There is a lot of good points made in this thread IMO.
My personal experience and opinion is that we are leveling to quickly. By just questing (including daily quests), on average I get to do a skirmish and dungeon in my level range once. I would like to run through them more than once, because sometimes the party you get is not so hot and you really don't get to enjoy the run. I personally would not mind seeing a 10%-25% XP reduction over all. What impact on the game might this have? I have no clue because I was not one of the developers. Do I think it will unbalance the game? I honestly don't see how. I do see a benefit to slowing down xp gain, the seals might actually become useful currency (see thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?337971-Seals-system-revamp-please )
Now, I do understand this may aggravate some players who enjoy being the first to reach 60 and twiddle their thumbs waiting for something new to come out so they can try to be the first to complete that as well. Or so they start a new character to do the same thing all over again. However, that is not my style of game play. I like to enjoy the zone and get to know the ins and outs of my class. Would decreasing the xp gain cause players to have to grind? Maybe. And what a shame that would be for a player of an MMO. It's not like the MMO's were created to allow players to players to group up and socialize with others after all. Perish the thought.
I think that a lot has been lost to the MMO genre of game when WoW came out (not that it is all their fault or that they could have seen this coming). But in my opinion, no penalty makes for sloppy players and leveling at a pace that is two fast to enjoy all the work the developers and graphic designers had put in to making this game happen. Now don't get me wrong, Everquest was a little harsh with the penalties for death, but it did make for much more skilled players and more time spent in the zones (at least that is my opinion). Everquest also still has the best end game (just sayin'). I lost many a level after hearing "Train to Zone", but I did learn to play my characters smarter over all. Now CoH had a decent alternative to losing levels with an XP deficit. I would be ok with that here as well. Don't get me wrong, it sucks to be in debt forever (been there done that), but then you can group with others that need help also. Hmm grouping in an MMO, what an unusual and crazy idea that is. ---Sorry I was on my soapbox for a moment there ---
The side kicking that was mentioned would not be a bad idea. However, unless loot scales (also as mentioned earlier) then it would never be used (except maybe to help a friend catch up). Who would want to run through a long dungeon and get to the end only to receive a reward that was useless to them at his level? They would also have to make sure that once in a dungeon / skirmish, that if they un-sk that they are booted from the instance. That way no one can exploit the zone. Again, this is just my opinion.
Now an XP % slider might be more useful (or even a button to turn it off). That would allow you to adjust your own xp gain. This could let you slow down for friends, enjoy a zone longer, etc. It wouldn't affect those that like to race to the top. I see it as a win win solution. Would it be hard to implement? No clue, but I don't believe it would. The mechanics seem fairly simple.
Instead of dropping xp from leadership and invoking, add a button or check box to disable the xp. That will keep the level racers happy as well.
Well, these are just my opinions. Comment as you like I won't be offended. But just know, if you don't agree with me, then you are stupid. Just kidding
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hkfrenchtoastMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 24Arc User
edited June 2013
You can never please anyone. If they make leveling hard, there will just be forum threads about how hard leveling is. People are always whining about things.
Never doubt Aandre. Total respect for Pizzamurai. In fact we just had a good laugh on pm.
I am neutral 98% of the time. Thankfully, Cryptic allows us to have our own opinions, which on occasion we have. On rare occasion, we may even feel strongly about our opinion.
Yes Pizza and I were a bit over the top. But its ok to have discussions, even passionate ones, as long as their is mutual respect and we aren't attacking each other.
Agreed. We all get a bit passionate now and again, and I can't really fault Andre cause of the interactive poll thread (of which I'm still hoping can kick start some progress, even though a couple of those items now have already been confirmed namely the balancing stuff which was all likely to happen anyway. Thankfully not the exp nerf :P)
And as a side note I'm also a guardian, but who's counting? XD
I reached level 60 on my first character in under a week's time simply by playing PvP. Why does PvP give insane amounts of experience, it not only takes you quickly past your quest levels but it also takes you out of low level PvP so much faster and many would like to stay at the lower levels in PvP. Such insane PvP exp leveling also makes placing gems in equipment non-necessary as you will outgrow your equipment in a very quick time.
