 bought one T2 piece off the AH. There is no reason to run the epic dungeons, more HP bosses and more mobs isn't a changed dungeon. Now I wait for content and move on with my life until that happens or it doesn't.
It is people like this that support the developers and lazy programming. If more people refused to reward the developers for lazy , automated programming we would have ever changing dungeons that would actually be worth running multiple times because things changed.
People running dungeons 2 or 3 times is bad enough, running them 50-100 times like this person has is just plain stupid and labels them farmers. Think running an epic dungeon 30-100 times makes you "Hardcore?" , Nope, just foolish.
No one can force you to do anything.
I don't think you'd have to clear everything. But it should be made impossible to shortcut and cheat-die, to begin with. There's also the ledge-tossing one-shot-kills that break a lot.
if w ecould put that into a potion slot, i bet that it would be used more often but as it is now its just **** easy to forget that its even there sinceyou dont see it all the time
I can understand not wanting to slog through every single group to get what may be mediocre rewards. For the devs' part, I think they should adjust mob placement and numbers a bit to make fights more engaging and challenging in a "real" sense, instead of it just being a matter of plowing your way through large numbers of enemies.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Is it really alien thinking to maximize your effort? If I have the goal "make enough money to remove my GPF enchant" am I going to look for ways to get the most AD per hour or the least? If I have the goal "have a nice relaxing dungeon delve" am I going to rush through a dungeon? People set goals and tackle them with a degree of perceived or real efficiency. This thread is (presumably) coming from a person who queues solo and gets mad because not everyone in their group plays in the same way. It's an incredibly silly argument. Just play with like minded people and leave other people alone.
Fardelver is an interesting case. One of the most easily exploited map geometries in NW. It is also possible to just run from zone in to the door and aoe the entire zone down. You can do a completely legit 5 minute clear with a decent group. Hell, you had to get a guild for GGrym, why can't you just go do it the "right" way with them?
The dungeon trash is not any kind of challenge. I move out of red circles, rotate some abilities, and the mobs die. They give no exp and no meaningful loot. There is no real fear of death. The mobs are there to eat up time. It is not the player's fault that there are frequent gaps inbetween mob agro radius and map walls that let a sneaky player just walk right past entire groups. Why do you feel compelled to kill those things every time you clear a dungeon?
As far as "harassment" goes, that is directed at people who think walking past mobs is cheating or exploiting. Either it's intended or the map designers were lazy. Take your pick.
...and those who want slow (eventually tedious) runs should be able to run them slow???
I know, how about you don't tell me how I SHOULD be playing, and I will promise not to do the same to you.
Find friends that play the way you play. Run content with those friends. Everyone stays out of everyone else's way, and nobody gets insulted or gets booted from groups etc.
No, instead lets just come to the forums and raise hell and insult everyone who doesn't like to play the way I do. Yeah that is so much more rewarding.
Amillion Dollars L60 'easy mode' GWF
If they did that, I'd go nuts. Think about the extra area in Spider Queen. There is no reason to go in there. I went in a long time ago, and forgot about it.
If they make the dungeons fun, instead of a chore that you have to speed through, people might take their time and run them more often. As it is now, DD offers bad loot much of the time, and the dungeons can be too hard to complete in a pug. Speeding through during DD fixes that.
Except that, y'know, some of the "tricks" that people use for these fast runs are blatantly cheating. So, yeah... that type of behavior isn't and shouldn't be considered valid. I'm all for using legitimate tactics for a more expedient run, but not when purposely dying becomes the go-to way of winning, or when using holes in the map or glitches in the way climbing works, etc.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
This is more or less how I see it. I do think dying to get to the next fire IS cheesy and if they fixed it I wouldn't cry.
As it is now at least 1 out of 3 times when a group i am in is trying to take this kind of short cut, this process ends up making things take longer; if even one of the players doesn't know where to run and is too slow, or someone doesn't realize the party is running through and not fighting or somebody simply dies too soon.
An exploit it is NOT. It would be an exploit if I was triggering or manipulating a buggy mechanic that let me accomplish something I would not be able to do otherwise. Frankly this is 'trash' - filler & imagination-free content care of lazy designers, NOT some insurmountable and crucial challenge that we are tricking our way around.
You are right on here. If it is super important for the players to walk every inch of the preset, choice-free, linear path through the dungeon then for god's sake make the players WANT to stay on that linear path by making encounters that are unique and interesting - make the content engaging and FUN TO PLAY.
Make the content so that nobody wants to miss any of it.
Make the journey more interesting than the destination.
This is the designer's responsibility, and failing in it leads to dying to the next camp fire and finding ways of skipping the dry parts.
Amillion Dollars L60 'easy mode' GWF
Get a job for say $9 an hour. Make sure you have to drive to and from that job three hours a day. Pay for gas, wear on your car, to a job that overwhelms you with work, for that $9. Nothing changes besides something going wrong. There is a very, very small chance that you will get a bonus at the end of the year, that ends up being 1/10th of what you deserve. Sometimes, you don't get paid because you didn't do a good enough job, or didn't get lucky enough, or have the right coworkers on the job. See how you feel after that. That's how I look at it.
because, unlike you, I actually enjoy combat in Neverwinter. Neverwinter is very combat oriented, hack-n-slash combat. If I wanted to avoid combat, I would play Thief or Elder Scrolls or something else, but certainly not Neverwinter.
no fear of death? amazing. You should try epic dungeons solo or with one or two other players, since the combat is so easy. mobs eat up time? The whole game "eats" up time. LOL.
Again, let me ask you, what is challenging about Neverwinter? Why do you play this game?
Seems to me, this game is boring for you. Too easy, eats up time. Why don't you play a game which is more challenging, and thus would be more enjoyable to you?
