Ok ran CN and i can only say ouch, It was pretty much a repeat of spider with the 2 CW and the TR just tearing everything up, i had no real role, no shield made me not able to block so every time unstopable would finish i would take disgusting spike damage on trash.
I had nothing to do on the boss fights basically the CW just CC burn everything else down and the TR burned the boss down. the CW could even spare time to help him i sat there and used my wiffle bat on everything i could but they could have honestly short manned the dungeon. I have tried both plaguefire and lifedrinker enchants to try and help out my role but it just wasnt helping at out, ive tried a 4 set of war, 2 set of aow 2 set of vig, full destroyer spec, full instigator spec, but nothing seems to work well. We swapped out my GWF for my CW for another run for a 3 CW party. Destroyed it. Tried my TR . yeah the TR nerf hurt 2 in a group but still did better than my GWF. I had to hop out of group after that but they tried it with a GF, they are now begging me to level a GF up. Im still confused as to what we are supposed to do.
Can any GWF with a 12k+ gs and success with the class that thinks they have a good build share it? i would like to see if its about the same as mine or if your doing anything differently than i am. CW just burn the adds faster than us and CC them to death.
Godly players? Get the **** out of here. The skill cap in this game isn't anything special, he's just taken the time to come up with a build that is extremely effective if you play appropriately and have the appropriate gear. Yes some players learn faster than others, but thats life.
Good players will adapt and thrive with what they have, bad players will whine and blame the mechanics of the game 90% of the time.
When good players do not thrive despite their experience and high skill level, then you can start complaining about the game itself. Until then stop your whining. Balance needs to be centered around a classes MAXIMUM potential, something that many game developers are starting to learn. Look at MOBAs like Dota for example, changes are made to the game based upon gameplay that happens at the highest skill levels and then works it way down from there.
You do not focus on making the worst players happy unless your only goal is to make money.
edit: And the good/successful GWFs out there aren't "making the class look good", they're are showing that the class is good if you know what you're doing.
Blah blah, read my above text for a response.
Oh I read it and all I hear is blah blah blah the same BS that gets thrown out by people like you all the time.
You try to counter but fail because again a FEW people that are really good is not an indication of a class being good or bad. The indication of a class being good or bad is based off the average not only 1 side of of the scale.
Godly players? Get the **** out of here. The skill cap in this game isn't anything special, he's just taken the time to come up with a build that is extremely effective if you play appropriately and have the appropriate gear. Yes some players learn faster than others, but thats life.
Good players will adapt and thrive with what they have, bad players will whine and blame the mechanics of the game 90% of the time.
When good players do not thrive despite their experience and high skill level, then you can start complaining about the game itself. Until then stop your whining. Balance needs to be centered around a classes MAXIMUM potential, something that many game developers are starting to learn. Look at MOBAs like Dota for example, changes are made to the game based upon gameplay that happens at the highest skill levels and then works it way down from there.
You do not focus on making the worst players happy unless your only goal is to make money.
edit: And the good/successful GWFs out there aren't "making the class look good", they're are showing that the class is good if you know what you're doing.
Blah blah, read my above text for a response.
You have no idea what you're talking about. If you want to balance around maximum potential, then every class needs a massive nerf, because every class is capable of one shotting every other class. At maximum potential, there isn't a class that can't press literally 1 button to win. Get the **** out of here.
Oh I read it and all I hear is blah blah blah the same BS that gets thrown out by people like you all the time.
You try to counter but fail because again a FEW people that are really good is not an indication of a class being good or bad. The indication of a class being good or bad is based off the average not only 1 side of of the scale.
And I'll repeat again, good players will thrive and succeed with what you give them, bad players will blame something else 90% of the time. Any experienced mmo'er will tell you same.
I have seen many people across all the classes be successful in pvp/pve, despite there being problems with their class, they manage to find a way to overcome/work around it. Not only that, but when they figure out how to be successful, they post about it on the forums for everyone to see.
The forums here are filled with information and helping hands to help the average player get better and realize the potential of their class. If you don't take advantage of it and remain stuck in your head, thats your own fault.
Guild: Lemonade Stand | Server: Dragon (Original) | PvP Forever | 1og0s * TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
I actually do know what I'm talking about and it is a general maximum i'm referring to obviously.
There are multiple feat builds and multiple skill loadouts you can run, all with their strengths and weaknesses. The idea is to figure out what you want to do with your character, and then design your feat build and skill load out to make you the most effective at it, keeping in mind other things like your gear/enchants.
Many players have done this across all the classes, and many of them have posted here on the forums explaining how they succeed and have given adequate instructions on how to do so. If you remain stuck in your "I'm not the problem, its the game" bubble, then you shut yourself off from taking advantage of it.
