Well, considering they have said in interviews they want everyone to use potions, that's not a hard connection to make
It is possible, but even so it doesnt explain the rest of the disadvantages & nerfs of the class which not suppose any economical advantage... please let me consider some samples:
Cleanse
Cleanse has been almost totally destroyed: no longer removes recently revived debuff, now it has a 20-second cooldown whenever it removes a debuff, now it only removes one debuff at a time.
Pre Patch: Group PvE: last Boss fight, when debuffs "rain" over the team,a cleric with cleanse had the possibility, if properly feated and well played, to keep the party in shape. If party wiped, applying sunburst at the campfire, the team was quickly in shape to retry. PvP: the only way to debuff a number of buffs of the other classes which do them unCCable, unstoppable, untargetable, etc, etc, etc.
Post Patch: Group PvE, last boss fight, if lucky, fight lenght fairly increased (there you have more potions), party wiped: everybody waiting at the campfire for many minutes, wasting server time (that is a valuable resource, the company is losing money when a party stays idle at a campfire), wasting the patience of the players, wasting the selfsteem of the healer. No potions -yet- for that (I almost can hear the devs scratching when writing down a note for the next nerf). I would respec to remove cleanse from my feats, but I am not putting a single dollar at the game until we get solutions, (as most of the DCs are doing now). PvP: if the class suxed before in PvP, now the sux level is just incredible.
Overall: the company is selling a few more potions, but server resources are being wasted: losing money
Movement
Some games consider the Race: Elves run more than humans, humans more than dwarfs, etc
Some games consider the Stats: high DEX gives speed, high CON gives the possibility to keep the Speed, etc
Some games consider the encumberment: people in cloth runs more than in leather, leather more than in mail, etc
Neverwinter consider the WTF: Every class run like deers, except the DC, who drags his/her *ss after the party anchoring them.
A strategy to sell mounts? NO. First, no mounts in dungeons, just in skirmishes and PvP. And, because the mount will increase a x% of the speed of the character, asuming you are playing with people in similar level, GS, experience, etc, almost everybody will have a mount of the same lvl; result:
- Walking: DC just sux
- Mount Lvl 1: The other classes with higher speed receive MORE bonus from the same mount (x% of HIGHER speed) than the DC (same x% of LOWER speed). DC sux even more.
- Mount LvL 2: the same, but worst. The x% increases even more, increasing the speed difference even more, the distance between rest of classes and DC when running even more. Now DC is really and royally suxing.
- Mount Lvl 3: Finally, the DC spends 3500 zen in a lvl3 mount and then reachs the paragon of suxing when the speed difference bonus gets the maximum, (and combined with some other classes feats to increase their movement are acting most of the time).
Any RATIONAL explanation? Any reasoning? Why this "pay2sux" strategy, please? If we dont buy mounts, company is losing money.
Defense
Consider two similar mail armors, similar level, similar scalemail, similar stats in Power, recovery, etc... well, if the mail is for a GWF it will have about 2 AC more than if the mail is for a DC.
Well...That is one of the (frequent) details in this game what really gets me really angry. Nothing justify this.
Now you can answer with a L2P if you wish. I really doesnt feel concerned anymore. I prefer by far to be playing than ranting at the forums, but the situation has becomed really stupid.
I don't think that nerfing AS was really the problem, and the more I play the more I wish they'd nerf it further, or completely rework it. The problem is the lack of other viable options to replace it in some encounters.
So, I hope they nerf it again. Maybe 1/2 of what it is now. Then the rest of the class healing/defense buff options can be brought up to cover for it, resulting in a much more dynamic play where there's more skill and activity to it than just laying down a fresh AS when it's up as your #1 priority over everything.
I don't think that nerfing AS was really the problem, and the more I play the more I wish they'd nerf it further, or completely rework it. The problem is the lack of other viable options to replace it in some encounters.
So, I hope they nerf it again. Maybe 1/2 of what it is now. Then the rest of the class healing/defense buff options can be brought up to cover for it, resulting in a much more dynamic play where there's more skill and activity to it than just laying down a fresh AS when it's up as your #1 priority over everything.
Sure. And, when nerfing AS again, why not to reduce sunburst effect in half? and that moontouched Hallowed Ground is really overpowered too, better remove it. And reduce the effect of Forgemaster Flame to the same than astral seal or even less. And, as grand final, why dont remove the last buffs and debuffs of the class at tier 1 and 2? better do put lifesteal too in every gear instead power or critical, that would be in line with the rest of current abilities of the DC too. And lets wait some unknown buff would arrive some day to ammend all the disaster.
Very mature response, impressive. Except that you know as well as I do that the class is all about the Astral Shield in pve. Any other viable builds without it that can clear most, if not all, of the T2 content? Didn't think so. It's a boring spell that promotes boring gameplay and rewards boring skill choices, and the class is ineffective as a main healer without it.
Clearly we're expected to be the main healer, I don't think anybody disputes that. Yet to have such massive damage reduction and huge healing in one ability, with every other ability falling far short, and having this one ability be ground targetted...it's a crutch for an otherwise ineffective healer. Go ahead, try to clear your T2s without it. Don't talent for it, don't select it as a skill, and see what happens.
Oh, and I took a peek through the master list of builds stickied at the top of the forum. Common consensus? It's a "must have". So, roughly 2/3 of the time your job is cast this, stand in it. Cast this, stand in it. Hey everybody, I cast it, stand in it! Where's the skill in that? Any dynamic, active gameplay? Thought required? I cast it! Stand in it!
Preferable to "don't cast it, die, party wipe", though surely? We use it because every other heal skill is pretty terrible.
Making other skills more viable = good plan.
Making Astral Shield less viable = bad plan.
(also, I wouldn't stand in it, I'd stick it where the tanks are. Over there, in the scary red place. I'd only go over there to build AP/DP with a sunburst)
It is preferable, currently. In fact, it's mandatory, currently, which was my point and you seem to agree with it.
It's not dynamic, it requires no timing or judgement. If the cooldown is refreshed, cast it divine. Repeat every time during a boss fight. You might hold off for a second or two because a boss just threw your tank halfway across the room, as the closest thing to using your brain that it requires.