Well, leveling is sooooooooo easy and fast that you dont even enjoy it... i fail to understand how can anyone be below the level requirements! After my first toon, when i discovered that was outleveling content, every other 60 toon (and i have 4 and saving a little AD to get 2 new spaces for DC and next Ranger) i had to think how to manage the questing to no outlevel them... with TR has been impossible, i did not a single foundry, no dayly, not exploring to avoid overkilling mobs... and yet i had to skip the chasm(my favorite questing in my first toon ) because i outleveled it!.
Next toon, CW, avoided foundry, daylys, exploring, invoking, skpped trash mobs during questing... and yet again, missed last part of the chasm and had to avoid a part of icespire's peak!
all of that with the feeling of all the solo content being so ridiculously easy that when i read in the zone chat people needing help to finish some content i wonder how is that even posible!
I have an idea that may be kinda weird... but what about an option during Toon creation. Exp gain: 100%/75%/50%/25% and Extra hardcore version 1 life toon, when it dies it dies. that will have a little impact on developing of the game but a huge impact on the way people can play the game, i will then be able to play the ranger while exploring, killing whatever comes in the way, doing daylys to get some money, invoking to tymora (i'm a gambler afterall) and still being capable to play the quest line, the skirmishes... and having some feeling of danger! heck... during TR Questing i didnt die once till mount hotenow's final giant! and i started buying pots in icespires peak because i had more than enough with the ones i got from nodes, mobs, rewarding boxes...
Please devs that option would please everyone... and going all in with a 1 life toon would be awesome! (make an expensive RESSURRECTION scroll zen item for those!)
They should allow u to shut off xp when u desire to, easy fix and nobody of the community gets harmed.
They should also make lvl 60 skirmishes, just scale them to lvl 60 and allow qeue for all of them at 60, smashing lvl 60 ogres?
yes please o.O
Petram Sacram - I am no devine cleric, i am a Gaurdian fighter in disguise with better threat and supportive spells -
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kalizaarMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
I think they should definitely kill the XP from invoking. I have 3 characters that I haven't played much at all that have gained 5+ levels just from logging in and invoking to get my coins before logging to another character. Other XP decreases (smartly chosen of course), a Stop XP button, and side-kicking would all be welcome in my opinion. And I would want the Stop XP button AND side-kicking, not either or. They both server very important functions.
My main character that has tasted a bit of all content (Leadership, Invoking, Daily, PvP, Dungeons, Skirmishes, exploring, Foundry, quests, joining friends that are behind me in quest lines) has out-leveled most skirmishes and dungeons, and has skipped 3 zones now I think because they were too low.
When new classes come out I'm basically going to have to plan which zones, skirmishes, and dungeons I want to do for sure and understand that I'll end up skipping other ones due to over-leveling. That's just silly. Either that or make sure I don't do any crafting, invoking, PvP, or Foundry quests. Again... silly.
What is this underlevel????? You are playing a Dungeons & Dragons product. EXPLORE A LITTLE!!!!!!!
"Hit your head against mobs" .... are you kidding me!?
Hahahahaha, I'm sorry, that's just hilarious. You would barely notice a 25% cut in xp.
I truly believe a 75% readjustment is needed to run the entire storyline, all skirmishes and delves, and do some Foundry. What was/is the point of putting so much marketing muscle behind the Foundry if you can't fit it into your leveling strategy. Even at a 75% cut, it makes a one week ride to 60, a four week ride. Oh my God a whole month to get to end game!
I remember when an Adventure took me a year to complete and I was only 15th Level at the end. 60 Levels in 120 Hours! Madness.
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2013
Pen and paper is much, much more enjoyable at lower levels than any Video Game.
And there's really no way to change it other than to make it feel like it advances faster than it does.
I love NWN and enjoyed the slow curve most servers used...
But doing those first 5-8 levels was nothing more than a chore every single time. I loved leveling characters but the first 5-8 were always so very tiresome.
Pen and paper is much, much more enjoyable at lower levels than any Video Game.
And there's really no way to change it other than to make it feel like it advances faster than it does.
I love NWN and enjoyed the slow curve most servers used...
But doing those first 5-8 levels was nothing more than a chore every single time. I loved leveling characters but the first 5-8 were always so very tiresome.
Eh, To each their own I guess, Those first few levels gave me time to develop my play style an feel out the mechanics. In the FF series I never topped 50th level by end game unless I used cheat codes.
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2013
I loved level 9-19.
Characters that reached level 20 were dead to me.
