Just an add-on for us stealthers. The emergency 'fill up my stealth bar asap' skill you use when you take massive dmg and role out of combat thus loosing the rotation is shadow strike. If thats not available i found out that using smoke bomb followed immediately by 3 hits of GC (just don't loose any time to manage this, hit smoke bomb and immediately hit GC) followed by a shift role will fill your bar again. Of course any archers or mages that are outside the area of the smoke bomb will lower your bar and not let you hide.
I just felt i had to share this.
Btw trent82 keep up the feedback you are saving me a lot of experiments. (82 december as well )
Since the new t2 PVP set gives 25% stealth meter instead of 20%, would that allow you to go non-int completely now since it scales with your dodge refill as well?
0
dbb2003Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited June 2013
Hi ... i have a question. What du you think is better. Brutal Backstab (25% more damage by crit in stealth) or critical teamwork ( 5% more crit). I mean you can get only one of this because i want to stay with deadly momentum because i want also play a full damage build. For the 5% crit i think you need more or less 1000 crit. And so i need all my offensive slots with azure enchantments to get the 5% crit back ( without critical teamwork i have only 39% crit). So what do you tink ... which one is better for this build ?
( oh and a stupid question is it possible to go in a epic dungeon without a group ? because i am not in a guild ... and so its a little bit difficult to come in a epic dungeon alone to try the build )
hi i'm new with the tr and have read the whole thread, atm i have the battlefield set 4/4 with the battlefield mh dagger and master duelist's parrying blade. stats are 20str/20dex/17int/16cha
i have the ad/g for sinister 2/4 set (bracers and boots). but i would give up the +20% stealth bonus for crit and some recovery stats, should i wait and farm for the expensive items or do you think it would be okay?
If anybody else is doing the solo dungeon challenge with this build, I have some tips for soloing Idris if you get stuck. She's actually not that hard if you slot ITC.
Nice. You're doing the challenge already? I actually had a hard time with Idris and took much more damage on her dungeon as compared to the higher leveled dungeons such as the Wolf Den. Had to slot ITC too so I could negate the black daze orbs she likes to spam. Any and all input will definitely be useful for beginners and veterans alike, l0th4ri0! Please keep up the good service.
Just an add-on for us stealthers. The emergency 'fill up my stealth bar asap' skill you use when you take massive dmg and role out of combat thus loosing the rotation is shadow strike. If thats not available i found out that using smoke bomb followed immediately by 3 hits of GC (just don't loose any time to manage this, hit smoke bomb and immediately hit GC) followed by a shift role will fill your bar again. Of course any archers or mages that are outside the area of the smoke bomb will lower your bar and not let you hide.
I just felt i had to share this.
Btw trent82 keep up the feedback you are saving me a lot of experiments. (82 december as well )
Good input. I didn't know that Smoke Bomb, 3 GC's + a Dodge Roll would refill our stealth meter quickly. I think I'll try this out on the training dummies later so I can get it down right. It will definitely be useful on group play since we tend to slot Smoke Bomb for the benefit of the entire party. I personally like this one.
Since the new t2 PVP set gives 25% stealth meter instead of 20%, would that allow you to go non-int completely now since it scales with your dodge refill as well?
Hey, Zellista. I assure you that we need very minimal INT for this build. Mine is only 12 and I can keep up the permastealth rotation in PVE settings even if it's just Gloaming Cut + Shadow Strike, provided that I dodge twice before using Shadow Strike again. It has very little room for error, though. In order to increase that room for error, stacking up on Recovery would be a tremendous help. From the tests of one of our big contributors, Trent82, the DPS of this Stealth Build tends to go up the higher our Recovery stat is thanks to us being able to collect more AP for Lurker's Assault and being able to use 1 Duelist's Fury per Stealth Refill. This means we can keep up a decent stack of Bleeds, and we still get to keep the permastealth rotation.
I definitely would go for the T2 PVP set. 25% Stealth Meter + 5% damage while in stealth is so juicy, no stealth rogue can resist it. And yes it actually does scale with our dodge refills which makes this gear all the more desirable. I sure hope I can participate in another Gauntlgrym match again.
Hi ... i have a question. What du you think is better. Brutal Backstab (25% more damage by crit in stealth) or critical teamwork ( 5% more crit). I mean you can get only one of this because i want to stay with deadly momentum because i want also play a full damage build. For the 5% crit i think you need more or less 1000 crit. And so i need all my offensive slots with azure enchantments to get the 5% crit back ( without critical teamwork i have only 39% crit). So what do you tink ... which one is better for this build ?
( oh and a stupid question is it possible to go in a epic dungeon without a group ? because i am not in a guild ... and so its a little bit difficult to come in a epic dungeon alone to try the build )
Hey, dbb2003! Thank you for taking the time to browse the guide. As for my input regarding which feat might be better, I believe you definitely should go for Brutal Backstab. However, if you truly wish to take Critical Teamwork, I suggest dropping Deadly Momentum. +15% added Critical Severity is nice, but we'll rarely get to use this as we tend to use Gloaming Cut much more than Duelist's Fury. In order to stay in Stealth for a prolonged period of time, to the point of permanence, Gloaming Cut helps us a lot. Duelist's Fury dishes out a lot of damage, but the Deadly Momentum feat has been severely gimped. The bonus you and your teammates get from Critical Teamwork far outweighs the perks you get from Deadly Momentum and the best part is that it's always active.
hi i'm new with the tr and have read the whole thread, atm i have the battlefield set 4/4 with the battlefield mh dagger and master duelist's parrying blade. stats are 20str/20dex/17int/16cha
i have the ad/g for sinister 2/4 set (bracers and boots). but i would give up the +20% stealth bonus for crit and some recovery stats, should i wait and farm for the expensive items or do you think it would be okay?
Hello, and thank you for taking the time to read the guide. I personally like your stat distribution. 17 INT gives a decent CD reduction. First and foremost I believe it is imperative that you have 4/4 Battlefield Scavenger on. The +450 stats you get from getting a 2/4 + 2/4 set grows pale in comparison to the survivability you get from having an additional +20% Stealth Meter. All your Stealth Refill feats scale depending on your current maximum Stealth Meter as well which makes them even more effective the more Stealth bonuses you get.
If you really wish for a better set of gear, please try farming for the T2 Gauntlgrym PVP set for us TR's once Gauntlgrym hits the game again. It's the BiS gear for us right now.
If by any chance there are further need for clarifications please do not hesitate to ask!
Nice. You're doing the challenge already? I actually had a hard time with Idris and took much more damage on her dungeon as compared to the higher leveled dungeons such as the Wolf Den. Had to slot ITC too so I could negate the black daze orbs she likes to spam. Any and all input will definitely be useful for beginners and veterans alike, l0th4ri0! Please keep up the good service.
Haha, yeah I've been soloing the 5-man dungeons as well as doing all the normal content while leveling. The Wolf Den is next on my list. I'm not gonna lie... the 5-man dungeons are NOT easy.
For all the new folks out there: the mobs in these dungeons have like 4-5 times the health (or more) of ones you would meet outside in the same zone, and the dozens and dozens of elite mobs you face have equivalent HPs to a major boss for the normal "outside the dungeon" content. You will literally be spending a good 3-4 hours just trying to get to the dungeon boss, and when you do, unless you have a game plan figured out, count on dying and/or going through so many healing potions that it is ridiculous. Standard guides on the wiki will be of very little help to you when it comes to these ultra-bosses, because you do not have 5 people to fill roles. You are on your own, every mob is trying to kill you and you alone, and there is nowhere you can go that they won't try to come and get you.
