I think ledges offer a nice change from your typical dungeon runs. Of course too much of it is ridiculous. But I would like to see GWf get something unique to their class. These like:
- Unstoppable extends the CC immunity to anyone else within 20ft of the GWF. (crazy I know)
- Battle Fury gives everyone Regeneration equal to 25% of a player's Power.
- Daring Shout lowers the damage of affected targets by 10% for 5sec.
- Come and Get it would function EXACTLY like the Thunes' pull followed by an AOE attack that leaves target prove for 1secon.
- Roar (remove that silly 5ft push) reduce the cooldown of Active Encounters of everyone within 20ft of the GWF by 2seconds.
- Single Target Encounters do 5% more damage for every party member within 10ft of your target and generate 25% more AP.
Ideas like this aside from my idea of a put to sleep type of strike or shout is what I expected with changes. Thumbs up Copti!
Why give them single target to compensate? They are as the name suggests a CONTROL wizard. That alone is enough, if they can put 30 mobs in the air at all times why are you wanting them to get a damage buff?
I personally don't care much...Im a melee guy, will probably never play a control wizard (well, perhaps much later on). but if their overall DPS isn't high, then there's no reason to nerf the AoE and not compensate. that's simple balance. I care for them for the same reason they should care for my GWF. they don't need unfair nerfs any more then we do.
now if they're DPS is off the scale, or OP, then it probably isn't needed. whatever works. we just need the 5 cap eliminated...the whole idea is simply stupid. adding extra utility through a buff or better target control (real taunt, real pull, etc) would be good too. but the 5 cap is bad...it's like giving a ranged class a ton of ranged abilities, but then saying they can't use them unless they're in melee range. sort of eliminates the idea of them being a "ranged class"
But I digress....everyone here knows this. Hope Cryptic sees it. we aren't broke...we just need a bit more then they gave us. too much, and we become FOTM, which i hate. ill quit a class if it becomes the fanboi of EZ moders. I like how the GWF feels atm. we just need to fit in with everyone else in the run.
The best part about these kinds of threads is that you get the people who talk about how everybody in the thread is awful at playing their class, but none of these people feel the need to explain what people commonly do wrong, or write a half-decent guide, or much of anything.
What to say to that? Seeing people still use Flourish when they aren't instigator. Watching level 60's use SS against 6 mobs. Puging often enough to exceed being grouped with more then 30 other GWF's and only seeing 5 slams out of all of them combined? It's only been in the last week that I've started even seeing people time their Takedowns on the mid-sized mobs to stop an attack. Having to actually ask GWF's to do aoe damage?
Even answering questions doesn't seem to help. It's all turducken time at biggersen's.
You don't increase the knowledge pool of the game by not telling people what they're doing wrong, though. Write a guide, make sure it isn't absolutely terrible like three or four of the GWF guides are. People will read it, do better, and then they will be in a position to tell other people that they're doing it wrong.
Common knowledge is wrong we have end game geared GWF and they top the damage meter's now, GWF's are becoming more desired in groups than TR's, it just takes awhile for the community to realise and the player's to adapt to new build's.
This. I've been doing awesome in PvP and PvE post patch, even though I'd say I was pretty beast before it. I soloed FH boss the other day when the rest of the party went down, so don't agree with the OP at all. One thing I will say, though, is the community hasn't come to terms with it yet, but part of it is because there are so many terrible GWF players out there. I've seen so many mistakes in PvP and PvE via build type. Outside of guild, I can definitely verify I've been IMMEDIATELY booted from T2s even before the party specd my gear. I was kicked out as soon as they saw what I was, when I queued again, it was the SAME group, and all the GF said was "don't need GWF". Kicked. I know this is a complaint of many GWFs, but that's what a guild is for, best to play with players you know sometimes, pugging is always a risk from so many different angles.
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
How about giving some of the GWF's skills a knock-back effect too then?
And then when they make yet another DPS class they will need a skill to push things too?
No, this is not a solution to the problem, because being able to push mobs off a cliff instead of killing them IS THE problem.
And then when they make yet another DPS class they will need a skill to push things too?
No, this is not a solution to the problem, because being able to push mobs off a cliff instead of killing them IS THE problem.
