Guardians Are Over Powered, when can we expect a Nerf?

fusedmass

The debate is over

Guardians are over powered. I'm not going to bore everyone to death with the exact science behind all this data. As many of you know they are able to block an insane amount of damage, at the same time DPS like a rouge. We all know a tweak is needed. I'd like an official response from the dev's

On just how they plan on fixing this problem into a solution.

esteena

They are fine, not OP.

I'm a TR, i eventually kill them, it just takes longer to kill them compared to killing other classes.

Learn to time your skills and dodges and you will be fine.

olcsonn

So tired of everytime someone can't seem to beat another class they start yelling for a nerf...

smertrios1

I'm with the OP. Its not about whining or even being bad. The fact of the matter is right now GF's damage is more than it should be. There designed for survivability, hence being called a "Tank". But when you can be a tank and also 3 shot other platewearers(or any other class for that matter) before they have the ability to even stand up and fight back. There's a problem.

esteena

smertrios1 wrote: »

I'm with the OP. Its not about whining or even being bad. The fact of the matter is right now GF's damage is more than it should be. There designed for survivability, hence being called a "Tank". But when you can be a tank and also 3 shot other platewearers(or any other class for that matter) before they have the ability to even stand up and fight back. There's a problem.

All humanly effort.This is how you dodge their knocks.

tang56

smertrios1 wrote: »

I'm with the OP. Its not about whining or even being bad. The fact of the matter is right now GF's damage is more than it should be. There designed for survivability, hence being called a "Tank". But when you can be a tank and also 3 shot other platewearers(or any other class for that matter) before they have the ability to even stand up and fight back. There's a problem.

Someone has already put this far better than I can.

zxorn wrote: »

People seem to put OP, Nerf Nerf Nerf, without any evidence, statistics or even supplying a theoretical scenario that supports their claim.

I'm going to do some guys a favor and supply tactics for each class (minus cleric since I don't play one). These will work nearly every single time against a GF. I do this mostly because I hate the sound of babies crying. drives me nuts.

Oh and a previous post claims something about GF w/ GTene. TR by far makes the best use of GTene of any class because they will almost always get full dmg on the initial procs from range and it's not entirely the HP pool that does the dmg. Its the +%dmg synergy such as lurkers. Next would be GWF then GF/CW.

Now, how to fight a GF...

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TR Vrs GF: Stealth at your max range, preferably before they see you. Knife them 1-3 times, this will cause most GF to Guard and try and close to your position. A good GF will use the sound effects to track you. Move a bit and throw more knives until his Guard is 10%. (note if 9+ knives do not break a GF's Guard you have bad gear and wont 1v1 them)

If you are not Gtene or lower gear You'll probably use smoke bomb instead of Impact shot. All rogues should be using Impossible/lashing otherwise.

If using Smoke Bomb: Most GF will continue to hold guard until it breaks against knives, Throw 2 more knives break the Guard and leave stealth with smoke bomb, You now have a dazed GF with no guard and who is slowed. Follow with a flurry and lashing blade, if the lashing crits it should be over. If not pop impossible and be immune to the CC he's about to throw at you, flurry 2 more times and you win taking roughly half your HP with no CC's. If he's not somehow dead dodge away, get ready for the lunging, dodge it, and keep running stealth should be up before his next lunge.

If using Impact Shot: As above finish the Guard meter off with knives, purposely wait for your stealth to nearly end then pop impossible, give them 1 flurry and a Lashing, as before if lashing crits it's over. If not dodge backward, then dodge the lunging he's about to use. (If they didn't waste it against your impossible) Impact shot, Move further back, throw 1-3 knives, Impact shot again, at this point it should deff be over but if not you should be able to restealth in a matter of seconds since you have not actually taken any damage. If they saved their lunging for after Impossible and you were forced to dodge twice you "might" have a problem though you've already had two possible kill scenarios at this point. Create some distance, Restealth knife the 20% guard they may have gotten back finishing your knife supply and repeat starting from impossible to catch.

Note I did not mention Dailies since they're entirely a bonus in this Vrs.

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GWF Vrs GF: If you are Sent/Tene you win, Sadly there's not a lot a GF can do against that build. 2-3 encounter put you at Full Unstoppable with 1/2-2/3 hp left and you will sprint up to them rampage their guard down and CC lock them dead.

If you are the usual Stunlock Hybrid DPS build: You can still take a full encounter set from a GF as long as they don't triple crit. However you can actually stop a GF from using bullrush if you use Takedown just as a GF reaches you with lunging. Its quit possible to knock them first or at least each other at the same time.

