cameirusMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 29Arc User
edited May 2013
as ADs are effectively a currency, and have a real world equivalent value, how can the devs delete legitimately earned ADs with no come back? surely thats effectively theft and fraud?
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dizznutzzMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited May 2013
As a founder and someone who has spent well over 400 USD on this game.... I concur 100% with the implemented fixes and commend Cryptic for doing the right thing.
you were aware of the exploit, because it happened in another game your company runs
you were aware of the exploit in this game since alpha testing, but did nothing to address it
you were aware of this exploit and the danger it posed to the game world economy but went ahead and promised no wipes
so when the inevitable happened and the economy is borked, your solution was roll back 7 hours, let those with equipment, mounts and cats keep their items gained through this exploit, ignore the damage to the economy and say oh and here's a little giftie for everyone's troubles.
so instead of doing the right thing, the correct thing, and wiping everything in order to get rid of the items, ad and zen that was gotten through an exploit, and resetting the economy....you took the easy way out and left the game unbalanced with no economy.
Well, I really hope you guys can get back my stacks of coins i lost due to not being able to log on and pray? the fact that u have to log on, and if you miss the window u lose ALL , well that just needs to be fixed.
what u need to do, is look at what everyones stacks where at the time of roll back and reset.. so i dont lose all those days of logging on and doing my prayer so i dont lose them.. Hmmmmm..
"Drive it like u stole it"
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skebbiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2013
Sadly, some of my friends and me were running Castle Never during the Auction House bug. All items and progression has ofcourse been wiped clean.
Is there any way that these items can be returned, or are they forever lost in the void of server rollbacks?
Other than this, I would like to say good job on repairing the damage. I hope you find a good way to compensate innocent players who suffered due to the problems
as ADs are effectively a currency, and have a real world equivalent value, how can the devs delete legitimately earned ADs with no come back? surely thats effectively theft and fraud?
They can delete it because it's their game, and is very tenuously tied to real world currency through zen. It's not like they're taking Euros or something from you. I personally lost a very lucky Heavy Inferno Nightmare from a lockbox, but I am sure that they will give it back, along with anyone else who had huge legitimate gains during that time, I'd hope. It doesn't seem hard to go through the logs to find the people that were hurt by the rollback like that either.
AD just doesn't have most of the economic characteristics of a currency in a serious enough sense for anything like this to constitute theft or fraud.
The economy was fried long before yesterday morning because of the myriad of other exploits. Are you seriously doing nothing about that?
As a result of your letting these other exploits go on so long, the Founders Packs are worth much less than the $700 you advertised. What are you doing about that?
I am a Lawyer in real life, but I try to roleplay an honorable character
Anyways sorry to all the people tonight who feel as though ive attacked them personally. Been a bad weekend with my dog dying and coming here to all the whining and stupid bickering just didnt help my mood lol. Dont like attacking people but if people wanna be jerks, thats what they will get from me.
you were aware of the exploit, because it happened in another game your company runs
you were aware of the exploit in this game since alpha testing, but did nothing to address it
you were aware of this exploit and the danger it posed to the game world economy but went ahead and promised no wipes
cya
If this is true, I would hope/suspect that someone employed would lose their job or get in some serious trouble, this is not a mistake some poor sap made, its Incompetence and should be delt with accordingly.
"Drive it like u stole it"
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jn2002dk1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I think this is just about as good as a response to the situation as they could provide. Rollback = all AD influx is gone, correct?
No because this exploit has been there since closed beta a long with other exploits too
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deadalonMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 20Arc User
edited May 2013
I have very limited time to play but managed just over 3 hours last night. All for nothing. If there is one thing that I hate then it is to feel my few spare mins I actually have going to waste.
I will not be playing this game any longer. Disgrace to see a game even in beta not have a way to revert the exploited things only.