In no other setting is this build tested like this. And I personally think it speaks to the basic class design and solid mechanics of the TR in general that the rogue is the only class that could possibly try to pull off a stunt like this and succeed. I tried soloing the Cloak Tower with a CW a long time ago when I was tying out the classes and it was literally impossible. I got to the first mini-boss of that dungeon and could not get any farther because he and his adds just burned me down faster than I could chug heal pots. I was quite overleveled (I think lvl 25) as well.
Then I tried the TR and found this build.
Cloak Tower fell to me at level 17. I barely used health pots at all. Cragmire Crypts was conquered at level 28. The Lair of the Mad Dragon I had to quit out of due to time constraints that day, but I beat past the second pit fiend boss and was on my way after that. Idris just fell last night. This build works.
With a boss like Idris, you have to have crackerjack timing and without that extra help from the feats and the slotted powers that todesfaelle has suggested, she could very well be close to impossible without chugging 99 health pots. If you know the magic formula with this class, you won't need any. After I discovered the solution to taking her down I used zero health pots, but I had to die twice to figure out what I needed to do.
The trick is to clear the shelf under her dais, clear the next level up, and then pull as little aggro as possible on one of the sides of her dais so that you can smack down the mobs without alerting her. Then after all that is prepared, barely get close enough to alert her and run down to the bottom tier of the battle ground and deal with the skeleton archers and zombies she summons. You will be dodging like a madman and dropping BaS dummies like its going out of style until you can pop a Lurkers and hunt them all down in stealth and destroy them. Now you should just be facing Idris herself and two zombie hulks. Take a deep breath, because now you're at the tricky part. Run to concealment behind one of the pillars with ITC and BaS ready to go. Lurkers is nice, but optional and not required. Idris will be hurling her six stun balls in every direction as she closes on you, and when the zombies following her are right on the other side of your pillar, pop stealth, run to Idris, pop ITC and then go through a DF rotation to apply some bleeds... probably about 4 or 5 with one go, and then dodge out of there before the invulnerability from ITC wears off. Drop a BaS dummy as you run to the other side of the room to hide behind another pillar and wait for your CDs to wear off. You will have plenty of time to get all your skills back before the zombies and Idris are in your face again. If you are wearing regen gear, you will be healing nicely if you got a little sloppy and ate some damage.
Do the above ambushing rotation about 30 times and Idris will be dead. If you leave her zombie hulks alone she will not summon any more adds, which is nice. If you kill one of the hulks, it will be replaced with a fresh one and a squad of skeleton archers as well, so just leave them alone until after she's gone.
Great input as usual, Trent. You're doing a valuable service for our small community of Stealth TR's, I say. I was thinking the same thing. While TR's do gain a lot of damage via their encounters the higher our Power stat is, we tend to never use damage-related encounters anyway, aside from PVP that is. I absolutely can't wait to slot my gear with R6 - R7 Silvery Enchants. Maybe I'll get some Surgeon's Bands on the side for extra Recovery and added Crit. By any chance, would it be possible for you to take a screenie of Set B so we'd have a rough idea of what to expect in order to get the Recovery you currently have right now? Much thanks, Trent!
Heh, I only have Rank 5 Silvery Enchantments myself. I've been playing around with different gear sets so much I haven't had the time to save up for anything better.
Right now, I have the full Battlefield Scavenger's set, two Thickgristle's Jagged Daggers (with Rank 5 Silvery on both), Insignia of the Sovereignty (Rank 5 Silvery), two Minor Grand Slavemaster's Ring of Control (Rank 5 Silvery on both), Occult Belt of Restoration (Rank 5 Silvery), and a Gemmed Embroidered Shirt (Rank 5 Silvery), which puts my gear score at 9376. I also have a rank 25 Ioun Stone of Allure with two Rank 5 Arcane Runestones, one Rank 5 Eldritch Runestone, another Minor Grand Slavemaster's Ring of Control (Rank 5 Silvery), another Insignia of the Sovereignty (Rank 5 Silvery), and a Greater Icon of Blue Fire (Rank 5 Silvery).
Altogether with 19 Str, 12 Con, 26 Dex, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 15 Cha that puts me at 2346 Power, 43.4% Crit, 11.7% Armor Penetration, and 22.1% Recovery. I usually have Skillful Infiltrator and Tactics slotted during PVE.
As an aside, I've done some more experimenting with the practice dummies and found my old rotation of Bait and Switch/Duelist's Flurry/Gloaming Cut/Lashing Blade/Shadow Strike/Duelist's Flurry/Gloaming Cut to be much more efficient with my Recovery where it is at now. A stealthed Lashing Blade nets you a HUGE amount of your AP bar once you get a good Recovery (I'd estimate around 10-15% of my bar fills up when I use it) and it also gives your Bait and Switch an extra second or two to recharge as you re-stealth after Shadow Strike. I actually managed to get over 6K DPS using that rotation and still maintaining stealth the entire time except for when I drop out using Lashing Blade.
Its obviously not an ideal rotation if you're soloing or if you anticipate a lo of unavoidable AoEs coming your way (Impossible to Catch is king in those situations), but doing dungeons with a group it will probably be my go-to setup for the time being.
@l0th4ri0: Nice one. Idris is practically one of the hardest low level dungeons due to the fact that it's one of the first bosses that is able to detect us from stealth. It's also filled with the Shadar-Kai Witches who use the black daze orbs which home in on us even though they can't detect us. Props, man. You conquered one of the most challenging dungeons for Stealth TR's. I personally am very happy for you! I also learned some new tricks from your post, particularly the one about the Zombie Hulks. Good find!
@trent82: Now this contains all the info I need. I'll be searching for these items as soon as I get home. Good thing Rank 6 Silveries only cost around 10k on Mindflayer. R7 Silvers are on a whole new price range though. I'll burn out some Glory later for a new PVP set, and slot them with better enchants. I have rank 5's on mine so far. On a side note, I actually do the same thing as you are doing when on group setups. Provided that we have not yet reached boss areas. I usually slot Bait and Switch, Shadow Strike and Smoke Bomb/Lashing Blade, depending on what the party needs. But anyway, I'm excited to rework my gear later for recovery.
Just thought I'd mention this but I also met a fellow Stealth TR a while back in a PVP match. We became friends and he's also using a Recovery spec for this build. It's awesome. I noticed he was able to pop Lurker's much more usual than I do. Either way, it's pretty fun to have another Stealth TR in a match and one that's on your side.
I learned some neat new tricks from this new friend of mine, particularly a good counter for Stealth TR's in PVP; Bilethorn Enchants. It severely messed up my rotations when I faced up against him and I had to run to the other side. Totally caught by surprise. Props to Tiduss of Mindflayer! Was fun being able to run PVP matches with your guildies.
It was a pretty fun time in pvp today. It gets pretty hilarious harassing 4 of them on their node trying to cap it back. Keep up with the good work with this guide - it's a good inspiration to many rogues, and a lot of nightmare for the opposition~
First off, I think I'm done with Sly Flourish. When you have 3 ranks in Gloaming Cut and 5/5 Sneaky Stabber as suggested in this guide, there is no reason to go back. My other at-will is Duelist's Flurry, and it got a workout in the wolf den tonight.
As per the standard 5-man dungeon layout, there are 2 mini-bosses and the end stage boss in the Gray Wolf Den. As usual, between these considerably dangerous opponents are tons and tons of elite mobs and trash mobs with bucketfuls of health. Of particular note for this area are the 40-50 Werewolf Scavengers you will face that like to leap around and dodge out of DF range. One trick I found to deal with these troublesome foes is to clear out everybody else and then draw them into tight alcoves or corners where their leaping back puts them against a wall and does not let them escape your daggers. The other elite mobs have powerful attacks and KD, but these can be avoided easily if you are paying attention.