I'm not saying that it should simply be removed or turned into pure garbage. But why offer a selection, if there's really no selection? Planning on pve content? You MUST HAVE THIS, and talent for it. Period. Because it is SO good that everything else pales in comparison. How about taking some of that so good and spreading it around, or simply reducing the encounter slots for a cleric to 2, and autolocking this into the 3rd?
Let's face it. Every boss encounter in t2, and probably all of t1 as well (unless you're massively overgeared, maybe) requires this spell. So you cast it, and people stand in it. You cast it and people stand in it. Cooldown up, cast it, somebody stand in it! This is not worthwhile play. Which do you think would lead to greater long term satisfaction and repeat play for clerics:
1. I cast it, hey everybody, stand in the blue circle!
2: Reacting to the encounter, topping off health bars, throwing out damage prevention, reacting to what happens minute by minute, keeping the entire fight fluid and with variety more so than just casting it and people standing in it?
Making other skills more viable, good plan. We agree here.
Making astral shield less viable, at the same time (not different patches), is where we disagree. As long as this has a mandatory spot on the bar like it does now, it's too good. Spread the goodness around the rest of the abilities and bring this down while bringing them up.
As for the "I wouldn't stand in it" I was referring more to a generic shout out of "Hey gusy, i cast it stand in it okays!". How the developers let this get to release with it in it's current condition leaves me somewhat less than optimistic for where the game is going.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited July 2013
Spells which are more difficult or effect less people should be far more effective.
Honestly Astral Shield is fine where it is but the other spells need to be brought up to par and scaled correctly for Tier 2.
As Gelatin said having a spell be an outright requirement in order for a class to function is just bad especially because the power is, as he stated, promoting boring gamplay.
The goal should be to make it so Clerics can, at the least, use three spells, even if they are all healing based, and not select Astral Shield and do well. In game design the easy to use spells such as Astral Shield at low levels to ease the learning curb and taper off at higher levels. We have the opposite effect and obtain the most effective and brainless healing spell at level 50 and all the difficult to cast heals are outright outdated.
The more challenging a skill is to use effectively the more beneficial it should be and Astral Shield and the rest of the cleric powers violates this game design logic.
Very mature response, impressive. Except that you know as well as I do that the class is all about the Astral Shield in pve. Any other viable builds without it that can clear most, if not all, of the T2 content? Didn't think so. It's a boring spell that promotes boring gameplay and rewards boring skill choices, and the class is ineffective as a main healer without it.
Clearly we're expected to be the main healer, I don't think anybody disputes that. Yet to have such massive damage reduction and huge healing in one ability, with every other ability falling far short, and having this one ability be ground targetted...it's a crutch for an otherwise ineffective healer. Go ahead, try to clear your T2s without it. Don't talent for it, don't select it as a skill, and see what happens.
Oh, and I took a peek through the master list of builds stickied at the top of the forum. Common consensus? It's a "must have". So, roughly 2/3 of the time your job is cast this, stand in it. Cast this, stand in it. Hey everybody, I cast it, stand in it! Where's the skill in that? Any dynamic, active gameplay? Thought required? I cast it! Stand in it!
Hehe....maturity -or even sanity- is optional. (I play DC, you know)
If You look through my message, perhaps You will realize (sorry for the tone, it is the only way to get the people stop that precious second to read, and sometimes to think, about the content of the message itself) what I mean is:
The problem is not ONLY Astral shield
If You examine the builds and the guides you will discover that effectively, AS is on all of them but that SB is ALSO in all of them, and Moonstoned Hallowed Ground is on about 90% of them (since the "patch"), and Forgemaster in about the same.
If we would use Your line of reasoning, ALL of THEM are proper candidates for a future nerf, as ALL of THEM sit in most of the toolbars of the DCs all the time.
Because (it is sad to recognise) these are the only ones that work and scale (at the moment) more or less properly with the game level. The rest of powers and most of feats are or bugged, or rendered useless when leveling comparing their effects with the damage from the final bosses (and their legions of Adds) fights, or with the abilities and states granted to the rest of classes. The result is:
First, the necesity to have different builds for PvP and PvE, (and even so PvP dont work at all for 90% of them)
Second, most PvE builds are esentially the same, (as many PvP builds are very similar too) as no possible variation of abilities. If the rest of powers and feats would function and/or scale properly, we would see more variety of builds, appropiate for the different styles of play.
I am not telling this by feeling, but after some hours of calculations: The formulae for the calculation of the effect of every power in terms of damage/healing are in the thread of game mechanics, as the formulae for the rest of status, based on the developers tooltips. My DC spreadsheet has about 9 pages yet (as in the current status of affairs the things are not so simple for DCs than for any other class, you need to squeeze it an awful lot looking for almost every possible sinergy and to remove all the bugged or inefficient powers and feats if you wish a really viable build different to the existent ones; and most of the guides and advise you can find at the moment are not really based in calculation and really tested at the game, but based in feelings...some are good, but others are deeply misleading and plain wrong)
By the way, as I have not find yet this info at the forums: The parameters You need for the formulae in your current configuration and level: the weapon coefficient corresponding to your weapon, and the power effect coeficient for every different ability, you can calculate them with simple testing:
at the trade of blades dummies (damage)
or with a pet (healing) in a controlled environment, like an appropiate foundry quest.
or just wearing items and looking the stats
Just get a bunch of unexpensive green items at the auction house to be able to check properly the effect of acumulating (as an example, to test really life steal effect I did that). For the level/class coefficient, You can use the mean value of the two limits that come with every formula -it worked for me at least-.
The only ability you can not test in that way is the speed; but anybody who played any quest in a long distance dungeon can check by (sour) experience that the DC is the slowest by very far.
Spells which are more difficult or effect less people should be far more effective.
Honestly Astral Shield is fine where it is but the other spells need to be brought up to par and scaled correctly for Tier 2.
As Gelatin said having a spell be an outright requirement in order for a class to function is just bad especially because the power is, as he stated, promoting boring gamplay.