This is a nearsighted view of the issues. The problem is that trash doesn't offer enough for it to feel worthwhile (or for people to not push things off). Other games, you can generally make enough from the trash's gold to afford repair bills. Obviously we don't have repair bills in this game, so in lieu of that we have potions and kits. But without enough cash from trash mobs, we go broke over time (thus enforcing gold as a currency you trade AD for).
Change the motivation of trash mobs from only being "get past them" and things will improve for not on GWFs, but general balance of the game.
TL;DR Trash needs to be incentivized for other classes to care enough to kill it.
I bet the people looking down on GWF are the same ones QQin on the forums about GWF being redicilus OP in pvp.
I've run several Dungeons on mine with 2 other GWF's a CW and a Cleric, much smother runs then having 2 TR's and 2 CW's. I dunno why, but the TR's and CW seem to think that the game revolve around their classes while the remaining ones seems to be happy with whatever.
I bet the people looking down on GWF are the same ones QQin on the forums about GWF being redicilus OP in pvp.
I've run several Dungeons on mine with 2 other GWF's a CW and a Cleric, much smother runs then having 2 TR's and 2 CW's. I dunno why, but the TR's and CW seem to think that the game revolve around their classes while the remaining ones seems to be happy with whatever.
that's cause u look from the 9k gs perspective. Ppl who say 2 tr 2 cw(or 1 cw 1 conqueror\tactitian)Cw 1 dc are looking at dungeons from 12k+ gs perspective. with gpf cw debuffs adds just fine while 2 cw's make adds stunned\up in the air 100% of the time. tactitian gives 60% power increase, cleric gives ridiculous stats as well. next of course is 1 half orc\1 drow TR executioners pair with perfect vorpals and proper rotations. Spider run for example is a 10-12 minute run to the last boss and 2 min last boss.
Carnage TR Dragon shard - retired? hell yea it's retired along with Nevewinter
Seze - Rogue - Necropolis - RIFT
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nexdineMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
They are. We just give them the crappy dread drops and be done with it. (Sword Knot from second boss, t-2 cruddo Final boss Two handers. > CN weapons.) It saves everyone a huge headache. We can take them and wipe over and over again, or we take 2 GF's and make millions on....
You're pretty much what's wrong with all MMO's.
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nexdineMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The issue is... people like punting mobs off the cliffs instead of actually kill it. Until Cryptic addresses that concern we will be treated like 2nd class citizens. Or maybe they actually design a dungeon without any cliffs or chasm to punt mobs into. Damage wise we're in a pretty good place now.. I'm always rank 1 or 2 in the damage department.
I can agree with kar ( GWF job to run back and pickup the person who cant run through ) spider just get something else and make the run easier. It is not just the punting of mobs, its the whole lack of damage (stop looking at the **** pain giver) for the fact GWF are supposed to be the AOE class they do pathetic damage if anyone can even get close to them in damage. if you see a TR close to you it means your doing 1/5 his damage (5 mobs hit per swing vs his 1) four things that are killing the class at the moment
1. Target cap, on an AOE centric class its <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>
2. Damage per mob hit reduction, who was the moron that thought of this?
3. Reduced damage on Unstopable.... wait we get madder and hit weaker? (yes i realize how this partially makes up for it with crits in same amount of time bleeds *sort of* and weapon enchants but still wtf)
4. Worst at wills in the game, and once they get rid of the bug that is animation cancel (they could not have honestly wanted people to use this) GWF wont have a leg to stand on.
I bet the people looking down on GWF are the same ones QQin on the forums about GWF being redicilus OP in pvp.
I've run several Dungeons on mine with 2 other GWF's a CW and a Cleric, much smother runs then having 2 TR's and 2 CW's. I dunno why, but the TR's and CW seem to think that the game revolve around their classes while the remaining ones seems to be happy with whatever.
..happy with the scrapings? Wonderful.
Actually, a lot of CWs would love the opportunity to just do balls-out DPS and be laid-back and irresponsible. I think you're confusing the fact that other players want CWs and TRs for what they bring to the table with the fact that they don't pick you.