If you want to balance around maximum potential, then every class needs a massive nerf, because every class is capable of one shotting every other class. At maximum potential, there isn't a class that can't press literally 1 button to win. Get the **** out of here.
Make a list for every class and explain to us all how each of them could potentially 1 shot somebody. Go.
Guild: Lemonade Stand | Server: Dragon (Original) | PvP Forever | 1og0s * TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
And I'll repeat again, good players will thrive and succeed with what you give them, bad players will blame something else 90% of the time. Any experienced mmo'er will tell you same.
I have seen many people across all the classes be successful in pvp/pve, despite there being problems with their class, they manage to find a way to overcome/work around it. Not only that, but when they figure out how to be successful, they post about it on the forums for everyone to see.
The forums here are filled with information and helping hands to help the average player get better and realize the potential of their class. If you don't take advantage of it and remain stuck in your head, thats your own fault.
Most players in ANY MMO are casual and average in most aspects of the game. We are talking about the really good players who are not casual (well some may be) and definitely not average.
Now ANY player can use information to become better no argument there. However information and practice can only get people so far, and all MMO's are based off the worst players of their games unfortunately. Yet when you look at end-game practices and you find that the MAJORITY of parties formed do NOT want certain classes than there is a problem.
While sometimes it is lack of understanding on their part, the majority of the time it is because said class does NOT bring enough of something to the group. While great players might be able to close the gap, most average players will NEVER be able to come close to the great player.
Reflexes and hand-eye coordination is HUGE in DPS races and PvP some people have it some don't. Making a class that only benefits people with great hand-eye coordination is wrong no matter how you put it. This is the case in GW2 with their mage class. Only those that have exceptional hand-eye coordination and the ability to have 20+ keybinds can play that class at its fullest capacity.
The amount of those people are very slim and I would say somewhere near 97% of all players fall outside that exceptional title.
Anyway we can keep debating this issue and we won't get anywhere, it seems we both see things in a different light that the other person can't see so to each their own.
P.S. You play the most Overpowered class in the game so it is funny you would even talk about GWF's like you know them. (unless you have vids to show us that you have a level 60 GWF than you really should not be in this discussion.)
I actually do know what I'm talking about and it is a general maximum i'm referring to obviously.
There are multiple feat builds and multiple skill loadouts you can run, all with their strengths and weaknesses. The idea is to figure out what you want to do with your character, and then design your feat build and skill load out to make you the most effective at it, keeping in mind other things like your gear/enchants.
Many players have done this across all the classes, and many of them have posted here on the forums explaining how they succeed and creating instructions on how to do so. If you remain stuck in your "I'm not the problem, its the game" bubble, then you shut yourself off from taking advantage of it.
Make a list for every class and explain to us all how each of them could potentially 1 shot somebody. Go.
The only one that can't is the DC. Just go to youtube and learn from the masters, go l2skill from the best. Every class (except the DC, as far as I know) is capable of minimum 25k crits. I have seen 80k crits in pvp, I've been one shot by both rogues and wizards (not executes, 100% to 0% in one shot). My GWF isn't in great gear, but i've still had 12K+ crits. I've crit with bull's rush on my GF (12k GS, go see what the 14k+ GS ones hit for) for 12k+ without even knight's challenge for double damage. Like I said, you don't have a clue, you're just talking out of your ***. Take your own advice and learn from the "pros". You'll see GF's one shotting everything in sight.
Mid-level (35-45+) dungeons have been fine so far post-patch. WMS with sprint canceling is ridiculous aoe DPS (although not good enough to out-damage 2 mystic monsters aoe heal spam at the Garrundar the Vile skirmish). I managed to top the damage charts in both the Gray Wolf's Den and Idris, though you could probably attribute that to the fact that I was using a blue lvl 36 weapon.
PVP wise, due to rolling human with maxed toughness/armor specialization/unstoppable recovery, with only 13 con I'm currently sitting at 14.3k hp @ lvl 44, on top of 24% DR and 20% chance to deflect (which will increase by 5% in the next 5 levels). Surviving at this point is really easy as long as I don't attempt to engage more than 2 targets with less than half health.
I'll have to see how this fares at lvl 60 pug pvp.
Most players in ANY MMO are casual and average in most aspects of the game. We are talking about the really good players who are not casual (well some may be) and definitely not average.
Now ANY player can use information to become better no argument there. However information and practice can only get people so far, and all MMO's are based off the worst players of their games unfortunately. Yet when you look at end-game practices and you find that the MAJORITY of parties formed do NOT want certain classes than there is a problem.
While sometimes it is lack of understanding on their part, the majority of the time it is because said class does NOT bring enough of something to the group. While great players might be able to close the gap, most average players will NEVER be able to come close to the great player.
