malkavierMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2013
Simple way to fix all issues with Guardians & GWFs in PvP: Make Crit a completely useless stat for Defenders. Fixes the stupid 25k crit hits from a knockback ability but still leaves them doing their jobs.
How Cryptic trolls the entire NWO playerbase: 9200 GS listed for CN, implying anyone who needs more has no skill.
Simple way to fix all issues with Guardians & GWFs in PvP: Make Crit a completely useless stat for Defenders. Fixes the stupid 25k crit hits from a knockback ability but still leaves them doing their jobs.
I'd give up my crit stat for a passive increase in damage equivalent to my current chance to do 75% extra damage for sure.
A flat removal of crit is silly though, these classes barely have roles in PVE as it is and you want to reduce their damage?
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malkavierMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2013
They aren't supposed to be doing damage, hence DEFENDER.
To make it more clear: I am all for buffs to GFs and GWFs to increase their survivability, such as more HP, increased Temp HP, etc. What I am against, is flat out, over the top damage dealing on a class archetype that is supposed to be there to Tank/Defend, not DPS.
What I'd like to see more of for GFs/GWFs: More mitigation, more health, fast interrupts, PBAoEs, PBAoE debuffs, Single Target Melee-Range debuffs, more class/game mechanics that favor them being REQUIRED for PvE & not the "spec nothing but this Paragon Path + Crit/Plaguefire/Tenebrous or GTFO".
What we need less of: People using Tanks as DPS.
How Cryptic trolls the entire NWO playerbase: 9200 GS listed for CN, implying anyone who needs more has no skill.
I think this is brilliant and a step in the correct direction. (i said correct instead of right because many tanks don't know the difference between right and right.)
- behold, halflings.
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mctankypantsMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2013
I don't think the debate should be about specific classes, but more based on the effect of enchants in pvp. Gtene make any class go auto beast mode. It's one of the reasons you see so many GWF's these days. When people discover a broken build, they flock to it.
Classes are fine, enchantments aren't.
I'm a TR, i eventually kill them, it just takes longer to kill them compared to killing other classes.
Learn to time your skills and dodges and you will be fine.
What to dodge ?...their sniper ability shield bash ? . They're op but of course you don't think that since you're op yourself.. Tell me can you play against 23k right in the face -_- ?
They aren't supposed to be doing damage, hence DEFENDER.
To make it more clear: I am all for buffs to GFs and GWFs to increase their survivability, such as more HP, increased Temp HP, etc. What I am against, is flat out, over the top damage dealing on a class archetype that is supposed to be there to Tank/Defend, not DPS.
What I'd like to see more of for GFs/GWFs: More mitigation, more health, fast interrupts, PBAoEs, PBAoE debuffs, Single Target Melee-Range debuffs, more class/game mechanics that favor them being REQUIRED for PvE & not the "spec nothing but this Paragon Path + Crit/Plaguefire/Tenebrous or GTFO".
What we need less of: People using Tanks as DPS.
Classes without dps or healing have no place at the moment.
There are no dungeons that require "defenders".
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I don't think you've done T2 Dungeons in at least two weeks.
I've done them all but Pirate in the past 2 days and the GF role is aoe dps or kiting. Rogues can tank any boss with ITC and dodge. CN optimal party is still 2 tr 2 cw 1 dc.
If GF damage is dropped to any significant degree, they go back to being a pity invite.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited July 2013
Tanking the boss is easy...for basically any class. Heck as a cleric I've often pulled boss aggro and had to drag it into some corner. I don't do much damage but I can "tank" the boss with no problem.
It's the waves of adds which are hard to content with and having a GF makes everything much, much easier.
The thing is the GF isn't there to "tank" but is there as mob control.
Without clerics being the magnet of all aggro the GF isn't needed as a tank but as a supplement aggro magnet to keep the fight predictable or manageable. I've found certain dungeons quite a bit harder without a guardian fighting controlling the aggro in the zone.
Arcane Singularity is great but without the old Astral Shield it just doesn't cut it most times.
As I said though, I have no problem with the damage output of a GF. I have a problem with the CC Chain (which is mainly a PvP spec anyway)
It's the waves of adds which are hard to content with and having a GF makes everything much, much easier.