The goal should be to make it so Clerics can, at the least, use three spells, even if they are all healing based, and not select Astral Shield and do well. In game design the easy to use spells such as Astral Shield at low levels to ease the learning curb and taper off at higher levels. We have the opposite effect and obtain the most effective and brainless healing spell at level 50 and all the difficult to cast heals are outright outdated.
The more challenging a skill is to use effectively the more beneficial it should be and Astral Shield and the rest of the cleric powers violates this game design logic.
OMG! Finally.
Now the question is: When we can expect the other spells would be brought to par and scaled correctly? Any reasonable date?
Now the question is: When we can expect the other spells would be brought to par and scaled correctly? Any reasonable date?
Finally what?
Sorry to disappoint you but ambisinisterr is a forum mod. That is to say he (or she sorry not sure which) is a normal player just like you or me who takes on a voluntary role to help keep the forums in check. He does not work for the company in any position that holds any sway or say over what if any changes are made to any class, skills or abilities.
The only reason I post this is because you appear to have taken his personal opinion as a dev response.
shadowmystryMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 28Arc User
edited July 2013
Well the way I see it with my cleric (10k + stone) is that if im in a group with ppl that don't stand in red circles my healing is enough and they don't need pots.
I think astral shield is right the way it is now... but if the cleric is really supposed to be a support class... then we need either more boost group abilities or higher dmg abilities.
Standard boss fight for me:
Drop big poo circle - buff
Place blue poo circle - heal & buff
Cast poo circle around me - heal & dmg
Place and cast yellow poo circle - heal
And tag all creatures with little poo circles that I poo at them - dmg and let group heal themselves
Might even throw a few tiny poo DoT's - dmg over time
I'm guessing pretty much the same as most... maybe not. But im torn a bit. In one hand I like that group knows, hey cleric can't heal us if we mess up (less blame my way but it does feel like the cleric class really isn't needed... can be replaced by pots and having more dps would make a lot of fights easier.
Potions don't mitigate damage, though. If you're running foresight+benefit of foresight and ticking heals on everyone with astral seals and sunbursts and stuff, then pretty much your entire party is running at a constant 11% damage reduction. And that's before all the mitigation from hallowed ground and AS. These are numbers you'll never see in the end stats, of course, so it's difficult to gauge their effectiveness without using a combat log parser. I imagine even without foresight, near-constant damage reduction from HG/AS amounts to a ton of prevented damage by the end of a dungeon.
I love this game, and I've been playing MMOs for 15 years now, mostly heal classes. This game brings a lot of new and unique features and ideas to the industry and I give credit that it due there. I also love the challenge of playing a cleric right now, I love how its not a heal-bot and its not a mindless role. I agree that it can be a stressful class to play, and even that gets the adrenaline going a bit, which can be fun. That all being said, I still have gripes. I wish more of our skills were worth using. we rely on things like sunburst because even though the heal part is HAMSTER, it will still heal without struggling to target the person hidden behind 100 other entities and dodging. I really, really like the idea of heals are targets at the 1 or 2 people in group with the lowest health, maybe heals for a big number if the target is really low on life, and heals just a little if they're over some higher threshold. I also recommend making the majority of heals group-targeted, unless youre gonna give us a large heal worth the struggle of finding the target. The other idea would be to link more and/or larger heals to our dps abilities. I would love to be able to keep my group alive by with my dps output at least on trash, boss fights prolly should take more effort / thought, etc. This game has so much potential, please don't stop the creative ingenuity now Cryptic =-)
Sorry to disappoint you but ambisinisterr is a forum mod. That is to say he (or she sorry not sure which) is a normal player just like you or me who takes on a voluntary role to help keep the forums in check. He does not work for the company in any position that holds any sway or say over what if any changes are made to any class, skills or abilities.
The only reason I post this is because you appear to have taken his personal opinion as a dev response.
I love this game, and I've been playing MMOs for 15 years now, mostly heal classes. This game brings a lot of new and unique features and ideas to the industry and I give credit that it due there. I also love the challenge of playing a cleric right now, I love how its not a heal-bot and its not a mindless role. I agree that it can be a stressful class to play, and even that gets the adrenaline going a bit, which can be fun. That all being said, I still have gripes. I wish more of our skills were worth using. we rely on things like sunburst because even though the heal part is HAMSTER, it will still heal without struggling to target the person hidden behind 100 other entities and dodging. I really, really like the idea of heals are targets at the 1 or 2 people in group with the lowest health, maybe heals for a big number if the target is really low on life, and heals just a little if they're over some higher threshold. I also recommend making the majority of heals group-targeted, unless youre gonna give us a large heal worth the struggle of finding the target. The other idea would be to link more and/or larger heals to our dps abilities. I would love to be able to keep my group alive by with my dps output at least on trash, boss fights prolly should take more effort / thought, etc. This game has so much potential, please don't stop the creative ingenuity now Cryptic =-)
I loved this game too.
Until I really realised HOW BAD implemented it was:
First, some of the key abilities defining the classes are just NOT implemented (even if they are showed at the character creation as a reason to choose that class).
In the case of DC are the Control bonus and the Control Resistance Bonus. For other classes, look at the specific threads.
To cope with that, most Control effects are now automatic, and some classes (not the DC) and bosses has been supplied with Control inmunity, by feats, encounters or even permanently.
The correct way of working for any attack is: Calculate intended result (generally damage or healing, but control also) of the attack, with a random component (the min-max damages come from there). Then, add the Bonus to the attack if any. Then it reaches the target, who applies his/her resistances (if any) to mitigate. In the case of control effects, the duration is usually where bonus and mitigation is applied.
At the moment a char of the proper class with 0 bonuses but a feat or encounter can permastun most other classes no matter if the target has even Maximum resistance, causing the most severe imbalance in PvP.
Second, is not even an implementation issue but basic maths: And it plagues most of the feats and passive powers from most classes, not only the DC feats and passives
Look, I will try to explain it plainly and clearly:
The effects in Feats and passives were thought to be ADDED. Example: if you put a feat point in weapon mastery meaning an increment of a 1%, it means than if the char has 10%, with the point in the feat he/she will have 11%. If You put 3 points, the final chance to land a critical will be 13%. Clear, fair and straightforward.