I already had my build planned before I ever even created a character. The first levels were just the grind until things started to actually take shape and often lacked any interesting mechanics other than the occasional "<censor>, darn crit strikes! Run for your life!" moments.
I always preferred the journey over the end but the first few levels are nasty in D&D Games. Even the glorious Baldur's Gate has pretty lack-luster level 1-3 or so.
EDIT - I must say NW has done a decent job with low level entertainment but then again that's the entire 4E Concept. Make characters feel like level 20's at level 1. Meh. Haha.
There's not enough content in this game for slower levelling. Maybe at some point down the line but not yet.
I think most people...or at least a lot of people don't feel this way. There are plenty of zones for you to leveling in by doing quests, yet most people skip half the zones. That fact alone, tells us that there needs to be some XP reductions. The most glaring are XP from invocation and XP from PVP, imo. However, as many others have stated, being able to sidekick down would allow us to get those missed skirmishes, or even a NO XP option would be useful too.
Foundry - Fight Club? (nw-dluqbofu7)
- JailBreak (in development)
I read this whole entire thread and I'm truly baffled by some of the responses in it. This game HAS NO WORLD TO EXPLORE, there is nothing too explore. Each zone you follow a predetermined quest layout which lets you move around a map that offers No exploration in this game at all. Where the hell is the open world feel of the MMO Part of this game, here go do these quests in this tiny *** little zone and that's our way of allowing players to explore this wonderful rich world we created for gamers using the D&D setting? Really? That's it?
Experience gains in this game are way, way, WAY too High. Hell you get xp from going and praying to your god which = out to about as much xp as doing 2 quests. It took me all of 5 days to go from 1-60 on my cw, which isn't the shortest amount of time I've invested in a game to level a character to max level, but those other games moto wasn't about the journey to reach max level it was what was waiting for you at the end of that journey.
At the end of my journey in this game I get to spend my time throwing mobs off the side of cliffs so we can totally bypass the need to kill the monsters in these dungeons. I get to participate in Over tuned boss fights with No real unique boss mechanics (I don't count giant *** Aoe zones, followed up with massive add spawns and more giant *** aoe zones) to be considered awesome unique boss fights as my form of end game content. Work on your professions, Really? What professions they do little in the way of offering you any real substance in this game.
When a game developer sets out to make an MMO don't you think one of the most important Criteria is too make sure you create an open world for players to explore? To give players that feel as though they are playing in the world of D&D and not just playing a mini game inside a town? Hey, your world is protectors enclave go explore it, once you are done come back and I'll give you quests to go explore (no I mean) to go travel to these other hubs too do quests.
I want to get on my mount ride outside protectors enclave and explore the world of D&D. I want to travel to other places with my friends, to experience what it would be like to take all those years I played the pnp D&D and see it in a game format with other players sharing in my fun.
Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor.
~Sholom Aleichem
As a player who likes Alts, I find the xp gain speed perfectly fine. I can look forward to different zones on my 2,3,4, 5th character. However, I understand that others want to complete everything with one character. COH did indeed have a "stop xp gain" button and I think that is the best option to allow people choices in how they want to play the game.
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neo1313Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Wrong. I am telling you an exp nerf will throw off the entire balance of the game pertaining to leveling. With sidekicking, level is NEVER an issue, as a level 10 could join a 50 dungeon and be mildly competitive. A level 50 could join the queue for blacklake terror and be scaled all the way down to that level to experience it without being able to faceroll or ruin everyone elses exp.
Sidekicking is the best of both worlds, and the only solution without creating several more questing zones for each level bracket and there are literally no true downsides.
Are you honestly arguing against people choosing what they want to do?
Just give them an exp slider that goes from 10% exp earned to 100% (to prevent level locking).. Problem solved.
I leveled 2 toons so far, and tried slightly different approaches on both. Both ended up at lvl 60 well before the storyline ended. You either have to skip whole zones or buy all your gear from the AH, which probably isn't the way it was intended to be played. It didn't really feel like the experience needed to be nerfed though, it felt like the game needed more of an exponent to the leveling curve. Level 59 went just as fast as level 9, that's what didn't feel right. Of course if you steepen the exponent of the curve, then more quests and dailies would need to be added to the higher levels to compensate. They could also curb the problem by restricting access to the foundry quests until you are lvl 40+.