Reflexes and hand-eye coordination is HUGE in DPS races and PvP some people have it some don't. Making a class that only benefits people with great hand-eye coordination is wrong no matter how you put it. This is the case in GW2 with their mage class. Only those that have exceptional hand-eye coordination and the ability to have 20+ keybinds can play that class at its fullest capacity.
The amount of those people are very slim and I would say somewhere near 97% of all players fall outside that exceptional title.
Anyway we can keep debating this issue and we won't get anywhere, it seems we both see things in a different light that the other person can't see so to each their own.
I agree with most of what you said, however the mistake you're making is assuming that its only great/amazingly skilled intelligent players "closing the gap". It's just not. It's so pain-stakingly easy to do what I see many successful GWFs do all the time at 60. One of the best pvp'rs in the game right now is a GWF.
P.S. You play the most Overpowered class in the game so it is funny you would even talk about GWF's like you know them. (unless you have vids to show us that you have a level 60 GWF than you really should not be in this discussion.)
This line of argument is ridiculous, first off TR's are the most overpowered class in the game, then CW's, THEN GFs. Why? Simply because of Tenebrous enchants, thats really how you have to rank things at this moment. TR's are already the best class in pvp for killing purposes, when they have full tene enchants they become broken, to the point where you can just make a build centered around stayin stealthed and invulning, while you flurry down people at range. A good CW with full tenebs are second on the OP scale because they are casting at range. This means if they get one cc off they can pretty much decimate you in seconds, all while being safely at a distance.
Guild: Lemonade Stand | Server: Dragon (Original) | PvP Forever | 1og0s * TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
The only one that can't is the DC. Just go to youtube and learn from the masters, go l2skill from the best. Every class (except the DC, as far as I know) is capable of minimum 25k crits. I have seen 80k crits in pvp, I've been one shot by both rogues and wizards (not executes, 100% to 0% in one shot). My GWF isn't in great gear, but i've still had 12K+ crits. I've crit with bull's rush on my GF (12k GS, go see what the 14k+ GS ones hit for) for 12k+ without even knight's challenge for double damage. Like I said, you don't have a clue, you're just talking out of your ***. Take your own advice and learn from the "pros". You'll see GF's one shotting everything in sight.
Because I don't play a GF already and destroy people on a daily basis? I'm already on youtube you cretin, look at my signature, click on Highlights. I know what I'm doing and I know what the classes are capable of. I have 14k+ gs and I play with people who are 14k+ gs. The only classes that can realistically 1 shot you are a TR or GF with Knights Challenge. If you get 1 shot by a CW you simply have **** gear and need more hp.
edit: And anyways, even if I were to grant you that every class can potentially 1 shot, then you're just arguing against yourself, because then everyone is potentially on equal footing.
Think about teneb enchants, if everyone in the game right now had full teneb enchants, noone would be complaining about them because everyone would be on equal footing. The only complaints that would come would be that pvp fights dont last long enough or something, but noone would be complaining about unfair advantages because everyone would have the advantage from the get go.
Guild: Lemonade Stand | Server: Dragon (Original) | PvP Forever | 1og0s * TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
I recognize that I'm behaving badly, and don't wish to do so. Sorry. My issue is with pvp in general, there's little room for tactics or skill when every class has a combo they can run through that will one shot (or in the case of the GWF, stunlock for a 50k+ dmg combo) any other class. I've used the guides and videos, and have seen how ridiculous it gets from firsthand experience (full tenebrous on my GF). Check out the guides for GF's, and you'll see one shots with lunging strike for many tens of thousands (even without knights challenge, 30k will still one shot most players). I think things in pve will be fine with some tweaks.
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keobiaaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
Having fun, already had fun pre-patch with traditional group setups.
If i was to make further adjustments, I'd buff the damage on mighty leap a bit more as it has no target cap - has always been great with steel blitz in CN.
They should remove the damage reduction on hitting 2-5 targets with WS/WMS too, really doesn't make any sense to have that small penalty in there when those skills are target capped by design.
I'd also feel roar is a bit too mandatory given the AP and Determination gain, would be nice if they could shift that into other areas as roar is counter intuitive to melee dps(non issue on large packs). They also didn't fix being able to Slam + Crescendo at the same time.
I originally thought the temp health on unstoppable was overkill as the skill gave a lot of survivability already but that was perhaps short sighted when factoring in AS uptime nerf + healing threat being split, very welcome change.
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tyr216Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
This patch was exactly what I needed to keep playing the game. The class has always been fun but now it does good damage on top of being fun. Is there still room for improvements? Of course. The class is less than perfect, but at least this patch was a huge step in the right direction. Now that the overall damage buff is out of the way, they can focus on fixing and fine tuning individual powers and feats.