When it comes to soloing the mini-bosses here, the name of the game is "Ambush and Displace". What this means is that you strike hard from stealth and then pull away, moving the battle to a place of your choosing. If you stay within the confines of the two mini-boss areas, you will have to deal with respawning archers and/or wave after wave of melee trash that appears out of thin air and tries to gnaw on your favorite bodily appendage. Displacing away from those respawning mobs gives you the breathing room that you need as a soloist to focus down on the big guys and knock them out. Squads of archers are your worst enemy in this setting, and should be terminated pronto before you are forced to gulp down a dozen healing pots.
The end boss for me was somewhat anticlimactic. Keep in mind that I have never done any of these dungeons before, so I have no idea what to expect when I dive into these places. I will say that Idris was about ten times harder for me, and the only time I was ever in any real danger in that last fight in the Den was when the Boss spawned a squad of archers a couple of times, and that was the only time I had to chug potions to keep going. Otherwise, Duelist's Furry burned her down pretty quick, and I think it may have taken longer to clean up her melee adds after she was dead so that I could finally loot the Delve Event chest.
I leveled to 42 midway through the dungeon, and I am still using my regen gear... some of it is pretty low level for me now LOL I think one of my rings might be level 28. I've been having fairly bad luck finding more regen stuff as I'm going, but at least my daggers are up to date. That probably matters more than anything else. I used about 15 healing pots while soloing The Den, and these were used when I got archer-spawned and pretty much nowhere else. Getting caught out of stealth with a surprise wave of archers is no picnic. hahaha
PS Thanks for the kind words earlier, todesfaelle! I hope you don't mind me posting my little snippets here in your thread. I'm trying to keep it as short as I can so as to not derail the general discussion about the build, but I know my last couple of posts were pretty long LOL Sorry, man!
It was a pretty fun time in pvp today. It gets pretty hilarious harassing 4 of them on their node trying to cap it back. Keep up with the good work with this guide - it's a good inspiration to many rogues, and a lot of nightmare for the opposition~
Hey, man. Thanks for the kind words and I'm glad to see you dropping by the thread! The matches were fun indeed. Let's have another set sometime when you guys are missing another person!
This is a super useful guide and has really helped me find my place as a rogue. This is the build I was looking for! Thanks for sharing.
It's my pleasure and it makes me happy to hear that you are having a blast with it! Thank you for trying this build, puckfanla. And please feel free to share your experiences or discoveries as a Stealth TR sometime.
First off, I think I'm done with Sly Flourish. When you have 3 ranks in Gloaming Cut and 5/5 Sneaky Stabber as suggested in this guide, there is no reason to go back. My other at-will is Duelist's Flurry, and it got a workout in the wolf den tonight.
As per the standard 5-man dungeon layout, there are 2 mini-bosses and the end stage boss in the Gray Wolf Den. As usual, between these considerably dangerous opponents are tons and tons of elite mobs and trash mobs with bucketfuls of health. Of particular note for this area are the 40-50 Werewolf Scavengers you will face that like to leap around and dodge out of DF range. One trick I found to deal with these troublesome foes is to clear out everybody else and then draw them into tight alcoves or corners where their leaping back puts them against a wall and does not let them escape your daggers. The other elite mobs have powerful attacks and KD, but these can be avoided easily if you are paying attention.
When it comes to soloing the mini-bosses here, the name of the game is "Ambush and Displace". What this means is that you strike hard from stealth and then pull away, moving the battle to a place of your choosing. If you stay within the confines of the two mini-boss areas, you will have to deal with respawning archers and/or wave after wave of melee trash that appears out of thin air and tries to gnaw on your favorite bodily appendage. Displacing away from those respawning mobs gives you the breathing room that you need as a soloist to focus down on the big guys and knock them out. Squads of archers are your worst enemy in this setting, and should be terminated pronto before you are forced to gulp down a dozen healing pots.
The end boss for me was somewhat anticlimactic. Keep in mind that I have never done any of these dungeons before, so I have no idea what to expect when I dive into these places. I will say that Idris was about ten times harder for me, and the only time I was ever in any real danger in that last fight in the Den was when the Boss spawned a squad of archers a couple of times, and that was the only time I had to chug potions to keep going. Otherwise, Duelist's Furry burned her down pretty quick, and I think it may have taken longer to clean up her melee adds after she was dead so that I could finally loot the Delve Event chest.
I leveled to 42 midway through the dungeon, and I am still using my regen gear... some of it is pretty low level for me now LOL I think one of my rings might be level 28. I've been having fairly bad luck finding more regen stuff as I'm going, but at least my daggers are up to date. That probably matters more than anything else. I used about 15 healing pots while soloing The Den, and these were used when I got archer-spawned and pretty much nowhere else. Getting caught out of stealth with a surprise wave of archers is no picnic. hahaha
PS Thanks for the kind words earlier, todesfaelle! I hope you don't mind me posting my little snippets here in your thread. I'm trying to keep it as short as I can so as to not derail the general discussion about the build, but I know my last couple of posts were pretty long LOL Sorry, man!
Man that's epic. You're tearing through the solo dungeon challenge. I'm really glad to hear this build is functioning well for you, and that it's bringing you desirable results. Please keep it up! I can't wait to hear how you use it at higher levels! I agree that the Gray Wolf Den's last boss is quite anti-climactic as Idris was significantly harder than Marrowslake. There are little to no mobs in the Gray Wolf Den who are able to detect us while in Stealth. But I do remember this one variant of Lycanthrope that is able to see us. Nonetheless I'm pretty sure you'll have an easy time with the other dungeons until you reach The Temple of the Spider. The Driders can be really troublesome. But only them. The rest are fair game.
And I personally do not mind seeing posts like these, l0th4ri0! Really. Rather, I enjoy reading the experiences and discoveries of the TR's who use this build. Longer the posts, the better I say. I'll eventually be posting links on the front page for the really useful posts such as trent82's discoveries about recovery, your strategies for the solo dungeon challenge, and the variants people use for this build so people can see the many varieties and strategies possible for us TR's. This build isn't really just mine anymore and in my opinion everyone should get a shot at contributing to its development.
Thank you for posting and contributing, everyone! Please look forward to the next couple of updates as I'll be adding some stuff that would make browsing the guide easier like a table of contents with anchored links for faster navigation and of course, the input from our TR community.
Can someone explain CHA vs STR for this type of build? Wouldn't STR be better since it increases ALL your damage and not just Combat Advantage damage? I don't see the point of CHA when STR seems to boost overall damage by the same amount as combat advantage only it is always in effect...
Hmmm. I thought for sure that I made certain that STR should be prioritized over CHA on the stats section. Can tell me which part of the guide still mentions that CHA is better than STR? I seem to have forgotten to edit that part.
Hi kgrizzle! Yes, the general consensus now about STR vs CHA is that STR is indeed better (I think). That's what I went with, anyway. But there are several races that get a +2 to CHA (halfling, tiefling, etc.), and there are feats you can take to increase combat advantage damage, in which case a high CHA is desirable.
Which brings me to my next point that I've been mulling over for a while now doing the solo challenge...
I think I may have a variant on Banelorne's standard here that could perform slightly better as a soloist PVE who takes on the hardest PVE areas (5-man dungeons) by himself --- a Saboteur. I know, I know... but just hear me out for a second, okay?
Sabs have definite shortcomings vs. the Executioner path. Chiefly, the lack of bonus to crit severity, which before the balance patch was HUGE. Mindbogglingly huge. However, the crit severity from stacking Deadly Momentum has been "fixed", and it has changed the dynamic of how an executioner can get enormous constant crits from bleed. It still happens, of course... especially when combined with vorpal enchants, but in this one setting wherein a rogue is not protected from add aggro by other players like CWs or tanks with mark ability, all of a sudden the deadly momentum stack, while still feasible for a very short duration, is no longer reliably able to be maintained. Your bleeds fall off when you solo, because everything in the world is trying to kill you at once, and if you stay still for too long you're dead.
