I don't know where you got this notion, but it seems wildly inaccurate. Do you have any data to support it?
The post had a mix up between the Class Feature Storm Fury and Storm Spell. The previous message in the forum topic was asking a question about Storm Fury and I just put the wrong one in.
TO CLARIFY: I am a firm believer in Storm Spell, it is amazing and does great damage as I originally had it listed in the guide as doing so, it was a mis type on my account.
I would like to say a thing in defence of Maelstrom of Chaos. This is in fact the most powerful ability in the game yet (no, I don't mean the strongest or better, see the difference in a moment). Why ? Because it is the only spell in game that allows to stagger an opponent that has Boss Immunity, which means you have the possibility to interrupt an massive dmg burst from bosses on all dungeons, which can save the whole party sometimes.
The second important aspect is that during cast you are immune to CC effects and take greatly reduced dmg (75~90%), which can make this spell a save-me button on PvP.
The second spell I would like to defend is the Shard. I agree with you, as a normal Encounter power it is really crappy since we need to position ourselves behind it to push it. But as the Tab ability it gains a new life, because we can cast it from afar and push everywhere we like it and it has a great range. Moreover it has a slightly changed dmg then : every time it rolls over an enemy it does X damage and knock it down (affects multiple targets) but when it explodes it does 2*X damage in an even bigger radius.
Another quick question, Deagan. I'm having a hard time justifying the tenebrous enchants now that they have a short internal cooldown. From what I have seen, 6 greater tenebrous enchants seem to account for about 4% of total damage. That is significantly less damage than I would get from 6 armor penetration enchants (1320 armor penetration, equating to a ~11% reduction in damage mitigation), even after you start running up against diminishing returns. Additionally, given that plague fire enchant is a percentage reduction of defense, and considering the diminishing returns curve on defense values of mobs (i.e. the first bit of defense is the "strongest" bit of defense, point for point) it synergizes really well with armor pen. Have you tried some nice Armor Pen enchants in place of those tenebrous?
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violated87Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Curious about Tenebrous Enchantments. Do you have any parses with ACT to show how much damage they are adding? I've seen people claim they did some incredible amount of damage in pvp (like 20-30%), but in dungeons I've never seen anyone getting more than 3-4% extra damage from them. I'm planning on going ArP with my enchantments, but if you had some data to show me differently I'd be interested.
Curious about Tenebrous Enchantments. Do you have any parses with ACT to show how much damage they are adding? I've seen people claim they did some incredible amount of damage in pvp (like 20-30%), but in dungeons I've never seen anyone getting more than 3-4% extra damage from them. I'm planning on going ArP with my enchantments, but if you had some data to show me differently I'd be interested.
Arp is so good? Even in PVE?
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violated87Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Unless ArP doesn't work with CWs for some reason (and I've seen nothing to suggest that), ArP is incredibly strong. The Fighter and Rogue forums did a lot of research to show it's in a lot of ways the best stat in the game. To summarize the best I can ArP can't reduce an enemy below 0% defenses by itself (i.e. if an enemy has 20% mitigation from defense, then ArP is capped at reducing defense by 20%), but it applies even if you have other sources of penetration (like plague fires, roe, etc) and it applies last. In other words, if you have a bunch of mitigation debuffs which reduces the defenses of the target from 20% to 0% without including your ArP, then your ArP will still apply reducing it to a negative value (capped at negative the starting mitigation value, -20% in this case).
I'm not 100% sure that's how it's working, but I do know people are seeing negative mitigation resulting in bonus damage by stacking ArP and mitigation debuffs. I'm starting to stack ArP now so I'll confirm it for myself soon.
I've seen people claim they did some incredible amount of damage in pvp (like 20-30%), but in dungeons I've never seen anyone getting more than 3-4% extra damage from them.
I would love to see some solid data on the dungeon damage of Tenebrous Enchantments aswell.
Like someone running the same dungeon 3 times, with lesser/normal/greater enchants and post the result % dmg.
I planned to do it with lessers, but i cant get this stupid advanced combat tracker to work on my pc.