Goodbye
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ashandradel2Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited May 2013
Thanks guys for sorting out the problem and doing it so quickly. All the information you supplied via Facebook etc was brilliant. Great game too :-)
I just started this game and I fear my only character I made will be destroyed. I know they have this "package" to give out the end of the week to say sorry but how are they going to give it to people they destroyed. Is every character on the account going to get one. Do I need to make sure all characters are remade to get this or will anyone who makes a character get this in the mail upon creation. Because I am heading out on vacation now and wont even be back until the end of the week. I been waiting since the servers came down yesterday to get back on to make sure my character was okay. because they went down in the middle of me playing. So this sorry package really should be going to someone like me.
The economy was fried long before yesterday morning because of the myriad of other exploits. Are you seriously doing nothing about that?
As a result of your letting these other exploits go on so long, the Founders Packs are worth much less than the $700 you advertised. What are you doing about that?
I am curious about this question as well. Also hope I will have access to my unclaimed AD from my founders pack although it doesnt really seem to add up to much anymore.
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haralorMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
The only right thing would be fixing the bugs and make a Char Wipe.
The economy suffered alot from other bugs/exploits before this exploit, i putt 60 Euro in this game and i regret like i do after i bought STO, i never will buy games from cryptic again.
The package they will give us will be nothing more then dyes or somthing useless.
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frakblarghMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 8Arc User
edited May 2013
The Cryptic team did what had to be done with respect to the exploit. That said, they needed to understand from the first line of code written forward that in a game economy based in Real Money Trading (RMT), all of that associated code should have been very carefully reviewed. It wasn't, obviously.
The question the customer base should be asking is, "How safe are the details of my transactions?", as in personally identifiable information such as credit card numbers. If it was that easy to exploit the RMT economy by (and I can see someone in Cryptic thinking, "No one would ever place a negative-value bid...") a dirt-simple exploit, then how much else that should be safe is, in fact, safe?
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gizm00Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited May 2013
It means player who did the exploit after 5:20 AM PDT will not get banned?
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bozseMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 12Arc User
No, it's not, because in America, the problem is that there isn't a log of all of these things. It isn't naive to believe that Cryptic is capable of fixing pretty much everything -- in fact, it's a fact! It's a matter of work for them and I'm sure some will make it through, but the obvious nature of the exploit in their log files will surely make it quite easy to in fact catch literally everyone who did this since launch, and punish them and take away stuff they added to the economy accordingly.
Much like money laundering, the AD went into several forms, all of which can be traced. The game is free, but at Cryptic, they are doing a job! It's easy to forget that at times, but I've got quite a bit of faith that quite literally all of this (except a few benefits probably accrued by randoms just due to being around these very few people who had good gear because of this) will be fixed pretty soon, haha.
Again I have to say, don't be that naive guy.
They would have to reverse every transaction that contained even 1 duped AD, they would have to remove gear of innocent people to do that, they would have to remove Zen from people and the transaction they did with said Zen, reverse respecs and so on.
Not only would it take an indefensible time financially it would upset just about every player still playing as I'm betting most will have at the very least 1 duped AD...
7 hour rollback won't help much when people have been doing this for atleast 2 days already. Can you do something about that maybe??? And what about people who did this with alt character and then transfered items/gold/zen/ad to other main char. ????
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cameirusMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 29Arc User
edited May 2013
I'm increasingly comming round to the idea of a total reset.
Wipe all characters and all items.
Give people back any zen they spent.
Start over.
At least with proper launches and character resets at end of beta you know what you are getting. This bull**** of "no wipes",....but oh wait we ****ed up, so we will have "roll backs" is jsut silly. just go with normal beta proceedure and have a total reset. and sort your **** out PWE.
So, what happens to the Zen that people made from this exploit? I have been helping to deliver my 3rd child for last 40 hours, I finally get home from hospital while the missus rests and want to play a little NWO? I cannot because of a massive exploit which I dont understand fully what transpired? Can anyone fill me in at all, and not give me the 'company' line?