Stop whinging about the dps..dps was fine before balance patch. Just the utility side of things needed a buff not damage..lmao at the whingers making it worse for good gwf players.
Stop whinging about the dps..dps was fine before balance patch. Just the utility side of things needed a buff not damage..lmao at the whingers making it worse for good gwf players.
I am pretty sure it is whining and whiners. But never mind, rogues never learn how to spell anyway.
They also pretty much don't know what they are talking about as well.
Good DPS? Yup. That happens when you compare a 13k GWF with a 9.5k TR.
Mmm, I also believe GWF is very bad at PVE, but on the other side in PVP i have yet to lose against a different class at 1vs1. Only class I have trouble with is GF and of course other GWF
I am pretty sure it is whining and whiners. But never mind, rogues never learn how to spell anyway.
They also pretty much don't know what they are talking about as well.
whinge, n.
orig. Sc. and dial.
A whine, esp. a peevish complaint. -- The Oxford English Dictionary
Still, GWFs are famous for their restricted vocabulary, right? Of course not, making linguistic distinctions based on in-game class would just be idiotic. Shame on me.
whinge, n.
orig. Sc. and dial.
A whine, esp. a peevish complaint. -- The Oxford English Dictionary
Still, GWFs are famous for their restricted vocabulary, right? Of course not, making linguistic distinctions based on in-game class would just be idiotic. Shame on me.
Isn't this merely a case of US and UK casual slang being different?
Isn't this merely a case of US and UK casual slang being different?
It's not really slang. It's a perfectly normal word, more common in British English than American, but present in both. "aierrs" took the opportunity to highlight his ignorance in an amusingly self-pwning way, rather than simply googling
Back on topic.. I do think that GWFs need a better Unique Selling Point (gah). A good GWF, well specced, played and geared, can be a total damage beast. However, that's a lot of implied "if". Some valued party tricks would help sell the class as something worth bringing along.
I mean, I actually like GWFs, try to get one in my groups when I can, to increase boss DPS. I also like the fact that a mediocre GWF should die less than a mediocre TR (you always have to plan for mediocrity when taking unknown players). However, I can see it being hard to sell to the twitchy ADHD "LF2M DPS SPIDER 11K GS PLUS STONE EXP ONLY" crowd, who require easy mode crutches everywhere to stop them throwing their rusks.
I know, the tyranny of the majority view is what's at fault there, but we have to be pragmatic. People are going to keep being... less bright, and less.. competent (struggling to stay polite here). Cryptic need to find a way to make it easy for even people like that to want a GWF.
They aren't really good offtanks- and even if they were, no bosses really need a real tank anyway, so the GF is a better add tank. The CW is also a better use of a slot for add control. The TR does more single target DPS. Sometimes a really good GWF can do good AoE dps, if the player is bringing their "A" game, but it's still less safe for the group than adding a second CW to the group- as adds being attacked by a good CW die fairly fast, and don't pose as much of a threat. What GWFs are for is still a bit of a mystery.
My wish? I'd like to see them develop more as a really good high survivability melee AoE DPS, for the inevitable future maps where you can't just throw everything off the edge*. However, I am not holding my breath.
* Before anyone rages, this is an intended mechanic, just Cryptic didn't really think its intentions through too well.
whinge, n.
orig. Sc. and dial.
A whine, esp. a peevish complaint. -- The Oxford English Dictionary
Still, GWFs are famous for their restricted vocabulary, right? Of course not, making linguistic distinctions based on in-game class would just be idiotic. Shame on me.
Yes, shame on you. its call role playing. I would assume rogues in DnD to be scoundrels that most probably wouldn't take a lesson or 2 about language... That's what I meant too
Also, ya. GWF don't really read a lot too. I guess you are a CW then. Why the hell are you here!!
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greenwood0825Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 11Arc User
edited July 2013
I have a suggestion, the thing we need via mechanic to really balance us is a debuff system, we need to be able to reduce healing received and our abilities that increase damage done by at wills and encounters applied to the rest of the group. A great weapon fighter rage and power needs to be so great it pushes his whole team forward.
Also, ya. GWF don't really read a lot too. I guess you are a CW then. Why the hell are you here!!