Agreed. Ran Spellplague with guildies and one pug GWF as a 10.2k+stone GWF. I was top of the meter by a good 10%, rogue next, CW 20-30% behind us, and the other GWF doing 1/3 my damage. We basically 4-manned the dungeon with that GWF doing next to nothing, so don't say the group just sucked... I'd like to see you and your group 4-man Spellplague with 1 Cleric and no tank.
Me 11mil dmg, other GWF 4mil... Some people are just doing it wrong. (And no, he was NOT Sentinel Spec/Tank geared.)
wait if the cw was 20-30% lower than you and the other gwf did 1/3 less damage than you isnt the gwf and cw close. so your guildie cw is doing nothing with the gwf and you're doing 1/3 more of nothing?
I recognize that I'm behaving badly, and don't wish to do so. Sorry. My issue is with pvp in general, there's little room for tactics or skill when every class has a combo they can run through that will one shot (or in the case of the GWF, stunlock for a 50k+ dmg combo) any other class. I've used the guides and videos, and have seen how ridiculous it gets from firsthand experience (full tenebrous on my GF). Check out the guides for GF's, and you'll see one shots with lunging strike for many tens of thousands (even without knights challenge, 30k will still one shot most players). I think things in pve will be fine with some tweaks.
My guild and I play against good premades all the time in PvP, everyone has 14k+ GS, everyone hits hard, and there is still a lot of strategy involved. Especially when it comes to managing your points on the map.
We also hold in house matches or just play with other guilds and do 1v1s all the time. There is a good amount of skill involved in this game, particularly in PvP, even when people have the best stuff and do tons of damage.
Guild: Lemonade Stand | Server: Dragon (Original) | PvP Forever | 1og0s * TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
Still less damage than my guardian fighter, with less mobility, less cc, and less survivability. No, not happy. Still can't randomly activate unstoppable. Still cc'd from 100% to 0% by any class, still one shot by any class. Still total ****ing ****.
Lets leave PvP out of the discussion please, most could care less about that.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Character is what a man is in the dark
I agree with most of what you said, however the mistake you're making is assuming that its only great/amazingly skilled intelligent players "closing the gap". It's just not. It's so pain-stakingly easy to do what I see many successful GWFs do all the time at 60. One of the best pvp'rs in the game right now is a GWF.
This line of argument is ridiculous, first off TR's are the most overpowered class in the game, then CW's, THEN GFs. Why? Simply because of Tenebrous enchants, thats really how you have to rank things at this moment. TR's are already the best class in pvp for killing purposes, when they have full tene enchants they become broken, to the point where you can just make a build centered around stayin stealthed and invulning, while you flurry down people at range. A good CW with full tenebs are second on the OP scale because they are casting at range. This means if they get one cc off they can pretty much decimate you in seconds, all while being safely at a distance.
ROFLMAO if you think TR is more OP than GF you suck
I was mostly asking about PVE, pvp is broken and i dont really care about it atm. in PVE my role just seems to be performed better by other classes, or is not needed. I have run dungeons with the sole intent is to see what a GWF can do (no punting mobs) so when i state 1 gwf 2 cw 1 tr 1 dc that is without punting. everyone has good gear T2 + full enchants but with the cap on mobs i can hit a CW does my job better. They CC and DPS i .... sorta dps. you can swap out a GWF for a GF and have better results. You can even swap out the GWF for a third CW and CC the dungeon to death. the uncapped hits the CW do make GWF trivial by comparison. Sure i can tank (while unstopable is up) but its not needed. My damage is to low vs anyone else to matter, and yes i realize we can pop out full slams with tene and plaguefire enchants but even then a less geared CW (mine) does the job better than my GWF. Everyone is talking about slam + plaguefire or slam and hitting 5 mobs... my CW hits 20+ mobs and procs all the plaguefire and tene and can crit with it. I am really trying to figure out our role. A role that is not performed better by other classes, and dont say hybrid, at that point you lose all credibility with me. In a game with SPECIFIC roles i want to know what we are supposed to do. We are not single target DPS, (TR, CW, hell even GF do it better) we are not a tank (GF are 10x as good in that regard) we cant CC, we cannot AOE target dps as well as a CW. I also do not want to absolutely GIMP the damage of the CW to hope to perform semi decent numbers. I am really having trouble with the class. What am i doing wrong?
With 12.5k GS i can never loose to dmg from a CW in t2 content. Doesnt matter if he drops of the edge half the instance, i will still do more. I am pretty close with TRs overall dmg now, many times above them, but you can still understand the gap between you 2 in single target. At this moment, I don't intend to waste AD to make a tanking gear and respec, maybe as Sentinel we can be of more use, but a GF can do the job. No friends of mine are playing this game, so i just run pugs (through zone chat). Most of the times I dont have a problem to group up with ppl, but sometimes there is someone (90% of times the DC) that will ***** about bringing a second CW and leave, thats rare though.