Now suppose instead doing the correct operation, what you are doing is incrementing the percentage FOR an 1%; that means if you have a 10%, to apply a point in the feat increment the value FOR a 1%, doing 10%*(1+0,01) = 10,01%; If you put three points at the feat, you get 10%*(1+0,03) = 10,03%; in both cases the increment is negligible and completely worthless. Because it is wrong. It is a MISTAKE.
I tested healing action with Healing word (it only worked in that and in bastion, not in the rest of healings) before the current "patch" and what happened was (you guess) multiplying instead adding. After the patch I didnt even try again as no sign of change, and to test it needs to respec.
And I have the strongest suspicions about foresight, greater fortune, etc because exactly the same reason.
The golden rule is "If You are not seeing the effect in your stats, MOST probably it is not working"
Then, please, anybody trying to give here some sound statement about upgrading the powers, balancing the abilities, whatever, please please, please, first be so kind to recommend Cryptic to hire somebody who did Maths at the High School for the job. Sad but true.
Designers not being able to do math is a proud 4E tradition.
Mmh...from Your perspective I am glad then they are working here and not at a more serious software thingie, like for NASA or for the utilities: We would have satellite crashes, grid black-outs and even Chernobyls in a daily basis and they would write threads saying it is working as intended and asking for feedback. At least here it is only the money from players and shareholders what is being dumped down the sink.
Well first off I think divinity astral shield should not heal, that much damage reduction along with healing is just too powerful.
However, if it is too be kept healing on divinity mode then I think that the damage reduction need to be less then that of the non-divine version. Simply put it needs to be a trade off, more damage reduction or less damage reduction but also some healing.
Ideally though I would love to see the divine version give crowd control resist and maybe an increased AoE (but with a little less damage reduction).
Now the question is: When we can expect the other spells would be brought to par and scaled correctly? Any reasonable date?
I main a cleric so I express my opinions based as a player who actively plays a cleric.
I'm not relaying any official word in this thread simply expressing my own opinions.
Pretty sure it's a HoT now (post patch). And thus, subject to righteousness. :-/
You are correct. Astral shield is a heal over time now. Personally I don't feel it should have any healing or regeneration, I would be perfectly happy if the divine version was simply a larger AoE or giving crowd control resist.
You are correct. Astral shield is a heal over time now. Personally I don't feel it should have any healing or regeneration, I would be perfectly happy if the divine version was simply a larger AoE or giving crowd control resist.
It is a HoT now, but the devs missed that HoT is able to give CRITICALS. It doesnt give crit now, and it doesnt proc the abilities which activate on crit; I think (too upsett now to do any more proper testing) it is also NOT working with the healing action Feat and I think is not working with Divine Fortune passive; in that aspect it continues working as a regeneration, but with 40% healing only for the DC who launched it. Great. Good Job. As intended.
Perfectly happy? well, at least it doesnt (yet) buff the enemy increasing their damage and debuff the party and yourself like Divine Glow or nothing at all, like Initiate of the Faith. That could be a cause for happiness.
By the way, I have observed that many classes do recover by themselves and suddenly from middle up to full health bar, pretty quickly (not instantly as if using potions, or slowly by rejuvenation potions, etc) during the combat. Has anybody compiled a complete list of the selfhealing abilities implemented for the REST of classes at the nerf?
I for one am playing other games until(?) they fix this class OR another MMO comes out that catches my interest. They have dragged this epic screw-up out so long though at this point I'm starting to not really care which happens first.
By the way, I have observed that many classes do recover by themselves and suddenly from middle up to full health bar, pretty quickly (not instantly as if using potions, or slowly by rejuvenation potions, etc) during the combat. Has anybody compiled a complete list of the selfhealing abilities implemented for the REST of classes at the nerf?
well when the other classes DO use potions, it seems the cleric actually doesn't need to heal as much.
-Rogues can heal themselves if they stack enough lifesteal.
-GF have fighter's recovery which is a nice skill.
-GWF have restoring strike which (to my knowledge) is utterly useless, however they do have unstoppable so with enough lifesteal they can heal themselves.
-CW have no skill that heals them but again, if they stack lifesteal they can heal themselves.
The cleric isn't a healbot like many people envision it. Even my healing spec one I've had people leave because I couldn't out heal their stupidity and they refused to use potions.
Also, I almost never see people using potions after combat. I see them running into the next fight with almost no HP left and they complain to the cleric when they die.
In the loading messages it does hint that potions are the best way to heal up after combat, because they really are they only have a cooldown when used in combat. Potions can heal you out of combat much much much faster then any cleric.
Basically the other classes need to learn to use their potions and not expect the cleric to be a healbot because I really don't think they were designed that way. Honestly I think some of their healing spells are really weak on purpose.
Just posting to say that I dropped my cleric today. I hated to do it as I enjoyed healing and helping so much and wanted to continue, but at level 48, I realized I was having much less fun than I did when leveling my GWF to 60. Much, MUCH less fun. It was do-able, but too frustrating and basically, without even bringing up the joke I always was in PvP, I simply got tired of dying to HAMSTER that shouldn't be able to touch a healer. I got sick of hearing "ping! ping! ping! ping! ping!" just to kill one stupid little nobody shooter add. It felt like constant work, and frankly like I should be getting paid, to study constantly to figure out how to use my feat/power points to begin to enjoy it. I hated to waste a point on a bugged power or feat. So many to wade through and so little pay off. I loved her, but I won't touch her again until I won't be a joke when playing her.
That is hilarious. I thought leveling a cleric was the easiest class yet, some fights took a little long sure, but I didn't die once until I reached level 60 dungeons, and healing the whole way was a cake walk. This was a post-patch reroll and could not have been more fun for me at least.
well when the other classes DO use potions, it seems the cleric actually doesn't need to heal as much.
-Rogues can heal themselves if they stack enough lifesteal.
-GF have fighter's recovery which is a nice skill.