It's part of an evil espionage plot. Don't tell anyone.
(Actually, I have a Cleric, and Wizard and a GWF )
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greenwood0825Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 11Arc User
edited July 2013
100% agree. I am so tired of exploits, I just want to run dungeons. I want to Q into a freaking random and run a **** dungeon. Hey neverwinter you see the Wow dungeon finder q? It's a great system steal it.
No offense, but it's this type of mentality that's keeping the class buried under ground. I have a 60 GWF, and I really enjoy playing it. When I join my buddies in T2s, I know it is not because we needed a GWF. If the DC or CW goes AFK or disconnects, the entire party needs to stop and wait. However if it was the GWF, the party keeps on trucking. I am not saying the class is useless, but certainly not providing any crucial function.
The devs took the easy way out in the last patch and knew that the majority of players will be happy just because they are seeing bigger numbers on the screen and moving up the Damage meter. All those GWF players who constantly complained about the DPS of the class, got what they wanted. But doing an extra 5/10/15% damage was NEVER the real issue of the class. Stop asking for more DPS, and demand useful utilities.
I am beginning to believe that there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the class, but rather the content itself. Every T2 is tailored for CWs. To prove my point, imagine a new T2 where the majority of trash mobs are CC immune. When such a content exists, GWFs will be a lot more useful.
Comments
Ideas like this aside from my idea of a put to sleep type of strike or shout is what I expected with changes. Thumbs up Copti!
I personally don't care much...Im a melee guy, will probably never play a control wizard (well, perhaps much later on). but if their overall DPS isn't high, then there's no reason to nerf the AoE and not compensate. that's simple balance. I care for them for the same reason they should care for my GWF. they don't need unfair nerfs any more then we do.
now if they're DPS is off the scale, or OP, then it probably isn't needed. whatever works. we just need the 5 cap eliminated...the whole idea is simply stupid. adding extra utility through a buff or better target control (real taunt, real pull, etc) would be good too. but the 5 cap is bad...it's like giving a ranged class a ton of ranged abilities, but then saying they can't use them unless they're in melee range. sort of eliminates the idea of them being a "ranged class"
But I digress....everyone here knows this. Hope Cryptic sees it. we aren't broke...we just need a bit more then they gave us. too much, and we become FOTM, which i hate. ill quit a class if it becomes the fanboi of EZ moders. I like how the GWF feels atm. we just need to fit in with everyone else in the run.
Even answering questions doesn't seem to help. It's all turducken time at biggersen's.
1) Equip big honking sword.
2) Wade into 10 mobs and proceed to swing big honking sword.
3) .....
4) Profit
This. I've been doing awesome in PvP and PvE post patch, even though I'd say I was pretty beast before it. I soloed FH boss the other day when the rest of the party went down, so don't agree with the OP at all. One thing I will say, though, is the community hasn't come to terms with it yet, but part of it is because there are so many terrible GWF players out there. I've seen so many mistakes in PvP and PvE via build type. Outside of guild, I can definitely verify I've been IMMEDIATELY booted from T2s even before the party specd my gear. I was kicked out as soon as they saw what I was, when I queued again, it was the SAME group, and all the GF said was "don't need GWF". Kicked. I know this is a complaint of many GWFs, but that's what a guild is for, best to play with players you know sometimes, pugging is always a risk from so many different angles.
No, this is not a solution to the problem, because being able to push mobs off a cliff instead of killing them IS THE problem.
This is a nearsighted view of the issues. The problem is that trash doesn't offer enough for it to feel worthwhile (or for people to not push things off). Other games, you can generally make enough from the trash's gold to afford repair bills. Obviously we don't have repair bills in this game, so in lieu of that we have potions and kits. But without enough cash from trash mobs, we go broke over time (thus enforcing gold as a currency you trade AD for).
Change the motivation of trash mobs from only being "get past them" and things will improve for not on GWFs, but general balance of the game.
TL;DR Trash needs to be incentivized for other classes to care enough to kill it.
