There is nothing to win. They use open beta as a marketing ploy to sell items in a unfinished and untested game. People can choose to play or not, and to pay or not.
Yes but what positive benefit is there for you in calling it something other than a beta test? Really what benefit? People are turning their logic into pretzels to claim the game isn't in beta and for what?
Thanks for the feedback but this is common practice.
You might not have seen it before but it has been going on for years inside and outside of game development companies. There's always a first time for everybody to see something but that doesn't make it immoral or unheard of.
While the game is in Beta purchases are treated with the same care and respect they would if the game was fully released.
Greed is becoming a common practice, yes.
I wanna go back to being weird. I like being weird. Weird's all I got, oh, and my sweet style. -Maurice Moss, The IT Crowd
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terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
Actually the opposite is true. People are turning their logic into pretzels to defend that the game is in Beta.
Call it what you will, the game has been released and is making money. It has by every definition, gone "Gold". Calling it an Open Beta, or whatever doesn't detract from that fact.
Not really the game studio and producer are calling it Open Beta. I'm not seeing how thinking they are right is twisting ones logic. It is argueing against the people releasing the game that seems twisted. And there is NO BENEFIT to being right in arguing that it isn't open beta.
Actually, just because something has been done before (ie: cash shop in a beta) doesn't suddenly make it ok. The fact is that things like paid respecs are actually costing beta players money to essentially test the game. Immoral? Maybe not. Unethical? Almost definitely.
I agree. It's unethical to take money in an Open Beta. Simple as that.
Either you take money, and are full responsible for it, including every exploit or bug that decreases the value of the ingame value of the real money, or you have a free test area, where we can do what we want.
The decision to BAN people for exploits in an OPEN BETA is definitly unheard of before! So don't tell us this is a BETA any longer. You banned this people for messing around in a life game, falsely called "Open BETA".
If you take money, this is the real deal. Point.
If you take no money, make the shop testing with YOUR ingame money you hand out to the players, when this is still a BETA.
There is no in between.
Only fools believe that. Or unethical, moneygrabbing people.
Pick your choice.
.... and do not pay with your money in an OPEN BETA.
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clockwerkninjaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You have had to pay to play the beta test? I am playing it for free. I've paid for some items but I don't need those to play.
Well, I can forgive those who do not understand eclectic tastes,BUT, I in fact did pay to BETA TEST. I put my money, a considerable amount up to help in development. It made me feel good to do so. Now I find out that this is not a true BETA TEST and the diligent work of many talented testers will be overlooked and swept under in favor of pushing out this "soft launch".
Frankly, I am offended and I do not care if that makes sense to anyone but myself.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Quote Originally Posted by roents
It's an "open beta" that can't be wiped even in the midst of multiple economy destroying exploits. FUN
I in fact did pay to BETA TEST. I put my money, a considerable amount up to help in development. It made me feel good to do so. Now I find out that this is not a true BETA TEST and the diligent work of many talented testers will be overlooked and swept under in favor of pushing out this "soft launch".
Frankly, I am offended and I do not care if that makes sense to anyone but myself.
This entire thread is too funny, no wonder a lot of game companies do not like to have open betas.
You did NOT pay to beta test. You paid for virtual items and or services within a beta (or not) environment.
Fact is, anyone can play the game (be it beta or not) for free. You can say you 'paid to play' all you like, but it just is not so.
Sorry, but this fact is irrefutable, no matter how you want to dress it up.
That is yet to be decided.
There's obviously been some hefty issues which had to be resolved and as long as the team is not confident enough the bugs and exploits are removed the game will remain in Open Beta.
Beta's end when developers feel confident software is truly ready; not some arbitrary time period as some people on this forums believe.
The game will be in perpetual open beta for as long as it exists by that definition, as there will always be new possible exploits and bugs. The older the game gets, the more intersecting lines of code it has from different time periods, and the possibilities increase, and not decrease over time.