The thing is the GF isn't there to "tank" but is there as mob control.
Without clerics being the magnet of all aggro the GF isn't needed as a tank but as a supplement aggro magnet to keep the fight predictable or manageable. I've found certain dungeons quite a bit harder without a guardian fighting controlling the aggro in the zone.
Arcane Singularity is great but without the old Astral Shield it just doesn't cut it most times.
Which ones though? I am hard pressed to say any fight requires a defender class.
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Tanking the boss is easy...for basically any class. Heck as a cleric I've often pulled boss aggro and had to drag it into some corner. I don't do much damage but I can "tank" the boss with no problem.
It's the waves of adds which are hard to content with and having a GF makes everything much, much easier.
The thing is the GF isn't there to "tank" but is there as mob control.
Without clerics being the magnet of all aggro the GF isn't needed as a tank but as a supplement aggro magnet to keep the fight predictable or manageable. I've found certain dungeons quite a bit harder without a guardian fighting controlling the aggro in the zone.
Arcane Singularity is great but without the old Astral Shield it just doesn't cut it most times.
As I said though, I have no problem with the damage output of a GF. I have a problem with the CC Chain (which is mainly a PvP spec anyway)
As a GF I don't want any adds on me. Cause I can't tank them. I want low agro let the cleric kite them so I can Dps the boss. Tanks don't tank in this game. Some day maybe.
As a GF I don't want any adds on me. Cause I can't tank them. I want low agro let the cleric kite them so I can Dps the boss. Tanks don't tank in this game. Some day maybe.
Just quit when all the adds target you then call it a hard counter.
What to dodge ?...their sniper ability shield bash ? . They're op but of course you don't think that since you're op yourself.. Tell me can you play against 23k right in the face -_- ?
Lol 23k in 1 hit? are you made of freaking paper or something?
and yes, only 1 ability you cant dodge as it is sniper. But it doesn't 1 shot you unless you have 0% damage resist or in case he is full greater tenebrous ( anyone can 1 shot you using stacks of greater tenebrous anyways)
However, impossible to catch is more than enough for me to counter his bashes and yes im speaking as a rogue myself .
Tanking the boss is easy...for basically any class. Heck as a cleric I've often pulled boss aggro and had to drag it into some corner. I don't do much damage but I can "tank" the boss with no problem.
It's the waves of adds which are hard to content with and having a GF makes everything much, much easier.
The thing is the GF isn't there to "tank" but is there as mob control.
Without clerics being the magnet of all aggro the GF isn't needed as a tank but as a supplement aggro magnet to keep the fight predictable or manageable. I've found certain dungeons quite a bit harder without a guardian fighting controlling the aggro in the zone.
Arcane Singularity is great but without the old Astral Shield it just doesn't cut it most times.
As I said though, I have no problem with the damage output of a GF. I have a problem with the CC Chain (which is mainly a PvP spec anyway)
There's generally a 1 encounter difference between a GF PvE and PvP spec. They are likely #1 pigeon holed class.
I realize as a healing cleric they have to forgo the 80' range to heal but they can also go immune to CC effects and all you have to do is dodge the initial lunging strike run a tad and you will be out of range of frontline before they can cast it. This does not even count that you have another dodge and CC immune daily as the GF is now stuck for 6-7 sec until they can lunge again, which you dodge again.
I admit cleric is the only class I don't play so it's the least class I have knowledge of but I do know how they can delay counter a GF. It's not really fun that you have to play to survive but that's every healer in every MMO ever.
You can delay a GF for quite some time of course eventually you run out of dodges and your knockback is on CD but you're team isn't doin their job if he's still alive.
A lack of CC chain is the biggest crutch to a cleric in PvP but if they were to lower the per point value of armor pen removing it from the #1 spot as well as negative defense I think it would significantly improve their healing and survivability without nerfing other classes.
Even when GF get double Power you'll slot Armor Pen over it up to 1500-1800, its just dumb.
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astariadodfMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Well believe me the only reason the debate is over is the small amount of GF you see in the PvP community. Think of what was there before the balance patch, and look what is there now. Funny its the same two classes that you see at least 3 of if not 4 of. Combine that with if some of those that play those classes see a GF or a Cleric or two in the group they roll into that doesnt have these two classes as a majority they leave?