I've run several Dungeons on mine with 2 other GWF's a CW and a Cleric, much smother runs then having 2 TR's and 2 CW's. I dunno why, but the TR's and CW seem to think that the game revolve around their classes while the remaining ones seems to be happy with whatever.
that's cause u look from the 9k gs perspective. Ppl who say 2 tr 2 cw(or 1 cw 1 conqueror\tactitian)Cw 1 dc are looking at dungeons from 12k+ gs perspective. with gpf cw debuffs adds just fine while 2 cw's make adds stunned\up in the air 100% of the time. tactitian gives 60% power increase, cleric gives ridiculous stats as well. next of course is 1 half orc\1 drow TR executioners pair with perfect vorpals and proper rotations. Spider run for example is a 10-12 minute run to the last boss and 2 min last boss.
Seze - Rogue - Necropolis -
You're pretty much what's wrong with all MMO's.
There's no way, no how is the one-shot ledgekilling of half a room an intended effect.
If it's not intended, why isn't it removed then? And why did the devs confirm that it is in fact intended? Who is the crazy one here?
1. Target cap, on an AOE centric class its <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>
2. Damage per mob hit reduction, who was the moron that thought of this?
3. Reduced damage on Unstopable.... wait we get madder and hit weaker? (yes i realize how this partially makes up for it with crits in same amount of time bleeds *sort of* and weapon enchants but still wtf)
4. Worst at wills in the game, and once they get rid of the bug that is animation cancel (they could not have honestly wanted people to use this) GWF wont have a leg to stand on.
..happy with the scrapings? Wonderful.
Actually, a lot of CWs would love the opportunity to just do balls-out DPS and be laid-back and irresponsible. I think you're confusing the fact that other players want CWs and TRs for what they bring to the table with the fact that they don't pick you.
I am pretty sure it is whining and whiners. But never mind, rogues never learn how to spell anyway.
They also pretty much don't know what they are talking about as well.
Good DPS? Yup. That happens when you compare a 13k GWF with a 9.5k TR.
whinge, n.
orig. Sc. and dial.
A whine, esp. a peevish complaint.
-- The Oxford English Dictionary
Still, GWFs are famous for their restricted vocabulary, right? Of course not, making linguistic distinctions based on in-game class would just be idiotic. Shame on me.
Isn't this merely a case of US and UK casual slang being different?
It's not really slang. It's a perfectly normal word, more common in British English than American, but present in both. "aierrs" took the opportunity to highlight his ignorance in an amusingly self-pwning way, rather than simply googling
Back on topic.. I do think that GWFs need a better Unique Selling Point (gah). A good GWF, well specced, played and geared, can be a total damage beast. However, that's a lot of implied "if". Some valued party tricks would help sell the class as something worth bringing along.
I mean, I actually like GWFs, try to get one in my groups when I can, to increase boss DPS. I also like the fact that a mediocre GWF should die less than a mediocre TR (you always have to plan for mediocrity when taking unknown players). However, I can see it being hard to sell to the twitchy ADHD "LF2M DPS SPIDER 11K GS PLUS STONE EXP ONLY" crowd, who require easy mode crutches everywhere to stop them throwing their rusks.
I know, the tyranny of the majority view is what's at fault there, but we have to be pragmatic. People are going to keep being... less bright, and less.. competent (struggling to stay polite here). Cryptic need to find a way to make it easy for even people like that to want a GWF.
They aren't really good offtanks- and even if they were, no bosses really need a real tank anyway, so the GF is a better add tank. The CW is also a better use of a slot for add control. The TR does more single target DPS. Sometimes a really good GWF can do good AoE dps, if the player is bringing their "A" game, but it's still less safe for the group than adding a second CW to the group- as adds being attacked by a good CW die fairly fast, and don't pose as much of a threat. What GWFs are for is still a bit of a mystery.
My wish? I'd like to see them develop more as a really good high survivability melee AoE DPS, for the inevitable future maps where you can't just throw everything off the edge*. However, I am not holding my breath.
* Before anyone rages, this is an intended mechanic, just Cryptic didn't really think its intentions through too well.
Yes, shame on you.
Also, ya. GWF don't really read a lot too. I guess you are a CW then. Why the hell are you here!!
It's part of an evil espionage plot. Don't tell anyone.
(Actually, I have a Cleric, and Wizard and a GWF