So if anyone has to much AD/Zen/3 different gearsets, it would be cool if he could do some serious testing on those enchantments
Curious about Tenebrous Enchantments. Do you have any parses with ACT to show how much damage they are adding? I've seen people claim they did some incredible amount of damage in pvp (like 20-30%), but in dungeons I've never seen anyone getting more than 3-4% extra damage from them. I'm planning on going ArP with my enchantments, but if you had some data to show me differently I'd be interested.
That doesn't make any sense. Why would Tenebrous enchantments provide less output in about an hour of constant trash pulls and AoEs, than on single target bursts of PvP?
That doesn't make any sense. Why would Tenebrous enchantments provide less output in about an hour of constant trash pulls and AoEs, than on single target bursts of PvP?
Because they all proc at once, if their cooldown is off. fights in pvp happen a few seconds apart, so you frontload a ton of damage on a single enemy, then by the time you fight the next, your ICDs are off. In PvE its a more steady stream, so you're having combat time with the ICD's still ticking.
Anyways, I replaced my tenebrous with rank 7 darks, and my dps went up an astounding amount. They are cheaper too. Skip the tenebrous in my opinion.
Because they all proc at once, if their cooldown is off. fights in pvp happen a few seconds apart, so you frontload a ton of damage on a single enemy, then by the time you fight the next, your ICDs are off. In PvE its a more steady stream, so you're having combat time with the ICD's still ticking.
Anyways, I replaced my tenebrous with rank 7 darks, and my dps went up an astounding amount. They are cheaper too. Skip the tenebrous in my opinion.
I didn't know they had an internal cooldown.
I actually replaced mine with Darks as well, and did notice my dps going up by a good amount.
Did you use lesser or greaters? I am using 6 greaters and i am doin way more damage. The internal cooldown is really nothing. 2-3 seconds.
Show some proof of this. I've only ever had 1 parse to look at with a GWF in my guild running 5 (normal) Tenebrous Enchantments. They accounted for just 3% of his total damage on the run. Greaters only add 50% to that so the total still would have been in the 4-5% range. Conversely, adding 5 ArP enchantments (lets say rank 7s) is worth 925 ArP, or around 8% penetration. That's worth about 8% extra damage if you are stacking Plague Fires and other mitigation debuffs.
Did you use lesser or greaters? I am using 6 greaters and i am doin way more damage. The internal cooldown is really nothing. 2-3 seconds.
I had lessers. I also replaced them with rank 5 darks. With better enchants, a blue belt, it is possible to get close to the 2000arp and still have some slots available for Tenebrous. But there is no doubt that the dps increase with arp is there.
Show some proof of this. I've only ever had 1 parse to look at with a GWF in my guild running 5 (normal) Tenebrous Enchantments. They accounted for just 3% of his total damage on the run. Greaters only add 50% to that so the total still would have been in the 4-5% range. Conversely, adding 5 ArP enchantments (lets say rank 7s) is worth 925 ArP, or around 8% penetration. That's worth about 8% extra damage if you are stacking Plague Fires and other mitigation debuffs.
Is there a way to parse your damage? I am not aware of any mods for this game.
I will do on the next delve if my usual delve team is online. One of our Control Wizards runs full shadow weaver and radiants. I run 2 magelord/2 shadow weaver.
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violated87Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Is there a way to parse your damage? I am not aware of any mods for this game.
I will do on the next delve if my usual delve team is online. One of our Control Wizards runs full shadow weaver and radiants. I run 2 magelord/2 shadow weaver.
You can use ACT to parse a combat log file. Just type '/combatlog 1' in the game chat to start the log. Replace the 1 with a 0 to stop it. Once you're done import the file into ACT, find your name in the participants list, and look at outgoing damage to see the breakdown.
Edit - to be clear, it's not a mod or a plugin for the game. It's just a log parser. It does have the capability to be directed to an active log file and parse real time, but it's not necessary and that's not really what we're after anyway. Just log the run, parse it with ACT, and then show us the breakdown results.
Conversely, adding 5 ArP enchantments (lets say rank 7s) is worth 925 ArP, or around 8% penetration. That's worth about 8% extra damage if you are stacking Plague Fires and other mitigation debuffs.