Best indicator of OP is the numbers of players. Too many cant stand to lose.
Ya... you know which one is OP really and the other if backed by cheating becomes so too.
As a GF I don't want any adds on me. Cause I can't tank them. I want low agro let the cleric kite them so I can Dps the boss. Tanks don't tank in this game. Some day maybe.
1) If the cleric has aggro he doesn't heal
2) If you are with a team doing what they should be doing they draw the aggro, not the cleric.
Frozen Heart is one which was an absolute nightmare to do without a DC. I don't even run sooth anymore and I simply do not draw the aggro. Heck we even had be standing on an icicle out of each of most adds and I couldn't pull the aggro without having a CW next to me.
The days of a cleric casting a healing spell and having all of the adds in the map turn with angry eyes is gone. I can honestly say I have a hard time keeping aggro this day in age if I want it.
Most Fights, especially for FH, Karrundax and Pirate King, revolve around having the Rogue on the boss, DC and GF on adds and the rest flip wherever needed more which is generally on adds. The idea is to keep all of the adds off the DPS so that they can take down the boss while the rest of the team manages the aggro pile.
If you're not doing this you must have two clerics alternating Astral Shield. The last place I want a GF is on the boss.
In fact my last Castle Never trip was with a GF who likely didn't realize he had the ability to taunt targets. Full on PvP build, 13K GS but if I ran past him trying to dump some aggro I would actually pick up his aggro. Must have had literally no threat whatsoever...and I wish him the best of luck ever doing Castle Never because two DC's and 2 CW's couldn't keep alive due to the properly dispersed aggro.
There's generally a 1 encounter difference between a GF PvE and PvP spec. They are likely #1 pigeon holed class.
I realize as a healing cleric they have to forgo the 80' range to heal but they can also go immune to CC effects and all you have to do is dodge the initial lunging strike run a tad and you will be out of range of frontline before they can cast it. This does not even count that you have another dodge and CC immune daily as the GF is now stuck for 6-7 sec until they can lunge again, which you dodge again.
I admit cleric is the only class I don't play so it's the least class I have knowledge of but I do know how they can delay counter a GF. It's not really fun that you have to play to survive but that's every healer in every MMO ever.
You can delay a GF for quite some time of course eventually you run out of dodges and your knockback is on CD but you're team isn't doin their job if he's still alive.
A lack of CC chain is the biggest crutch to a cleric in PvP but if they were to lower the per point value of armor pen removing it from the #1 spot as well as negative defense I think it would significantly improve their healing and survivability without nerfing other classes.
Even when GF get double Power you'll slot Armor Pen over it up to 1500-1800, its just dumb.
Quite the contrary. Guardian Fighters are very dynamic. Tactician is an amazing defensive tree. One friend went for the pure out defensive aggro controlling tank build from the get go and you can't pull a mob off of him if you wanted to. He's pure on aggro lock and will never down.
Generally the powers are still similar. Even my cleric is by no means a PvP cleric and suffers for it but I do have PvP powers. The feats is where the true benefits of the class comes in from.
I've seen all out PvP Tanks. I promise you they exist and they exist in droves. Ask the clerics because we can tell when a tank is specced for PvP. They are garbage in PvE.
But I've seen a DPS Tank which built a great mix of both.
However somebody point out which power gives "Immunity to CC" on a DC. Hammer of Fate (a Daily) will give reductions of some kind but I am still often CC'd during casting that. I am an excellent dodger but there's no real reaction to dodging the knockdown. It's more a less either keep out of his range or he will chain CC.
Overall the cleric is a sitting duck which lacks the proper CC to counter the other CC. I can knock back but it's really a short rest period and of course chains of binding has a short bit of imobility but come on I am not going to do anything worthwhile at that point in time.
The CC on a Guardian Fighter who gets in range will have me on my rear end and there's nothing I can say about it. There's no magic "I'm invisible" like the rogue or few second entangle on the wizard. Don't even get me started on how much indomitable has been making me grit my teeth recently...
So if you want to spin this that anybody who gets caught by the GF deserves the chain stun...