So, what happens to the Zen that people made from this exploit? I have been helping to deliver my 3rd child for last 40 hours, I finally get home from hospital while the missus rests and want to play a little NWO? I cannot because of a massive exploit which I dont understand fully what transpired? Can anyone fill me in at all, and not give me the 'company' line?
too tired to give long answer. so short version. They had an exploit that ruined economy. Game went down for hours while they planned what to do. Now they finished with a roll back to yesterday and taking other steps against the exploited time before 24 hours ago
They would have to reverse every transaction that contained even 1 duped AD, they would have to remove gear of innocent people to do that, they would have to remove Zen from people and the transaction they did with said Zen, reverse respecs and so on.
Not only would it take an indefensible time financially it would upset just about every player still playing as I'm betting most will have at the very least 1 duped AD...
Again, others have said in this thread, it is not difficult to search log files, and the amount of individual attention they'd have to pay is small in this case because a very small number of people knew about it before the rollback time.
I mean in this case I feel like you are just defending a position because you are one of those people that doesn't like being wrong. I know there have been other exploits which were worse, but this time, it would greatly surprise me if they couldn't do something like, I don't know, not taking small amounts of AD from innocents? It's not that hard to imagine man, come on.
Thanks genryu20, appreciate that..been doing a bit of reading since I posted, this really doesn't look good does it?
Wow, I really have enjoyed this game for last 3 weeks, but I may have to re-evaluate if I am to spend any more money on this game or even play it
What a shame a minority can do soooo much damage to the wider community. Bugger!
I can understand why the exchange and auction are down, but when will be able to check the Astral diamonds and Zen balances in the exchange and if items/bids are still listed in the auction house?
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bmgropeyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 12Arc User
edited May 2013
Most people who abused this before the 7 hour rollback filtered it through different sources making the actual process of tracking it down a very daunting and time consuming process, one I doubt will be carried out considering multiple sources are already reporting that they still have millions of ill gotten AD parked on intact mules.
The economy is trashed, while they did a rollback to a time when it wasn't in meltdown it's so far gone that now it can't be undone. Exploitative behavior has been a norm since the games release and Cryptic/PWE have taken few steps to actually curb or minimize the impact of the behavior. While banning the players who abused it is one step they leave the damage in the economy.
Imagine if a counterfeiter printed off a trillion dollars in cash and then used it all over the place to buy everything. The government gets wind of it and then takes him to jail, but leaves the majority of his counterfeit currency out in the economy, it makes everyone's effort, time, and dollars worth a less.
Since this has been in since day 1 the damage is truly irreparable short of a complete wipe. They've stated that won't happen, so for me that signals the deathknell of the game. I have asked for a refund (doubt I will get it), but I'm done playing this game as it has allowed cheaters to prosper on an unprecedented scale. I can't think of another game that has basically allowed this level of rampant exploiting to go unchecked and rewarded.
Thanks cryptic/pwe for showing us the new way! cheaters always win!
Comments
Thank you!
you were aware of the exploit, because it happened in another game your company runs
you were aware of the exploit in this game since alpha testing, but did nothing to address it
you were aware of this exploit and the danger it posed to the game world economy but went ahead and promised no wipes
so when the inevitable happened and the economy is borked, your solution was roll back 7 hours, let those with equipment, mounts and cats keep their items gained through this exploit, ignore the damage to the economy and say oh and here's a little giftie for everyone's troubles.
so instead of doing the right thing, the correct thing, and wiping everything in order to get rid of the items, ad and zen that was gotten through an exploit, and resetting the economy....you took the easy way out and left the game unbalanced with no economy.
well done, truly stellar job
cya
what u need to do, is look at what everyones stacks where at the time of roll back and reset.. so i dont lose all those days of logging on and doing my prayer so i dont lose them.. Hmmmmm..
Is there any way that these items can be returned, or are they forever lost in the void of server rollbacks?
Other than this, I would like to say good job on repairing the damage. I hope you find a good way to compensate innocent players who suffered due to the problems
They can delete it because it's their game, and is very tenuously tied to real world currency through zen. It's not like they're taking Euros or something from you. I personally lost a very lucky Heavy Inferno Nightmare from a lockbox, but I am sure that they will give it back, along with anyone else who had huge legitimate gains during that time, I'd hope. It doesn't seem hard to go through the logs to find the people that were hurt by the rollback like that either.