In my point of view, rolling Sentinel to tank seems the most beneficial role for us, mostly by the moment you dont have a GF in your group, since clerics have problems now . You are not needed to tank any boss, just some big packs of adds to make your healers life easier. But by doing so, I don't know how much dmg we will loose, and how this can be better. Cleaving packs faster might be better than tanking them, since respawns can be an issue.
Anyway right now i try to farm my greater Plague Fire enchant , after that I think i might experiment with Sentinel a bit.
What is your gear vs the CW gear? I know all our gear is relatively the same but they are doing alot more damage than me, like 30-40 % more. Our TR is still wiping the floor with all of us in damage but the CW have really started closing the gap with the fixes they got and they can play off of each other now for dps (chill/arcane). I have tried full AoW set after patch but i normally run 2 AoW 2 Vig. I'm just not seeing a benefit to me coming, the group could easily short man it but they are being nice and bringing me along. If they removed our **** mob hit cap i would almost feel useful but atm the CW can just CC 20+ mobs at a time and then nuke them down. While me on the other hand has to sit there and hit 5 mobs at a time (and not always the same 5 per swing/ability)
I only have 12.5k gs because of Disciple of War (25% arm pen from recovery). Without it I am ~around 11,8k i think, not sure. I dont have AD or money to buy bis blue belt rank 8 enchantment etc to get to all caps, so I need it. Well can't say i remember exact gearscores, but i always team with pplz 10.5k +,11k must be full t2. This morning I was with a 12k TR, who passed me for 800k on a FH, and I had to kite most of the time on last boss. But this is as it goes for dmg only. Yes we suck. We don't have the utility or escape mechanics of most classes, and our "role" is quite restricted. Cleave adds, tank adds, or maybe kite adds (Sentinel). Nothing more . We can cleave adds good, but some times killing them is not the best option, thanks to certain encounters (spellplague,FH). We can stay at a boss single target if needed, but we dont have a skill like execution sentence that will do the difference, or the disengage mechanics (stealth) , to avoid adds/boss skills, or even the possibility to burn down the add and continue our job. And we dont have the mechanic to get aggro fast thus protecting the healer in aoe situation unless you are sentintel, and either the 2nd option ( CC ), to protect him. You can take aggro if starting with Slam, using AoE as soon as adds spawn, and unstoppable/ avoiding stuff can help, but thats the only case.
So to sum it up, you are a cleave machine, lacking CC / aggro / more survivability , to be important. If you have a GF in group, a CW and cleric who know how to play, you are not a wasted spot, you can be beneficial (That ofcourse depends on the dungeon you are running). But in general ,you can not cover for their mistakes like a 2nd cleric /CW would do. Thats my opinion
GWF are really really great in PVP now, i'm running a tankish deflect build with around 30k HP. Sure Strike have been buffed ALOT and with Charge and high sustained dmg from sure strike they can deal alot of dmg and be really hard to dodge. Once they are out of tricks and dodges, I knock em down and finish em with Restoring Strike. Use the sprint abillity to get to next target, he starts dodging, and i keep repeating Charge + Sure Strike until he's out of tricks then Knockdown, Restoring Strike to finish em off. This is not the highest dps build for GWF out there, but i'm pretty sure it's the moast sustainable one for PVP. You can take alot of punish in this build. And with the buff to Unstoppeble you can fight 1 vs 3 for quit long.
Daring shout sounds good on the tooltip but the skill is a joke. Not worth getting. Go with Battle Fury instead.
I see this all the time. It's funny, because it actually isn't bad in PVE.
-With Destroyer feats and paired with Roar, you can charge up your Daily AND Unstoppable so fast it's not even funny.
-It doesn't do AOE damage on its own, but will proc Steel Blitz and any Weapon Enhancement to everything around you. I'm also pretty sure it procs Weapon Master, but I never remember to check while in the middle of battle.
-It provides extra survivability that was lost with the AS nerf.
-It marks and lowers resistance on anything hit, meaning that classes who don't build the full 22% armor pen will do more damage until you get hit.
-With enough recovery, you can make the cooldown less horrible. I personally have 3,394 Recovery which places it at 14.3 seconds.
I wouldn't mind a light cooldown reduction, but a little would go a very long way on that ability.
I haven't tried PvP on my GWF after the patch at all, but what comes to PvE I haven't really seen that big of a difference in my dps. After CW and TR nerfs I'm on par with both when it comes to either single target or AoE dps. After some 20 dungeon runs with people with similar gear I've come on top on damage dealt almost every time. So if anyone claims that GWF is still useless needs to get their **** together and learn to actually play the class.