Well the way you need to point is in the way the chain stun can be avoided to begin with.
From my point of view I don't want a major nerf. I just want to have a chance to get away even if I get hit once instead of knowing I might as well put my feet up and relax for a few seconds while I am in a perpetual CC chain even when facing a GF 1v1.
If that comes from a cleric's own ItC then so be it. I couldn't care less I just know the CC stun is a death sentence to a cleric.
2) If you are with a team doing what they should be doing they draw the aggro, not the cleric.
Frozen Heart is one which was an absolute nightmare to do without a DC. I don't even run sooth anymore and I simply do not draw the aggro. Heck we even had be standing on an icicle out of each of most adds and I couldn't pull the aggro without having a CW next to me.
The days of a cleric casting a healing spell and having all of the adds in the map turn with angry eyes is gone. I can honestly say I have a hard time keeping aggro this day in age if I want it.
Most Fights, especially for FH, Karrundax and Pirate King, revolve around having the Rogue on the boss, DC and GF on adds and the rest flip wherever needed more which is generally on adds. The idea is to keep all of the adds off the DPS so that they can take down the boss while the rest of the team manages the aggro pile.
If you're not doing this you must have two clerics alternating Astral Shield. The last place I want a GF is on the boss.
In fact my last Castle Never trip was with a GF who likely didn't realize he had the ability to taunt targets. Full on PvP build, 13K GS but if I ran past him trying to dump some aggro I would actually pick up his aggro. Must have had literally no threat whatsoever...and I wish him the best of luck ever doing Castle Never because two DC's and 2 CW's couldn't keep alive due to the properly dispersed aggro.
Yea I see some of your points. Honestly I really don't like or enjoy any of the Dungeons in this game. I wish they were good they just have to many adds and no one can really fulfill a role correctly. Most players will agree with that. On frozen heart as a GF I am all single target Dps blowin up the boss and want no adds on me. Maybe I can try and watch some vids of successful groups doing it other ways. I just feel tanks don't tank at all yet and aren't needed to in this game. I do like bringing Dps to the table and well it works since I can't even try a pure tank class till we have a Dual spec option. Cause well Conquer is the only PvP spec. Hope that there is some great boss fights in the future with different phases that don't involve ADDS. Add don't bring difficulty into dungeons they just make most players Rage and want to find ways around it cause its not a enjoyable experience at all. So I stick with PvP cause every dungeon I do just isn't fun at all till we get some better design. Gear doesn't make it enjoyable either. Do you think we can have some real boss fights in the future.
2) If you are with a team doing what they should be doing they draw the aggro, not the cleric.
Frozen Heart is one which was an absolute nightmare to do without a DC. I don't even run sooth anymore and I simply do not draw the aggro. Heck we even had be standing on an icicle out of each of most adds and I couldn't pull the aggro without having a CW next to me.
The days of a cleric casting a healing spell and having all of the adds in the map turn with angry eyes is gone. I can honestly say I have a hard time keeping aggro this day in age if I want it.
Most Fights, especially for FH, Karrundax and Pirate King, revolve around having the Rogue on the boss, DC and GF on adds and the rest flip wherever needed more which is generally on adds. The idea is to keep all of the adds off the DPS so that they can take down the boss while the rest of the team manages the aggro pile.
If you're not doing this you must have two clerics alternating Astral Shield. The last place I want a GF is on the boss.
In fact my last Castle Never trip was with a GF who likely didn't realize he had the ability to taunt targets. Full on PvP build, 13K GS but if I ran past him trying to dump some aggro I would actually pick up his aggro. Must have had literally no threat whatsoever...and I wish him the best of luck ever doing Castle Never because two DC's and 2 CW's couldn't keep alive due to the properly dispersed aggro.
If you split dps on Karrundax you are spending unnecessary time when you can just zerg the boss with complete safety.
Spell Plague dc cw 2x rogue and your 5th can be anything.
Any can kite in FH if you kill the archers.
Spider 2 tr just burn her while cws and dc manage adds. 5th can be any class.