This is untrue. 8% reduction in mitigation is actually a significantly greater damage increase than 8%, for the same reason that an 8% increase in damage mitigation is a much greater reduction in damage taken than 8%. Consider the following.
lets say, for the purposes of this example, you have an attack that hits for 1000 base. A mob has 30% damage reduction, so you hit that mob for 700. Easy enough. Now suppose you add 10% armor penetration. his mitigation is now, for the purposes of your attack, 20%. Now that 1000 hit actually does 800 damage to him. You have, with the addition of 10% armor penetration, gone from doing 700 damage to 800. In point of fact, that is a 14.3% increase in damage ([800-700]/700) and not a 10% as the raw stat would have you believe. This is, as i mentioned, the same reason that, even with the diminishing returns curve, defense offers a linear increase in time to live, point for point.
TL:DR armor pen is godly, so long as you have the other stats to support it. It blows tenebrous out of the water both on paper and in practice. Do not take tenebrous enchants.
This is untrue. 8% reduction in mitigation is actually a significantly greater damage increase than 8%, for the same reason that an 8% increase in damage mitigation is a much greater reduction in damage taken than 8%. Consider the following.
lets say, for the purposes of this example, you have an attack that hits for 1000 base. A mob has 30% damage reduction, so you hit that mob for 700. Easy enough. Now suppose you add 10% armor penetration. his mitigation is now, for the purposes of your attack, 20%. Now that 1000 hit actually does 800 damage to him. You have, with the addition of 10% armor penetration, gone from doing 700 damage to 800. In point of fact, that is a 14.3% increase in damage ([800-700]/700) and not a 10% as the raw stat would have you believe. This is, as i mentioned, the same reason that, even with the diminishing returns curve, defense offers a linear increase in time to live, point for point.
TL:DR armor pen is godly, so long as you have the other stats to support it. It blows tenebrous out of the water both on paper and in practice. Do not take tenebrous enchants.
Interesting if true. So what happens if their mitigation is lower? What if it is already 0% or less? It seems then that ArPen would give a 1% penetration to 1% increased damage?
Also for PVP Tenebrous enchants still blow it out of the water.
Interesting if true. So what happens if their mitigation is lower? What if it is already 0% or less? It seems then that ArPen would give a 1% penetration to 1% increased damage?
Also for PVP Tenebrous enchants still blow it out of the water.
Mobs can go negative up to their default mitigation. i.e. if ia mob's natural damage resistance is 30%, it can go to -30%, but thats largely going to be impossible given the current gear in the game and the DR curve on armor pen. Not unreasonable to expect -5% or so though, if you've got decent armor penetration and plague fire. in that case, the damage you gain from arp is multiplicative.
Interesting if true. So what happens if their mitigation is lower? What if it is already 0% or less? It seems then that ArPen would give a 1% penetration to 1% increased damage?
Also for PVP Tenebrous enchants still blow it out of the water.
Very interesting arguing. I hope the feedbacks, thanks you.
Interesting if true. So what happens if their mitigation is lower? What if it is already 0% or less? It seems then that ArPen would give a 1% penetration to 1% increased damage?
Also for PVP Tenebrous enchants still blow it out of the water.
This is what i need to know. If for PVP Tenebrous is still better than arp enchantment. Not sure how to test this without a duel option
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violated87Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
This is untrue. 8% reduction in mitigation is actually a significantly greater damage increase than 8%, for the same reason that an 8% increase in damage mitigation is a much greater reduction in damage taken than 8%. Consider the following.
lets say, for the purposes of this example, you have an attack that hits for 1000 base. A mob has 30% damage reduction, so you hit that mob for 700. Easy enough. Now suppose you add 10% armor penetration. his mitigation is now, for the purposes of your attack, 20%. Now that 1000 hit actually does 800 damage to him. You have, with the addition of 10% armor penetration, gone from doing 700 damage to 800. In point of fact, that is a 14.3% increase in damage ([800-700]/700) and not a 10% as the raw stat would have you believe. This is, as i mentioned, the same reason that, even with the diminishing returns curve, defense offers a linear increase in time to live, point for point.