Okay, permastealth then, right? That's what we're here for. Trent showed us how you can weave in DFs and maintain stealth. But even he said that in a solo setting it might not be realistic to keep a critted bleed flowing... or at least that was what I took from his posts. Having to drop a BaS dummy brings aggro, red circles, and generally prevents you from just tying yourself to the boss and keeping the bleed going. ItC can keep you in the game longer, but that's five seconds only. Your bleed is gonna drop off at some point... it's just gonna. Then you're back to DF and hoping for a lucky crit on that tenth stack.
What happens when we forgo all that mess with the critting and caring so much about that bleed stack? For one thing, you get to keep your hair on your head. One would think that having to keep track of all these factors at once while also being surrounded by bloodthirsty monsters just waiting for a split second mistake to eat you would cause a bit of stress. LOL What happens when we give up the obsession with DEX and concentrate on STR+CHA for base damage? You'll lose some crit chance... it's true. Having a 17 DEX at level 60 for a rogue seems weird. Shouldn't that be 26? You're missing out on 9% crit chance, man! But look what you get instead: 21 STR and 21 CHA for a total of 22% base damage on every attack from stealth. Your severity is still 75% without vorpal... it's not like you won't be hitting like a sledgehammer when you crit even without deadly momentum and overrun -- your base damage is HUGE, and the Sabs get a +10% feat for added base damage to crits and non-crits alike. You'll still be using DF and getting nice bleeds, but they'll be on your terms, and not dictated by a lucky die roll because you hit very very hard whether you crit or not. Sanity is maintained, you aren't beholden to the crit for your damage, and you still have a very high chance to crit anyway -- 9% loss is not that much. Give yourself a vorpal and your severity is higher too... just like an executioner.
Your thoughts, guys? Remember this is just for soloing... I think we can all agree that a Sab in a standard dungeon team is not the very best choice when compared to an executioner.
Hmmm. I thought for sure that I made certain that STR should be prioritized over CHA on the stats section. Can tell me which part of the guide still mentions that CHA is better than STR? I seem to have forgotten to edit that part.
In the first page you have 1. Dex, 2. Cha, 3. Str. Unless the numerical order wasn't meant to imply an order of importance..
That being said, I was going to roll a Half-Orc with 18 Str(+2), 18 Dex (+2), 12 Cha, and 10 Int, 10 Wis, 10 Con. Is this a popular Ability Roll + race combo? I'm sure it would do good in both PvP and PvE, wondering if anyone here is playing the exact same thing right now at lvl 60 that can provide some input on this
@l0th4ri0: Hehe, amusing post. I personally know this idea will succeed in solo situations! I for one can't debate how awesome a Saboteur build is when it comes to solo play. Before I went for Executioner, I was actually a Sab Rogue. I just love how Sab is able to bring out the best in Stealth, and most of all I love the 5% reflection from BaS and the added 10% HP. Meaning it can give more AP per use in PVE situations. But sadly my DPS wasn't so competitive. I was using DEX + CHA back then to milk the most out of my Combat Advantage damage. But now that you mentioned it, it does seem like a good idea to forgo DEX to get CHA + STR for better flat damage. We lose a lot of crit though, since we'll be relying on Recovery stats. But that's fine since in the flat damage becomes more competitive. I say you should try it out, man. I'm really curious to see how this variant will perform in comparison to an Executioner, and if it can create a new role for Stealth TR's who use this variant. I think a Sab TR will have more survivability in group plays. Such as when an entire party goes down on a boss fight and the Sab TR is the one last member remaining, it should have a better chance of surviving that match and eventually winning the boss fight for the team because of +11% Stamina Regeneration from 21 STR, coupled with feats such as Swift Footwork for another 10% (for a total of 21%), Twilight Adept for Stealth refills from dodging, and Nimble Dodge, we'll be able to create a Rogue that can dodge nearly 3 times per each Stamina bar refill. I'm thinking the third dodge will require a little wait time though.
Basically, a Stealth TR with the same skill set, with these feats should work in both solo and group plays. What do you think of this setup, l0th4ri0?
This feat setup, in theory, concentrates on milking the most out of flat damage boosts. I haven't really tried it out to see how it would perform since I went full Sab and only Sab back when I was using the Sab tree. But with Underhanded Tactics' +20% CA damage and Nimble Blade, I'm imagining the flat DPS of this build when using At-Wills should be pretty competitive. For the weapon enchantment, maybe Greater Plagefire would be much better than Greater Vorpal since this build doesn't crit as often as an Executioner Stealth TR normally could. But we can never be really sure. GPF on the one hand is able to debuff the opponent's damage mitigation by 15% a pop which stacks 3 times. That's pretty huge for a flat-damage Stealth TR.
Tell me what you think, man!
@kgrizzle22: Hi! I actually did not mean it to imply an order of importance, but since you already raised it I might as well edit it in a way that would not create such misconceptions in the future. Thank you for raising this issue! It will definitely help avoid misunderstandings in the future.
Oh no no no you're right -- Plague Fire is much better for that than vorpal... LOL I don't know what I was thinking! Your feat setup is exactly what I had figured on as well. I have already created a Tiefling alt for the experiment, and my plan is to get to level 16 for the two ranks in Bait and Switch and then run straight to the Cloak Tower without any armor. Just a pink Tiefling chick in her sports bra against 100 murderous Orc and Ogre thugs with unfair amounts of HPs and damage. LOL sounds like it's right up my alley!
But seriously, my alt won't be in any real position to give meaningful feedback concerning the damage, etc., until she gets to a much higher level. The math says it should work like gangbusters, but we'll see how it pans out in practice. I think having such an emphasis on base damage rather than crit% should make Gloaming even more effective. Having two base damage stats stacking with each other is going to make a difference compared to just one.
Plus, the bucketfuls of Stamina regen is not going to hurt one bit. I can't tell you how many times I've been hounded by dungeon mobs and wished for just a tiny bit more stamina to dodge with. If you think about it, having dodge up a little faster is better than having a buff to HP... isn't it better to not take any damage vs. having an extra 9% health? That's like one hit from a standard elite dungeon mob.. shoulda just not gotten tagged by the beast to begin with.
1) It stops being worth it to stack Recovery once you hit the soft cap (the point where you start getting significant diminishing returns) around 2900 or so. Since I've already hit the soft cap for Critical too, my goal for the time being is to focus on hitting the Armor Penetration cap while still keeping both Recovery and Critical above their soft cap thresholds.
2) Dazzling Blades is working again. What a HUGE difference that makes for this build. It is much, much easier to keep up permastealth rotations now than it was before.
3) The amount of your AP bar you get for your Bait and Switch dummy being smacked around seems to be related to the amount of damage dealt to it (even if said damage is overkill). A good way to get Lurker's Assault recharged is to pop Bait and Switch when you know an enemy is about to unleash a high-damage AoE (and if you're unleashing a stealthed Duelist's Flurry on somebody around the same time, all the better).
4) A surprising use for this build I found while in groups is to "stealth tank" certain enemies. During the last encounter in the Aberrant Assault skirmish, I was pretty much able to "stealth tank" the bodyguard by myself while the rest of the party burned down the adds. Popping out momentarily from a stealthed Lashing Blade and my Bait and Switch dummies would keep him or less fixated on me (or my general location) but I was in stealth pretty much 95% of the time so there wasn't a whole lot he could do about it. LOL
3) The amount of your AP bar you get for your Bait and Switch dummy being smacked around seems to be related to the amount of damage dealt to it (even if said damage is overkill). A good way to get Lurker's Assault recharged is to pop Bait and Switch when you know an enemy is about to unleash a high-damage AoE (and if you're unleashing a stealthed Duelist's Flurry on somebody around the same time, all the better).