AD just doesn't have most of the economic characteristics of a currency in a serious enough sense for anything like this to constitute theft or fraud.
As a result of your letting these other exploits go on so long, the Founders Packs are worth much less than the $700 you advertised. What are you doing about that?
If this is true, I would hope/suspect that someone employed would lose their job or get in some serious trouble, this is not a mistake some poor sap made, its Incompetence and should be delt with accordingly.
I will not be playing this game any longer. Disgrace to see a game even in beta not have a way to revert the exploited things only.
Goodbye
And sadly, they are putting a band-aid on a wound that needs 100 stiches.
I am curious about this question as well. Also hope I will have access to my unclaimed AD from my founders pack although it doesnt really seem to add up to much anymore.
The economy suffered alot from other bugs/exploits before this exploit, i putt 60 Euro in this game and i regret like i do after i bought STO, i never will buy games from cryptic again.
The package they will give us will be nothing more then dyes or somthing useless.
The question the customer base should be asking is, "How safe are the details of my transactions?", as in personally identifiable information such as credit card numbers. If it was that easy to exploit the RMT economy by (and I can see someone in Cryptic thinking, "No one would ever place a negative-value bid...") a dirt-simple exploit, then how much else that should be safe is, in fact, safe?
Again I have to say, don't be that naive guy.
They would have to reverse every transaction that contained even 1 duped AD, they would have to remove gear of innocent people to do that, they would have to remove Zen from people and the transaction they did with said Zen, reverse respecs and so on.
Not only would it take an indefensible time financially it would upset just about every player still playing as I'm betting most will have at the very least 1 duped AD...
Wipe all characters and all items.
Give people back any zen they spent.
Start over.
At least with proper launches and character resets at end of beta you know what you are getting. This bull**** of "no wipes",....but oh wait we ****ed up, so we will have "roll backs" is jsut silly. just go with normal beta proceedure and have a total reset. and sort your **** out PWE.
[SIGPIC]Captain Electric and the Sapien Spider[/SIGPIC]
"YES, PLEASE"
Vote YES for the Foundry in Champions Online.
@Captain-Electric | CoH/Virtue veteran | Proud new Champion
too tired to give long answer. so short version. They had an exploit that ruined economy. Game went down for hours while they planned what to do. Now they finished with a roll back to yesterday and taking other steps against the exploited time before 24 hours ago
Again, others have said in this thread, it is not difficult to search log files, and the amount of individual attention they'd have to pay is small in this case because a very small number of people knew about it before the rollback time.
I mean in this case I feel like you are just defending a position because you are one of those people that doesn't like being wrong. I know there have been other exploits which were worse, but this time, it would greatly surprise me if they couldn't do something like, I don't know, not taking small amounts of AD from innocents? It's not that hard to imagine man, come on.
Wow, I really have enjoyed this game for last 3 weeks, but I may have to re-evaluate if I am to spend any more money on this game or even play it
What a shame a minority can do soooo much damage to the wider community. Bugger!
The economy is trashed, while they did a rollback to a time when it wasn't in meltdown it's so far gone that now it can't be undone. Exploitative behavior has been a norm since the games release and Cryptic/PWE have taken few steps to actually curb or minimize the impact of the behavior. While banning the players who abused it is one step they leave the damage in the economy.
Imagine if a counterfeiter printed off a trillion dollars in cash and then used it all over the place to buy everything. The government gets wind of it and then takes him to jail, but leaves the majority of his counterfeit currency out in the economy, it makes everyone's effort, time, and dollars worth a less.
Since this has been in since day 1 the damage is truly irreparable short of a complete wipe. They've stated that won't happen, so for me that signals the deathknell of the game. I have asked for a refund (doubt I will get it), but I'm done playing this game as it has allowed cheaters to prosper on an unprecedented scale. I can't think of another game that has basically allowed this level of rampant exploiting to go unchecked and rewarded.
Thanks cryptic/pwe for showing us the new way! cheaters always win!
However, I do completely agree with bmgropey.