If you did not interrupt them: after being knocked back from bullrush and down from frontline, use Unstopptable, note that a smart GF will not walk right up to you if the triple encounter did not drop you to less than 15% as cleave is slow and does horrible dmg and they will only get 2 of these off before you can unstoppable with full meter.

A good GF will try to create some distance forcing you to sprint and catch them till their encounters return and your unstoppable wears off. Just use some sprint and try a Takedown to their back. if they didn't block it you have a full CC lock kill. If they did block it, spam sure strike and break their guard, if they drop guard to run again flurry lock them, if your daily is up its over. If they continue to block, it will take all of 4 seconds to fully break guard, then do flurry, knockdown should be back, as well then use Indom Strike.

Both fighters are usually a good fight against each other however Cresendo > Indomitable as far as dailies. When vrsing anything but cleric. In fact I find Cresendo to be one of the best dailies in the game next to Lurker's.

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CW Vrs GF: Stay max range at all times. It is not your job to compromise your range advantage in order to cap points unless terribly necessary. You're Job is to get the other team off the point and caping at expense of range should be a last resort.

There are two variants of this tactic one uses enfeeble the other uses frost. Enfeeble is quicker while Frost has much more single control.

If using Frost: Spell Master Conduit, This is not the best for your group In regard to anti caping, but after all we're talking about Vrs GF. Conduit an incoming GF, move back and let chill stack, Frost ray for one stack and the GF will freeze regardless of Guard. Entangle them, recast Conduit if possible, then Ice shard before they break free. If your daily is up Use it quickly and they cannot Guard it while stunned. The GF should now be 1/3 Hp or less, Repel the GF while they are prone if you did not have Knife up, they blocked or you slot shield move back or even blink once for room then repeat all steps. You can throw missile and frost ray stacks when you feel comfortable. They simple cannot get to you ever.

If using Enfeeble: This tact usually slots Spell Master repel, as its better for your group. Spot an incoming GF, throw 1-2 magic missiles, don't bother with the full attack, see if they block, if they do enfeeble and move back as you move 3x faster than a GF with Guard up. If they drop guard to move quicker repeat this step. If they keep guard up throw a full missile set at them. The key to missile against guard is that its multiple smaller dmg hits, Guard gains extra mitigation vrs larger dmg attacks. Which is why Lashing and Ice Knife do not work well against it.

If they face tank your first missile barrage do 1-2 more attacks not the full set. End the 2nd or 3rd strike as an Entangle. Do not use Chill strike or Repel as they have very easy to identify motions from range, Entangle is very hard to catch in the middle of magic missiles. If they managed to block the Entangle; Blink away and repeat above steps. If you land it which you most likely will Enfeeble another stack, Chill strike and if you're Knife is up quickly use it. This will usually bring a GF to 1/3 HP or dead depending on crits. Now use Repel while they're prone or stun and repeat from the top.

The key is to trick a GF into either letting you missile his guard down (Which should take at max 3 full attack) to open him to CC or to sneak an Entangle in when he drops it for movement. Keep in mind that with both of these tactics you have to use blink at most once or twice. You still have 2 + recharge time for any room of error. Even if the first set does not kill a GF somehow, you can repeat all these steps multiple times as a GF has one easily dodged 40' gap closer.
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There's simply no reason to nerf any class across the board as of current, certain skills are for sure up to debate. However I cannot see how anyone can come to a proper "balance" decision while Hit Detection is beyond horrible and certain mechanics such as bringing an opponent's def to negatives are in place.

Thanks for reading hope this helps.

abombination247

fusedmass wrote: »

The debate is over

Guardians are over powered. I'm not going to bore everyone to death with the exact science behind all this data. As many of you know they are able to block an insane amount of damage, at the same time DPS like a rouge. We all know a tweak is needed. I'd like an official response from the dev's

On just how they plan on fixing this problem into a solution.

I am a GF and well GF's need a lot of buff's especially to fulfill there actual roll in the game.

First block. There block meter and the mechanic is pretty bad. In a dungeon it breaks in 1-3 secs and can use some big buff's for it to work correctly to actually face tank. Don't have a great solution on how to buff it. Just needs to be able to take way more damage and replenish quicker maybe based on recovery not sure. I would say at least a 50% buff.

A GF in conquer build since that is the only viable build still. Which I am. Any character will do huge Dps with the right gear so this is actually pretty balanced considering a rogue still crits 30k+ while a GF struggles to get 20k crits. Not only that all of a GF's attacks are really really really slow. So just advoid them you can dodge?