Threatening rush and lunge beat sprint's mobility ALL DAY LONG. No contest. My GF cannot be kited.
Bull's charge hits as hard or harder than anything on my GWF with a longer cc (traveling through the air+prone. I have infinite charges from threatening rush).
Lunge hits as hard or harder than anything on my GWF while having a massive ~30ft range (and shorter cooldown than any GWF encounter power).
Cleave at will actually moves your character forward when you use it, unlike GWF at-wills that always miss because someone takes one step away.
All my GF's encounter powers move me into my target by a significant amount, so they never miss. My GWF's encounters barely move me towards my target, so it's so easy to miss.
I have no doubt that GWF's wreck terrible people, but with unstoppable still completely bugged, I find everything you're saying very hard to believe.
lol i can't argue w/ ppl that havn't experienced end-game builds, our gwf is faster then a mount when he sprints.. so idk how you fail but you have no idea what a gwf is capable of clearly.. i play with this gwf everyday ik how good they get. go pvp vs @venomous10 dragon server.
FearITsSelf#1 GF From #1 Guild Pve/Pvp [ Lemonade Stand ]
I haven't tried PvP on my GWF after the patch at all, but what comes to PvE I haven't really seen that big of a difference in my dps. After CW and TR nerfs I'm on par with both when it comes to either single target or AoE dps. After some 20 dungeon runs with people with similar gear I've come on top on damage dealt almost every time. So if anyone claims that GWF is still useless needs to get their **** together and learn to actually play the class.
To be honest after i read this the only thing i can think of for your CW and TR is either Incompetent or afk. If they removed our hit cap i might be inclined to agree with you for the aoe but single target? come on funny joke, unless of course we are in full t2 setup and they are in greens .... lvl 50 greens.
Honestly I am not interested in hearing from people who dont do spider + dungeons as everything before that you can almost 3 man. I also don't care about the PVP aspect because that in and of itself is a can of worms i don't want to get into. I would also like to hear from the people who have another class besides GWF, say CW or TR as they are the other dps of the groups (yes, yes i know people want to argue that GWF are not dps they are tanks....) I am trying specifically to ask the people that are about as geared up as I am AoW type gear and ancient weapon/off hand. Do you honestly feel useful in groups? and i mean that as is the spot they gave you honestly being used by the best class? or would the group have been better with something else?
I am sorry to be blunt but after putting a lot of time and resources into my GWF I am feeling that in taking my GWF the group is loosing out on something that would make it easier or faster. If you do not understand what i mean log off your GWF create a CW and see how easy it is. The risk/effort vs reward to me just does not seem to be there.
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I had nothing to do on the boss fights basically the CW just CC burn everything else down and the TR burned the boss down. the CW could even spare time to help him i sat there and used my wiffle bat on everything i could but they could have honestly short manned the dungeon. I have tried both plaguefire and lifedrinker enchants to try and help out my role but it just wasnt helping at out, ive tried a 4 set of war, 2 set of aow 2 set of vig, full destroyer spec, full instigator spec, but nothing seems to work well. We swapped out my GWF for my CW for another run for a 3 CW party. Destroyed it. Tried my TR . yeah the TR nerf hurt 2 in a group but still did better than my GWF. I had to hop out of group after that but they tried it with a GF, they are now begging me to level a GF up. Im still confused as to what we are supposed to do.
Can any GWF with a 12k+ gs and success with the class that thinks they have a good build share it? i would like to see if its about the same as mine or if your doing anything differently than i am. CW just burn the adds faster than us and CC them to death.
Oh I read it and all I hear is blah blah blah the same BS that gets thrown out by people like you all the time.
You try to counter but fail because again a FEW people that are really good is not an indication of a class being good or bad. The indication of a class being good or bad is based off the average not only 1 side of of the scale.
How is that scale balanced, when this is the only class that becomes less and less useful as you progress at max level?
You have no idea what you're talking about. If you want to balance around maximum potential, then every class needs a massive nerf, because every class is capable of one shotting every other class. At maximum potential, there isn't a class that can't press literally 1 button to win. Get the **** out of here.
And I'll repeat again, good players will thrive and succeed with what you give them, bad players will blame something else 90% of the time. Any experienced mmo'er will tell you same.
I have seen many people across all the classes be successful in pvp/pve, despite there being problems with their class, they manage to find a way to overcome/work around it. Not only that, but when they figure out how to be successful, they post about it on the forums for everyone to see.
The forums here are filled with information and helping hands to help the average player get better and realize the potential of their class. If you don't take advantage of it and remain stuck in your head, thats your own fault.
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I actually do know what I'm talking about and it is a general maximum i'm referring to obviously.