The error made was beginning to take money before beta was over, as this limits the options for actions that can be taken to resolve high impact issues, such as partial or full wipes, which make players alot more confident that the impact on the economy or game will be nil. This is much better than the -cant talk about it/secret squirrel/hush hush- atmosphere attempting to be cultivated about those issues, in regards to player retention and game replay value for new players after the fact.
So the issue isnt whether or not the game is in beta - its the combination of tagging it beta, but still taking money from players, which severely limits the companies ability to take actions that people expect to be taken in a "beta" when all hell breaks loose.
EDIT: Conversely, there is NO BENEFIT (lol) to calling it an Open Beta. Yet people like yourselves harangue on it endlessly as well.
This.
To paying customers, "beta" is a semantic adjective and nothing more. THey still expect to get what they paid for, regardless of what adjective the company uses to describe the state of the game.
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clockwerkninjaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
This entire thread is too funny, no wonder a lot of game companies do not like to have open betas.
You did NOT pay to beta test. You paid for virtual items and or services within a beta (or not) environment.
Fact is, anyone can play the game (be it beta or not) for free. You can say you 'paid to play' all you like, but it just is not so.
Sorry, but this fact is irrefutable, no matter how you want to dress it up.
Really? Because I took the founders pack items as some useless junk to say thanks for ponying up some money for us to use in development.. No amount of digital junk is worth money to me...Sorry.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Quote Originally Posted by roents
It's an "open beta" that can't be wiped even in the midst of multiple economy destroying exploits. FUN
Thanks for the feedback but this is common practice.
You might not have seen it before but it has been going on for years inside and outside of game development companies. There's always a first time for everybody to see something but that doesn't make it immoral or unheard of.
While the game is in Beta purchases are treated with the same care and respect they would if the game was fully released.
What do you consider a beta to be? Beta by definition is an unfinished prototype of a product.
Considering this product is available to everyone, its no longer a prototype.
Otherwise you may aswell call every MMORPG a beta product, seeing as they update, change and address issues on a regular basis until the product gets replaced or removed.
What difference is it gonna make when you decide to take away the beta tag from the game and mark it as released?
Beta's end when developers feel confident software is truly ready; not some arbitrary time period as some people on this forums believe.
Thats... actually the definition of arbitrary. I actually agree with this specific decision, but its 100% arbitrary. Meaning, it is based on the subjective evaluation of those involved with developing and publishing the game and not a set in stone universal system.
Just had to clear that one up! :P
To everyone else;
This is perfect world. If you have dealt with them in the past, none of this should be any sort of surprise. If you have not dealt with them, consider this a lesson learned.
Some of the games they publish are really great at their core, sans exploits etc.. I love the game of Neverwinter, and I suspect the devs and the community representatives do as well. But, the reality is, the publisher is perfect world. To anyone who has been in the MMO arena for a while, thats all they need to hear to know EXACTLY what to expect.
I play the game because I want the devs to see that little +1 player on the metrics. I want them to know that they have, imo, created a pretty fantastic game even under the "standards and requirements" that are undoubtedly required to be funded by perfect world. Are there issues with the game? Oh yeah! But the core game is just downright excellent to me. The foundation is there, and I just hope to see it come to a true and effective realization of the original dream. I want that for those who are actually working passionately on the game.
No perfect world game will ever get my money again though. I learned my lesson years ago, and its not a nice one to learn.
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ausdoerrtMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Sorry but you are clueless..I feel my consumer dollars are worth more respect that that. If you yourself do not require decent treatment from businesses you spend with, that is on you.
Define "decent treatment". I personally think that staying true to your word is "decent treatment". Like doing what you promise. In fact, I have a suspicion that if they did go back on their word and wiped, the whiners would've been berating them for lying. Damned if you do... fill in the rest.