I've seen this too... overkill on your dummy is a good thing. Bosses who do massive AoE damage are basically giving you free lurkers if you drop it inside the red circle. This was how I took down the pit fiend bosses in the Lair of the Mad Dragon.
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dbb2003Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited June 2013
Hi i have a question for trent82 ...
I know i ask that question before and i became a good answer from todesfaelle, but i saw, it is no problem with only 1300 recovery to put a duelist flury in the rotation ( ok with 1300 it is not soo easy with flury ). Now my first question ... which 2 from this 3 parts i should take ? Brutal backstab, critical teamwork or deadly monument ? Todesfaelle said brutal backstab and critical teamwork but i see it is not a real problem to put a duelist flury in the rotaion. So what du you take because you have also duelist flury in your rotation.
And my second questions ... i get the 1300 recovery without enchantments and it is enough to stay easy all the time in steal. So do you think i shoud stack silver enchantments to come to 2300+ recovery or better in power or critical strike ? I mean we have with the battlefield set very very low power ... But i also not sure is it better to stack power or crit.
I know i ask that question before and i became a good answer from todesfaelle, but i saw, it is no problem with only 1300 recovery to put a duelist flury in the rotation ( ok with 1300 it is not soo easy with flury ). Now my first question ... which 2 from this 3 parts i should take ? Brutal backstab, critical teamwork or deadly monument ? Todesfaelle said brutal backstab and critical teamwork but i see it is not a real problem to put a duelist flury in the rotaion. So what du you take because you have also duelist flury in your rotation.
And my second questions ... i get the 1300 recovery without enchantments and it is enough to stay easy all the time in steal. So do you think i shoud stack silver enchantments to come to 2300+ recovery or better in power or critical strike ? I mean we have with the battlefield set very very low power ... But i also not sure is it better to stack power or crit.
Hi dbb2003,
I took Brutal Backstab and Deadly Momentum myself, in part because if you are in a group with another trickster rogue and he or she has taken Critical Teamwork you gain no additional benefit from taking the feat yourself.
Personally, I would aim for the "soft cap" (the point of diminishing returns) in this order: 1) Recovery (around 2900), 2) Critical (around 2500), and 3) Armor Penetration (around 2300). Only when all of these have been met would I focus on stacking Power.
I took Brutal Backstab and Deadly Momentum myself, in part because if you are in a group with another trickster rogue and he or she has taken Critical Teamwork you gain no additional benefit from taking the feat yourself.
Personally, I would aim for the "soft cap" (the point of diminishing returns) in this order: 1) Recovery (around 2900), 2) Critical (around 2500), and 3) Armor Penetration (around 2300). Only when all of these have been met would I focus on stacking Power.
Hope this helps!
Are there dimishing returns and/or soft caps when it comes to Crit Hit % chance in this game? I couldn't get a non-troll answer in the /zone chat earlier...
Are there dimishing returns and/or soft caps when it comes to Crit Hit % chance in this game? I couldn't get a non-troll answer in the /zone chat earlier...
I don't know about actual Crit percentages, I have heard a lot of people say to stop getting Crit once you get around 50% but do not know the reasoning for this so I can't really comment. However, there is a point of diminishing returns for Crit rating score which begins around 2000 if I recall correctly and gets really bad around 2500.
Its because of the diminishing returns on Critical and Recovery scores that I will probably stack Dex and Int on my next respec. While the extra damage from Str and Cha is nice, Power always scales linearly and never has diminishing returns.
@todesfaelle atm i have no guild and so no pvp t2 items + i hate pvp so much
sinister set 4/4 is okay when nobody kick the target away and max 3sec. out of stealth didn't kill you. last thing would happen sometimes. in bad random groups i have the problems to do my rotation and here are the 20% more stealth > 4/4 sinister set bonus.
i'm arround 3,4k crit (~39-40%), 3,2k power, 479 ap, 845 recovery without my companion, with sinister i think its better to use silvery enchants in all offense slots (using atm rank 5).
the crit would be stand around 34-35%, but the recovery goes up to 1,8k and hits with the set bonus 2,8k.
i don't know i should change to pvp t2 when i have the chance for 25% stealth and 5% +dmg or first i go to ice dagger (prefer over dagger set)+ the weapon slots and change the ring/neck/waist + epic shirt/pant. i have so much to do :eek:
Thank you so much for this build todesfaelle, I was an Executioner before I specced to this build and I was bored of it pretty fast. This is such a fun build and I am enjoying pve so much more now.
Stabs boss to death and he didn't know what hit him.
Oh no no no you're right -- Plague Fire is much better for that than vorpal... LOL I don't know what I was thinking! Your feat setup is exactly what I had figured on as well. I have already created a Tiefling alt for the experiment, and my plan is to get to level 16 for the two ranks in Bait and Switch and then run straight to the Cloak Tower without any armor. Just a pink Tiefling chick in her sports bra against 100 murderous Orc and Ogre thugs with unfair amounts of HPs and damage. LOL sounds like it's right up my alley!
But seriously, my alt won't be in any real position to give meaningful feedback concerning the damage, etc., until she gets to a much higher level. The math says it should work like gangbusters, but we'll see how it pans out in practice. I think having such an emphasis on base damage rather than crit% should make Gloaming even more effective. Having two base damage stats stacking with each other is going to make a difference compared to just one.
Plus, the bucketfuls of Stamina regen is not going to hurt one bit. I can't tell you how many times I've been hounded by dungeon mobs and wished for just a tiny bit more stamina to dodge with. If you think about it, having dodge up a little faster is better than having a buff to HP... isn't it better to not take any damage vs. having an extra 9% health? That's like one hit from a standard elite dungeon mob.. shoulda just not gotten tagged by the beast to begin with.
Hey, man. How's the new char going lately? I think I'll be making a new TR exactly like the one you wish to test. I'll be going for Human with STR + CHA and I'm starting today. Either that, or a Tiefling as well and I'll be going for STR + CON in hopes of turning it into a Cheese Teneb TR someday. This guy should hit like a truck even with regular non-lesser tenebs. And I think you're right, concentrating on raw power + armor pen would seem to be beneficial for our main sources of damage. Can't wait to see this variant at level 30. I also think that Greater Lightning Enchantment would be good for this build in PVE. A little something to soften up the others around you. The threat generation it has will not affect us as well which is a good pro.
You should make a char on Mindflayer some time, man. And maybe we can catch each other.
1) It stops being worth it to stack Recovery once you hit the soft cap (the point where you start getting significant diminishing returns) around 2900 or so. Since I've already hit the soft cap for Critical too, my goal for the time being is to focus on hitting the Armor Penetration cap while still keeping both Recovery and Critical above their soft cap thresholds.
2) Dazzling Blades is working again. What a HUGE difference that makes for this build. It is much, much easier to keep up permastealth rotations now than it was before.
3) The amount of your AP bar you get for your Bait and Switch dummy being smacked around seems to be related to the amount of damage dealt to it (even if said damage is overkill). A good way to get Lurker's Assault recharged is to pop Bait and Switch when you know an enemy is about to unleash a high-damage AoE (and if you're unleashing a stealthed Duelist's Flurry on somebody around the same time, all the better).