TL:DR armor pen is godly, so long as you have the other stats to support it. It blows tenebrous out of the water both on paper and in practice. Do not take tenebrous enchants.
This is important but for the opposite reason that you suggest. I mentioned stacking other mitigation debuffs such as Plague Fires, RoE, etc that regardless of my ArP are putting enemies at negative values of mitigation. This actually creates the opposite affect and reduces the value of armor pen for the same reasons you described. I.E. if the enemy is debuffed to -50% mitigation, my 1000 damage attack would hit for 1500. If I then add 20% armor pen myself that enemy now has an effective -70% mitigation which causes my attack to deal 1700 damage - only a 13.33% damage increase.
This is important but for the opposite reason that you suggest. I mentioned stacking other mitigation debuffs such as Plague Fires, RoE, etc that regardless of my ArP are putting enemies at negative values of mitigation. This actually creates the opposite affect and reduces the value of armor pen for the same reasons you described. I.E. if the enemy is debuffed to -50% mitigation, my 1000 damage attack would hit for 1500. If I then add 20% armor pen myself that enemy now has an effective -70% mitigation which causes my attack to deal 1700 damage - only a 13.33% damage increase.
Right, which is why you dont want to go much over 2200 arp, points are then better spent in power. But until that point, there is no better stat than armor pen.
Comments
He definitely has no data to back it
The post had a mix up between the Class Feature Storm Fury and Storm Spell. The previous message in the forum topic was asking a question about Storm Fury and I just put the wrong one in.
TO CLARIFY: I am a firm believer in Storm Spell, it is amazing and does great damage as I originally had it listed in the guide as doing so, it was a mis type on my account.
Actually you DID write that. It was a couple of pages back. Maybe you meant to type Storm Fury instead.
The second important aspect is that during cast you are immune to CC effects and take greatly reduced dmg (75~90%), which can make this spell a save-me button on PvP.
The second spell I would like to defend is the Shard. I agree with you, as a normal Encounter power it is really crappy since we need to position ourselves behind it to push it. But as the Tab ability it gains a new life, because we can cast it from afar and push everywhere we like it and it has a great range. Moreover it has a slightly changed dmg then : every time it rolls over an enemy it does X damage and knock it down (affects multiple targets) but when it explodes it does 2*X damage in an even bigger radius.
In my opinion both spell are to be considered.
Arp is so good? Even in PVE?
Unless ArP doesn't work with CWs for some reason (and I've seen nothing to suggest that), ArP is incredibly strong. The Fighter and Rogue forums did a lot of research to show it's in a lot of ways the best stat in the game. To summarize the best I can ArP can't reduce an enemy below 0% defenses by itself (i.e. if an enemy has 20% mitigation from defense, then ArP is capped at reducing defense by 20%), but it applies even if you have other sources of penetration (like plague fires, roe, etc) and it applies last. In other words, if you have a bunch of mitigation debuffs which reduces the defenses of the target from 20% to 0% without including your ArP, then your ArP will still apply reducing it to a negative value (capped at negative the starting mitigation value, -20% in this case).
I'm not 100% sure that's how it's working, but I do know people are seeing negative mitigation resulting in bonus damage by stacking ArP and mitigation debuffs. I'm starting to stack ArP now so I'll confirm it for myself soon.
I would love to see some solid data on the dungeon damage of Tenebrous Enchantments aswell.
Like someone running the same dungeon 3 times, with lesser/normal/greater enchants and post the result % dmg.
I planned to do it with lessers, but i cant get this stupid advanced combat tracker to work on my pc.
So if anyone has to much AD/Zen/3 different gearsets, it would be cool if he could do some serious testing on those enchantments
That doesn't make any sense. Why would Tenebrous enchantments provide less output in about an hour of constant trash pulls and AoEs, than on single target bursts of PvP?
Because they all proc at once, if their cooldown is off. fights in pvp happen a few seconds apart, so you frontload a ton of damage on a single enemy, then by the time you fight the next, your ICDs are off. In PvE its a more steady stream, so you're having combat time with the ICD's still ticking.
Anyways, I replaced my tenebrous with rank 7 darks, and my dps went up an astounding amount. They are cheaper too. Skip the tenebrous in my opinion.