I enjoy NW combat. I've done my time helping people through t1/t2s on their first clears. Sometimes I just need AD for some project or another though and I cannot be bothered killing every ******* giant or hulk.
I enjoy figuring out bosses in games
Looking forward to Module 1. Really hoping Malabog Castle is being made now and is not some remnant of last years development period with walls like cheesecloth and adds like FH
I would simply use DoT or AoE spell, while avoiding his attacks, and the boss will slowly die.
Mobs and adds are what make combat challenging in NW.
Of course, they could make complex boss mechanics which include riddles/puzzles, or obstacle course, or mini-game or something else, but that's not Neverwinter. Neverwinter is third person hack-n-slash combat. Embrace it.
It sounds here like you should just stay in groups that choose not to die intentionally.
The people who choose to move forward by dying aren't hurting you at all if you are not playing with them. To say they are is once again trying to tell people that they SHOULD play just the way you like to play, and they are wrong for wanting a different experience.
Skipping tedious content that is not an important story or plot element by intentionally dying is a simple choice. It is not an evil choice and it is not immoral. It is a response to the developer's choice to put FILLER in their dungeon instead of FUN or CHALLENGE. If they would just CHOOSE to mix it up a bit and put some of their imagination (which is their job) into adding variety and think of simple ways of motivating players into staying on their very very linear path (...this is classic bad DM'ing btw, linear story with no options, no choices) then players wouldn't be spitting their laziness right back at them by skipping it.
Back to my point: The solution is simply to play the way you want to, if what other players are doing in this specific case doesn't effect you (because ideally you wont be playing with them) but bothers you anyway, that is your little issue to work through not everyone else's.
Amillion Dollars L60 'easy mode' GWF
Trash mobs and boss adds are two different things. Why are you talking about boss adds now?
4 giants in a room that you can pull at once and kite without fear or avoid altogether by not killing a brute are not challenges to experienced groups. It's even there in the updating dungeon quest. The quest tells me "defeat Hrmnir" it doesn't say "exterminate the ice troll race".
The thing is, there is a way you can do adds without them becoming the main boss mechanic. For instance, let's say you were fighting a boss in a cave, and there were targetable boulders near certain openings that enemies came through - you could attack those boulders to temporarily seal those doors, but at the same time the enemies will try to dig their way through them, too.
The issue I, (and I'm sure some other people), have, is how adds just materialize in , and how many of them are higher tier enemies with their own "red circle" attacks, which just inundate your team needlessly.
Maybe one way to address this would be to have points throughout the map, leading up to the boss, which you could take out/disable, to affect the circumstances of the final boss fight - like destroying a goblin barracks in the dungeon would reduce the number or tier of the adds...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
The adds are the same monsters which are also found in "trash mobs".
Therefore, the adds are also "trash mobs".
What difference does it make if I kill some trash mob, with a boss, or without a boss?
Trash mobs (with or without a boss) drop cheap loot, while bosses drop better loot.
Hence, the word "trash" is used to describe such mobs.
People cheating are doing great damage to others, even in cheaters runs only: it devalues the loots people enjoying the game get. I really don't care if they want badly their perfect vorpal in 3 weeks. Since it harms others, it is an evil and selfish choice, but you don't even see it.
The game is really enjoyable. Adds are fun. What you call trash is what make support-heavy classes having fun in this game. I guess you play a dps-focused character. Focus heavily on control or healing, then you will see that this game is really fun. My main is a DC. Remove "trash" and adds and i'm just a heal bot. Boring. Basically, you're playing rogue online. I guess it's not the same game.
It sounds to me like you are trying to rationalize what is clearly exploitative behavior. I'm confident that making campfire runs and intentionally dying are not playstyles the devs intended people to use.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
The possible fact that they didn't see it coming..couldn't foresee it happening...didn't do or haven't done anything to stop the behavior dead in its tracks tells me they could not care less.
Boss adds are part of the encounter and therefore not instance trash. Do we really need to argue mmo semantics now?
If I have access to the boss encounter after killing hordes of goblins, should I kill 2 and engage the boss? or 20000 because they're there but not in any way required? If I can walk past a group and chop 2 minutes off my dungeon without using anything but my W key, what is the issue?
The onus is on the designer because I can look at a room of trash mobs and say "huh I can just kill that group on the left and walk past the rest" without any shame.
The whole dungeon is an instance. boss adds are the same monsters which are found in pre-spawned "trash" mobs. Trash is defined, by the value of the rewards, not by their location, or situation.
mob with low rewards = trash.
If a mob dropped high value loot or gave high rewards, it would not be trash.
As far as I can tell, boss adds give the exact same rewards as the same monster found in a different area of the same dungeon.
Hence, the word "trash" also applies to boss adds.
How do you define "trash"?
The original poster requests that all monsters be killed as a requirement to obtain the dungeon delves chest. He is not suggesting any requirement to kill all monsters in order to engage the boss and exit the dungeon. Not suggesting any punishment for not killing some monsters. You will still be free to finish the dungeon, without killing all enemies/monsters.
If you truly enjoy combat in NW, then killing 20000 should be fun, assuming you have time. Personally, I think this 20000 number is exaggerated. In many dungeon runs, my wizard is a top 3 killing leader and my total kills are usually only in the hundreds.
Many dungeons contain side areas, or hidden areas. Personally, I am against a 100% kill requirement to obtain the chest. After some thought, I think 50-75% is more reasonable because some players will avoid (or not find) some optional areas.
Some people will say to the OP, just don't play during dungeon delves. I've tried doing dungeons,skirmishes not during an event and the queue times seem much longer. I personally only do dungeons with a guild or during DD because I don't want to wait in a queue for 15-60 minutes or more during non-DD.
For you it's the journey. For me and others it's the reward the most important thing.