Etc, etc
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fusedmassMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 252Bounty Hunter
edited July 2013
The common complaint seems to be
Guardians: No one was inviting us to dungeons before the buff
Answer: Of course you're invited to groups. Your the tank. They cannot do a dungeon without it. What I see this translates as, "no one wanted us before, now we're over powered, we cannot get invited fast enough. So don't change that"
Guardians: Its your play style, learn to play. Know how to dodge and kite
Answer: I have kited Guardians, using blink till it was out of cool downs. I have tried using all of CC, as a CW that's a ton. I have circled around them. I have waited them out. It doesn't change they're able to take more then three of my most damaging spells
Including one that drops ice pick on them from the air. Sometimes, it has no damage. At all. I don't mean ..a tiny amount. I mean they're able to block all of the damage. Then they charge at me, knocking me for over half my health in one move, then before I can even move (stunned) they can kill again.
The design of a tank is to hold threat, to absorb damage. They're not supposed be able to equally abosrb damage and dps like a pure dps class. No other class, has this over powered. I don't mean that as in, easy to kill. They are balanced.
I don't want Guardians nerfed to the ground, but they are not balanced right now at all. I see numerous complaints in game from other people in PVP echoing my same complaint, and I never even mentioned it to them. Anyone can see this class is over powered.
Also has anyone tried running with them in PVE. In nearly all the encounters I been in, they out dps everyone in the group, by a large margin. No its not me, its the class. Pretending their is not a problem isn't going to save the class from a nerf.
rapticorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,078Arc User
edited July 2013
You're still crying about this? If you can't kill a GF as a CW you're doing something wrong. That's the simple truth.
Also I've never taken half the health from anyone on one move so obviously you're referring to a specific build or equipment set. Not all players have similar specs. You seriously want to nerf a whole class due to that? And based on what happens in PvP?
Also has anyone tried running with them in PVE. In nearly all the encounters I been in, they out dps everyone in the group, by a large margin. No its not me, its the class. Pretending their is not a problem isn't going to save the class from a nerf.
Good rogues consistently beat GFs. DPS cw can beat GF.
Cleave is most of the reason why GF blow you away on trash. An AoE at will that is not a problem in pvp.
Go ahead and nerf Bulls and Lunging. Most people who focus on PVE will never notice.
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I'd give up my crit stat for a passive increase in damage equivalent to my current chance to do 75% extra damage for sure.
A flat removal of crit is silly though, these classes barely have roles in PVE as it is and you want to reduce their damage?
To make it more clear: I am all for buffs to GFs and GWFs to increase their survivability, such as more HP, increased Temp HP, etc. What I am against, is flat out, over the top damage dealing on a class archetype that is supposed to be there to Tank/Defend, not DPS.
What I'd like to see more of for GFs/GWFs: More mitigation, more health, fast interrupts, PBAoEs, PBAoE debuffs, Single Target Melee-Range debuffs, more class/game mechanics that favor them being REQUIRED for PvE & not the "spec nothing but this Paragon Path + Crit/Plaguefire/Tenebrous or GTFO".
What we need less of: People using Tanks as DPS.
Classes are fine, enchantments aren't.
What to dodge ?...their sniper ability shield bash ? . They're op but of course you don't think that since you're op yourself.. Tell me can you play against 23k right in the face -_- ?
Classes without dps or healing have no place at the moment.
There are no dungeons that require "defenders".
Play a DC then you'll understand..Let me guess you're a tr or gf.
I don't think you've done T2 Dungeons in at least two weeks.
I've done them all but Pirate in the past 2 days and the GF role is aoe dps or kiting. Rogues can tank any boss with ITC and dodge. CN optimal party is still 2 tr 2 cw 1 dc.
If GF damage is dropped to any significant degree, they go back to being a pity invite.
It's the waves of adds which are hard to content with and having a GF makes everything much, much easier.
The thing is the GF isn't there to "tank" but is there as mob control.
Without clerics being the magnet of all aggro the GF isn't needed as a tank but as a supplement aggro magnet to keep the fight predictable or manageable. I've found certain dungeons quite a bit harder without a guardian fighting controlling the aggro in the zone.
Arcane Singularity is great but without the old Astral Shield it just doesn't cut it most times.