On the other hand, I'm never satisfied with my companions, so it seems I'm forever trying to level up a new companion to test out its worthiness....so maybe a way they could ease both dilemmas is to make it possible to dump our earned experience back into our companions. The player levels slower, the companion levels quicker. That way the ultimate choice in the matter is up to the player.
Regardless of what they decide to do, I just hope they do something soon before it goes live.
Comments
My personal experience and opinion is that we are leveling to quickly. By just questing (including daily quests), on average I get to do a skirmish and dungeon in my level range once. I would like to run through them more than once, because sometimes the party you get is not so hot and you really don't get to enjoy the run. I personally would not mind seeing a 10%-25% XP reduction over all. What impact on the game might this have? I have no clue because I was not one of the developers. Do I think it will unbalance the game? I honestly don't see how. I do see a benefit to slowing down xp gain, the seals might actually become useful currency (see thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?337971-Seals-system-revamp-please )
Now, I do understand this may aggravate some players who enjoy being the first to reach 60 and twiddle their thumbs waiting for something new to come out so they can try to be the first to complete that as well. Or so they start a new character to do the same thing all over again. However, that is not my style of game play. I like to enjoy the zone and get to know the ins and outs of my class. Would decreasing the xp gain cause players to have to grind? Maybe. And what a shame that would be for a player of an MMO. It's not like the MMO's were created to allow players to players to group up and socialize with others after all. Perish the thought.
I think that a lot has been lost to the MMO genre of game when WoW came out (not that it is all their fault or that they could have seen this coming). But in my opinion, no penalty makes for sloppy players and leveling at a pace that is two fast to enjoy all the work the developers and graphic designers had put in to making this game happen. Now don't get me wrong, Everquest was a little harsh with the penalties for death, but it did make for much more skilled players and more time spent in the zones (at least that is my opinion). Everquest also still has the best end game (just sayin'). I lost many a level after hearing "Train to Zone", but I did learn to play my characters smarter over all. Now CoH had a decent alternative to losing levels with an XP deficit. I would be ok with that here as well. Don't get me wrong, it sucks to be in debt forever (been there done that), but then you can group with others that need help also. Hmm grouping in an MMO, what an unusual and crazy idea that is. ---Sorry I was on my soapbox for a moment there ---
The side kicking that was mentioned would not be a bad idea. However, unless loot scales (also as mentioned earlier) then it would never be used (except maybe to help a friend catch up). Who would want to run through a long dungeon and get to the end only to receive a reward that was useless to them at his level? They would also have to make sure that once in a dungeon / skirmish, that if they un-sk that they are booted from the instance. That way no one can exploit the zone. Again, this is just my opinion.
Now an XP % slider might be more useful (or even a button to turn it off). That would allow you to adjust your own xp gain. This could let you slow down for friends, enjoy a zone longer, etc. It wouldn't affect those that like to race to the top. I see it as a win win solution. Would it be hard to implement? No clue, but I don't believe it would. The mechanics seem fairly simple.
Instead of dropping xp from leadership and invoking, add a button or check box to disable the xp. That will keep the level racers happy as well.
Well, these are just my opinions. Comment as you like I won't be offended. But just know, if you don't agree with me, then you are stupid. Just kidding
Agreed. We all get a bit passionate now and again, and I can't really fault Andre cause of the interactive poll thread (of which I'm still hoping can kick start some progress, even though a couple of those items now have already been confirmed namely the balancing stuff which was all likely to happen anyway. Thankfully not the exp nerf :P)
And as a side note I'm also a guardian, but who's counting? XD
Next toon, CW, avoided foundry, daylys, exploring, invoking, skpped trash mobs during questing... and yet again, missed last part of the chasm and had to avoid a part of icespire's peak!
all of that with the feeling of all the solo content being so ridiculously easy that when i read in the zone chat people needing help to finish some content i wonder how is that even posible!
I have an idea that may be kinda weird... but what about an option during Toon creation. Exp gain: 100%/75%/50%/25% and Extra hardcore version 1 life toon, when it dies it dies. that will have a little impact on developing of the game but a huge impact on the way people can play the game, i will then be able to play the ranger while exploring, killing whatever comes in the way, doing daylys to get some money, invoking to tymora (i'm a gambler afterall) and still being capable to play the quest line, the skirmishes... and having some feeling of danger! heck... during TR Questing i didnt die once till mount hotenow's final giant! and i started buying pots in icespires peak because i had more than enough with the ones i got from nodes, mobs, rewarding boxes...