There are multiple feat builds and multiple skill loadouts you can run, all with their strengths and weaknesses. The idea is to figure out what you want to do with your character, and then design your feat build and skill load out to make you the most effective at it, keeping in mind other things like your gear/enchants.
Many players have done this across all the classes, and many of them have posted here on the forums explaining how they succeed and have given adequate instructions on how to do so. If you remain stuck in your "I'm not the problem, its the game" bubble, then you shut yourself off from taking advantage of it.
Make a list for every class and explain to us all how each of them could potentially 1 shot somebody. Go.
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Most players in ANY MMO are casual and average in most aspects of the game. We are talking about the really good players who are not casual (well some may be) and definitely not average.
Now ANY player can use information to become better no argument there. However information and practice can only get people so far, and all MMO's are based off the worst players of their games unfortunately. Yet when you look at end-game practices and you find that the MAJORITY of parties formed do NOT want certain classes than there is a problem.
While sometimes it is lack of understanding on their part, the majority of the time it is because said class does NOT bring enough of something to the group. While great players might be able to close the gap, most average players will NEVER be able to come close to the great player.
Reflexes and hand-eye coordination is HUGE in DPS races and PvP some people have it some don't. Making a class that only benefits people with great hand-eye coordination is wrong no matter how you put it. This is the case in GW2 with their mage class. Only those that have exceptional hand-eye coordination and the ability to have 20+ keybinds can play that class at its fullest capacity.
The amount of those people are very slim and I would say somewhere near 97% of all players fall outside that exceptional title.
Anyway we can keep debating this issue and we won't get anywhere, it seems we both see things in a different light that the other person can't see so to each their own.
P.S. You play the most Overpowered class in the game so it is funny you would even talk about GWF's like you know them. (unless you have vids to show us that you have a level 60 GWF than you really should not be in this discussion.)
The only one that can't is the DC. Just go to youtube and learn from the masters, go l2skill from the best. Every class (except the DC, as far as I know) is capable of minimum 25k crits. I have seen 80k crits in pvp, I've been one shot by both rogues and wizards (not executes, 100% to 0% in one shot). My GWF isn't in great gear, but i've still had 12K+ crits. I've crit with bull's rush on my GF (12k GS, go see what the 14k+ GS ones hit for) for 12k+ without even knight's challenge for double damage. Like I said, you don't have a clue, you're just talking out of your ***. Take your own advice and learn from the "pros". You'll see GF's one shotting everything in sight.
PVP wise, due to rolling human with maxed toughness/armor specialization/unstoppable recovery, with only 13 con I'm currently sitting at 14.3k hp @ lvl 44, on top of 24% DR and 20% chance to deflect (which will increase by 5% in the next 5 levels). Surviving at this point is really easy as long as I don't attempt to engage more than 2 targets with less than half health.
I'll have to see how this fares at lvl 60 pug pvp.
I agree with most of what you said, however the mistake you're making is assuming that its only great/amazingly skilled intelligent players "closing the gap". It's just not. It's so pain-stakingly easy to do what I see many successful GWFs do all the time at 60. One of the best pvp'rs in the game right now is a GWF.
This line of argument is ridiculous, first off TR's are the most overpowered class in the game, then CW's, THEN GFs. Why? Simply because of Tenebrous enchants, thats really how you have to rank things at this moment. TR's are already the best class in pvp for killing purposes, when they have full tene enchants they become broken, to the point where you can just make a build centered around stayin stealthed and invulning, while you flurry down people at range. A good CW with full tenebs are second on the OP scale because they are casting at range. This means if they get one cc off they can pretty much decimate you in seconds, all while being safely at a distance.
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Because I don't play a GF already and destroy people on a daily basis? I'm already on youtube you cretin, look at my signature, click on Highlights. I know what I'm doing and I know what the classes are capable of. I have 14k+ gs and I play with people who are 14k+ gs. The only classes that can realistically 1 shot you are a TR or GF with Knights Challenge. If you get 1 shot by a CW you simply have **** gear and need more hp.
edit: And anyways, even if I were to grant you that every class can potentially 1 shot, then you're just arguing against yourself, because then everyone is potentially on equal footing.
Think about teneb enchants, if everyone in the game right now had full teneb enchants, noone would be complaining about them because everyone would be on equal footing. The only complaints that would come would be that pvp fights dont last long enough or something, but noone would be complaining about unfair advantages because everyone would have the advantage from the get go.
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If i was to make further adjustments, I'd buff the damage on mighty leap a bit more as it has no target cap - has always been great with steel blitz in CN.
They should remove the damage reduction on hitting 2-5 targets with WS/WMS too, really doesn't make any sense to have that small penalty in there when those skills are target capped by design.