Well, I can forgive those who do not understand eclectic tastes,BUT, I in fact did pay to BETA TEST. I put my money, a considerable amount up to help in development. It made me feel good to do so. Now I find out that this is not a true BETA TEST and the diligent work of many talented testers will be overlooked and swept under in favor of pushing out this "soft launch".
Sorry, may I correct you. Under your reasoning, you didn't pay to beta test, you seem to have simply "donated to developers" (even though really you were just getting shinies and early access). BUT, even if we take your reasoning, you're still not entitled to any more than the next guy.
But apparently you know better. Cause you and your employers are professionals.
I see that you've only joined recently so you might not know. But the moderators are long-time community members chosen by an open vote on the forums. It's a volunteer service, not employment, so your sarcasm is on you.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck...then it's a live game. Calling it anything else is pointless and just used for spin or marketing.
EDIT: Conversely, there is NO BENEFIT (lol) to calling it an Open Beta. Yet people like yourselves harangue on it endlessly as well.
Let's see, daily downtimes and patches, placeholder icons for items... Yeah it's Beta alright.
The benefit of calling it what it is is to remain realistic and call out people spreading false rumors.
Thanks for the feedback but this is common practice.
You might not have seen it before but it has been going on for years inside and outside of game development companies. There's always a first time for everybody to see something but that doesn't make it immoral or unheard of.
While the game is in Beta purchases are treated with the same care and respect they would if the game was fully released.
I dont feel its immoral or unheard of. I feel taking money AND calling it beta limits the company's options when they need to deal with high impact situations like the exploits that have been dealt with over the past few weeks.
Really? Because I took the founders pack items as some useless junk to say thanks for ponying up some money for us to use in development.. No amount of digital junk is worth money to me...Sorry.
No apology necessary. The fact that you 'feel' the items you purchased were 'digital junk' doesn't change anything.
You purchased a founders pack, not the right to play NW. The fact that anyone can play for free just makes my point that much more obvious. You did not pay to play and no argument or words can change that fact.
That is yet to be decided.
There's obviously been some hefty issues which had to be resolved and as long as the team is not confident enough the bugs and exploits are removed the game will remain in Open Beta.
Beta's end when developers feel confident software is truly ready; not some arbitrary time period as some people on this forums believe.
Typically though launch dates are semi-firm dates set by the producers and Open Beta periods tend to be back figured from those dates with the bulk of the testing being done during alpha and closed beta segments. OB in most cases is as much a stress test on server loads as it is fine tuning things such as instancing needs etc. This new paradigm of the Open Beta/Soft Launch allows for the illusion of "We'll release it when we're ready" when reality is that it's been launched and additional content is being held for another population grab cloaked under the label of "Release/Live Launch". Hello Rangers, Warlocks, Drow and the missing paragon paths.
You people realize that it has become a common practice for new games to charge for beta right? Not like PWE is the first company to do this and you don't even have to pay... (prices still suck)
No, beta always meant what it meant. People are trying to change the definition with no success.
No I think it is succeeding. This is not the only Open Beta I am in right now. They are taking money from players/testers as a means to reduce the need to take out loans and such.
Let's see crying and entitlement by the doomsquad big shock. :rolleyes:
I really wish folks on my ignore list would not show up in quotes, I've had quite enough verbal diarrhea from that lot, not a single thing they say amounts to a hill of beans anyway.
It's good that they are extending the OBT, I honestly think they should have kept in closed longer and just expanded the testing.
Open Beta is just a marketing ploy, this game has already released.
Not only marketing.
"Research & Experimentation Tax Credit"
Beta= Tax credit
Release =no Tax credit
So i expect the so called open beta to last for a long while.
Besides the money aspect:
If they **** up badly at least 50% of the player base defend them, because it is just beta.
"Beta Games are provided for testing on an "as is", "as available" basis and we make no warranty to you of any kind, express or implied. You understand and agree that playing Beta Games is at your own risk, that you know that the Beta Games may include known or unknown bugs, and that PWE has no obligations to you with respect to Beta Games, including without limitation any obligation to provide such games to you in the future at no charge."