Please devs that option would please everyone... and going all in with a 1 life toon would be awesome! (make an expensive RESSURRECTION scroll zen item for those!)
They should also make lvl 60 skirmishes, just scale them to lvl 60 and allow qeue for all of them at 60, smashing lvl 60 ogres?
yes please o.O
My main character that has tasted a bit of all content (Leadership, Invoking, Daily, PvP, Dungeons, Skirmishes, exploring, Foundry, quests, joining friends that are behind me in quest lines) has out-leveled most skirmishes and dungeons, and has skipped 3 zones now I think because they were too low.
When new classes come out I'm basically going to have to plan which zones, skirmishes, and dungeons I want to do for sure and understand that I'll end up skipping other ones due to over-leveling. That's just silly. Either that or make sure I don't do any crafting, invoking, PvP, or Foundry quests. Again... silly.
And there's really no way to change it other than to make it feel like it advances faster than it does.
I love NWN and enjoyed the slow curve most servers used...
But doing those first 5-8 levels was nothing more than a chore every single time. I loved leveling characters but the first 5-8 were always so very tiresome.
Characters that reached level 20 were dead to me.
I already had my build planned before I ever even created a character. The first levels were just the grind until things started to actually take shape and often lacked any interesting mechanics other than the occasional "<censor>, darn crit strikes! Run for your life!" moments.
I always preferred the journey over the end but the first few levels are nasty in D&D Games. Even the glorious Baldur's Gate has pretty lack-luster level 1-3 or so.
EDIT - I must say NW has done a decent job with low level entertainment but then again that's the entire 4E Concept. Make characters feel like level 20's at level 1. Meh. Haha.
Ancient Shadows: Mature. Sensible. Custard.
Recruitment info at: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?462591-Ancient-Shadows-Become-a-Lion-Tamer-without-learning-Chartered-Accountancy-first!&highlight=ancient+shadows
I think most people...or at least a lot of people don't feel this way. There are plenty of zones for you to leveling in by doing quests, yet most people skip half the zones. That fact alone, tells us that there needs to be some XP reductions. The most glaring are XP from invocation and XP from PVP, imo. However, as many others have stated, being able to sidekick down would allow us to get those missed skirmishes, or even a NO XP option would be useful too.
- JailBreak (in development)
Experience gains in this game are way, way, WAY too High. Hell you get xp from going and praying to your god which = out to about as much xp as doing 2 quests. It took me all of 5 days to go from 1-60 on my cw, which isn't the shortest amount of time I've invested in a game to level a character to max level, but those other games moto wasn't about the journey to reach max level it was what was waiting for you at the end of that journey.
At the end of my journey in this game I get to spend my time throwing mobs off the side of cliffs so we can totally bypass the need to kill the monsters in these dungeons. I get to participate in Over tuned boss fights with No real unique boss mechanics (I don't count giant *** Aoe zones, followed up with massive add spawns and more giant *** aoe zones) to be considered awesome unique boss fights as my form of end game content. Work on your professions, Really? What professions they do little in the way of offering you any real substance in this game.
When a game developer sets out to make an MMO don't you think one of the most important Criteria is too make sure you create an open world for players to explore? To give players that feel as though they are playing in the world of D&D and not just playing a mini game inside a town? Hey, your world is protectors enclave go explore it, once you are done come back and I'll give you quests to go explore (no I mean) to go travel to these other hubs too do quests.
I want to get on my mount ride outside protectors enclave and explore the world of D&D. I want to travel to other places with my friends, to experience what it would be like to take all those years I played the pnp D&D and see it in a game format with other players sharing in my fun.
Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor.
~Sholom Aleichem
Just give them an exp slider that goes from 10% exp earned to 100% (to prevent level locking).. Problem solved.
On the other hand, I'm never satisfied with my companions, so it seems I'm forever trying to level up a new companion to test out its worthiness....so maybe a way they could ease both dilemmas is to make it possible to dump our earned experience back into our companions. The player levels slower, the companion levels quicker. That way the ultimate choice in the matter is up to the player.
Regardless of what they decide to do, I just hope they do something soon before it goes live.