4) A surprising use for this build I found while in groups is to "stealth tank" certain enemies. During the last encounter in the Aberrant Assault skirmish, I was pretty much able to "stealth tank" the bodyguard by myself while the rest of the party burned down the adds. Popping out momentarily from a stealthed Lashing Blade and my Bait and Switch dummies would keep him or less fixated on me (or my general location) but I was in stealth pretty much 95% of the time so there wasn't a whole lot he could do about it. LOL
Your findings are incredibly helpful as always, man. Great service to the TR community. I wish I could play with you guys sometime. If only there weren't any server constraints. And I gotta say that I also noticed the difference once Dazzling Blades got fixed. Now if only they could improve it just a little bit, even if it's only a 10% proc from the 5% we currently have right now. Bleed ticks got significantly slower and all we've been getting are nerfs. Would be great if we got something that actually gave us something. And it's true, the AP we get from the hard-hitting bosses are insane. They almost always fill up our AP bar in every single rotation. If they don't, we can always get an extra 20% from using Impossible to Catch in combat and Shadow Strike next. I managed to solo the last 10% of Epic Karrundax thanks to Bait and Switch, after my PUG party all died.
And true that. BaS acts like an aggro absorber of sorts. I like popping it nearby the CW's and Clerics who tend to attract a lot of aggro.
Comments
I just felt i had to share this.
Btw trent82 keep up the feedback you are saving me a lot of experiments. (82 december as well
( oh and a stupid question
i have the ad/g for sinister 2/4 set (bracers and boots). but i would give up the +20% stealth bonus for crit and some recovery stats, should i wait and farm for the expensive items or do you think it would be okay?
Nice.
Good input. I didn't know that Smoke Bomb, 3 GC's + a Dodge Roll would refill our stealth meter quickly. I think I'll try this out on the training dummies later so I can get it down right. It will definitely be useful on group play since we tend to slot Smoke Bomb for the benefit of the entire party. I personally like this one.
Hey, Zellista. I assure you that we need very minimal INT for this build. Mine is only 12 and I can keep up the permastealth rotation in PVE settings even if it's just Gloaming Cut + Shadow Strike, provided that I dodge twice before using Shadow Strike again. It has very little room for error, though. In order to increase that room for error, stacking up on Recovery would be a tremendous help. From the tests of one of our big contributors, Trent82, the DPS of this Stealth Build tends to go up the higher our Recovery stat is thanks to us being able to collect more AP for Lurker's Assault and being able to use 1 Duelist's Fury per Stealth Refill. This means we can keep up a decent stack of Bleeds, and we still get to keep the permastealth rotation.
I definitely would go for the T2 PVP set. 25% Stealth Meter + 5% damage while in stealth is so juicy, no stealth rogue can resist it. And yes it actually does scale with our dodge refills which makes this gear all the more desirable. I sure hope I can participate in another Gauntlgrym match again.
Hey, dbb2003! Thank you for taking the time to browse the guide. As for my input regarding which feat might be better, I believe you definitely should go for Brutal Backstab. However, if you truly wish to take Critical Teamwork, I suggest dropping Deadly Momentum. +15% added Critical Severity is nice, but we'll rarely get to use this as we tend to use Gloaming Cut much more than Duelist's Fury. In order to stay in Stealth for a prolonged period of time, to the point of permanence, Gloaming Cut helps us a lot. Duelist's Fury dishes out a lot of damage, but the Deadly Momentum feat has been severely gimped. The bonus you and your teammates get from Critical Teamwork far outweighs the perks you get from Deadly Momentum and the best part is that it's always active.
Hello, and thank you for taking the time to read the guide. I personally like your stat distribution. 17 INT gives a decent CD reduction. First and foremost I believe it is imperative that you have 4/4 Battlefield Scavenger on. The +450 stats you get from getting a 2/4 + 2/4 set grows pale in comparison to the survivability you get from having an additional +20% Stealth Meter. All your Stealth Refill feats scale depending on your current maximum Stealth Meter as well which makes them even more effective the more Stealth bonuses you get.
If you really wish for a better set of gear, please try farming for the T2 Gauntlgrym PVP set for us TR's once Gauntlgrym hits the game again. It's the BiS gear for us right now.
If by any chance there are further need for clarifications please do not hesitate to ask!
Haha, yeah I've been soloing the 5-man dungeons as well as doing all the normal content while leveling. The Wolf Den is next on my list. I'm not gonna lie... the 5-man dungeons are NOT easy.
For all the new folks out there: the mobs in these dungeons have like 4-5 times the health (or more) of ones you would meet outside in the same zone, and the dozens and dozens of elite mobs you face have equivalent HPs to a major boss for the normal "outside the dungeon" content. You will literally be spending a good 3-4 hours just trying to get to the dungeon boss, and when you do, unless you have a game plan figured out, count on dying and/or going through so many healing potions that it is ridiculous. Standard guides on the wiki will be of very little help to you when it comes to these ultra-bosses, because you do not have 5 people to fill roles. You are on your own, every mob is trying to kill you and you alone, and there is nowhere you can go that they won't try to come and get you.
In no other setting is this build tested like this. And I personally think it speaks to the basic class design and solid mechanics of the TR in general that the rogue is the only class that could possibly try to pull off a stunt like this and succeed. I tried soloing the Cloak Tower with a CW a long time ago when I was tying out the classes and it was literally impossible. I got to the first mini-boss of that dungeon and could not get any farther because he and his adds just burned me down faster than I could chug heal pots. I was quite overleveled (I think lvl 25) as well.
Then I tried the TR and found this build.
Cloak Tower fell to me at level 17. I barely used health pots at all. Cragmire Crypts was conquered at level 28. The Lair of the Mad Dragon I had to quit out of due to time constraints that day, but I beat past the second pit fiend boss and was on my way after that. Idris just fell last night. This build works.
With a boss like Idris, you have to have crackerjack timing and without that extra help from the feats and the slotted powers that todesfaelle has suggested, she could very well be close to impossible without chugging 99 health pots. If you know the magic formula with this class, you won't need any. After I discovered the solution to taking her down I used zero health pots, but I had to die twice to figure out what I needed to do.
The trick is to clear the shelf under her dais, clear the next level up, and then pull as little aggro as possible on one of the sides of her dais so that you can smack down the mobs without alerting her. Then after all that is prepared, barely get close enough to alert her and run down to the bottom tier of the battle ground and deal with the skeleton archers and zombies she summons. You will be dodging like a madman and dropping BaS dummies like its going out of style until you can pop a Lurkers and hunt them all down in stealth and destroy them. Now you should just be facing Idris herself and two zombie hulks. Take a deep breath, because now you're at the tricky part.
Do the above ambushing rotation about 30 times and Idris will be dead. If you leave her zombie hulks alone she will not summon any more adds, which is nice. If you kill one of the hulks, it will be replaced with a fresh one and a squad of skeleton archers as well, so just leave them alone until after she's gone.
Heh, I only have Rank 5 Silvery Enchantments myself. I've been playing around with different gear sets so much I haven't had the time to save up for anything better.
Right now, I have the full Battlefield Scavenger's set, two Thickgristle's Jagged Daggers (with Rank 5 Silvery on both), Insignia of the Sovereignty (Rank 5 Silvery), two Minor Grand Slavemaster's Ring of Control (Rank 5 Silvery on both), Occult Belt of Restoration (Rank 5 Silvery), and a Gemmed Embroidered Shirt (Rank 5 Silvery), which puts my gear score at 9376. I also have a rank 25 Ioun Stone of Allure with two Rank 5 Arcane Runestones, one Rank 5 Eldritch Runestone, another Minor Grand Slavemaster's Ring of Control (Rank 5 Silvery), another Insignia of the Sovereignty (Rank 5 Silvery), and a Greater Icon of Blue Fire (Rank 5 Silvery).