You people realize that it has become a common practice for new games to charge for beta right? Not like PWE is the first company to do this and you don't even have to pay... (prices still suck)
That doesnt make it the right decision, as they are in effect limiting the actions they can take when high impact issues occur. Of course, money is more attractive to the bean counters who actually make the decisions.
Comments
Yes but what positive benefit is there for you in calling it something other than a beta test? Really what benefit? People are turning their logic into pretzels to claim the game isn't in beta and for what?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Greed is becoming a common practice, yes.
Not really the game studio and producer are calling it Open Beta. I'm not seeing how thinking they are right is twisting ones logic. It is argueing against the people releasing the game that seems twisted. And there is NO BENEFIT to being right in arguing that it isn't open beta.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I agree. It's unethical to take money in an Open Beta. Simple as that.
Either you take money, and are full responsible for it, including every exploit or bug that decreases the value of the ingame value of the real money, or you have a free test area, where we can do what we want.
The decision to BAN people for exploits in an OPEN BETA is definitly unheard of before! So don't tell us this is a BETA any longer. You banned this people for messing around in a life game, falsely called "Open BETA".
If you take money, this is the real deal. Point.
If you take no money, make the shop testing with YOUR ingame money you hand out to the players, when this is still a BETA.
There is no in between.
Only fools believe that. Or unethical, moneygrabbing people.
Pick your choice.
.... and do not pay with your money in an OPEN BETA.
Well, I can forgive those who do not understand eclectic tastes,BUT, I in fact did pay to BETA TEST. I put my money, a considerable amount up to help in development. It made me feel good to do so. Now I find out that this is not a true BETA TEST and the diligent work of many talented testers will be overlooked and swept under in favor of pushing out this "soft launch".
Frankly, I am offended and I do not care if that makes sense to anyone but myself.
Quote Originally Posted by roents
It's an "open beta" that can't be wiped even in the midst of multiple economy destroying exploits. FUN
This entire thread is too funny, no wonder a lot of game companies do not like to have open betas.
You did NOT pay to beta test. You paid for virtual items and or services within a beta (or not) environment.
Fact is, anyone can play the game (be it beta or not) for free. You can say you 'paid to play' all you like, but it just is not so.
Sorry, but this fact is irrefutable, no matter how you want to dress it up.
The game will be in perpetual open beta for as long as it exists by that definition, as there will always be new possible exploits and bugs. The older the game gets, the more intersecting lines of code it has from different time periods, and the possibilities increase, and not decrease over time.
The error made was beginning to take money before beta was over, as this limits the options for actions that can be taken to resolve high impact issues, such as partial or full wipes, which make players alot more confident that the impact on the economy or game will be nil. This is much better than the -cant talk about it/secret squirrel/hush hush- atmosphere attempting to be cultivated about those issues, in regards to player retention and game replay value for new players after the fact.
So the issue isnt whether or not the game is in beta - its the combination of tagging it beta, but still taking money from players, which severely limits the companies ability to take actions that people expect to be taken in a "beta" when all hell breaks loose.
This.
To paying customers, "beta" is a semantic adjective and nothing more. THey still expect to get what they paid for, regardless of what adjective the company uses to describe the state of the game.
Really? Because I took the founders pack items as some useless junk to say thanks for ponying up some money for us to use in development.. No amount of digital junk is worth money to me...Sorry.
Quote Originally Posted by roents
It's an "open beta" that can't be wiped even in the midst of multiple economy destroying exploits. FUN
What do you consider a beta to be? Beta by definition is an unfinished prototype of a product.
Considering this product is available to everyone, its no longer a prototype.
Otherwise you may aswell call every MMORPG a beta product, seeing as they update, change and address issues on a regular basis until the product gets replaced or removed.