I'd also feel roar is a bit too mandatory given the AP and Determination gain, would be nice if they could shift that into other areas as roar is counter intuitive to melee dps(non issue on large packs). They also didn't fix being able to Slam + Crescendo at the same time.
I originally thought the temp health on unstoppable was overkill as the skill gave a lot of survivability already but that was perhaps short sighted when factoring in AS uptime nerf + healing threat being split, very welcome change.
wait if the cw was 20-30% lower than you and the other gwf did 1/3 less damage than you isnt the gwf and cw close. so your guildie cw is doing nothing with the gwf and you're doing 1/3 more of nothing?
My guild and I play against good premades all the time in PvP, everyone has 14k+ GS, everyone hits hard, and there is still a lot of strategy involved. Especially when it comes to managing your points on the map.
We also hold in house matches or just play with other guilds and do 1v1s all the time. There is a good amount of skill involved in this game, particularly in PvP, even when people have the best stuff and do tons of damage.
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Lets leave PvP out of the discussion please, most could care less about that.
Character is what a man is in the dark
ROFLMAO if you think TR is more OP than GF you suck
In my point of view, rolling Sentinel to tank seems the most beneficial role for us, mostly by the moment you dont have a GF in your group, since clerics have problems now . You are not needed to tank any boss, just some big packs of adds to make your healers life easier. But by doing so, I don't know how much dmg we will loose, and how this can be better. Cleaving packs faster might be better than tanking them, since respawns can be an issue.
Anyway right now i try to farm my greater Plague Fire enchant , after that I think i might experiment with Sentinel a bit.
What is your gear vs the CW gear? I know all our gear is relatively the same but they are doing alot more damage than me, like 30-40 % more. Our TR is still wiping the floor with all of us in damage but the CW have really started closing the gap with the fixes they got and they can play off of each other now for dps (chill/arcane). I have tried full AoW set after patch but i normally run 2 AoW 2 Vig. I'm just not seeing a benefit to me coming, the group could easily short man it but they are being nice and bringing me along. If they removed our **** mob hit cap i would almost feel useful but atm the CW can just CC 20+ mobs at a time and then nuke them down. While me on the other hand has to sit there and hit 5 mobs at a time (and not always the same 5 per swing/ability)
So to sum it up, you are a cleave machine, lacking CC / aggro / more survivability , to be important. If you have a GF in group, a CW and cleric who know how to play, you are not a wasted spot, you can be beneficial (That ofcourse depends on the dungeon you are running). But in general ,you can not cover for their mistakes like a 2nd cleric /CW would do. Thats my opinion
I see this all the time. It's funny, because it actually isn't bad in PVE.
-With Destroyer feats and paired with Roar, you can charge up your Daily AND Unstoppable so fast it's not even funny.
-It doesn't do AOE damage on its own, but will proc Steel Blitz and any Weapon Enhancement to everything around you. I'm also pretty sure it procs Weapon Master, but I never remember to check while in the middle of battle.
-It provides extra survivability that was lost with the AS nerf.
-It marks and lowers resistance on anything hit, meaning that classes who don't build the full 22% armor pen will do more damage until you get hit.
-With enough recovery, you can make the cooldown less horrible. I personally have 3,394 Recovery which places it at 14.3 seconds.
I wouldn't mind a light cooldown reduction, but a little would go a very long way on that ability.
lol i can't argue w/ ppl that havn't experienced end-game builds, our gwf is faster then a mount when he sprints.. so idk how you fail but you have no idea what a gwf is capable of clearly.. i play with this gwf everyday ik how good they get. go pvp vs @venomous10 dragon server.
From #1 Guild Pve/Pvp [ Lemonade Stand ]
To be honest after i read this the only thing i can think of for your CW and TR is either Incompetent or afk. If they removed our hit cap i might be inclined to agree with you for the aoe but single target? come on funny joke, unless of course we are in full t2 setup and they are in greens .... lvl 50 greens.
Honestly I am not interested in hearing from people who dont do spider + dungeons as everything before that you can almost 3 man. I also don't care about the PVP aspect because that in and of itself is a can of worms i don't want to get into. I would also like to hear from the people who have another class besides GWF, say CW or TR as they are the other dps of the groups (yes, yes i know people want to argue that GWF are not dps they are tanks....) I am trying specifically to ask the people that are about as geared up as I am AoW type gear and ancient weapon/off hand. Do you honestly feel useful in groups? and i mean that as is the spot they gave you honestly being used by the best class? or would the group have been better with something else?
I am sorry to be blunt but after putting a lot of time and resources into my GWF I am feeling that in taking my GWF the group is loosing out on something that would make it easier or faster. If you do not understand what i mean log off your GWF create a CW and see how easy it is. The risk/effort vs reward to me just does not seem to be there.