I didn't know they had an internal cooldown.
I actually replaced mine with Darks as well, and did notice my dps going up by a good amount.
PVE-wise , PVP-wise or both?
Did you use lesser or greaters? I am using 6 greaters and i am doin way more damage. The internal cooldown is really nothing. 2-3 seconds.
Show some proof of this. I've only ever had 1 parse to look at with a GWF in my guild running 5 (normal) Tenebrous Enchantments. They accounted for just 3% of his total damage on the run. Greaters only add 50% to that so the total still would have been in the 4-5% range. Conversely, adding 5 ArP enchantments (lets say rank 7s) is worth 925 ArP, or around 8% penetration. That's worth about 8% extra damage if you are stacking Plague Fires and other mitigation debuffs.
PvE...T2 runs.
I had lessers. I also replaced them with rank 5 darks. With better enchants, a blue belt, it is possible to get close to the 2000arp and still have some slots available for Tenebrous. But there is no doubt that the dps increase with arp is there.
Is there a way to parse your damage? I am not aware of any mods for this game.
I will do on the next delve if my usual delve team is online. One of our Control Wizards runs full shadow weaver and radiants. I run 2 magelord/2 shadow weaver.
You can use ACT to parse a combat log file. Just type '/combatlog 1' in the game chat to start the log. Replace the 1 with a 0 to stop it. Once you're done import the file into ACT, find your name in the participants list, and look at outgoing damage to see the breakdown.
Edit - to be clear, it's not a mod or a plugin for the game. It's just a log parser. It does have the capability to be directed to an active log file and parse real time, but it's not necessary and that's not really what we're after anyway. Just log the run, parse it with ACT, and then show us the breakdown results.
This is untrue. 8% reduction in mitigation is actually a significantly greater damage increase than 8%, for the same reason that an 8% increase in damage mitigation is a much greater reduction in damage taken than 8%. Consider the following.
lets say, for the purposes of this example, you have an attack that hits for 1000 base. A mob has 30% damage reduction, so you hit that mob for 700. Easy enough. Now suppose you add 10% armor penetration. his mitigation is now, for the purposes of your attack, 20%. Now that 1000 hit actually does 800 damage to him. You have, with the addition of 10% armor penetration, gone from doing 700 damage to 800. In point of fact, that is a 14.3% increase in damage ([800-700]/700) and not a 10% as the raw stat would have you believe. This is, as i mentioned, the same reason that, even with the diminishing returns curve, defense offers a linear increase in time to live, point for point.
TL:DR armor pen is godly, so long as you have the other stats to support it. It blows tenebrous out of the water both on paper and in practice. Do not take tenebrous enchants.
Interesting if true. So what happens if their mitigation is lower? What if it is already 0% or less? It seems then that ArPen would give a 1% penetration to 1% increased damage?
Also for PVP Tenebrous enchants still blow it out of the water.
Yup, this is why Steal Time is a must during PvE content, it's sooooo good.
Mobs can go negative up to their default mitigation. i.e. if ia mob's natural damage resistance is 30%, it can go to -30%, but thats largely going to be impossible given the current gear in the game and the DR curve on armor pen. Not unreasonable to expect -5% or so though, if you've got decent armor penetration and plague fire. in that case, the damage you gain from arp is multiplicative.
Very interesting arguing. I hope the feedbacks, thanks you.
This is what i need to know. If for PVP Tenebrous is still better than arp enchantment. Not sure how to test this without a duel option
This is important but for the opposite reason that you suggest. I mentioned stacking other mitigation debuffs such as Plague Fires, RoE, etc that regardless of my ArP are putting enemies at negative values of mitigation. This actually creates the opposite affect and reduces the value of armor pen for the same reasons you described. I.E. if the enemy is debuffed to -50% mitigation, my 1000 damage attack would hit for 1500. If I then add 20% armor pen myself that enemy now has an effective -70% mitigation which causes my attack to deal 1700 damage - only a 13.33% damage increase.
Right, which is why you dont want to go much over 2200 arp, points are then better spent in power. But until that point, there is no better stat than armor pen.