What difference is it gonna make when you decide to take away the beta tag from the game and mark it as released?
Thats... actually the definition of arbitrary. I actually agree with this specific decision, but its 100% arbitrary. Meaning, it is based on the subjective evaluation of those involved with developing and publishing the game and not a set in stone universal system.
Just had to clear that one up! :P
To everyone else;
This is perfect world. If you have dealt with them in the past, none of this should be any sort of surprise. If you have not dealt with them, consider this a lesson learned.
Some of the games they publish are really great at their core, sans exploits etc.. I love the game of Neverwinter, and I suspect the devs and the community representatives do as well. But, the reality is, the publisher is perfect world. To anyone who has been in the MMO arena for a while, thats all they need to hear to know EXACTLY what to expect.
I play the game because I want the devs to see that little +1 player on the metrics. I want them to know that they have, imo, created a pretty fantastic game even under the "standards and requirements" that are undoubtedly required to be funded by perfect world. Are there issues with the game? Oh yeah! But the core game is just downright excellent to me. The foundation is there, and I just hope to see it come to a true and effective realization of the original dream. I want that for those who are actually working passionately on the game.
No perfect world game will ever get my money again though. I learned my lesson years ago, and its not a nice one to learn.
Sorry, may I correct you. Under your reasoning, you didn't pay to beta test, you seem to have simply "donated to developers" (even though really you were just getting shinies and early access). BUT, even if we take your reasoning, you're still not entitled to any more than the next guy.
I see that you've only joined recently so you might not know. But the moderators are long-time community members chosen by an open vote on the forums. It's a volunteer service, not employment, so your sarcasm is on you.
Let's see, daily downtimes and patches, placeholder icons for items... Yeah it's Beta alright.
The benefit of calling it what it is is to remain realistic and call out people spreading false rumors.
I dont feel its immoral or unheard of. I feel taking money AND calling it beta limits the company's options when they need to deal with high impact situations like the exploits that have been dealt with over the past few weeks.
I love how all the people argued this isn't an Open Beta and PWE just announced/affirmed it is and will continue to be the beta cash grab that it is.
No apology necessary. The fact that you 'feel' the items you purchased were 'digital junk' doesn't change anything.
You purchased a founders pack, not the right to play NW. The fact that anyone can play for free just makes my point that much more obvious. You did not pay to play and no argument or words can change that fact.
Typically though launch dates are semi-firm dates set by the producers and Open Beta periods tend to be back figured from those dates with the bulk of the testing being done during alpha and closed beta segments. OB in most cases is as much a stress test on server loads as it is fine tuning things such as instancing needs etc. This new paradigm of the Open Beta/Soft Launch allows for the illusion of "We'll release it when we're ready" when reality is that it's been launched and additional content is being held for another population grab cloaked under the label of "Release/Live Launch". Hello Rangers, Warlocks, Drow and the missing paragon paths.
I really wish folks on my ignore list would not show up in quotes, I've had quite enough verbal diarrhea from that lot, not a single thing they say amounts to a hill of beans anyway.
It's good that they are extending the OBT, I honestly think they should have kept in closed longer and just expanded the testing.
Not only marketing.
"Research & Experimentation Tax Credit"
Beta= Tax credit
Release =no Tax credit
So i expect the so called open beta to last for a long while.
Besides the money aspect:
If they **** up badly at least 50% of the player base defend them, because it is just beta.
"Beta Games are provided for testing on an "as is", "as available" basis and we make no warranty to you of any kind, express or implied. You understand and agree that playing Beta Games is at your own risk, that you know that the Beta Games may include known or unknown bugs, and that PWE has no obligations to you with respect to Beta Games, including without limitation any obligation to provide such games to you in the future at no charge."
Fixed!!!:p
That doesnt make it the right decision, as they are in effect limiting the actions they can take when high impact issues occur. Of course, money is more attractive to the bean counters who actually make the decisions.