-GWF have restoring strike which (to my knowledge) is utterly useless, however they do have unstoppable so with enough lifesteal they can heal themselves.
-CW have no skill that heals them but again, if they stack lifesteal they can heal themselves.
The cleric isn't a healbot like many people envision it. Even my healing spec one I've had people leave because I couldn't out heal their stupidity and they refused to use potions.
Also, I almost never see people using potions after combat. I see them running into the next fight with almost no HP left and they complain to the cleric when they die.
In the loading messages it does hint that potions are the best way to heal up after combat, because they really are they only have a cooldown when used in combat. Potions can heal you out of combat much much much faster then any cleric.
Basically the other classes need to learn to use their potions and not expect the cleric to be a healbot because I really don't think they were designed that way. Honestly I think some of their healing spells are really weak on purpose.
That is hilarious. I thought leveling a cleric was the easiest class yet, some fights took a little long sure, but I didn't die once until I reached level 60 dungeons, and healing the whole way was a cake walk. This was a post-patch reroll and could not have been more fun for me at least.
Lets see.
When soloing, the bosses and adds are the same for all the classes. The difficulty is tuned according to the level. That means the enemy is prepared to deal against a TR, a CW, a GWF, a GF of your same level and the corresponding pet.
Being so, the mitigation, the damage, the healpoints and the effects of the enemy are tuned to offer some difficulty to all the classes at the same level. That means they can deal with the DPS from TR, CW, GWF, with their movility, and at the same time to do the proper scaled damage, at least sufficent to avoid "cake walks" for them or the game would lost interest. GF has less (but even so, notable) DPS, but more survivability, they are thougher and can block or mitigate a good deal of damage, giving them time for their lower (but even so, high) DPS to defeat the enemy by patience and good play.
Enter the DC. In theory, the correct strategy would be: Debuff the enemy in order to mitigate at least a percentage of his attacks, buff yourself and pet to mitigate any damage reaching You and/or increasing your own damage (both by a percentage of your current defense and damage). Then, move, dodge, confide on your defense and then selfheal yourself in order to cope with the incoming damage and survive during the time it takes to defeat adds and boss. Nice, eh? a cake walk you would say....but then the implementation enters in the game:
First, most of your buffs and debuffs just dont work at all. AS worked, cleanse worked, Hallowed Ground worked. Now AS has been severily decreased (not only in duration time but 40%ed in selfhealing effect when in divinity so; and in soloing no stacking was possible); Cleanse is now utterly useless; only HG (and it is a daily) works properly up to this moment. The rest are mostly bugged or negligible effect. (If somebody has been able to REALLY test Forecast, with real data, I would think it could be a possible exception).
Second, moving and dodging. DC is the slowest (by far) class at the game; any other class, and most of the adds, can overrun and reach a DC with ease. Dodging, even with a high stamina from 20 STR, only grants a couple dodges with a sloooooow cooldown to avoid red zones; just trying to walk away from red areas is useless in 95% times. That means that even the best player in the world is entitled to receive a big amount of damage from reds when soloing. (in PvP, with stealth, undodgeable attacks, and no red areas from most attacks from the wizzies, the thing is just ridiculous)
Third, supposing that with a mix of good playing, kiting, moving and dodging like a spider over a hot plank, and a dose of luck, you are taking the minimum damage: Is your healing power sufficent to cope with it? the answer is usually NO. No heal bursts, just HoTs with small effects, and the DC is receiving just the 40% of them. 40% of a tiny thing is a really tiny thing. That means POTIONS. In fact that means the DC is the top consumer of potions at the game. And sometimes not even the puny healing + potions are able to cope with the incoming damage. By the way, the problem is not only the low effect of the powers, and the long cooldowns, it is that most related feats are also not working properly.
Fourth, your defense. Do you guess? yes, the worst of any class. TRs are able to take advantage of deflect, CW from magic, GF from heavy armor, but even the GWF, with mail armor exactly as a DC, receives better defense from it.
Ok, fifth: lets suppose the DC has overcomed the previous steps and is doing damage. Of course, the DC damage and DPS is the lowest (by very far) of any other class. To kill just an add usually means at least a dozen at-will hits and probaby an encounter or two. Usually sunburst or forgemaster (Because they both work -yet-). In the mean time, the boss and adds are doing their damage and red areas, of course.
Sixth: You have survived until this moment, the field is (at the moment) clean of adds and the DC start to deal with the boss; well, from level 38 onwards, the DC will discover then that some bosses just regenerate or life-steal faster than any DPS that any DC of that level can do. The fight takes a little long? sure, it takes forever (or until the DC is defeated). Solution: left the quest and return with two levels over the boss level (sometimes not even so).
Easiest class? fun to play in this way? a cake walk? Healing the whole way?
Have You really even tried to level a Cleric to 60? Please do it and return afterwards.
Comments
Well, considering they have said in interviews they want everyone to use potions, that's not a hard connection to make
It is possible, but even so it doesnt explain the rest of the disadvantages & nerfs of the class which not suppose any economical advantage... please let me consider some samples:
Cleanse
Cleanse has been almost totally destroyed: no longer removes recently revived debuff, now it has a 20-second cooldown whenever it removes a debuff, now it only removes one debuff at a time.
Pre Patch: Group PvE: last Boss fight, when debuffs "rain" over the team,a cleric with cleanse had the possibility, if properly feated and well played, to keep the party in shape. If party wiped, applying sunburst at the campfire, the team was quickly in shape to retry. PvP: the only way to debuff a number of buffs of the other classes which do them unCCable, unstoppable, untargetable, etc, etc, etc.
Post Patch: Group PvE, last boss fight, if lucky, fight lenght fairly increased (there you have more potions), party wiped: everybody waiting at the campfire for many minutes, wasting server time (that is a valuable resource, the company is losing money when a party stays idle at a campfire), wasting the patience of the players, wasting the selfsteem of the healer. No potions -yet- for that (I almost can hear the devs scratching when writing down a note for the next nerf). I would respec to remove cleanse from my feats, but I am not putting a single dollar at the game until we get solutions, (as most of the DCs are doing now). PvP: if the class suxed before in PvP, now the sux level is just incredible.