As I said though, I have no problem with the damage output of a GF. I have a problem with the CC Chain (which is mainly a PvP spec anyway)
Which ones though? I am hard pressed to say any fight requires a defender class.
As a GF I don't want any adds on me. Cause I can't tank them. I want low agro let the cleric kite them so I can Dps the boss. Tanks don't tank in this game. Some day maybe.
Just quit when all the adds target you then call it a hard counter.
Lol 23k in 1 hit? are you made of freaking paper or something?
and yes, only 1 ability you cant dodge as it is sniper. But it doesn't 1 shot you unless you have 0% damage resist or in case he is full greater tenebrous ( anyone can 1 shot you using stacks of greater tenebrous anyways)
However, impossible to catch is more than enough for me to counter his bashes and yes im speaking as a rogue myself .
There's generally a 1 encounter difference between a GF PvE and PvP spec. They are likely #1 pigeon holed class.
I realize as a healing cleric they have to forgo the 80' range to heal but they can also go immune to CC effects and all you have to do is dodge the initial lunging strike run a tad and you will be out of range of frontline before they can cast it. This does not even count that you have another dodge and CC immune daily as the GF is now stuck for 6-7 sec until they can lunge again, which you dodge again.
I admit cleric is the only class I don't play so it's the least class I have knowledge of but I do know how they can delay counter a GF. It's not really fun that you have to play to survive but that's every healer in every MMO ever.
You can delay a GF for quite some time of course eventually you run out of dodges and your knockback is on CD but you're team isn't doin their job if he's still alive.
A lack of CC chain is the biggest crutch to a cleric in PvP but if they were to lower the per point value of armor pen removing it from the #1 spot as well as negative defense I think it would significantly improve their healing and survivability without nerfing other classes.
Even when GF get double Power you'll slot Armor Pen over it up to 1500-1800, its just dumb.
Well believe me the only reason the debate is over is the small amount of GF you see in the PvP community. Think of what was there before the balance patch, and look what is there now. Funny its the same two classes that you see at least 3 of if not 4 of. Combine that with if some of those that play those classes see a GF or a Cleric or two in the group they roll into that doesnt have these two classes as a majority they leave?
Best indicator of OP is the numbers of players. Too many cant stand to lose.
Ya... you know which one is OP really and the other if backed by cheating becomes so too.
1) If the cleric has aggro he doesn't heal
2) If you are with a team doing what they should be doing they draw the aggro, not the cleric.
Frozen Heart is one which was an absolute nightmare to do without a DC. I don't even run sooth anymore and I simply do not draw the aggro. Heck we even had be standing on an icicle out of each of most adds and I couldn't pull the aggro without having a CW next to me.
The days of a cleric casting a healing spell and having all of the adds in the map turn with angry eyes is gone. I can honestly say I have a hard time keeping aggro this day in age if I want it.
Most Fights, especially for FH, Karrundax and Pirate King, revolve around having the Rogue on the boss, DC and GF on adds and the rest flip wherever needed more which is generally on adds. The idea is to keep all of the adds off the DPS so that they can take down the boss while the rest of the team manages the aggro pile.
If you're not doing this you must have two clerics alternating Astral Shield. The last place I want a GF is on the boss.
In fact my last Castle Never trip was with a GF who likely didn't realize he had the ability to taunt targets. Full on PvP build, 13K GS but if I ran past him trying to dump some aggro I would actually pick up his aggro. Must have had literally no threat whatsoever...and I wish him the best of luck ever doing Castle Never because two DC's and 2 CW's couldn't keep alive due to the properly dispersed aggro.
Quite the contrary. Guardian Fighters are very dynamic. Tactician is an amazing defensive tree. One friend went for the pure out defensive aggro controlling tank build from the get go and you can't pull a mob off of him if you wanted to. He's pure on aggro lock and will never down.
Generally the powers are still similar. Even my cleric is by no means a PvP cleric and suffers for it but I do have PvP powers. The feats is where the true benefits of the class comes in from.
I've seen all out PvP Tanks. I promise you they exist and they exist in droves. Ask the clerics because we can tell when a tank is specced for PvP. They are garbage in PvE.
But I've seen a DPS Tank which built a great mix of both.