Fist off why would a Dev respond ? He will just state what I have. You bring up no facts or data. Because there is none stating that they are OP.

What needs to happen is more GF buffs in the defensive department and there defensive tree buffed more. I also think there Health pool is way to low for this game. I think a buffed health pool corresponding to Con would be a nice buff because a GF health should be 38k+ if not 42-48k area. Then they would be able to tank like they properly should. I hope the Dev's see my post so the GF can get the proper buff's he needs and that way a defensive tree is more used.

olcsonn

I kill them all the time as a TR, does it take some work, yes, is it harder than other classes, sometimes, but are they OP... NO. They just have a mechanic that requires some work to work around. Now if there are two of them and they are working smartly together are they **** near unstoppable? Hell yes LOL. Then again if you get 2 of any class and they are smart it's pretty tough too.

smertrios1

You can't dodge everything. I'm a GWF, I can't pop unstoppable unless I'm standing up. And for that matter noone can use anything if there not standing up. GF's don't let you stand up. It's simple.

esteena

smertrios1 wrote: »

You can't dodge everything. I'm a GWF, I can't pop unstoppable unless I'm standing up. And for that matter noone can use anything if there not standing up. GF's don't let you stand up. It's simple.

You can stun lock like a god already....

olcsonn

Dodge is an amazing ability, some people are just too lazy to push that one extra button. Although they always kill me when I hit caps lock instead of shift... I know that is my fault and do not come on the forms whining to nerf them.

smertrios1

olcsonn wrote: »

Dodge is an amazing ability, some people are just too lazy to push that one extra button. Although they always kill me when I hit caps lock instead of shift... I know that is my fault and do not come on the forms whining to nerf them.

Don't think forum was about people hitting the wrong button to dodge. lol

uriziem

esteena wrote: »

They are fine, not OP.

I'm a TR, i eventually kill them, it just takes longer to kill them compared to killing other classes.

Learn to time your skills and dodges and you will be fine.

u wrong, i have guardian and tr full geared(rank 8/9 gem) and for sure guardian conqueror is little op, in fact guardian defender is a dps in heavy armor and shield. U can kill a a serious guardian only in daily lurker assoult cloud of steel + lashing blade, you think are strong, but believe me, you have only met weak people .

esteena

smertrios1 wrote: »

Don't think forum was about people hitting the wrong button to dodge. lol

It was an example... *facedesk*

olcsonn

Nor was it my point, my point was that there attacks can be dodged. They are not unbeatable, this is the same logic as a TRs 30k crits. Every class has it's pro's and con's, just because someone can't figure out a way to beat them doesn't mean that they should be nerfed. It's a cheap cop out.

kabothoriginal

olcsonn wrote: »

I kill them all the time as a TR, does it take some work, yes, is it harder than other classes, sometimes, but are they OP... NO. They just have a mechanic that requires some work to work around. Now if there are two of them and they are working smartly together are they **** near unstoppable? Hell yes LOL. Then again if you get 2 of any class and they are smart it's pretty tough too.

Just about anything that is 2v1 is unstoppable, unless you are pugging. Doesn't really matter what class it is. However, GF and GWF are the only two classes I see that can take 2 or 3v1 and either win or make others run away.

smertrios1

esteena wrote: »

It was an example... *facedesk*

Completely unrelated to anything we're talking about. xD

esteena

uriziem wrote: »

u wrong, i have guardian and tr full geared(rank 8/9 gem) and for sure guardian conqueror is little op, in fact guardian defender is a dps in heavy armor and shield. U can kill a a serious guardian only in daily lurker assoult cloud of steel + lashing blade, you think are strong, but believe me, you have only met weak people .

I empty their guard meter while i'm stealthed + throwing knifes. after that they are a peace of cake..I'm not HAMSTER enough to go throw all my skills at them while their guard is up.

and no, i use blood bath to DPS them.

smertrios1

olcsonn wrote: »

Nor was it my point, my point was that there attacks can be dodged. They are not unbeatable, this is the same logic as a TRs 30k crits. Every class has it's pro's and con's, just because someone can't figure out a way to beat them doesn't mean that they should be nerfed. It's a cheap cop out.

Thinking more about it, probably right. I think the issue is really the few percentage of players who have top end gear with top end OP enchants, that make there class OP. Rather than the class actually being OP.( I was reading another forum about).

esteena

smertrios1 wrote: »

Completely unrelated to anything we're talking about. xD

You totally misunderstood/ didn't understand his post about " missing the shift button".I just explained it to you that it was an example that not everytime you do something wrong, because of your inability to use your human hands, means you should come and whine and forums.He simply meant if you can't beat some specific class, it is all on you. Which means that class isn't OP just because he out played you.