Altogether with 19 Str, 12 Con, 26 Dex, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 15 Cha that puts me at 2346 Power, 43.4% Crit, 11.7% Armor Penetration, and 22.1% Recovery. I usually have Skillful Infiltrator and Tactics slotted during PVE.
As an aside, I've done some more experimenting with the practice dummies and found my old rotation of Bait and Switch/Duelist's Flurry/Gloaming Cut/Lashing Blade/Shadow Strike/Duelist's Flurry/Gloaming Cut to be much more efficient with my Recovery where it is at now. A stealthed Lashing Blade nets you a HUGE amount of your AP bar once you get a good Recovery (I'd estimate around 10-15% of my bar fills up when I use it) and it also gives your Bait and Switch an extra second or two to recharge as you re-stealth after Shadow Strike. I actually managed to get over 6K DPS using that rotation and still maintaining stealth the entire time except for when I drop out using Lashing Blade.
Its obviously not an ideal rotation if you're soloing or if you anticipate a lo of unavoidable AoEs coming your way (Impossible to Catch is king in those situations), but doing dungeons with a group it will probably be my go-to setup for the time being.
@trent82: Now this contains all the info I need. I'll be searching for these items as soon as I get home. Good thing Rank 6 Silveries only cost around 10k on Mindflayer. R7 Silvers are on a whole new price range though. I'll burn out some Glory later for a new PVP set, and slot them with better enchants. I have rank 5's on mine so far.
Just thought I'd mention this but I also met a fellow Stealth TR a while back in a PVP match. We became friends and he's also using a Recovery spec for this build. It's awesome. I noticed he was able to pop Lurker's much more usual than I do. Either way, it's pretty fun to have another Stealth TR in a match and one that's on your side.
I learned some neat new tricks from this new friend of mine, particularly a good counter for Stealth TR's in PVP; Bilethorn Enchants. It severely messed up my rotations when I faced up against him and I had to run to the other side. Totally caught by surprise. Props to Tiduss of Mindflayer! Was fun being able to run PVP matches with your guildies.
It was a pretty fun time in pvp today. It gets pretty hilarious harassing 4 of them on their node trying to cap it back. Keep up with the good work with this guide - it's a good inspiration to many rogues, and a lot of nightmare for the opposition~
- Tiduss -
(OoS)
First off, I think I'm done with Sly Flourish. When you have 3 ranks in Gloaming Cut and 5/5 Sneaky Stabber as suggested in this guide, there is no reason to go back. My other at-will is Duelist's Flurry, and it got a workout in the wolf den tonight.
As per the standard 5-man dungeon layout, there are 2 mini-bosses and the end stage boss in the Gray Wolf Den. As usual, between these considerably dangerous opponents are tons and tons of elite mobs and trash mobs with bucketfuls of health. Of particular note for this area are the 40-50 Werewolf Scavengers you will face that like to leap around and dodge out of DF range. One trick I found to deal with these troublesome foes is to clear out everybody else and then draw them into tight alcoves or corners where their leaping back puts them against a wall and does not let them escape your daggers. The other elite mobs have powerful attacks and KD, but these can be avoided easily if you are paying attention.
When it comes to soloing the mini-bosses here, the name of the game is "Ambush and Displace". What this means is that you strike hard from stealth and then pull away, moving the battle to a place of your choosing. If you stay within the confines of the two mini-boss areas, you will have to deal with respawning archers and/or wave after wave of melee trash that appears out of thin air and tries to gnaw on your favorite bodily appendage. Displacing away from those respawning mobs gives you the breathing room that you need as a soloist to focus down on the big guys and knock them out. Squads of archers are your worst enemy in this setting, and should be terminated pronto before you are forced to gulp down a dozen healing pots.
The end boss for me was somewhat anticlimactic. Keep in mind that I have never done any of these dungeons before, so I have no idea what to expect when I dive into these places. I will say that Idris was about ten times harder for me, and the only time I was ever in any real danger in that last fight in the Den was when the Boss spawned a squad of archers a couple of times, and that was the only time I had to chug potions to keep going. Otherwise, Duelist's Furry burned her down pretty quick, and I think it may have taken longer to clean up her melee adds after she was dead so that I could finally loot the Delve Event chest.
I leveled to 42 midway through the dungeon, and I am still using my regen gear... some of it is pretty low level for me now LOL I think one of my rings might be level 28. I've been having fairly bad luck finding more regen stuff as I'm going, but at least my daggers are up to date. That probably matters more than anything else. I used about 15 healing pots while soloing The Den, and these were used when I got archer-spawned and pretty much nowhere else. Getting caught out of stealth with a surprise wave of archers is no picnic. hahaha
PS Thanks for the kind words earlier, todesfaelle! I hope you don't mind me posting my little snippets here in your thread. I'm trying to keep it as short as I can so as to not derail the general discussion about the build, but I know my last couple of posts were pretty long LOL Sorry, man!
Hey, man. Thanks for the kind words and I'm glad to see you dropping by the thread! The matches were fun indeed.
It's my pleasure and it makes me happy to hear that you are having a blast with it! Thank you for trying this build, puckfanla.
Man that's epic. You're tearing through the solo dungeon challenge.
And I personally do not mind seeing posts like these, l0th4ri0! Really. Rather, I enjoy reading the experiences and discoveries of the TR's who use this build. Longer the posts, the better I say.
Thank you for posting and contributing, everyone! Please look forward to the next couple of updates as I'll be adding some stuff that would make browsing the guide easier like a table of contents with anchored links for faster navigation and of course, the input from our TR community.
Which brings me to my next point that I've been mulling over for a while now doing the solo challenge...
I think I may have a variant on Banelorne's standard here that could perform slightly better as a soloist PVE who takes on the hardest PVE areas (5-man dungeons) by himself --- a Saboteur. I know, I know... but just hear me out for a second, okay?
Sabs have definite shortcomings vs. the Executioner path. Chiefly, the lack of bonus to crit severity, which before the balance patch was HUGE. Mindbogglingly huge. However, the crit severity from stacking Deadly Momentum has been "fixed", and it has changed the dynamic of how an executioner can get enormous constant crits from bleed. It still happens, of course... especially when combined with vorpal enchants, but in this one setting wherein a rogue is not protected from add aggro by other players like CWs or tanks with mark ability, all of a sudden the deadly momentum stack, while still feasible for a very short duration, is no longer reliably able to be maintained. Your bleeds fall off when you solo, because everything in the world is trying to kill you at once, and if you stay still for too long you're dead.
Okay, permastealth then, right? That's what we're here for. Trent showed us how you can weave in DFs and maintain stealth. But even he said that in a solo setting it might not be realistic to keep a critted bleed flowing... or at least that was what I took from his posts. Having to drop a BaS dummy brings aggro, red circles, and generally prevents you from just tying yourself to the boss and keeping the bleed going. ItC can keep you in the game longer, but that's five seconds only. Your bleed is gonna drop off at some point... it's just gonna. Then you're back to DF and hoping for a lucky crit on that tenth stack.
What happens when we forgo all that mess with the critting and caring so much about that bleed stack? For one thing, you get to keep your hair on your head. One would think that having to keep track of all these factors at once while also being surrounded by bloodthirsty monsters just waiting for a split second mistake to eat you would cause a bit of stress. LOL What happens when we give up the obsession with DEX and concentrate on STR+CHA for base damage? You'll lose some crit chance... it's true. Having a 17 DEX at level 60 for a rogue seems weird. Shouldn't that be 26? You're missing out on 9% crit chance, man! But look what you get instead: 21 STR and 21 CHA for a total of 22% base damage on every attack from stealth. Your severity is still 75% without vorpal... it's not like you won't be hitting like a sledgehammer when you crit even without deadly momentum and overrun -- your base damage is HUGE, and the Sabs get a +10% feat for added base damage to crits and non-crits alike. You'll still be using DF and getting nice bleeds, but they'll be on your terms, and not dictated by a lucky die roll because you hit very very hard whether you crit or not. Sanity is maintained, you aren't beholden to the crit for your damage, and you still have a very high chance to crit anyway -- 9% loss is not that much. Give yourself a vorpal and your severity is higher too... just like an executioner.