However somebody point out which power gives "Immunity to CC" on a DC. Hammer of Fate (a Daily) will give reductions of some kind but I am still often CC'd during casting that. I am an excellent dodger but there's no real reaction to dodging the knockdown. It's more a less either keep out of his range or he will chain CC.
Overall the cleric is a sitting duck which lacks the proper CC to counter the other CC. I can knock back but it's really a short rest period and of course chains of binding has a short bit of imobility but come on I am not going to do anything worthwhile at that point in time.
The CC on a Guardian Fighter who gets in range will have me on my rear end and there's nothing I can say about it. There's no magic "I'm invisible" like the rogue or few second entangle on the wizard. Don't even get me started on how much indomitable has been making me grit my teeth recently...
So if you want to spin this that anybody who gets caught by the GF deserves the chain stun...
Well the way you need to point is in the way the chain stun can be avoided to begin with.
From my point of view I don't want a major nerf. I just want to have a chance to get away even if I get hit once instead of knowing I might as well put my feet up and relax for a few seconds while I am in a perpetual CC chain even when facing a GF 1v1.
If that comes from a cleric's own ItC then so be it. I couldn't care less I just know the CC stun is a death sentence to a cleric.
Yea I see some of your points. Honestly I really don't like or enjoy any of the Dungeons in this game. I wish they were good they just have to many adds and no one can really fulfill a role correctly. Most players will agree with that. On frozen heart as a GF I am all single target Dps blowin up the boss and want no adds on me. Maybe I can try and watch some vids of successful groups doing it other ways. I just feel tanks don't tank at all yet and aren't needed to in this game. I do like bringing Dps to the table and well it works since I can't even try a pure tank class till we have a Dual spec option. Cause well Conquer is the only PvP spec. Hope that there is some great boss fights in the future with different phases that don't involve ADDS. Add don't bring difficulty into dungeons they just make most players Rage and want to find ways around it cause its not a enjoyable experience at all. So I stick with PvP cause every dungeon I do just isn't fun at all till we get some better design. Gear doesn't make it enjoyable either. Do you think we can have some real boss fights in the future.
If you split dps on Karrundax you are spending unnecessary time when you can just zerg the boss with complete safety.
Spell Plague dc cw 2x rogue and your 5th can be anything.
Any can kite in FH if you kill the archers.
Spider 2 tr just burn her while cws and dc manage adds. 5th can be any class.
Etc, etc
Guardians: No one was inviting us to dungeons before the buff
Answer: Of course you're invited to groups. Your the tank. They cannot do a dungeon without it. What I see this translates as, "no one wanted us before, now we're over powered, we cannot get invited fast enough. So don't change that"
Guardians: Its your play style, learn to play. Know how to dodge and kite
Answer: I have kited Guardians, using blink till it was out of cool downs. I have tried using all of CC, as a CW that's a ton. I have circled around them. I have waited them out. It doesn't change they're able to take more then three of my most damaging spells
Including one that drops ice pick on them from the air. Sometimes, it has no damage. At all. I don't mean ..a tiny amount. I mean they're able to block all of the damage. Then they charge at me, knocking me for over half my health in one move, then before I can even move (stunned) they can kill again.
The design of a tank is to hold threat, to absorb damage. They're not supposed be able to equally abosrb damage and dps like a pure dps class. No other class, has this over powered. I don't mean that as in, easy to kill. They are balanced.
I don't want Guardians nerfed to the ground, but they are not balanced right now at all. I see numerous complaints in game from other people in PVP echoing my same complaint, and I never even mentioned it to them. Anyone can see this class is over powered.
Also has anyone tried running with them in PVE. In nearly all the encounters I been in, they out dps everyone in the group, by a large margin. No its not me, its the class. Pretending their is not a problem isn't going to save the class from a nerf.
Also I've never taken half the health from anyone on one move so obviously you're referring to a specific build or equipment set. Not all players have similar specs. You seriously want to nerf a whole class due to that? And based on what happens in PvP?
Good rogues consistently beat GFs. DPS cw can beat GF.
Cleave is most of the reason why GF blow you away on trash. An AoE at will that is not a problem in pvp.
Go ahead and nerf Bulls and Lunging. Most people who focus on PVE will never notice.