Movement
Some games consider the Race: Elves run more than humans, humans more than dwarfs, etc
Some games consider the Stats: high DEX gives speed, high CON gives the possibility to keep the Speed, etc
Some games consider the encumberment: people in cloth runs more than in leather, leather more than in mail, etc
Neverwinter consider the WTF: Every class run like deers, except the DC, who drags his/her *ss after the party anchoring them.
A strategy to sell mounts? NO. First, no mounts in dungeons, just in skirmishes and PvP. And, because the mount will increase a x% of the speed of the character, asuming you are playing with people in similar level, GS, experience, etc, almost everybody will have a mount of the same lvl; result:
- Walking: DC just sux
- Mount Lvl 1: The other classes with higher speed receive MORE bonus from the same mount (x% of HIGHER speed) than the DC (same x% of LOWER speed). DC sux even more.
- Mount LvL 2: the same, but worst. The x% increases even more, increasing the speed difference even more, the distance between rest of classes and DC when running even more. Now DC is really and royally suxing.
- Mount Lvl 3: Finally, the DC spends 3500 zen in a lvl3 mount and then reachs the paragon of suxing when the speed difference bonus gets the maximum, (and combined with some other classes feats to increase their movement are acting most of the time).
Defense
Consider two similar mail armors, similar level, similar scalemail, similar stats in Power, recovery, etc... well, if the mail is for a GWF it will have about 2 AC more than if the mail is for a DC.
Well...That is one of the (frequent) details in this game what really gets me really angry. Nothing justify this.
Now you can answer with a L2P if you wish. I really doesnt feel concerned anymore. I prefer by far to be playing than ranting at the forums, but the situation has becomed really stupid.
So, I hope they nerf it again. Maybe 1/2 of what it is now. Then the rest of the class healing/defense buff options can be brought up to cover for it, resulting in a much more dynamic play where there's more skill and activity to it than just laying down a fresh AS when it's up as your #1 priority over everything.
Sure. And, when nerfing AS again, why not to reduce sunburst effect in half? and that moontouched Hallowed Ground is really overpowered too, better remove it. And reduce the effect of Forgemaster Flame to the same than astral seal or even less. And, as grand final, why dont remove the last buffs and debuffs of the class at tier 1 and 2? better do put lifesteal too in every gear instead power or critical, that would be in line with the rest of current abilities of the DC too. And lets wait some unknown buff would arrive some day to ammend all the disaster.
Clearly we're expected to be the main healer, I don't think anybody disputes that. Yet to have such massive damage reduction and huge healing in one ability, with every other ability falling far short, and having this one ability be ground targetted...it's a crutch for an otherwise ineffective healer. Go ahead, try to clear your T2s without it. Don't talent for it, don't select it as a skill, and see what happens.
Oh, and I took a peek through the master list of builds stickied at the top of the forum. Common consensus? It's a "must have". So, roughly 2/3 of the time your job is cast this, stand in it. Cast this, stand in it. Hey everybody, I cast it, stand in it! Where's the skill in that? Any dynamic, active gameplay? Thought required? I cast it! Stand in it!
Making other skills more viable = good plan.
Making Astral Shield less viable = bad plan.
(also, I wouldn't stand in it, I'd stick it where the tanks are. Over there, in the scary red place. I'd only go over there to build AP/DP with a sunburst)
It's not dynamic, it requires no timing or judgement. If the cooldown is refreshed, cast it divine. Repeat every time during a boss fight. You might hold off for a second or two because a boss just threw your tank halfway across the room, as the closest thing to using your brain that it requires.
I'm not saying that it should simply be removed or turned into pure garbage. But why offer a selection, if there's really no selection? Planning on pve content? You MUST HAVE THIS, and talent for it. Period. Because it is SO good that everything else pales in comparison. How about taking some of that so good and spreading it around, or simply reducing the encounter slots for a cleric to 2, and autolocking this into the 3rd?
Let's face it. Every boss encounter in t2, and probably all of t1 as well (unless you're massively overgeared, maybe) requires this spell. So you cast it, and people stand in it. You cast it and people stand in it. Cooldown up, cast it, somebody stand in it! This is not worthwhile play. Which do you think would lead to greater long term satisfaction and repeat play for clerics:
1. I cast it, hey everybody, stand in the blue circle!
2: Reacting to the encounter, topping off health bars, throwing out damage prevention, reacting to what happens minute by minute, keeping the entire fight fluid and with variety more so than just casting it and people standing in it?
Making other skills more viable, good plan. We agree here.
Making astral shield less viable, at the same time (not different patches), is where we disagree. As long as this has a mandatory spot on the bar like it does now, it's too good. Spread the goodness around the rest of the abilities and bring this down while bringing them up.
As for the "I wouldn't stand in it" I was referring more to a generic shout out of "Hey gusy, i cast it stand in it okays!". How the developers let this get to release with it in it's current condition leaves me somewhat less than optimistic for where the game is going.
Honestly Astral Shield is fine where it is but the other spells need to be brought up to par and scaled correctly for Tier 2.
As Gelatin said having a spell be an outright requirement in order for a class to function is just bad especially because the power is, as he stated, promoting boring gamplay.
The goal should be to make it so Clerics can, at the least, use three spells, even if they are all healing based, and not select Astral Shield and do well. In game design the easy to use spells such as Astral Shield at low levels to ease the learning curb and taper off at higher levels. We have the opposite effect and obtain the most effective and brainless healing spell at level 50 and all the difficult to cast heals are outright outdated.
The more challenging a skill is to use effectively the more beneficial it should be and Astral Shield and the rest of the cleric powers violates this game design logic.
Hehe....maturity -or even sanity- is optional. (I play DC, you know)
If You look through my message, perhaps You will realize (sorry for the tone, it is the only way to get the people stop that precious second to read, and sometimes to think, about the content of the message itself) what I mean is:
The problem is not ONLY Astral shield
If You examine the builds and the guides you will discover that effectively, AS is on all of them but that SB is ALSO in all of them, and Moonstoned Hallowed Ground is on about 90% of them (since the "patch"), and Forgemaster in about the same.