Your thoughts, guys? Remember this is just for soloing... I think we can all agree that a Sab in a standard dungeon team is not the very best choice when compared to an executioner.
In the first page you have 1. Dex, 2. Cha, 3. Str. Unless the numerical order wasn't meant to imply an order of importance..
That being said, I was going to roll a Half-Orc with 18 Str(+2), 18 Dex (+2), 12 Cha, and 10 Int, 10 Wis, 10 Con. Is this a popular Ability Roll + race combo? I'm sure it would do good in both PvP and PvE, wondering if anyone here is playing the exact same thing right now at lvl 60 that can provide some input on this
Basically, a Stealth TR with the same skill set, with these feats should work in both solo and group plays. What do you think of this setup, l0th4ri0?
Heroic Feats:
- Action Advantage: 5/5
- Swift Footwork: 5/5
- Twilight Adept: 5/5
- Improved Cunning Sneak: 5/5
- (If Human) Scoundrel Training: 3/3
Paragon Feats:
- Saboteur:
-- Cunning Stalker: 5/5
-- Nimble Dodge: 5/5
-- Sneaky Stabber: 5/5
-- Sneak of Shadows: 5/5
-- Ruthless Efficiency: 1/1
- Scoundrel:
-- Underhanded Tactics: 5/5
-- Nimble Blade: 5/5
This feat setup, in theory, concentrates on milking the most out of flat damage boosts. I haven't really tried it out to see how it would perform since I went full Sab and only Sab back when I was using the Sab tree. But with Underhanded Tactics' +20% CA damage and Nimble Blade, I'm imagining the flat DPS of this build when using At-Wills should be pretty competitive. For the weapon enchantment, maybe Greater Plagefire would be much better than Greater Vorpal since this build doesn't crit as often as an Executioner Stealth TR normally could. But we can never be really sure. GPF on the one hand is able to debuff the opponent's damage mitigation by 15% a pop which stacks 3 times. That's pretty huge for a flat-damage Stealth TR.
Tell me what you think, man!
@kgrizzle22: Hi! I actually did not mean it to imply an order of importance, but since you already raised it I might as well edit it in a way that would not create such misconceptions in the future. Thank you for raising this issue! It will definitely help avoid misunderstandings in the future.
But seriously, my alt won't be in any real position to give meaningful feedback concerning the damage, etc., until she gets to a much higher level. The math says it should work like gangbusters, but we'll see how it pans out in practice. I think having such an emphasis on base damage rather than crit% should make Gloaming even more effective. Having two base damage stats stacking with each other is going to make a difference compared to just one.
Plus, the bucketfuls of Stamina regen is not going to hurt one bit. I can't tell you how many times I've been hounded by dungeon mobs and wished for just a tiny bit more stamina to dodge with. If you think about it, having dodge up a little faster is better than having a buff to HP... isn't it better to not take any damage vs. having an extra 9% health? That's like one hit from a standard elite dungeon mob.. shoulda just not gotten tagged by the beast to begin with.
1) It stops being worth it to stack Recovery once you hit the soft cap (the point where you start getting significant diminishing returns) around 2900 or so. Since I've already hit the soft cap for Critical too, my goal for the time being is to focus on hitting the Armor Penetration cap while still keeping both Recovery and Critical above their soft cap thresholds.
2) Dazzling Blades is working again. What a HUGE difference that makes for this build. It is much, much easier to keep up permastealth rotations now than it was before.
3) The amount of your AP bar you get for your Bait and Switch dummy being smacked around seems to be related to the amount of damage dealt to it (even if said damage is overkill). A good way to get Lurker's Assault recharged is to pop Bait and Switch when you know an enemy is about to unleash a high-damage AoE (and if you're unleashing a stealthed Duelist's Flurry on somebody around the same time, all the better).
4) A surprising use for this build I found while in groups is to "stealth tank" certain enemies. During the last encounter in the Aberrant Assault skirmish, I was pretty much able to "stealth tank" the bodyguard by myself while the rest of the party burned down the adds. Popping out momentarily from a stealthed Lashing Blade and my Bait and Switch dummies would keep him or less fixated on me (or my general location) but I was in stealth pretty much 95% of the time so there wasn't a whole lot he could do about it. LOL
I've seen this too... overkill on your dummy is a good thing. Bosses who do massive AoE damage are basically giving you free lurkers if you drop it inside the red circle. This was how I took down the pit fiend bosses in the Lair of the Mad Dragon.
I know i ask that question before and i became a good answer from todesfaelle, but i saw, it is no problem with only 1300 recovery to put a duelist flury in the rotation ( ok with 1300 it is not soo easy with flury
And my second questions ... i get the 1300 recovery without enchantments and it is enough to stay easy all the time in steal. So do you think i shoud stack silver enchantments to come to 2300+ recovery or better in power or critical strike ? I mean we have with the battlefield set very very low power ... But i also not sure is it better to stack power or crit.
Hi dbb2003,
I took Brutal Backstab and Deadly Momentum myself, in part because if you are in a group with another trickster rogue and he or she has taken Critical Teamwork you gain no additional benefit from taking the feat yourself.
Personally, I would aim for the "soft cap" (the point of diminishing returns) in this order: 1) Recovery (around 2900), 2) Critical (around 2500), and 3) Armor Penetration (around 2300). Only when all of these have been met would I focus on stacking Power.
Hope this helps!
Are there dimishing returns and/or soft caps when it comes to Crit Hit % chance in this game? I couldn't get a non-troll answer in the /zone chat earlier...
I don't know about actual Crit percentages, I have heard a lot of people say to stop getting Crit once you get around 50% but do not know the reasoning for this so I can't really comment. However, there is a point of diminishing returns for Crit rating score which begins around 2000 if I recall correctly and gets really bad around 2500.
Its because of the diminishing returns on Critical and Recovery scores that I will probably stack Dex and Int on my next respec. While the extra damage from Str and Cha is nice, Power always scales linearly and never has diminishing returns.
sinister set 4/4 is okay when nobody kick the target away and max 3sec. out of stealth didn't kill you. last thing would happen sometimes. in bad random groups i have the problems to do my rotation and here are the 20% more stealth > 4/4 sinister set bonus.
i'm arround 3,4k crit (~39-40%), 3,2k power, 479 ap, 845 recovery without my companion, with sinister i think its better to use silvery enchants in all offense slots (using atm rank 5).
the crit would be stand around 34-35%, but the recovery goes up to 1,8k and hits with the set bonus 2,8k.
i don't know i should change to pvp t2 when i have the chance for 25% stealth and 5% +dmg or first i go to ice dagger (prefer over dagger set)+ the weapon slots and change the ring/neck/waist + epic shirt/pant. i have so much to do :eek:
Stabs boss to death and he didn't know what hit him.
This guy.
LOL that's awesome, dude.
Hey, man. How's the new char going lately? I think I'll be making a new TR exactly like the one you wish to test. I'll be going for Human with STR + CHA and I'm starting today.
You should make a char on Mindflayer some time, man. And maybe we can catch each other.
Your findings are incredibly helpful as always, man. Great service to the TR community. I wish I could play with you guys sometime.
And true that. BaS acts like an aggro absorber of sorts.