I hope you understand now. /sigh

smertrios1

esteena wrote: »

You totally misunderstood/ didn't understand his post about " missing the shift button".I just explained it to you that it was an example that not everytime you do something wrong, because of your inability to use your human hands, means you should come and whine and forums.He simply meant if you can't beat some specific class, it is all on you. Which means that class isn't OP just because he out player you.

I hope you understand now. /sigh

Still don't get it.

uriziem

eh eh u make me laugh, I think you're a dog that barks and does not bite, if you were a real pro gamer would not say these things, you're a casual player.
Blood bath, tsk, you do not deserve my attention

silveralucard

before the patch i could say that TR was OP after the patch i think is more even no more 1 hit kills, sure you can still 2 or 3 shot someone XD but if it is full equip it will bem or edifficult as for GF they are good in fact never being better, i think the main focus for now should be fix the bot issue and all the buggs

tang56

smertrios1 wrote: »

Thinking more about it, probably right. I think the issue is really the few percentage of players who have top end gear with top end OP enchants, that make there class OP. Rather than the class actually being OP.( I was reading another forum about).

Yup. Nobody wants to be the person who's just gotten to T1 gear, getting good enough to trounce most dungeons then get thrashed by someone in PvP with $600 worth of enchantments. Sadly, at L60, this is common. L59 PvP is very well balanced.

olcsonn

It was like esteena said, as a TR stealthed + throwing knifes and they no longer have a guard. Not to mention smoke bomb ruins their days as well. They are not OP, yes if they are in top end gear to they face roll people... OF COURSE they do, but that can be said for any class. They are tough to beat and if you allow them to combo you then they will kill you fast, but if you allow any of the other classes combo you then you will die as well. Should they be nerfing any class, no, should they nerf gear, no, could they possibly do smarter bracketing at 60 pvp, yes.

esteena

uriziem wrote: »

eh eh u make me laugh, I think you're a dog that barks and does not bite, if you were a real pro gamer would not say these things, you're a casual player.
Blood bath, tsk, you do not deserve my attention

Blood bath is scary in 1 vs 1 situations. Since you are untargetable and un CC'able

Lurker assault can be stopped with a simple smoke bomb. That's why it isn't preferred in 1 vs 1 against a class that can knock you off...(GF can knock you off even if you are stealthed btw)

You have alot to learn about rogues.

eagles9595

Just another crying baby who cannot stand dying in pvp.

Nobody's was complaining when the GF were banned from T2 dungeons because they could not tank or do enough dps.

Stop doing pvp if you cannot kill GF and leave us alone !!!
ffs stop asking for a Nerf which will impact so many GF who only ask to have fun in PVE.

PVP players are always crying about a class and asking for a nerf because they canot kill them fast enough ot they need to apply a tactic which is more than spamming 1 button

smertrios1

olcsonn wrote: »

It was like esteena said, as a TR stealthed + throwing knifes and they no longer have a guard. Not to mention smoke bomb ruins their days as well. They are not OP, yes if they are in top end gear to they face roll people... OF COURSE they do, but that can be said for any class. They are tough to beat and if you allow them to combo you then they will kill you fast, but if you allow any of the other classes combo you then you will die as well. Should they be nerfing any class, no, should they nerf gear, no, could they possibly do smarter bracketing at 60 pvp, yes.

I was reading someone's ideas about 60 pvp matchmaking through gearscore. Which would eliminate most of the problems. Since bots have next to no gear and the OP gear enchanted people have a rather high one. It would help with balancing issues as well as all the PVP complaints.

olcsonn

I agree with GS bracketing. I think if they did that then a lot of these small minded people would see that classes are not as OP as they think. As of now the gear doesn't look that much different in pvp so it's hard to always see the difference between 8.5k GS and a 13K GS. Because this game is so new, nerfing shouldn't be done for at least 6 months in.

maiku217

uriziem wrote: »

I think you're on the wrong game buddy, this game isn't remotely related to D&D other than some lores.

ifthir

uriziem wrote: »

U can kill a a serious guardian only in daily lurker assoult cloud of steel + lashing blade, you think are strong, but believe me, you have only met weak people .

Honestly...you claim to be an elite gamer and your signature verifies you've at least been playing awhile, BUT, you just sound stupid here.

I kill GF's all the time, with a PUG, and I am rarely in Lurker's.