If we would use Your line of reasoning, ALL of THEM are proper candidates for a future nerf, as ALL of THEM sit in most of the toolbars of the DCs all the time.
Because (it is sad to recognise) these are the only ones that work and scale (at the moment) more or less properly with the game level. The rest of powers and most of feats are or bugged, or rendered useless when leveling comparing their effects with the damage from the final bosses (and their legions of Adds) fights, or with the abilities and states granted to the rest of classes. The result is:
I am not telling this by feeling, but after some hours of calculations: The formulae for the calculation of the effect of every power in terms of damage/healing are in the thread of game mechanics, as the formulae for the rest of status, based on the developers tooltips. My DC spreadsheet has about 9 pages yet (as in the current status of affairs the things are not so simple for DCs than for any other class, you need to squeeze it an awful lot looking for almost every possible sinergy and to remove all the bugged or inefficient powers and feats if you wish a really viable build different to the existent ones; and most of the guides and advise you can find at the moment are not really based in calculation and really tested at the game, but based in feelings...some are good, but others are deeply misleading and plain wrong)
By the way, as I have not find yet this info at the forums: The parameters You need for the formulae in your current configuration and level: the weapon coefficient corresponding to your weapon, and the power effect coeficient for every different ability, you can calculate them with simple testing:
- at the trade of blades dummies (damage)
- or with a pet (healing) in a controlled environment, like an appropiate foundry quest.
- or just wearing items and looking the stats
Just get a bunch of unexpensive green items at the auction house to be able to check properly the effect of acumulating (as an example, to test really life steal effect I did that). For the level/class coefficient, You can use the mean value of the two limits that come with every formula -it worked for me at least-.The only ability you can not test in that way is the speed; but anybody who played any quest in a long distance dungeon can check by (sour) experience that the DC is the slowest by very far.
OMG! Finally.
Now the question is: When we can expect the other spells would be brought to par and scaled correctly? Any reasonable date?
Finally what?
Sorry to disappoint you but ambisinisterr is a forum mod. That is to say he (or she sorry not sure which) is a normal player just like you or me who takes on a voluntary role to help keep the forums in check. He does not work for the company in any position that holds any sway or say over what if any changes are made to any class, skills or abilities.
The only reason I post this is because you appear to have taken his personal opinion as a dev response.
I think astral shield is right the way it is now... but if the cleric is really supposed to be a support class... then we need either more boost group abilities or higher dmg abilities.
Standard boss fight for me:
Drop big poo circle - buff
Place blue poo circle - heal & buff
Cast poo circle around me - heal & dmg
Place and cast yellow poo circle - heal
And tag all creatures with little poo circles that I poo at them - dmg and let group heal themselves
Might even throw a few tiny poo DoT's - dmg over time
I'm guessing pretty much the same as most... maybe not. But im torn a bit. In one hand I like that group knows, hey cleric can't heal us if we mess up (less blame my way
Thanks for the clarification.
Lets continue then.
I loved this game too.
Until I really realised HOW BAD implemented it was:
First, some of the key abilities defining the classes are just NOT implemented (even if they are showed at the character creation as a reason to choose that class).
In the case of DC are the Control bonus and the Control Resistance Bonus. For other classes, look at the specific threads.
To cope with that, most Control effects are now automatic, and some classes (not the DC) and bosses has been supplied with Control inmunity, by feats, encounters or even permanently.
The correct way of working for any attack is: Calculate intended result (generally damage or healing, but control also) of the attack, with a random component (the min-max damages come from there). Then, add the Bonus to the attack if any. Then it reaches the target, who applies his/her resistances (if any) to mitigate. In the case of control effects, the duration is usually where bonus and mitigation is applied.
At the moment a char of the proper class with 0 bonuses but a feat or encounter can permastun most other classes no matter if the target has even Maximum resistance, causing the most severe imbalance in PvP.
Second, is not even an implementation issue but basic maths: And it plagues most of the feats and passive powers from most classes, not only the DC feats and passives
Look, I will try to explain it plainly and clearly:
The effects in Feats and passives were thought to be ADDED. Example: if you put a feat point in weapon mastery meaning an increment of a 1%, it means than if the char has 10%, with the point in the feat he/she will have 11%. If You put 3 points, the final chance to land a critical will be 13%. Clear, fair and straightforward.
Now suppose instead doing the correct operation, what you are doing is incrementing the percentage FOR an 1%; that means if you have a 10%, to apply a point in the feat increment the value FOR a 1%, doing 10%*(1+0,01) = 10,01%; If you put three points at the feat, you get 10%*(1+0,03) = 10,03%; in both cases the increment is negligible and completely worthless. Because it is wrong. It is a MISTAKE.
I tested healing action with Healing word (it only worked in that and in bastion, not in the rest of healings) before the current "patch" and what happened was (you guess) multiplying instead adding. After the patch I didnt even try again as no sign of change, and to test it needs to respec.
And I have the strongest suspicions about foresight, greater fortune, etc because exactly the same reason.
The golden rule is "If You are not seeing the effect in your stats, MOST probably it is not working"
Then, please, anybody trying to give here some sound statement about upgrading the powers, balancing the abilities, whatever, please please, please, first be so kind to recommend Cryptic to hire somebody who did Maths at the High School for the job. Sad but true.
Mmh...from Your perspective I am glad then they are working here and not at a more serious software thingie, like for NASA or for the utilities: We would have satellite crashes, grid black-outs and even Chernobyls in a daily basis and they would write threads saying it is working as intended and asking for feedback. At least here it is only the money from players and shareholders what is being dumped down the sink.
However, if it is too be kept healing on divinity mode then I think that the damage reduction need to be less then that of the non-divine version. Simply put it needs to be a trade off, more damage reduction or less damage reduction but also some healing.
Ideally though I would love to see the divine version give crowd control resist and maybe an increased AoE (but with a little less damage reduction).
Astral shield don't heal. It regenerates. Heal =|= regeneration.
I main a cleric so I express my opinions based as a player who actively plays a cleric.
I'm not relaying any official word in this thread simply expressing my own opinions.
You are correct. Astral shield is a heal over time now. Personally I don't feel it should have any healing or regeneration, I would be perfectly happy if the divine version was simply a larger AoE or giving crowd control resist.
It is a HoT now, but the devs missed that HoT is able to give CRITICALS. It doesnt give crit now, and it doesnt proc the abilities which activate on crit; I think (too upsett now to do any more proper testing) it is also NOT working with the healing action Feat and I think is not working with Divine Fortune passive; in that aspect it continues working as a regeneration, but with 40% healing only for the DC who launched it. Great. Good Job. As intended.
Perfectly happy? well, at least it doesnt (yet) buff the enemy increasing their damage and debuff the party and yourself like Divine Glow or nothing at all, like Initiate of the Faith. That could be a cause for happiness.
By the way, I have observed that many classes do recover by themselves and suddenly from middle up to full health bar, pretty quickly (not instantly as if using potions, or slowly by rejuvenation potions, etc) during the combat. Has anybody compiled a complete list of the selfhealing abilities implemented for the REST of classes at the nerf?
I for one am playing other games until(?) they fix this class OR another MMO comes out that catches my interest. They have dragged this epic screw-up out so long though at this point I'm starting to not really care which happens first.
well when the other classes DO use potions, it seems the cleric actually doesn't need to heal as much.
-Rogues can heal themselves if they stack enough lifesteal.
-GF have fighter's recovery which is a nice skill.
-GWF have restoring strike which (to my knowledge) is utterly useless, however they do have unstoppable so with enough lifesteal they can heal themselves.
-CW have no skill that heals them but again, if they stack lifesteal they can heal themselves.
The cleric isn't a healbot like many people envision it. Even my healing spec one I've had people leave because I couldn't out heal their stupidity and they refused to use potions.
Also, I almost never see people using potions after combat. I see them running into the next fight with almost no HP left and they complain to the cleric when they die.
In the loading messages it does hint that potions are the best way to heal up after combat, because they really are they only have a cooldown when used in combat. Potions can heal you out of combat much much much faster then any cleric.
Basically the other classes need to learn to use their potions and not expect the cleric to be a healbot because I really don't think they were designed that way. Honestly I think some of their healing spells are really weak on purpose.
Thank You for the answer.
Yep, I agree.
Lets see.
When soloing, the bosses and adds are the same for all the classes. The difficulty is tuned according to the level. That means the enemy is prepared to deal against a TR, a CW, a GWF, a GF of your same level and the corresponding pet.
Being so, the mitigation, the damage, the healpoints and the effects of the enemy are tuned to offer some difficulty to all the classes at the same level. That means they can deal with the DPS from TR, CW, GWF, with their movility, and at the same time to do the proper scaled damage, at least sufficent to avoid "cake walks" for them or the game would lost interest. GF has less (but even so, notable) DPS, but more survivability, they are thougher and can block or mitigate a good deal of damage, giving them time for their lower (but even so, high) DPS to defeat the enemy by patience and good play.
Enter the DC. In theory, the correct strategy would be: Debuff the enemy in order to mitigate at least a percentage of his attacks, buff yourself and pet to mitigate any damage reaching You and/or increasing your own damage (both by a percentage of your current defense and damage). Then, move, dodge, confide on your defense and then selfheal yourself in order to cope with the incoming damage and survive during the time it takes to defeat adds and boss. Nice, eh? a cake walk you would say....but then the implementation enters in the game:
First, most of your buffs and debuffs just dont work at all. AS worked, cleanse worked, Hallowed Ground worked. Now AS has been severily decreased (not only in duration time but 40%ed in selfhealing effect when in divinity so; and in soloing no stacking was possible); Cleanse is now utterly useless; only HG (and it is a daily) works properly up to this moment. The rest are mostly bugged or negligible effect. (If somebody has been able to REALLY test Forecast, with real data, I would think it could be a possible exception).
Second, moving and dodging. DC is the slowest (by far) class at the game; any other class, and most of the adds, can overrun and reach a DC with ease. Dodging, even with a high stamina from 20 STR, only grants a couple dodges with a sloooooow cooldown to avoid red zones; just trying to walk away from red areas is useless in 95% times. That means that even the best player in the world is entitled to receive a big amount of damage from reds when soloing. (in PvP, with stealth, undodgeable attacks, and no red areas from most attacks from the wizzies, the thing is just ridiculous)
Third, supposing that with a mix of good playing, kiting, moving and dodging like a spider over a hot plank, and a dose of luck, you are taking the minimum damage: Is your healing power sufficent to cope with it? the answer is usually NO. No heal bursts, just HoTs with small effects, and the DC is receiving just the 40% of them. 40% of a tiny thing is a really tiny thing. That means POTIONS. In fact that means the DC is the top consumer of potions at the game. And sometimes not even the puny healing + potions are able to cope with the incoming damage. By the way, the problem is not only the low effect of the powers, and the long cooldowns, it is that most related feats are also not working properly.
Fourth, your defense. Do you guess? yes, the worst of any class. TRs are able to take advantage of deflect, CW from magic, GF from heavy armor, but even the GWF, with mail armor exactly as a DC, receives better defense from it.
Ok, fifth: lets suppose the DC has overcomed the previous steps and is doing damage. Of course, the DC damage and DPS is the lowest (by very far) of any other class. To kill just an add usually means at least a dozen at-will hits and probaby an encounter or two. Usually sunburst or forgemaster (Because they both work -yet-). In the mean time, the boss and adds are doing their damage and red areas, of course.
Sixth: You have survived until this moment, the field is (at the moment) clean of adds and the DC start to deal with the boss; well, from level 38 onwards, the DC will discover then that some bosses just regenerate or life-steal faster than any DPS that any DC of that level can do. The fight takes a little long? sure, it takes forever (or until the DC is defeated). Solution: left the quest and return with two levels over the boss level (sometimes not even so).
Easiest class? fun to play in this way? a cake walk? Healing the whole way?
Have You really even tried to level a Cleric to 60? Please do it and return afterwards.